UKC

Some folk may have missed this useful BMC article and the latest NT advice (linked):

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/three-peaks-challenge-controlling-the-chaos-in-was...

In reply to Offwidth:

Sad.

I was depressed to see that someone had left a banana skin on top of Mam Tor yesterday. This seems many orders of magnitute worse.

In reply to Offwidth:

What circus. Not a great banner of things. But surely this ridiculous 'charidee' procession needs to be kiboshed.

D

In reply to Offwidth:

Holy shit, that is a battlecry bound to summon even the weakest of UKC anti-bumbly high and haughty self-righteous brethren.

Strap in, and enjoy the ride....

In reply to Offwidth:

That heavy traffic picture has only one car that's actually in use doesn't it? The rest look to be parked.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:



They were all airlifted in.

D

In reply to Dauphin:

Or they arrived over the course of a few hours, and there was never heavy traffic.

In reply to ThunderCat:



This is just one mountain in the 3PC though Wasdale is unique in the sense that it is often done at night and is the middle of the 3 regardless of which way you do it!

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Nah, the black van in the middle of them appears to have a driver, and to be *attempting* to travel in the opposite direction....

And it's daylight, so clearly not the peak of the rush hour.

In reply to Carolyn:

2 vehicles driving on the same road then, I take it all back.

In reply to Offwidth:

Like I said in another thread: if we could just get the charities' default option to be some kind of large-scale cycle ride, a coast to coast perhaps, that would be a huge improvement in lots of ways.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

AND that white hire van pointing the same way as the yellow car can't be parked either. That's three vehicles trying to move, it's almost as bad as the M25

To be fair, it is utter chaos at times...

In reply to Carolyn:

The UK is the worst country I've ever driven in, it's chaos everywhere at times, and around where I live it's chaos most of the time. I suspect the traffic chaos in Wasdale is for a limited time only.

Although my point was more that the BMC article is being a bit sneaky, I'm sure I wasn't the only one who initially thought I was looking at a traffic jam!

In reply to Offwidth:



I hear that the BMC and Mountain Training are going to be at Wasdale over the August Bank Holiday to try to spread the good word and encourage some responsibility and offer advice. Maybe some folks will listen.

In reply to andyathome:

I have to say that these sort of "challenges" get on my tits even without the mass crowds and organized litter. Why don't they just bath in baked beans for a week?

In reply to andyathome:

Possibly but telling the people on the ground how to behave is the job of the organisers. They would probably have a better impact working with them.

I think the picture in the article might be a bit misleading. The date on it is October, and the weekend of the wasdale show. Not many people would be doing the three peaks by that time of year.
Also the bmc do come across as being against, but I seem to remember them last year telling everyone about a brilliant new app available for people wanting to do the Yorkshire three peaks.
The national three peaks has it's problems / issues, but so does pretty much every other mountain challenge event / fell race of which there is an endless list. The national is just by far the most popular with the issues therefore magnified.

In reply to alan barnes:




It's a little bit more complex that you imply. The yorkshire challenge is more sustainable by a long stretch and a worthy alternative to the N3P because of this, not to mention an actual walking challenge.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Stop driving then. You ARE the chaos.

In reply to Offwidth:

Why not close the road for the worst weekends or maybe just at night at the worst weekends - the extra time involved might make people think a bit more and spread the load to approaches from other valleys (Borrowdale, Langdale).

In reply to Phil1919:

I'm part of it.

In reply to Michael Hood:
I'd be in favour of that (with a pass for locals) and it may well come to something drastic like that in the end. As for the photo, sure its just 'stock' showing how busy things get in the day at times but some of the smart arses above might explain just how they would accurately portray the noise, litter, toilet issues and other problems occuring in the middle of the night.

In reply to Michael Hood:

Navigationally speaking, doing Scafell from Wasdale is easier and safer compared to the other options.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

Navigationally speaking its safer to do the 3 peaks over two days and walk in the daylight.

In reply to Offwidth:


I agree.

In reply to Offwidth:

If I'm one of the smart arses (keep it civil Offwidth, no need to throw mud), then I don't think it's okay to produce a misleading article, just because you haven't got the resources to produce a proper one. What is the scale of the problem? I'm still no closer to understanding. Bad traffic on a few weekends is not really a major problem compared to many areas that affect far more people, and my local crags, Shipley Glen, Baildon Bank and Ilkley, suffer a lot from litter and vandalism. How does that compare? I am interested to know, but this article is hard to take seriously.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Being busy and being abused are two different things. Wasdale, scafell, Nevis and snowdon are being abused by SOME of these 'do-gooders'.

Jamie Bankhead posted a picture the other day on Facebook of a 'toilet' on the tourist track up Ben Nevis. It's safe to say that it was predominantly, though not exclusively, through the N3PC. The same sort of behaviour is endemic on all three mountains.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

What would you count as abuse? Obviously glow sticks would count, but that's just one incident, and litter is a problem everywhere. Is the litter really disproportionate to numbers, or is this just a snobbery, picking on visitors who aren't 'proper'? I await a well researched article.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Have you been to Wasdale during the main 3 peaks season?

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
The 3Ps also suffer from general litter and vandalism. What the Yorkshire urban crags don't get is minibuses of 'charity heros' turning up in the middle of the night, speeding through villages, waking everyone up, crapping everywhere etc. I can forgive the dissafected urban youth but not so easily industrial scale endeavours of the middle class mislabelled as good deeds. The research has been done locally and as a result of various local, groups getting mobiliased the charities involved have been asked to modify their processes slightly (with support from the BMC) ; it's hardly a big ask.

In reply to Offwidth:

I've not been there but am told it's not cars that are the problem but coaches and mini-busses.

The simple solution would be to close the road and just have a few 'authorised' shuttle busses running up and down.

In reply to Pagan:

No, and a lot of other people don't, which means if there is a real obvious problem, and it needs to be widely understood, it should be easy enough to produce a good article about it.

In reply to DancingOnRock:

Why? In the daylight sure but in the early hours to facilitate some mad 24 hr rush around GB?

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:


I don't get what you are trying to say? The article is highlighting the problem with the challenge as a whole. It's not about 'snobbery' or what's 'proper' it's about being a responsible fund raiser and looking after someone else's back yard when you trample through it at night.

In reply to Offwidth:

It would be interesting to know how it compares to the frequency of late night noise a lot of others have to endure, isn't that the important thing, or are the Lakes residents afforded special status? If there is research, maybe the BMC article could link to this research.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

It needs to show there is a problem with 3 peakers, and why we should treat this as a special case. It mentions one incident of glow sticks, shows a picture of parked vehicles and uses the caption 'heavy traffic'. If I behave well, and walk up Scafell, does it matter if I'm sponsored or not, and why should I be stigmatised because of others?

In reply to Michael Hood:

Good idea, at least people can drive out of Borrowdale and Langdale, but Wasdale is a dead end.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
If locals anywhere produce a campaign to deal with real issues affecting them linked to something stupid and solvable like the side-affects of poorly designed charity fundraising (as opposed to the more difficult to solve general public bad behaviour), I'll support that as well. I also do what I can to deal with the more intractable public problems and take part in crag clean-ups in Yorkshire and the Peak and even Yosemite and I try to pack out (up to a carrier bag) of litter that I find at any crag.

I've re-read that article and still cant see any obvious problem with it. The photo says heavy traffic in Wasdale and the article says that this is a seperate daytime issue.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Did you actually read the rest of the article?!

Maybe you should take a trip out to Wasdale and see it for yourself - until then maybe you should shut up.

On my last two trips up to Scafell (1 this year, 1 last year) I've picked up more rubbish than on any of my other days out in the Lakes combined, which include plenty of days out in popular tourist hotspots (Langdale, Borrowdale etc) - maybe you can explain why that happens if it's nothing to do with 3 peakers?

In reply to Pagan:

Why would I try to explain it has nothing to do with 3 peakers?

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
What else are all these people doing coming here in the middle of the night (and not elsewhere).

In reply to Offwidth:

I imagine they're 3 peakers. Next question.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
......and the litter and toilet material that wasnt there the previous evening and the noise they made getting there and leaving again, and the extra midnight pressure on mountain rescue and the emergency services from unnecessary racing up and down mountains in the dark?

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:


It's just one example of an approach that has been used by a number of groups over several years. I don't imagine anyone's made a formal record of incidents, but I first heard of groups marking the path with glow sticks at least 5 years ago.

In reply to Offwidth:

Most likely 3 peakers. If the evidence is so easy to come by, present it? Obviously it's not a good idea to form strong opinions and support road closures on the basis of a couple of opinions given on here is it?

In reply to Offwidth:


A bit like the unnecessary pressure on MR from winter climbers stuck in the dark or the unnecessary pressure on the environment from hordes wearing out the grass at Stanage. You and I may think these challenges nonsense but we are hardly in a position to tell people what to do. The report you link sounds like all the right things are being done such as improving infrastructure in response to increased demand.

In reply to Offwidth:


No. Just at the times that the 3peakers are going to be causing a nuisance. It's going to happen so the best course of action is to manage it properly.

The shuttle busses could be paid for by the charities.

It would make the whole thing a lot smoother and two or three busses running up and down a clear road would cause a lot less noise and bother than the current jam that occurs.

In reply to DancingOnRock: its not just a Wasdale problem though, the traffic has to get there and the race to a pretty arbritary 24 hour deadline with a lot of travel on our roads leaves wider issues. The growing efforts to pursuade charity umbrella organisations and trip facilitater groups to simply avoid early hour ascents and include a fixed travel time makes way more sense.

In reply to MG:

If charity organised events were causing significant extra pressure on winter rescues I'd be arguing to look at that as well. As for Stanage a loss of a bit of grass is a small price to pay for so much low impact enjoyment.

In reply to Offwidth:


You are basically saying what you find enjoyable is just fine but what others find enjoyable isn't. Three-peakers could turn round and say some noise and a bit of litter is a small price to pay for large sums raised for charity. The solution is what is being planned (communication and facilities), not to sneer at and denigrate those involved.

In reply to MG:
Well most others seem to think different to the philosophical arguments on a pinhead sadly all too common here and the charities are pretty sesnsitive to that. They dont want their names attached to such terrible group behaviour and are moving to avoid it.

I'm actually saying that I think everyone should behave responsibly in considering the potential consequencies of their enjoyment but many individuals clearly don't care and yet as individuals its not so easy to tackle that other than cleaning up afterwards.

In reply to Offwidth:
With Stanage it isn't "..a bit of grass" its a massive polishing and erosion that has changed the nature of routes. The huge human impact also impacts on bird nesting and other wildlife.
Also factor in the large quantity of human waste that gets deposited at the crag or in the case of the three peaks into the water table then you have an issue...

"There have been a number of cases of hikers and campers developing giardiasis after drinking contaminated water from streams and lakes. You should always avoid drinking untreated water (water that hasn't been boiled or chemically treated) even if it looks clean"

from http://www.cumbriapartnership.nhs.uk/api/condition/giardiasis

In reply to muppetfilter:
Nonsense. Most polish at stanage came from the use of nailed boots half a century ago an unfortunate habit soon stopped by peer pressure. In current terms polish is again more of an irresponsible group issue with dirty shoes from scheduled use in damp conditions. The worst erosion in the area is arguably on the top path hardly used by climbers and as for litter, climbers seem better to me than most other users (of one of the most used areas of our most used national park) in that some often take others litter home and given this and the regular volunteer clean-ups they almost certainly clear more mess overall than they make. Climbers also help publisise and police the real identified conservation issues there, like the Ring Ousels.

In reply to Offwidth:

Four legs good, two legs bad.

In reply to Offwidth:

Not all 3 Peakers are doing it as part of an organised charity gig.

Someone I know did it with her husband:

Train from Nottingham to Fort William, run up & down Ben Nevis.

Cycle from Fort William to The Lake District, run up & down Scafell Pike.

Cycle from the Lake District to Snowdonia, run up & down Snowdon.

Cycle from Snowdonia to Nottingham.

6 days door to door. Nice relaxing low impact week.

In reply to Chris Harris:

I have no issue with people like that. My intention is to support the locals in their genuine concerns with charity linked organised groups racing to complete in 24 hours and as such coming in and out at night and leaving a mess. Also to encourage everyone to respect the environment (not litter, crap on the mountain make a racket where people live in the middle of the night etc)

In reply to Offwidth:

Indeed, it's not just a car full of mates (4 or 5 people) it's buses full (15-17 people in each bus) at a time. I've seen groups of 3x17 seat buses piling out at PyP. A lot of these groups are dis-organised at best and downright disrespectful and dangerous at worst.

In reply to Offwidth: When I worked at what was originally British Gas Research, BG used to do an annual 3 peaks charity challenge, but they didn't use Ben Nevis, Scafell Pikes & Snowdon, they used 3 other challenging peaks in Scotland, Lake District & Wales.

Much better approach, maybe not the same cachet but it would be good if other charity events could emulate it.

As said above, the problem is not 3 peaks charity events in themselves, it's getting badly organised groups of well meaning people who have no mountain experience or appreciation. More education of correct mountain behaviour before they start would help.

In reply to MG:

Why not just give the money to charity and stay the f*ck off the mountains?

D

In reply to Offwidth: hopefully in the future 3 peaking will be as socially unacceptable as smoking or drink driving

In reply to Dauphin:



Indeed. Same goes for people chucking themselves out of planes to raise money.

In reply to Dauphin:

Or indeed do something useful like clearing up elderly peoples' gardens?