This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Just thinking how useful and amazing modern technology CAN be when a criminal can (hopefully) be identified by things like voice recognition etc:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/24/security-services-close-identi...
I just hope they do get him and others but that, if they do, they are not dealt with leniently.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/24/security-services-close-identi...
I just hope they do get him and others but that, if they do, they are not dealt with leniently.
In reply to mypyrex:
Funny they deploy such efforts now, it might have been better simply not to have trained these people in the first place? Just a thought.
Funny they deploy such efforts now, it might have been better simply not to have trained these people in the first place? Just a thought.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Easy to be wise after the event but in this case it is very unlikely that the murderer of James Foley was trained by UK/USA etc
Easy to be wise after the event but in this case it is very unlikely that the murderer of James Foley was trained by UK/USA etc
In reply to atrendall:
Come on now...let's not let common sense stand in the way of a good old UKC broad brush rant about "them"!!!!
Come on now...let's not let common sense stand in the way of a good old UKC broad brush rant about "them"!!!!
In reply to Dauphin:
The unspecified "they" that people refer to usually in broad brush statements often verging on conspiracy theory, covering anyone from the Armed Forces or police, MI5/6, the Gevernmemt or any politicians, or any non-people, parts of the establishment, often spanning decades as if it is the same "they" then and now.....
The unspecified "they" that people refer to usually in broad brush statements often verging on conspiracy theory, covering anyone from the Armed Forces or police, MI5/6, the Gevernmemt or any politicians, or any non-people, parts of the establishment, often spanning decades as if it is the same "they" then and now.....
Post edited at 19:08
In reply to atrendall:
ISIS which then became IS was considered to be "good jihadists" in the war against Assad. It included quite a few muslim mercenaries from Britain, Belgium etc. so although no lists of names are openly available (that would make picking them up easier, wouldn't it?) they could well have been at some point. When that first long line of brand new white Toyotas headed from Syria into Iraq it was, apparently, able to do so without being detected by all the US and NATO satellites and drones, funny don't you think?
ISIS which then became IS was considered to be "good jihadists" in the war against Assad. It included quite a few muslim mercenaries from Britain, Belgium etc. so although no lists of names are openly available (that would make picking them up easier, wouldn't it?) they could well have been at some point. When that first long line of brand new white Toyotas headed from Syria into Iraq it was, apparently, able to do so without being detected by all the US and NATO satellites and drones, funny don't you think?
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
This was predicted a good while ago. There is a CIA redcell memo? from mid to late 2000's acknowledging that their would be a rise in Sunni Terrorism in response to the perceived greater influence of Iran and Iraq government turning Shia - and how to capitalize upon it. One of the factors for the war in Syria (S.A. & Gulf Arabs dont want to take on Iran directly) and the now Baathists in northern Iraq joining up with the pointy finger crew to establish IS. Who trained them, well that war in Syria has been going for 3 years now and has plenty of outside cheerleaders.
D
This was predicted a good while ago. There is a CIA redcell memo? from mid to late 2000's acknowledging that their would be a rise in Sunni Terrorism in response to the perceived greater influence of Iran and Iraq government turning Shia - and how to capitalize upon it. One of the factors for the war in Syria (S.A. & Gulf Arabs dont want to take on Iran directly) and the now Baathists in northern Iraq joining up with the pointy finger crew to establish IS. Who trained them, well that war in Syria has been going for 3 years now and has plenty of outside cheerleaders.
D
In reply to Bruce Hooker: FFS a commercial aircraft disappeared a few months ago and still hasn't been located. You conspiracy theorists have a vastly over inflated idea of what intelligence agencies actually know, or what their technology can do.
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
Chances are there are people on the ground in a reconaisance role..its a large geographic area so seeing movement of artillery etc will be important.....on the ground though don't overestimate what is possible though. Guiding airstrikes and moving on quickly will be the order of the day but isis will have their own forward operating units so there will be a few exchanges for sure....
> (In reply to mypyrex)
>
> You think they weren't there already,even before Foley was executed??
>
> You think they weren't there already,even before Foley was executed??
Chances are there are people on the ground in a reconaisance role..its a large geographic area so seeing movement of artillery etc will be important.....on the ground though don't overestimate what is possible though. Guiding airstrikes and moving on quickly will be the order of the day but isis will have their own forward operating units so there will be a few exchanges for sure....
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
FFS (b) what has an airliner gone missing in the ocean got to do with watching a convoy crossing what must be the most observed area in the world? They can follow a single vehicle in the streets of Gaza to give the Israelis target information to hit named individuals but they can't see the convoy we all saw on our TV screens? How do you buy and ship to Syria (in the middle of a civil war in case you forgot) a convoy of spanking new Toyotas without the intelligence being available to the biggest spy network in the world for a start?
Calling all this a "conspiracy theory" in front of the daily evidence we see on the TV screens is just too weak, you'll have to do better I'm afraid.
FFS (b) what has an airliner gone missing in the ocean got to do with watching a convoy crossing what must be the most observed area in the world? They can follow a single vehicle in the streets of Gaza to give the Israelis target information to hit named individuals but they can't see the convoy we all saw on our TV screens? How do you buy and ship to Syria (in the middle of a civil war in case you forgot) a convoy of spanking new Toyotas without the intelligence being available to the biggest spy network in the world for a start?
Calling all this a "conspiracy theory" in front of the daily evidence we see on the TV screens is just too weak, you'll have to do better I'm afraid.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
New Toyotas? There are rather a lot of a Land Cruisers around, you know. If you think every vehicle movement in Syria is monitored, I think you are delusional.
New Toyotas? There are rather a lot of a Land Cruisers around, you know. If you think every vehicle movement in Syria is monitored, I think you are delusional.
In reply to MG:
No, but moving fast, and invisibly apparently, significant ordnance and supplies across hundreds of miles of open country then attacking and de-routing the official Iraqi army may well do. They now own oil fields and draw revenue from numerous towns, don't you think it may take a little more know-how that murdering an unarmed reporter?
> Does beheading someone need training anyway? Do 'they' have that expertise?
No, but moving fast, and invisibly apparently, significant ordnance and supplies across hundreds of miles of open country then attacking and de-routing the official Iraqi army may well do. They now own oil fields and draw revenue from numerous towns, don't you think it may take a little more know-how that murdering an unarmed reporter?
Post edited at 20:49
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
They can follow a single vehicle in the streets of Gaza to give the Israelis target information to hit named individuals
'They'.?
They can follow a single vehicle in the streets of Gaza to give the Israelis target information to hit named individuals
'They'.?
In reply to MG:
Maybe you telly is on the blink, it's not just one new Toyota. Have a look on even the BBC web site if you missed it. It was the initial push that made ISIS famous I'm talking about.
Maybe you telly is on the blink, it's not just one new Toyota. Have a look on even the BBC web site if you missed it. It was the initial push that made ISIS famous I'm talking about.
In reply to MG:
"They" here is the USA, the ones who have satellites up there. You may have heard of this when Libya was being reduced to rubble, which it still is by the way.
"They" here is the USA, the ones who have satellites up there. You may have heard of this when Libya was being reduced to rubble, which it still is by the way.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
What are you saying? That 'they' supplied a convoy of Land Cruisers and tuned a blind eye as they crossed into Iraq so it would be destabilised?
Land cruisers are the obvious and widely available means on transport in the area and pretty unremarkable.
What are you saying? That 'they' supplied a convoy of Land Cruisers and tuned a blind eye as they crossed into Iraq so it would be destabilised?
Land cruisers are the obvious and widely available means on transport in the area and pretty unremarkable.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
I think you have been watching too many movies. Israel have drones which can follow targets in real time, no need for satellite information from the US, which in any case can't do that.
I think you have been watching too many movies. Israel have drones which can follow targets in real time, no need for satellite information from the US, which in any case can't do that.
Post edited at 20:52
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
The West have never considered ISIS to be "good jihadists" in the war against Assad.
It included quite a few muslim mercenaries from Britain, Belgium etc. so although no lists of names are openly available (that would make picking them up easier, wouldn't it?) they could well have been at some point.
Yes a list would be handy wouldn't it.
When that first long line of brand new white Toyotas headed from Syria into Iraq it was, apparently, able to do so without being detected by all the US and NATO satellites and drones, funny don't you think?
Not sure what you mean about the toyotas?
> ISIS which then became IS was considered to be "good jihadists" in the war against Assad.
The West have never considered ISIS to be "good jihadists" in the war against Assad.
It included quite a few muslim mercenaries from Britain, Belgium etc. so although no lists of names are openly available (that would make picking them up easier, wouldn't it?) they could well have been at some point.
Yes a list would be handy wouldn't it.
When that first long line of brand new white Toyotas headed from Syria into Iraq it was, apparently, able to do so without being detected by all the US and NATO satellites and drones, funny don't you think?
Not sure what you mean about the toyotas?
In reply to Bruce Hooker: It's ironic that you choose to disbelieve anything the US says, UNLESS they are bragging about their intelligence and military capabilities, in which you believe every word.
In reply to MG:
No, but they must have traced it, maybe didn't realise the implication, or maybe they did, it takes the heat off the Israelis in Gaza, who knows?
What I did say is that if this group hadn't been encouraged when they were fighting Assad they may not have killed this reporter - they kidnapped him in Syria, didn't they?
It's nothing new, they financed and encouraged the movements that became El Qaeda, if they hadn't done that those planes would't have hit the World Trade Centre perhaps. The movements they encouraged and armed in Libya are now reeking havoc all over Saharan Africa, a good part of the French Army has been sent out there to fight them... It's easier to start things off than clear up the mess afterwards.
> What are you saying? That 'they' supplied a convoy of Land Cruisers and tuned a blind eye as they crossed into Iraq so it would be destabilised?
No, but they must have traced it, maybe didn't realise the implication, or maybe they did, it takes the heat off the Israelis in Gaza, who knows?
What I did say is that if this group hadn't been encouraged when they were fighting Assad they may not have killed this reporter - they kidnapped him in Syria, didn't they?
It's nothing new, they financed and encouraged the movements that became El Qaeda, if they hadn't done that those planes would't have hit the World Trade Centre perhaps. The movements they encouraged and armed in Libya are now reeking havoc all over Saharan Africa, a good part of the French Army has been sent out there to fight them... It's easier to start things off than clear up the mess afterwards.
In reply to off-duty:
When IS started moving from Syria, maybe because the Syrian army is winning the civil war, they haven't crumbled as predicted, this move, which I say must have been known, could have led to a more rapid reaction which would have saved a lot of deaths in Iraq. Unless, of course, it's part of a wider strategy.
> Not sure what you mean about the toyotas?
When IS started moving from Syria, maybe because the Syrian army is winning the civil war, they haven't crumbled as predicted, this move, which I say must have been known, could have led to a more rapid reaction which would have saved a lot of deaths in Iraq. Unless, of course, it's part of a wider strategy.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
So let me see if I have Bruce's latest conspiracy theory correct.... the USA turned a blind eye to IS/ISIS to let them rampage through Iraq, rape, crucify and behead people simply to take the heat off the Israelis.
Far fetched or will it turn out to be one of those conspiracy theories that turns out to be true???
Stop Press... according to Bruce it could be part of a wider strategy.
So let me see if I have Bruce's latest conspiracy theory correct.... the USA turned a blind eye to IS/ISIS to let them rampage through Iraq, rape, crucify and behead people simply to take the heat off the Israelis.
Far fetched or will it turn out to be one of those conspiracy theories that turns out to be true???
Stop Press... according to Bruce it could be part of a wider strategy.
Post edited at 22:32
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Why must it have been known?
all the interventions you list above you regard as bad but the US should have done something about ISIS at the moment they crossed the border to Iraq? If they had, you would have been moaning about the terrible US bombing these poor innocent people just driving their Land cruisers out of a war zone in Syria.
Why must it have been known?
all the interventions you list above you regard as bad but the US should have done something about ISIS at the moment they crossed the border to Iraq? If they had, you would have been moaning about the terrible US bombing these poor innocent people just driving their Land cruisers out of a war zone in Syria.
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
I don't see how you draw this conclusion from this thread. I've said that they continually set up problems for the future by not thinking about the long term consequences of their actions... it's been going on since the Bay of Pigs and probably before but I wasn't around then.
> It's ironic that you choose to disbelieve anything the US says, UNLESS they are bragging about their intelligence and military capabilities, in which you believe every word.
I don't see how you draw this conclusion from this thread. I've said that they continually set up problems for the future by not thinking about the long term consequences of their actions... it's been going on since the Bay of Pigs and probably before but I wasn't around then.
In reply to atrendall:
That's not quite what I said, but never mind, it may suit them though to get the death count in Gaza, 2100 now, out of the main headline, a little extra. I said I'm not sure if it was deliberate or not but it may not have happened if they hadn't helped group this along with others in Libya and Syria.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MID-01-210814.html
That's not quite what I said, but never mind, it may suit them though to get the death count in Gaza, 2100 now, out of the main headline, a little extra. I said I'm not sure if it was deliberate or not but it may not have happened if they hadn't helped group this along with others in Libya and Syria.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MID-01-210814.html
In reply to atrendall:
It makes you wonder why the Islamic state were carrying on as they were anyway, surely any real Islamic state would be sorting the Israelis out, not getting involved in some phoney psyop sideshow.
It makes you wonder why the Islamic state were carrying on as they were anyway, surely any real Islamic state would be sorting the Israelis out, not getting involved in some phoney psyop sideshow.
In reply to MG:
Would I? I thought you said I was a relentless supporter of Assad? Come on now get your story right?
> If they had, you would have been moaning about the terrible US bombing these poor innocent people just driving their Land cruisers out of a war zone in Syria.
Would I? I thought you said I was a relentless supporter of Assad? Come on now get your story right?
In reply to atrendall:
Less conspiratorially, do you think we would be in the ISIS pickle right now if we hadn't invaded Iraq?
Iraq, and the Sunni led chaos we caused post invasion, seems to have been ISIS' birthplace. If we hadn't invaded Iraq it is highly likely we would be less apprehensive about both aggressive action now and probably more inclined to decisive Syrian action a year ago - a point when we could potentially have shifted the tide in the Syrian war in such a way as to negate the ISIS threat now. To top it all off, our continued belligerence to Iran hardly helps us when trying to call in favours from the Shia section. And meanwhile we sit idly by while Israel bombs the crap out of Gaza. We can't seem to help ourselves from boosting ISIS.
Less conspiratorially, do you think we would be in the ISIS pickle right now if we hadn't invaded Iraq?
Iraq, and the Sunni led chaos we caused post invasion, seems to have been ISIS' birthplace. If we hadn't invaded Iraq it is highly likely we would be less apprehensive about both aggressive action now and probably more inclined to decisive Syrian action a year ago - a point when we could potentially have shifted the tide in the Syrian war in such a way as to negate the ISIS threat now. To top it all off, our continued belligerence to Iran hardly helps us when trying to call in favours from the Shia section. And meanwhile we sit idly by while Israel bombs the crap out of Gaza. We can't seem to help ourselves from boosting ISIS.
Post edited at 22:55
In reply to The Mystery Toad:
That's what a lot of other Muslims say.
> It makes you wonder why the Islamic state were carrying on as they were anyway, surely any real Islamic state would be sorting the Israelis out, not getting involved in some phoney psyop sideshow.
That's what a lot of other Muslims say.
In reply to mypyrex:
Doesn't sound east end British Asian at all. More like a Luton or Bedfordshire, probably travelled around the U.K. a bit.
D
Doesn't sound east end British Asian at all. More like a Luton or Bedfordshire, probably travelled around the U.K. a bit.
D
In reply to mypyrex:
More interesting analysis: "Why Washington's war on terror failed"
By Patrick Cockburn
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MID-01-220814.html
More interesting analysis: "Why Washington's war on terror failed"
By Patrick Cockburn
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MID-01-220814.html
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Thanks for that. This analysis goes a long way to filling in the myriad of holes left in every other item of reporting I've seen on ISIS. Its good to see the idea as Al Qaida as a skull and cross-bones flag on pirate ships being pushed, rather than an organisation that can be strategically bombed - as it is often presented.
Cockburn has a lot more credibility in my mind than some government minister's statement - which is very unfortunate.
I'd be interested to know where Egypt's MB fall in to his scale of moderate/extreme jihadis. It seems we've sided with groups we claim are moderate (because they serve our ends) when they are actually extreme, while decrying groups as extreme (because they don't), when they are actually moderate. Clusterfvck all round.
Thanks for that. This analysis goes a long way to filling in the myriad of holes left in every other item of reporting I've seen on ISIS. Its good to see the idea as Al Qaida as a skull and cross-bones flag on pirate ships being pushed, rather than an organisation that can be strategically bombed - as it is often presented.
Cockburn has a lot more credibility in my mind than some government minister's statement - which is very unfortunate.
I'd be interested to know where Egypt's MB fall in to his scale of moderate/extreme jihadis. It seems we've sided with groups we claim are moderate (because they serve our ends) when they are actually extreme, while decrying groups as extreme (because they don't), when they are actually moderate. Clusterfvck all round.
Post edited at 09:38
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
We can start playing "Where's Pepe?" in the UKC forums, like "Where's Wally?". I thought you said you did read other things besides Senor Escobar's latest blog post (do you think they are edited by anyone at AT before they go up? Doesn't look like it does it).
We can start playing "Where's Pepe?" in the UKC forums, like "Where's Wally?". I thought you said you did read other things besides Senor Escobar's latest blog post (do you think they are edited by anyone at AT before they go up? Doesn't look like it does it).
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
nonsense Bruce - Big difference between FSA and ISIS. There is no way that we (UK/US/France etc) would train or finance ISIS, who are effectively a reborn AQI (Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi's lot).
Free Syrian Army however - only a fool would think that we hadnt trained and equipped these guys at some point. the problem was when ISIS started killing these guys as well, and stealing their kit.
nonsense Bruce - Big difference between FSA and ISIS. There is no way that we (UK/US/France etc) would train or finance ISIS, who are effectively a reborn AQI (Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi's lot).
Free Syrian Army however - only a fool would think that we hadnt trained and equipped these guys at some point. the problem was when ISIS started killing these guys as well, and stealing their kit.
Post edited at 11:25
In reply to drunken monkey:
According to people who seem to know a little about it the problem is that when a person is trained there is no way of knowing what they really are nor who they may decide to fight for at a later date... seems a fairly reasonable supposition to me.
Similarly arms that may be supplied, in Turkey or Jordan for example, may be intended for "nice chaps" but what guarantee is there that they will end up with them? Or more simply as a lot of the fighting now is between different islamist groups or between islamist and the ever diminishing secular anti-Assad people (if they ever existed really) what happens to the arms of the losing groups when they are defeated by stronger people? As at present it seems to be ISIS and similar who are coming out on top then it seems reasonable to suppose that the weapons will end up in their hands too... as you say yourself.
IS seems to be on a roll at present and grabbing everything, from weapons to banks and even oil fields, using the weapons from Syria in Iraq, and maybe visa versa according to the way the tide changes.
One "easy" step might be to put pressure on Turkey and Jordan to shut their frontiers and stop helping the rebels in Syria, but doing this would help Assad and the Western powers (power might be more accurate) don't want to do this, they don't want to admit they are wrong in Syria any more than they clearly were wrong in Libya.
According to people who seem to know a little about it the problem is that when a person is trained there is no way of knowing what they really are nor who they may decide to fight for at a later date... seems a fairly reasonable supposition to me.
Similarly arms that may be supplied, in Turkey or Jordan for example, may be intended for "nice chaps" but what guarantee is there that they will end up with them? Or more simply as a lot of the fighting now is between different islamist groups or between islamist and the ever diminishing secular anti-Assad people (if they ever existed really) what happens to the arms of the losing groups when they are defeated by stronger people? As at present it seems to be ISIS and similar who are coming out on top then it seems reasonable to suppose that the weapons will end up in their hands too... as you say yourself.
IS seems to be on a roll at present and grabbing everything, from weapons to banks and even oil fields, using the weapons from Syria in Iraq, and maybe visa versa according to the way the tide changes.
One "easy" step might be to put pressure on Turkey and Jordan to shut their frontiers and stop helping the rebels in Syria, but doing this would help Assad and the Western powers (power might be more accurate) don't want to do this, they don't want to admit they are wrong in Syria any more than they clearly were wrong in Libya.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
http://archicivilians.wordpress.com/2014/06/26/battles-in-syria-june-2014/
> ? Or more simply as a lot of the fighting now is between different islamist groups or between islamist and the ever diminishing secular anti-Assad people
http://archicivilians.wordpress.com/2014/06/26/battles-in-syria-june-2014/
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...