UKC

English living in Scotland are to be given dual nationality if the vote is Yes , but has anyone any idea where this puts Scots living in England.

By all accounts these Scots will have new Scottish passports when their UK passports run out , but that's all I've found so far.

In reply to nbonnett:

Kick them out and make them apply for leave to remain in England.

I blame that idiot Mel Gibson for all this.

In reply to nbonnett: I guess that they'll be interned, there may be the occasional trading of prisoners but basically it will be internment until the war is over.

In reply to Rigid Raider:
wow.... are you going to do this for all imigrants or just the Scots who have already chosen to move to England?

how DARE they be from a country that they no longer live in that wants to do something they are taking no part in!




also kick them out and let them remain in... which one is it?

Post edited at 08:40

In reply to Sir Chasm:

that's better!

In reply to nbonnett:


What about the British currently living in southern Britain? We have a right to live in Scotland now and have no vote about losing that right. Shouldn't we all get dual nationality?

In reply to nbonnett:

You're asking about UK citizens living in the (remainder of the) UK.

I'm not a huge fan of Westminster politics, but I'd be fairly surprised if they adopted a policy of ethnic cleansing!

In reply to nbonnett:

Does the euro zone not have open borders anyway? (Provided an independent Scotland was in the EU)

In reply to skog:

Well there won't be a UK if the votes Yes and as Scots won't be part of the EEC unless they have dual nationality, as the English living in Scotland will, then will they have the legal right to work etc.?

Really pissed the other half off when i jokingly told her this but it got me thinking.

In reply to nbonnett:

As John Major said on the radio this morning, they become " foreigners". he said himself its a ridiculous state of affairs.

In reply to nbonnett:

Assuming iScotland accedes to the EU, and the UK remains, then it doesn't matter; there is 'free movement of persons'

I would guess that Scots who wish to could apply for UK passports, depending on the criteria laid out in the separation deal, but why would they want to?


I'm more concerned by potential mindless backlash & recriminations being taken out on Scots in the UK post a 'Yes' vote. (Like my Mum)

In reply to nbonnett:


Really? How do you figure?


Have I missed something in the news? Is there some suggestion that the rUK would strip some of its resident citizens of their citizenship based on their ethnic origin? Honestly?

In reply to skog:


No iv'e not read this either but on the same note no one's mentioned it and i'm just wondering what the status of Scots living in England will be , as there are approx. 800,000 Scots living in England.

Personally i find the idea of Scots who work and live in England all their lives suddenly being classed as foreigners within England totally abhorrent and absurd.

Don't know how the tw*ts at the Daily Mail are going to deal with that one when they can't get their heads round EEC member states citizens living and work here in England.

In reply to nbonnett:


It does sound a bit odd, yes. Do you have any reason at all to think that it would happen?

In reply to nbonnett:

As I've asked on another thread, will UK passports still be valid or will we all be faced with paying for a new one. If so, shouldn't this be paid for by Scotland, if there is a yes vote, for bringing this about?

In reply to skog:

If Scotland votes yes, which i passionately hope it doesn't , then ultimately it will become a foreign country by definition , outside of the EU and with these racists in power ( Tory's) who knows what could happen .

In reply to nbonnett:

Lots of people will come up to them and say "You lucky b****rds'?

In reply to wercat:

I read the other day that UK passports will be valid for all Scots until they run out , upon which Scots will have to apply for a Scottish Passport , hopefully at Salmon's personal expense.

In reply to Bulls Crack:



ha

In reply to nbonnett:


I bet the Daily Mail will consider that as they will have a UK passport at present they will continue to have one afterwards... your question smacks of scaremongering.

What is less clear is what will be the situation of a UK citizen living outside Scotland who moves to Scotland after independence (should this sad state of affairs come to be). Whether he or she was a Scot (how do you judge this, no one thought it meant enough for them to vote in the referendum) or not. The present place of abode doesn't change the matter IMO.

In reply to nbonnett:


Yup. However, it does not follow that people born in Scotland but resident in the UK, with UK nationality, would have their UK nationality stripped from them.

I can see them being offered Scottish nationality, and maybe having to surrender UK nationality if they choose to take it, but that's a far cry from the UK starting to strip people of their citizenship.


I'm no fan of the Tories, but they aren't a racist party.

In reply to nbonnett:


But you won't be a Scot unless you live there. If you do your next passport will be Scottish... how much this will cost is yet yo be said AFAIK, probably it'll be completely free and they'll send you 50 of what ever the currency will be to be spent in local shops - it will be paradise, don't forget.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

I'm not scaremongering as it's a genuine question and concern as my partners Scottish and it's a question we've both asked but can't find an answer to.

English in Scotland yes, scot in England ??

In reply to nbonnett:

Contact your MP: http://www.parliament.uk/get-involved/contact-your-mp/contacting-your-mp/

You can ask them whether the UK parliament would be likely to start stripping citizenships like that.

In reply to nbonnett:

The crucial problem is whether our passports are accepted elsewhere as they were issued by a UK no longer as it is currently defined.

Some states may simply think it is simpler not to worry about whether an existing one is valid or not and simply require one issued by the centres of government of the newly partitioned zones

In reply to nbonnett:

My wife is Scottish -- In the event of Scotland becoming a fully independent nation, I would assume that if she wanted she could apply to the Scottish passport office for dual nationality.

As we were married in Scotland - under Scottish law, it begs the question as to whether I would then be able to apply for Scottish citizenship.

In the event of being granted Scottish nationality, would expatriate Scots then be allowed a postal vote in Scottish elections as the are currently permitted to do under existing legislation.

Yet another administrative minefield.

As I keep reminding my Scottish relatives, beware the law of unforseen consequences, and be careful what you wish for - -it might just happen.

In reply to Lord of Starkness:


Scottish nationality, almost certainly. Dual nationality would depend on whether Scotland and/or UK would require one nationality to be surrendered before taking on the other.


Probably, if you became resident in Scotland.


Maybe. This often depends on how long it has been since someone has been resident in their country of nationality.



Minefield? This looks like pretty standard stuff, routine for any country. You appear to be trying very hard to look for problems!

In reply to skog:





Yep simple. Only one "almost certainly", only one "would depend on", one "maybe" and one "probably" in the space of 3 questions.

Still I am sure it "maybe" all be sorted out with "probably" minimal/no expense, "depending on" what administrative systems are put in place.

In reply to skog:

E-mailed my MP who replied within minutes as the 3 bosses are on an away day trip to the folks up North.

Basically he isn't sure and like everyone South of the Border is dreading a Yes vote and everything it entails for ALL OF US.

In reply to off-duty:

Careful, you're going a bit scaremongery there.

See, this is what the No campaign is like on almost every issue, and why people are stopping listening to the constant gloom and doom.

I could pretend to have absolute answers about individual circumstances for people I don't know, but I don't really want to - it would be dishonest.

Certainties: Scottish citizenship would exist. UK citizenship would exist. There would be a mechanism for someone of Scottish descent to gain Scottish citizenship.

Near-certainty: There would be a mechanism for someone resident in Scotland, with a Scottish spouse, to gain Scottish citizenship.

Unknown: Voting rights for Scottish citizens resident abroad.

Do you have specific worries about this?

In reply to skog:


Yep - it's much easier to say "it's going to be great, stop worrying".






Speaking as someone who is already disenfranchised from one of the most important votes about Scotland, and faces an uncertain prospect about the possibilities of being able to to go "home" and live and work, then - yes I do.

Additionally - has the cost of administering this Scottish citizenship process been factored into the costs of independence?
A number of knotty problems to be resolved = lawyers. Issuing of passports/work permits/citizenship document = public sector or public/private partnerships. Admin and checking of all the above = further public or public/private costs.
All to be paid for by oil presumably?

In reply to off-duty:

You forgot the "often depends on" and "This looks like". Are the Scots really this reckless? After 20 years living in Scotland I would be amazed but am genuinely concerned now. Somehow any questioning of the Yes claims is doom and gloom and negative, while any arm-waving assertion about future sweetness and light is obviously correct.

In reply to skog:

Nope - just asking questions as they arise and looking for answers that the politicians on both sides of the divide seem to be glossing over.

Given the propensity of politicians and their advissors of all hues to have an uncanny knack of right royally cocking things up, I just feel too few answers have been forthcoming about the everyday things that will affect lives on both sides of the border.

The politicians are either unwilling to address them, or more worryingly haven't thought through the consequences of their desires.

I've a worry that the Scots are being bounced into independence via a referendum in the same way that the Heath government took us in to the EEC with a load of rhetoric and half thought out economics.

In reply to off-duty:

It's going to be OK, stop worrying.

We live in 21st century Europe - it's pretty good but it isn't always 'great'.

Scots now have a chance to see whether we can make it great. We won't get it all right, but I'm not interested in presupposing abject failure - I see no reason why we can't do fine.


In that case, your main worry should probably be the UK's EU membership. That's an uncertainty playing on my mind.

In reply to skog:

But that is technically what would happen. I have little time for John Major, but he raised a reasonable point today. Basically if there is a yes vote, then yes Scots will be foreigners and all that history and common bond would be destroyed. As he said himself, its ridiculous, but his was a valid point, and he asked people who were voting to just think about it and the consequences. He was quite passionate about it.

In reply to neilh:


By Scots, do you mean Scottish citizens, or people of Scottish descent? It's a very important distinction.

Also, my wife's a 'foreigner'. I'm not really seeing the problem with that!

In reply to nbonnett:



But she won't be a Scot in England she'll be a UK citizen in the UK, just as she is now. Don't forget she was treated this way in the referendum, not resident in Scotland no right to vote. The only citizenship in the UK at present is British and in what remains of the UK after a possible independence of Scotland will not change.

In reply to blurty:

And yet it is not impossible to foresee the rest of the UK leave the EU and Scotland remain. In which case Hadrians wall rebuilt?

Don't New Zealand/Australia have some special arrangement that allows pretty free movement between them. It seems likely that something similar would happen (unless the rest of the UK leave the EU!)

In reply to blurty:




The other complication being that if there are difficulties with Scotland entering the EU, then we may be in a position where England is in the EU, Scotland is not. Some form of border controls will be required between Scotland/England.

Entirely possible that free movement/free work transit between Scotland and England is possible for British citizens in tha case, but there will be difficulties for non-British citizens.
Similarly EU work permits for Scots will be dependent on their possession of British citizenship rather than Scottish - which should be fine, until we have the next generation of Scots, born in an independent country. Obviously the EU and/or free movement conditions could have been worked out by then.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Bruce, any chance of not twisting things to suit your entrenched views? It really isn't helpful. Yes, only people who are resident in Scotland get to vote in the referendum (like other elections), but surely even you can see that if you were born in Scotland, there will be a process put in place where you will be able to apply for dual nationality - oh, hang on, it's already here!

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/2...

In reply to Scomuir:


It was still very hurtful for many who had seen themselves as Scots all their lives and all of a sudden are told by fellow Scots on an issue concerning their own country that it was none of their business - I have an old Aunt in just this situation, I saw her a few days ago, born and bred in the Gorbals but no right to have her say on the future of Scotland.


That wasn't the question posed by the OP, he asked what the situation would be for his wife living in England. I replied what I am sure is the truth, she will have no problems, she will reamin a British citizen. How is that scaremongering?

Maybe it's you who are "twisting things to suit your entrenched views"? It's true that it's not helpful but it seems to be endemic amongst nationalists. Every thing is grist for the mill to present those against breaking up the country as negative... Britain is our country too you know, we may have the right to argue agauinst those we feel are militating for something that will do an awful lot of harm to it's people, North or South.

In reply to nbonnett:

Scots (presumably meaning people born in Scotland)living anywhere should be no different from any other R(UK) citizen. If they wanted to apply for a Scottish passport they could.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Bruce, take a step back and look at the link I posted. It was to answer the OP's question. I'm not sure how that does anything to "twist things". You were the one scaremongering in your post...

In reply to Scomuir:

So scaremongering is saying "don't worry you have nothing to worry about"? Ok, I see.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Bruce...

you live in France yes?

i don't know if you do have some process for voting in the UK but as you now reside in a different counrty you shouldn't.

i don't see how this is different from your Aunt... or Sean Connery for that matter. you vote to change the country you live in, not the country you were born in.

people of all nationalities who actually live in Scotland are allowed to vote. seems fair to me. as a resident of Edinburgh who was born in East Kilbride i don't vote in south lanarkshire elections

i think your arguemnt on this point is disingenuous at best

In reply to rallymania:
Non UK residents do get to vote in UK general elections (for a limited period). Seems pretty reasonable, as they are still UK citizens and have a stake in the future of the UK.
This is slightly more important than a general election

One group of disenfranchised voters are Scottish soldiers stationed outside Scotland. I would have thought of all the 10% of Scottish disenfranchised voters, they certainly have reason to be upset.

In reply to rallymania:


I can't, EU rules don't impose this on France. As for my Aunt, she was born in Britain so why wouldn't she get to vote in a referendum that will break the country up? Especially when the bit breaking off is where she was born and her whole culture relates her to?

The truth is it's just gerrymandering, like the allowing children to vote... not very firm ground to build a new country on.


Even when the changes concern the particular part that you still feel totally related to? My Aunt is probably too old so it is just felt like an emotional rejection, a nice little present for her old age, but younger people spending a few years of their lives either completely abroad or in simply another part of their present country could well have planned to go back again so the future political situation of Scotland most definitely concerns them, why do people like you pretend to have the right to refuse them this?

In reply to off-duty:



Wow, I didn't know that. That's pretty appalling.

In reply to Tom Last:

And yet the referendum rules allow 16 year olds the vote. Ridiculous, when it leads to one youngster saying "I'm going to vote 'yes', but might change my mind the next time"

In reply to off-duty:


Not what the electoral commission say:

http://www.aboutmyvote.co.uk/register_to_vote/armed_forces.aspx

In reply to Tom Last:


It may have been appalling if it were true. It isn't true, its a desperate red herring. Anyone with an address in Scotland temporarily stationed outside, has a vote.

In reply to silhouette:

Okay fair enough.

In reply to Tom Last:

And plain wrong, they have a postal vote.

To people comparing it to a general election, This affects the passport that Scottish people hold. So while a general election affects the way a country is governed for the next 5 years, and it is right those present in the country get a vote; how is it right that my next passport could be s Scottish one and not a UK one, and I have less say in that than someone living in Scotland for a couple of years from another EU country. They can go home the day after the vote and the way they voted will have no consequences for them or their future children but will have drastically changed the future of me and mine.

In reply to silhouette:


So, as with all the other disenfranchised expats, if you and your family have moved to elsewhere in the UK or abroad as directed by your military posting, - then you don't have a vote

In reply to off-duty:

From the link I posted above:

A person may only register in Scotland as a service voter if:

• They are resident at an address in Scotland.

• Would have been resident at an address in Scotland if they or their spouse or civil partner were not posted abroad.

In reply to climbwhenready:





So, when you and your family are posted to Germany (as per 4 Scots), or Canterbury ( as per 5 Scots) then make sure you own a house in Scotland.

In reply to off-duty:

No. You have to have previously have lived in Scotland, and register as a scottish service voter.

If you register in your house in Canterbury *instead* of doing that, that's different, but that's your choice.

Armed forces voting is not a new situation.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
honestly i still don't get this Bruce.

she's moved away, that was her choice and it's preventing her from voting not me.

In reply to climbwhenready:




If you have moved outside Scotland then you have to expressly de-register your non-Scottish address (as you cannot be on the electoral register in two places) and make an application to register a Scottish address - something that might well be difficult.

It's certainly not straightforward, and the possibility of being disenfranchised from a Scottish referendum vote, as opposed to having a right to vote in a UK general election IS a new situation.

In reply to nbonnett:



Presumably they will be eligible for UK citizenship on a residency basis when their current passports expire: if they can pass the citizenship quiz......

In reply to off-duty:

Do we agree then that servicemen and women have a vote? Daily mail reporting notwithstanding.

In reply to climbwhenready:


There is a mechanism in place that will have enabled some of them to have registered for a vote, yes

In reply to off-duty:

I get what you mean about it being a faff, though!

In reply to nbonnett:

I've just provided a quote to rebuild Hadrians Wall.

In reply to nbonnett:

In reply to the OP:

There'll be more of them (unless the English close the border to stem the tide of economic migrants and refugees sweeping south).

In reply to rallymania:


I realise that.


She, like her three sisters, married service men stationed to Scotland during the war. The other two are dead. So it's her fault that mean minded nationalists have deprived her of a vote just to increase their chances? After the victory over fascism at the end of WW2, which had mobilised all the country, N and South, with the exception of the leading Scottish Nationalist at the time who supported the nazis, how could she ever have imagined that Scots would think of leaving Britain? Your remarks illustrate all that is mean in the Yes campaign.

In reply to nbonnett:
I would imagine Scotland will become part of the EU fairly promptly (but likely not the Euro) and the border between Scotland and England will be pretty similar to that between Germany and France (down to some kind of special arrangement) allowing free movement for travel, working and living.

In reply to rallymania:


You should, for 15 years you can vote in generals as an overseas voter.

In reply to TobyA:

There are other systems, France has several MPs reserved for its citizens living overseas. Personally I think you should vote where you live in general but a referendum which actually changes the existence of your country is an exception.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

My wife is a Scot too, not living there. I can see no reason why the rest of the UK should provide her with a passport (unless she complies with whatever requirements - foreigners - EU- like me need to comply with). I assume she could apply for a Scottish passport, but would have little desire for one as they just told her she is not one (was not allowed a vote).
Allowing dual passports would be ridiculous as most Scots would then apply both as insurance and 60 million RUKers would potentially apply for a Scottish passport just in case (RUK leaves EU and Scotland gets in which Spain will oppose).
All in all, not thought out, not discussed and left at the mercy of negotiations post vote, ie no-one knows what they are voting for.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

I know but he was talking about being able to vote in British elections. You're not French or dual-national are you?

In reply to TobyA:


So am I. The 15 year rule didn't always exist, before there was no limitation. If I was French or dual nationality, French/British, there would be no problem, I could vote where I was resident, like my daughter who lives in London.

In fact I could vote in Britain as we have a house there and regularly get forms through the letter box asking if there are an electors there. I could reply yes and no one would check up but that would be slightly dishonest.

In reply to orejas:


Quite agree. All in all both Cameron and Salmond (as representatives of their parties) have a lot to answer for.

In reply to nbonnett:

Will Mr Putin be sending arms (I mean humanitarian relief) to the Scots separatists?

In reply to nbonnett:
( joke)

The votes are counted in the Scottish Referendum and it is a No, (As hoped enough Scots switched to No because of vague promises of more powers.

Prime Minister Cameron calls all the parties to the cabinet office at Downing Street to start on the 'Timetabled' talks on delivering more powers for Scotland (for voting no.)
( champagne glasses chink all around , they are in a party mood)

Prime Minister Cameron opens the meeting, Ladies and gentleman, welcome to the first timetabled ( and last) meeting to deliver on our promises of MORE powers for Scotland .
( howls of laughter fill the room)

So what exactly have we all 'promised' says the PM?
(Even more howls of laughter)

LABOUR:- what did you promise:-
Joanne Lamont:- Well prime minister we promised , powers to raise just 15p in the pound on income tax , (but we meant ONLY if a pig flies past St Paul's. )

PM Cameron thinks about this, and says , well we don't want that to happen, and there are a lot of clever scientists out there , so he gets his advisors to call on world renowned genetic experts to find out if there was ANY chance that pig could ever fly over St Paul's.
The answer comes back, that a genetically modified pig might just fly past St Paul's on day. But if they changed that to a cow jumping over the moon, then they would not have to deliver on that promise.

The PM was happy with that change, and scored the Labour promise off the list.


Ok LIBDEMS what did you promise the Scots? Says PM Cameron.
Danny Alexander says , well Prime Minister, WE said would give Scotland TOTAL control over all Scottish income tax rates, as well as other taxes including air passenger duty.
( but we meant only if Alex Salmond could Square the circle. )

PM Cameron thinks about this for a while and says well we certainly don't want THAT to happen, and sends out for the most eminent mathematicians in the world, who are asked what the chances are that Alex Salmond could ever Square the circle.
The mathematicians come back, and say there is only an infinitesimal chance that Alex Salmond could ever possibly square the circle BUT, to be really safe if you change that to,:- When a snail exceeds the speed of light, then they would not have to deliver on that promise.

The PM was happy with that change, and scored the Libdem promises off the list.

So that just leaves us the Conservative Party , what did WE promise says the PM
Ruth Davidson says, well Prime Minister, we promised more tax powers, more spending powers, and more powers over the welfare state.
(But we meant ONLY if Glasgow Rangers ever win a SPL championship again. )
The PM, thinks about this for a few seconds, looks at his advisors and says....

Ladies and gentlemen, that concludes our meeting of delivering more powers to Scotland.
I am confident that we will NEVER have to deliver on any of them.

In reply to Jim C:
Nice..... but so close to what will happen if we vote no that it made me wince........ let's just hope that we wake up on Friday morning with great big fat YES.

In reply to alastairmac:


With the realisation that promises have been made that can never be kept...........

In reply to Jim C:

and Scottish voters go 'right, so that's the game'

Then return a massive SNP majority at the next Scottish parliament elections with a mandate for another referendum

Which is a huge yes vote

They may be many things, but Westminster politicians arent stupid when it comes to winning elections. If its a close 'no' vote there will be new powers, enough to ensure that the Scottish electorate doesnt feel cheated and annihilate the better together supporting parties at the next election,

Cheers

Gregor

In reply to Jim C:

Are ypu still saying you are undecided? You sound so much as if you have that it's hard to believe

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Bruce... you do your argument no favours with with that positon.

All that is mean in the Yes campaign? yep it's only yes voters that are being mean, right, good one.

at some point you have to set criteria of elegiblity to vote on a decision... how far back should you go? how about back to before the union was formed? it's about the future, not the past.

if your aunt hasn't lived in Scotland since the end of WW2, Bruce that was nearly 70 years ago. the world has moved on from there.

oh and are you suggesting that the modern nationalists are the same people that supported the Nazis? so you've just called me a facist? nice... and i'm supposed to be the mean spirited one? what about the guy who sits opposite me at work, he's pro indy, his Dad was a communist... he was in the CND, rockers against racists, he was a shop steward etc etc, he must be a nazis sympathsier too then?

as i said bruce, it was 70 years ago... let it go!

In reply to rallymania:


I don't think I did say that, no. On the other hand if they defend the same point as view as the bloke back in the war, I think he was locked up(?), then they would be leaning that way. If, however, they disagree with him, and think Scots should have fought along side my English Uncles, as many did then, I don't think this could be said.

But, and it's an important but, I do maintain that the mentality behind this sort of nationalism, one that thinks in terms of putting people on one side of a border on a different level to themselves, who would say "it's our oil", does go back to the nationalisms of the past. This may not be what many or most people who support independence at present really think themselves, but nor was it true of all the millions who were taken in in the past by this ideology.


We still all live under political and philosophical ideas that are much older than that, letting the past go is rarely a good idea, learning from the past is vital.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

learning from the past is vital i agree.

doesn't seem like the establishment in the UK has though.

one final point on the mean-ness of indy voters

many yes voters (including me) wanted the option of devomax on the voting slip. but "that bullying" no campaign denied us that right. it makes me sick that i as some one who actually lives in this country can't vote for what i want to vote on because some mean spirit unionist stopped us from doing so. (see how silly that sounds?)

for what it worth, i'd rather see the planet heading towards a more united stand point (coming together not pulling apart) than constantly fighting each other. but it seems that's human nature. so what do you do with a country that about 50% of the population feel they've been marginalized and disconnected from it's political infrastructure?

and what will you say if say 85% turn out to vote and it's 60 / 40?
(personally if 85% turn out to vote then i don't really care what the result is... that in itself will be bl00dy incredible)

In reply to rallymania:


Yes... but it's little to do with the point I was making. I think it's also factually incorrect - I realise that all must be blamed on "Westminster", but even so!