UKC

As there is a new guidebook in preparation that will include Brean Down i thought the issue with the top outs/bolted lower offs should be brought up at the next BMC SW Bristol meeting and of course with Martin Crocker.

There was a good debate on here last year http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=559792 but i wanted to get more up to date views.

In reply to The Pylon King:

Dont some of the routes also rely on fixed pegs? Which might as well be non-existent

In reply to Kemics:

Well yes that as well!

In reply to The Pylon King:

I'm happy that they stay with the rubbish lower off stakes but if they do I won't climb there again.

In reply to puppythedog:


eh????

In reply to The Pylon King:

Bolts please. Otherwise its a perfectly good cragging spot going to waste. Its already a mixed ethic crag, bolted lower offs is a logical step. Lets face it, if you really want aventure you're going to go somewhere other than Brean down...

In reply to The Pylon King:

Exactly as it says Mark. I'm not strongly in favour of bolted lower-offs, or against even for that matter. I wouldn't climb there again though without bolted lower-offs. I thought Pandora's box was an horrific experience for me because of the top out.

In reply to puppythedog:


I did Pandora recently and i thought the top out was fine and there was a stake to belay on.

In reply to The Pylon King:

I did it a couple of years ago and the stake was bloody wobbly and I was not all that confident.

In reply to The Pylon King:

In fairness you'd backed up the stake with a nut in the outcrop beyond (attached by a fixed rope) which you might not be able to reach with 50m ropes. My thoughts on Pandora's Box are that a replacement, more reassuring stake would be nice (though possibly stakes are always going to feel a bit wobbly in that unconsolidated sand?) but for me a bolted lower off wouldn't have improved the experience - I actually thought the top-out itself was not too bad, and being old fashioned I do prefer trad routes to finish on top of the cliff where possible.

Haven't done anything else there, and to be honest there's only Cyclops Slab that I've any real ambitions towards. It strikes me that if lower offs enabled the harder trad routes to be done onsight without going round to the top with a separate rope to safeguard the top-out then it might mean they don't get completely neglected. On the other hand, if in reality people will still need to go round to the top with an ab rope to brush sand off the finishing holds, then I'm not sure there's any advantage to putting lower offs in. But that's for people who are capable/willing to do the routes to decide!

Rick

In reply to Rick Sewards:


Routes like Cyclops Slab are classic adventure routes at an accessible grade. If you feel you need it, go round and check the stake or hang a rope over the top but to lower off down the slab would be to fail on the route.

Saying that Cyclops Slab needs a bolt lower off because it's too adventurous is the silliest argument ever. The first belay isn't great either, should we drill something there too? Come to think of it the slab's pretty run out too.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

I think he is referring to harder routes.

In reply to The Pylon King:
Cyclops slab is the only route I've done a Brean. The top.out was sandy but OK, the belay was wobbly but that's OK too.
Bolted lower off's sound out of place to me.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Sorry, as Mark said I wasn't thinking of Cyclops Slab, which I know you can do without pre-inspection. My impression (which may be wrong) was that some of the harder routes had only ever been done with a pre-placed fixed rope, and effectively can't be done by a team just turning up at the bottom of the cliff and tying on - it was those routes I was thinking of.

Rick

In reply to The Pylon King:

Not needed for Cyclops Slab, Great Corner or Pandora's Box and I think they'd spoil them, topping out's part of the route (and really not that bad!).

Only noticed the stakes on all of these after we'd finished the climbs so I'd say they're unnecessary, but wouldn't have any problem with them.

No opinion on the hard stuff really.

In reply to Rick Sewards:


Yes, i get the impression that the easier trad lines like Pandora, Cyclops and Great Corner are fine as they are and all part of the 'adventure'.

In reply to The Pylon King:

bump

In reply to Rick Sewards:

OK, sorry if I over-reacted, it's just that I've only recently realised that much that I thought was pretty much universally accepted apparently isn't when it comes to retrobolting!


I'm still no sure that perceived under-usage is a justification for putting a lower-off on a trad route, particularly where its predominant characteristic is boldness and adventure. I'm not sure the lack of a convenient belay at the top is main reason that Bones Chimney gets done so rarely.

I don't know about the more recent E5 and E6s, I guess you'd have to ask the first ascensionists but it seems to me that you are going to commit to a big scary trad route, it really isn't too much trouble to stroll round to check the top-out. Put a stake in if necessary and dangle a bit of rope. You'll have to belay from the top in most cases anyway won't you? Or are you concerned that checking the top and fixing a belay blows the on-sight?

Why does it bother you so much if some scary routes don't get done very often? Are you on commission or something? This is a general point that is coming up quite often, it's not just aimed at you.

In reply to The Pylon King:

Im for the addition of bolted loweroffs on the routes that end with a horible sand cornice. The stakes in the soft sand are uninspiring to say the least.

Im also for replacing all the decaying drilled fixed gear with a new bolt. some of the bolts/drilled pegs are in a horrible state.

when is the next BMC SW meeting

In reply to The Pylon King:

It's a very, very long time since I climbed there, but how far back are the "outcrops" on the top where you put gear in (wires, threads) to back up the stakes?? How about some bolts in there??

What length rope do you need to get all the way back to them??

In reply to brices:




I agree.

I'm an ex-SWestie and avoided Brean trad after hearing some horrific tales of rotting gear and top-outs.

Any type of non-stainless in-situ gear on a sea cliff is a ticking time bomb.

The choices are - no fixed gear at all, or do it properly with stainless glue-in bolts.

Things like psycho-death-drummer were effectively sport routes for the FA, but now are a much more Russian Roulette experience. Time for some glue-ins...?

In reply to The Pylon King:

I suppose these days "mixed media" top-outs on grass, soil, vegetation, sand, loose rock etc. are less commonly dealt with and the skills/judgement to do so are diminishing art. I can remember a steep sand finish to (?Idiot Wind I Think) which wasn't that bad really and added to the character of the route.

In reply to The Pylon King:


What routes do you have in mind?

I've done and enjoyed quite a few of the trad. routes at Brean, nearly everything up to and including Bones Chimney. I agree with all Guy Percival's points in last year's thread. I don't recall any routes that really needed a bolted lower-off. Occasionally it was necessary to pull up one rope to belay up on the rocky outcrops but this is standard adventure sea cliff practice. Even with lower-offs the trad. routes are not going to be popular and that's fine by me. I wouldn't want to see any of the routes I've done retro'ed.

The fixed gear on Martin's E5s and E6s is a separate issue.

One specific suggestion: Distant Voices. Remove the peg (if possible, or leave to decay) and the thread, replace the caving bolt with a stainless steel glue-in. It would be a good trad. route in this form.

In reply to The Pylon King:

Hi,
I have recently climbed some of the routes off the beach like brean machine. The routes are great but almost not worth doing as you have to spend ages getting ropes and shit steaks equalized. A bolted lower off would improve this no end. We replaced the threads and the pegs looked good. It would be a shame to just whack bolts in where there is good peg.
All for the lower offs.
Ollie.

In reply to olliebenzie:

Did a good number of the e4-6 trad routes ground up and the top outs were just fine. Never experienced any sand cornices nor wished we had preplaced belay ropes. I think we plodded up to the rocky outcrops made a belay on wires. I can't imagine lower offs would make these routes more popular in reality - the meat of the climb being the main deterent.

In reply to Andy Donson:

Are you sure that was Brean Down? I've been there several times and never seen a rocky outcrop. I recall a steep slope of sandy soil covered in grass and rabbit holes that goes all the way to the path at the top.

In reply to GridNorth:

There are outcrops above the boulder cove, the great corner area, and the right hand area (L'Attraction Fatale, Pandora's Box, etc.)

I don't think there is much above Cyclops Slab except for a couple of hawthorns well back.

In reply to Andy Donson:

Hi andy, what routes did you do? they sound good!!
i was on brean machine and the routes there all appear to have the 'brean top out' - what ever chord of fear that strikes.
Ollie

In reply to Paul Robertson:

hi paul, there is an out crop above l,attracton fatale, the problem was getting there from the last stable hold.

In reply to Paul Robertson:

I stand corrected.

In reply to The Pylon King:


When I did Pandora's Box in February 2013 the top crack was full of mud/clay. Seems like it's a natural run off gully and any water/mud goes straight into the crack. The stake belay was someway back but adequate.

In reply to olliebenzie:

L'attraction and brean machine, cove arete and bones that I can remember. This was 20 years ago so maybe there has been some major sand build up in the meantime