UKC

So,

For several months my main target this autumn has been to smash my half marathon PB at the Cardiff Half in early October. Training is going well and I have managed to do around 90% of the runs of a 16-week, 5-sessions-a-week, 40km per week, training plan. Assuming I can keep it up for the last 5 or 6 weeks, I should be as ready as I am ever going to be for the Cardiff Half (if it helps, my target is sub 1:40, which I don't think will be easy for me, but I reckon I might just be able to make it).

However, I have now been convinced to enter an off-raod marathon in Gower in mid November (there are 5 clear weeks in between the two events). I have never run a marathon before(or any distance longer than a half)and so the aim will be simply to finish (although I would like to get round in less than the average finish time of 5:30ish).

My current plan is to keep following the half marathon training plan all the way up to the Cardiff Half (longest run is 2 hrs easy/steady pace, which should be about 14 miles) and to not alter it as the PB for that event is my main target. Once the half is over, I plan to maintain 5 days a week (2= 4-5miles/easy, 2= 5-8miles with intervals, 1=long) and to just lengthen my long run from 16miles, 18 miles, 20 miles, 22 miles (probably on-road, but with hills) and then go back down to 14 miles the week before the marathon.

Can anyone see any fatal flaws in the above plan and does anyone have any alternative suggestions - it seems reasonable to me, but like I say, I've not done a marathon before.

Any advice gratefully received.

In reply to fiendoidel:

The only suggestion I could make would be to lose the intervals and just plod, I don't imagine you'd benefit too much after your half doing them.
And make your 22 miler, 50% at the pace you intend to go at, three weeks before the marathon.

You'll be reet, good luck.

In reply to fiendoidel:

I think you'll be just fine. I would keep doing the intervals , but be flexible if you find you're not recovering well from the long runs

In reply to fiendoidel:

Have a bit of slack after the half and then try and get a (small) handful of 15+ mile runs in before the full, with a decent rest before the event. You'll be fine. It's offroad (which is clearly better!) and it's your first. No pressure, nobody cares what your time is. Get some hills in, get offroad. Smash it!

In reply to Ste Brom:

Yes, fair point regarding intervals. I did wonder about them, but I thought I would leave them in, mostly for my own sanity - I find 'easy' running can be a little dull and intervals breaks things up a bit - maybe I'll just drop it to one intervals per week and do easy hills for the other one.

Also, the marathon is all off-road and will involve sand dunes, muddy fields and rocky coastal paths etc, so any pace I choose when training on tarmac will probably bear little relation to the pace I'll be able to manage on the day. Would you go for 50% of the pace that I would intend to run a road marathon at? or would you just try and gauge an approximate race effort for 50% of the 22 miles? (btw - my pacing strategy for the marathon will be HR based - I am going to sit in Zone 2 for at least 20 miles, walking up the hills if need be - I've experienced going off much too fast in a half-marathon and it didn't end well - I don't fancy doing it again for double the distance)

In reply to SteveRi:
Also,

Anyone got any good suggestions for a nicely cushioned pair of shoes that I'll be able to train in on-road for the next two months (and run the Half in), but then use off-road. I am not sure my well worn set of Nike Pegasus are going to help me much in a muddy field.

In reply to fiendoidel:

Marathon training is another word for dull.

If I was upping my mileage in such a short time frame, I'd lose the speed, you won't see the gains in that time frame, plus you'd be more likely to do yourself a mischief.

I'd be inclined to treat your HM as your last speed training sesh.

As for your last long run, it's mainly to give you the confidence of getting round as much as anything, so to belt the lot of it out at the pace you intend to could leave you a tad downcast if you don't achieve it. I say that as sitting here, I'm Mo Farah in my head, but actually on the street I'm Mo from Eastenders.

And I probably wouldn't gauge you race day pace on HR, it goes all over the shop on race day...

One mans meat and all that....

In reply to Ste Brom:

'I'm Mo Farah in my head, but actually on the street I'm Mo from Eastenders.'

I like that. Thanks

In reply to fiendoidel:
I DNFd (as in, I gave up before the end) a 32 mile/6000 ft coastal path event recently, at just over the 20 mile mark. When I stopped I had just been passed by a V/F 50 couple who eventually finished in 5:45 ish. Their recent marathon times are 5 minutes either side of 3 hours. They and I were walking some of the hills after 5 miles. The young winner (who wins everything around here and is clearly an excellent runner) did it in 4:45 ish, or about 9:30 pace. His best marathon time is 2:57(6:45 pace, but my money is on him to substantially improve upon that, fairly soon), and his 5 k PB is 16:11.

On a flat 10 mile training run, I reckon I have done well if I do 7:30 pace overall. I rarely do that, but others of this parish do it frequently, mind! However, if I do 10 miles with 1800 m ascent off-road, then 8:40 pace is quite hard, and puts me near the top of any Strava segments that might be along the way.

Younger, better, fell runny types will have their own take.

Going from a road route pace to an off-road pace is heavily dependent on the ascent of the actual route and on the nature of it. Sand, shingles, mud, tussocks and bog will slow you down

In reply to mbh:

I agree that guaging pace will be almost impossible based on what pace I can and can't do on flat tarmac - that's were I think HR comes into its own (for me at least anyway) - been using HR for around 2 years now and have yet to have it fail me as a pacing guide (although sometimes I think it might make me too conservative over shorter distances).

Your account of the the 3-hour marathoners finishing in 5:45 for 32miles worries me a little bit tho - I can't comprehend running a 3 hour marathon (or even a 1:30 half), so we'll see what becomes of my better-than-average sub-5:30 target on the day. The way I figure it, the Gower route is so nice that, at worst, it'll be a lovely walk.

In reply to fiendoidel:

I can't imagine you'll have a problem either converting to marathon distance or doing under 5 hours. I have only done one marathon, Berlin, in 2008 and I didn't really train properly for it. Probably only ever did 3 longer runs of around 15-18 (biggest mistake i think was not ever running more than 18 so I didn't know what it felt like)

I was carrying a slight injury and got ITB pain about half way around, becoming quite severe. So the last third jog, walk, limp and I still got round in 5 hrs. Also I got my nutrition and hydration completely wrong and was stopping and pissing loads so that might be worth thinking about.

Would have thought you'd be fine with just some long steady runs and the base training you're doing for the half.

Re shoes, I have just worn out a pair of Adidas Kanadia - good off road and fine on.

In reply to fiendoidel:

I have done a great deal of coast path running in road shoes (Brookes Adrenalines), and was wearing them last year in the rain when I actually completed that 32 mile coast path event. If it is is fairly dry, they seem to be fine to me. Lately I have used Mizuno Wave Ascends for a few hundred miles on coast paths, muddy woods and bits of tarmac along the way. They are cushioned and I do feel more secure in them on slippery slopes, while also finding them good on the road if the route goes there.

Others will recommend all manner of other makes and models. You need to try something and see if it works for you.

In reply to fiendoidel:

You'll be fine, I did my first trail marathon (about 4000') in 4:45 I think and (foolishly) hadn't done over 15 in training. At the time I was just under 1h40 for a half. I went off a fairly simple strategy of 'try not to get too out of breath'.
I'm more Mo from the Simpsons me.

In reply to fiendoidel:

Thanks for all the responses. Seems like my intial plan was reasonably sensible; except for the double dose of intervals each week, I'll probably stick to it.

I think Mo from Simpsons might have a better running physique than me - I'd have to be Mo Mowlam.

In reply to fiendoidel:

I'd probably go for less than 14 miles the week before the marathon. After all, the longest run you've ever done until 5 weeks before was 13.1 miles, and being well rested is worth more than trying to squeeze every last ounce of training time in.

The week after your half (which should be a very hard session as you're aiming for PB) I'd do very little. There are various estimates on how long it takes to recover fully from hard efforts- and for a half you'll be talking a week or two probably.

I'd also sling any speed work in the last 5 weeks, and probably even drop one session (ie move to 4 runs a week). You're making a fairly steep progression from 13-22 miles and to be able to achieve that you'll need to focus your recovery so that you can handle these long runs without issue (ie injury or over training).

In reply to fiendoidel:


Not a very experienced runner here, but I'd suggest (as a couple of others have) an easy week after the half. It does take time to recover from that kind of thing. (About 4 weeks for me when I ran my first and only half marathon, with a cold coming on. Don't do that.)

In reply to fiendoidel:

I'd go for it but drop a long run.. Next weekend after the half 2 hours easy.. Then say 17, 21, 18 then just 90-120 mins easy the week before... Even that is pushing it but see how you recover... 5 weeks isn't long.. My last long run tends to be 3 weeks out.. 13-16 2 weeks out.. 10-12 a week out...

I'd just look to enjoy the experience and learn how your body reacts to long runs, play it by feel the first time you run bigger miles..

In reply to fiendoidel:

Thanks all for the tips. Will put them all in a pot and come up with something that will get me round on the day.

I am coming round to the idea of dropping all speed work - did two sesions this week involving long intervals (1x25mins on one day and then 2x10 mins with 2min recovery two days later). Must of taken it out of me because my legs fell apart 18km into my 'long' (23km) run last night and I had to walk the last 5km. It might also have been being very dehydrated and generally knackered, but I figure walking from 18km to 42km during my marathon ain't going to get me the best time in the world...

Thanks Again

In reply to fiendoidel:

Is it the endurance life one? I did the half many, many years ago and it was a tough one. Go off slow, walk the hills from the start and take plenty to eat. I did the half in 1:50 ish I think and my PB is 1:25 so that's an idea of the difficulty of the route. (if it's the same one)

Running hard, hilly, off road marathons is not the same as road ones. You don't need speed and endurance so much, you need to eat well, know when to walk and when not to. Do not start the death walk to the finish too early. Mostly you will get a mental workout in the last 10 miles or so. Just remember to keep moving. Enjoy the day and enjoy overtaking everyone that went too fast at the start.

In reply to XXXX:
Yes, thats the one. I have done the Gower 10km one before and the half marathon in South Devon (with virually no training but still setting off like an over-excited puppy - it utterly broke me - not so much death walk as death shuffle), so I have some idea what to expect, but no idea of what the distance might do to me.

The route looks great, so I am hoping that the views will occupy my mind for a good number of hours. In an ideal world I hope to finish reasonably strong (rather than on my knees, begging for mercy) and avoid ever starting a 'death walk' - we'll see how that plan pans out in reality.