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Most of us atheists would probably attend a funeral, most a wedding, maybe a christening. How do you really feel when you do this if you are an atheist?. Do you feel like a hypocrite or do you think it's a responsibility you need to do for the family?
In reply to Al Evans:
it's a social event for me, so regardless of faith if I am invited and would like to go I do. I might not pray though or sing.
it's a social event for me, so regardless of faith if I am invited and would like to go I do. I might not pray though or sing.
In reply to Al Evans:
Yeah I do what I'm told to avoid upsetting people. I'm not big on formality and ceremony in general, so I tend sit/stand/make smalltalk with a fair degree of forced politeness mixed with social awkwardness. When there's any talk of god going on I'm internally rolling my eyes and thinking 'what a load of crap' to myself, but I do my best not to let it show. Anyone who knows me well knows exactly what I'm thinking anyway, and for the others, it's of no interest...
Yeah I do what I'm told to avoid upsetting people. I'm not big on formality and ceremony in general, so I tend sit/stand/make smalltalk with a fair degree of forced politeness mixed with social awkwardness. When there's any talk of god going on I'm internally rolling my eyes and thinking 'what a load of crap' to myself, but I do my best not to let it show. Anyone who knows me well knows exactly what I'm thinking anyway, and for the others, it's of no interest...
In reply to Al Evans:
No problem going to christenings. Weddings and funeral, though I don't join in the singing. But I did refuse to go down to Surrey for a first communion, which didn't go down well with my sister
No problem going to christenings. Weddings and funeral, though I don't join in the singing. But I did refuse to go down to Surrey for a first communion, which didn't go down well with my sister
In reply to gd303uk:
I guess the real question is how much hypocrisy are you willing to put up with for a quiet life?
I guess the real question is how much hypocrisy are you willing to put up with for a quiet life?
In reply to Al Evans:
I go along saying 'F you God' in my head.
They invited me, not you, that's why I'm here.
I go along saying 'F you God' in my head.
They invited me, not you, that's why I'm here.
In reply to Al Evans:
When listening to a typical sermon full of rhetorical questions it is fun to pretend you are a US lawyer and internally keep a count of how many times you could have validly objected if they said the same stuff in court.
"Objection - Assumes facts not in evidence" is a good one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_objections_(law)
When listening to a typical sermon full of rhetorical questions it is fun to pretend you are a US lawyer and internally keep a count of how many times you could have validly objected if they said the same stuff in court.
"Objection - Assumes facts not in evidence" is a good one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_objections_(law)
In reply to Al Evans:
You are attending an event based on somebody else's beliefs rather than claiming to share that belief system.
You are attending an event based on somebody else's beliefs rather than claiming to share that belief system.
Post edited at 22:36
In reply to Al Evans:
Nailed it.
We carry on these "ceremonies" out of tradition, or is it lack of an alternative. I want no god bothering at all when I go, a decent wake would be fine, but as I'll no longer exist I couldn't give a toss really.
> I guess the real question is how much hypocrisy are you willing to put up with for a quiet life?
Nailed it.
We carry on these "ceremonies" out of tradition, or is it lack of an alternative. I want no god bothering at all when I go, a decent wake would be fine, but as I'll no longer exist I couldn't give a toss really.
In reply to Al Evans:
If I've been invited to a wedding or a funeral, then it's fair to say that that person is/was quite dear to me. So I'll join in with their preferred celebration wholeheartedly, because it's important to them and/or their family.
As a lifelong atheist, I'd love to swear at the vicar and look dead cool, but actually these moments aren't about me. And if I didn't consider the person at the centre of it all to be worthy of my time, what would that say about me?
Bit scrapey, Al.......
Martin
If I've been invited to a wedding or a funeral, then it's fair to say that that person is/was quite dear to me. So I'll join in with their preferred celebration wholeheartedly, because it's important to them and/or their family.
As a lifelong atheist, I'd love to swear at the vicar and look dead cool, but actually these moments aren't about me. And if I didn't consider the person at the centre of it all to be worthy of my time, what would that say about me?
Bit scrapey, Al.......
Martin
In reply to Al Evans:
Is it hypocrasy to and share a special day with friends whether its a sad day or not? You don't have to listen to all the drivel to respect a friend... If you didn't tell them what you thought before they died, then that might be hypocritical, but not saying goodbye or congratuations...
Is it hypocrasy to and share a special day with friends whether its a sad day or not? You don't have to listen to all the drivel to respect a friend... If you didn't tell them what you thought before they died, then that might be hypocritical, but not saying goodbye or congratuations...
In reply to Al Evans:
I quite enjoy going to church now and again. My first husband was catholic and used to go every week and I would join him now and again, and my mum goes every week and sometimes I'll go with her. They both knew that I didn't believe in god, so I didn't feel hypocritical. I join in with the singing, because I enjoy it and they usually need a bit more bulk! But I don't say the spoken words.
I tend to listen to what is said and think about if it applies to my own philosophy of life or not. I was brought up as a christian and to think of christianity as a lovely, kind, good thing, and am often quite surprised at how much of what is said seems quite harmful to me.
I particularly don't like the bits where everyone is told that they are sinners and that the only hope for redemption is to beg for forgiveness. Can you imagine if that was taught in schools as fact? (I know it probably is in some schools). I think that is a very harmful message to be giving people.
But other bits follow my own philosophy more closely and I also think about the times these things happened in.
I went to a memorial service for a friend who was an atheist, and I liked the way they were going on about how he was in heaven now... Was he??!! Why didn't they believe that he was burning in hell, given his well known total lack of belief in god?!! (His actual funeral was not religious, but I guess the religious among them wanted to do something religious afterwards).
I see it as no more hypocritical than talking as though father christmas is actually real, or playing with a child and pretending that their teddy bear is actually alive. If anyone asked me about my beliefs, I would just tell them that I don't believe.
I quite enjoy going to church now and again. My first husband was catholic and used to go every week and I would join him now and again, and my mum goes every week and sometimes I'll go with her. They both knew that I didn't believe in god, so I didn't feel hypocritical. I join in with the singing, because I enjoy it and they usually need a bit more bulk! But I don't say the spoken words.
I tend to listen to what is said and think about if it applies to my own philosophy of life or not. I was brought up as a christian and to think of christianity as a lovely, kind, good thing, and am often quite surprised at how much of what is said seems quite harmful to me.
I particularly don't like the bits where everyone is told that they are sinners and that the only hope for redemption is to beg for forgiveness. Can you imagine if that was taught in schools as fact? (I know it probably is in some schools). I think that is a very harmful message to be giving people.
But other bits follow my own philosophy more closely and I also think about the times these things happened in.
I went to a memorial service for a friend who was an atheist, and I liked the way they were going on about how he was in heaven now... Was he??!! Why didn't they believe that he was burning in hell, given his well known total lack of belief in god?!! (His actual funeral was not religious, but I guess the religious among them wanted to do something religious afterwards).
I see it as no more hypocritical than talking as though father christmas is actually real, or playing with a child and pretending that their teddy bear is actually alive. If anyone asked me about my beliefs, I would just tell them that I don't believe.
In reply to Al Evans:
I do it for the family and friends. I do not join in any prayers so do not consider myself a hypocrite. I just attend as a mark of respect for others.
I do it for the family and friends. I do not join in any prayers so do not consider myself a hypocrite. I just attend as a mark of respect for others.
In reply to Al Evans:
Weddings and funerals; I'm unlikely to be invited to a seriously religious one. The last CofE wedding I went to had a great vicar who told the audience that he didn't want anyone to pray or sing if it would make them uncomfortable but hoped people would enjoy participating. I thought that was a great approach. Always willing to attend a friends special day, won't bow or mumble the prayers and I generally keep out of the sing song. Always listen to the preachers speaking, strip away the god/god/death/god and there can be interesting commentary or thought. Sometimes.
I do get seriously wigged out listening to large groups of people subserviently droning through the Lord's Prayer though!
Now, indoctrination of younglings - christening or conformation etc - not on your nelly. No. Not going. Totally different kettle of fish.
Weddings and funerals; I'm unlikely to be invited to a seriously religious one. The last CofE wedding I went to had a great vicar who told the audience that he didn't want anyone to pray or sing if it would make them uncomfortable but hoped people would enjoy participating. I thought that was a great approach. Always willing to attend a friends special day, won't bow or mumble the prayers and I generally keep out of the sing song. Always listen to the preachers speaking, strip away the god/god/death/god and there can be interesting commentary or thought. Sometimes.
I do get seriously wigged out listening to large groups of people subserviently droning through the Lord's Prayer though!
Now, indoctrination of younglings - christening or conformation etc - not on your nelly. No. Not going. Totally different kettle of fish.
Post edited at 08:40
In reply to Lusk:
You swear at imaginary people in your head?
> I go along saying 'F you God' in my head.
> They invited me, not you, that's why I'm here.
You swear at imaginary people in your head?
In reply to Al Evans:
I find that one of the advantages of being an atheist is that i simply don't get excited by this nonsense, and certainly don't have these internal struggles to deal with.
I go there, find the ceremony interesting and culturally meaningful and it goes in one ear, out the other
I find that one of the advantages of being an atheist is that i simply don't get excited by this nonsense, and certainly don't have these internal struggles to deal with.
I go there, find the ceremony interesting and culturally meaningful and it goes in one ear, out the other
In reply to Al Evans:
I wonder if it works the other way around. Would a Christian that is against gay marriage (because the big book says it is bad) go to a wedding of a gay couple? Or are atheists just more relaxed and accepting when it comes to going to a religious ceremony?
I wonder if it works the other way around. Would a Christian that is against gay marriage (because the big book says it is bad) go to a wedding of a gay couple? Or are atheists just more relaxed and accepting when it comes to going to a religious ceremony?
Post edited at 09:33
In reply to Al Evans:
My attitude is 'live and let live'. An exception is when it concerns children as I think each individual should make a conscious decision when he or she is an adult whether or not to believe. And when the priest/vicar/rabbi starts giving it loads about God and redemption etc I am reminded that Richard Dawkins gets sackfuls of letters from such people saying that they have stopped believing but have to keep it quiet because they need the job to pay for the family/mortgage/pension. Maybe some really believe it. It's hard to say.
My attitude is 'live and let live'. An exception is when it concerns children as I think each individual should make a conscious decision when he or she is an adult whether or not to believe. And when the priest/vicar/rabbi starts giving it loads about God and redemption etc I am reminded that Richard Dawkins gets sackfuls of letters from such people saying that they have stopped believing but have to keep it quiet because they need the job to pay for the family/mortgage/pension. Maybe some really believe it. It's hard to say.
Post edited at 12:15
In reply to Pekkie:
I gather that's very much the case in the USA. If you admit publically to being an atheist you can kiss good by to most career propects
> Richard Dawkins gets sackfuls of letters from such people saying that they have stopped believing but have to keep it quiet because they need the job to pay for the family/mortgage/pension.
I gather that's very much the case in the USA. If you admit publically to being an atheist you can kiss good by to most career propects
Post edited at 15:14
In reply to Al Evans:
Believe me, it's a lot easier than going to a Country & Western concert with your in-laws.
Believe me, it's a lot easier than going to a Country & Western concert with your in-laws.
In reply to Pekkie:
Sorry for asking a provocative question , but does this apply both ways ?
Christian parents should refrain from teaching their kids that the earth is 6000 years old , which has been described as child abuse . I'm fine with that .
But should overtly atheist parents ( as opposed to agnostics or fence sitters ) teach the logical implications of atheism ? That there is ''no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.'' (Richard Dawkins )
Is this a positive message to share with youngsters ?
Is it actually possible to have an upbringing free from ideology and values of any kind ? If not , then aren't all parents abusing their children by imposing a set of ideas or values on them, at a stage in their life when they cannot critically evaluate evidence or philosophy ?
> An exception is when it concerns children as I think each individual should make a conscious decision when he or she is an adult whether or not to believe.
Sorry for asking a provocative question , but does this apply both ways ?
Christian parents should refrain from teaching their kids that the earth is 6000 years old , which has been described as child abuse . I'm fine with that .
But should overtly atheist parents ( as opposed to agnostics or fence sitters ) teach the logical implications of atheism ? That there is ''no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.'' (Richard Dawkins )
Is this a positive message to share with youngsters ?
Is it actually possible to have an upbringing free from ideology and values of any kind ? If not , then aren't all parents abusing their children by imposing a set of ideas or values on them, at a stage in their life when they cannot critically evaluate evidence or philosophy ?
In reply to SethChili:
I suppose parents could teach their children about the different faiths in the world, and about the different positive ways of acting and treating one another which they have in common, and which humanism has parallels with?
There's no angle of abuse to be found in teaching about being peaceful and kind, I wouldn't have thought.
I suppose parents could teach their children about the different faiths in the world, and about the different positive ways of acting and treating one another which they have in common, and which humanism has parallels with?
There's no angle of abuse to be found in teaching about being peaceful and kind, I wouldn't have thought.
Post edited at 18:58
In reply to Al Evans:
I've not only attended weddings and funerals and christenings, but signed up to be a godparent [1].
My view is whether the invisible friend in the sky exists or not, there's a shed load in most religious texts about being nice to each other and treating people well [2], and I'll happily sign up to that. Even Old Testament ten commandments are pretty much A-OK by me (the latter 7, natch).
[1] We discussed this with the parents and said was it a problem that we were not religious. The Mum is a vicar, said said that she could probably handle the God bit, but that we were morally upstanding, good people, and good friends, and if anything happened to her or her hubby then she knew that her kids would be in safe hands.
[2] Whilst smiting anyone who doesn't believe in the right invisible friend, naturally.
I've not only attended weddings and funerals and christenings, but signed up to be a godparent [1].
My view is whether the invisible friend in the sky exists or not, there's a shed load in most religious texts about being nice to each other and treating people well [2], and I'll happily sign up to that. Even Old Testament ten commandments are pretty much A-OK by me (the latter 7, natch).
[1] We discussed this with the parents and said was it a problem that we were not religious. The Mum is a vicar, said said that she could probably handle the God bit, but that we were morally upstanding, good people, and good friends, and if anything happened to her or her hubby then she knew that her kids would be in safe hands.
[2] Whilst smiting anyone who doesn't believe in the right invisible friend, naturally.
Post edited at 18:59
In reply to Trangia:
I think that might be a little overblown. I was very openly atheist in the US and I never had a problem. To be fair though, the bible belt might be very different.
> I gather that's very much the case in the USA. If you admit publically to being an atheist you can kiss good by to most career propects
I think that might be a little overblown. I was very openly atheist in the US and I never had a problem. To be fair though, the bible belt might be very different.
In reply to stroppygob:
We don't have to carry them on, a relative's funeral recently wasn't religious in any way at all. I don't see why as a non believer I'd be being a hypocrite to go to a Christian (or whatever) funeral.
Why would believers and non believers be hypocrites to go to a wedding or funeral where they don't share the (lack of) beliefs?
I don't see the hypocrisy at all...
> Nailed it.
> We carry on these "ceremonies" out of tradition, or is it lack of an alternative. I want no god bothering at all when I go, a decent wake would be fine, but as I'll no longer exist I couldn't give a toss really.
We don't have to carry them on, a relative's funeral recently wasn't religious in any way at all. I don't see why as a non believer I'd be being a hypocrite to go to a Christian (or whatever) funeral.
Why would believers and non believers be hypocrites to go to a wedding or funeral where they don't share the (lack of) beliefs?
I don't see the hypocrisy at all...
Post edited at 19:28
In reply to SethChili:
First, the "child abuse" comments (I presume you're referring to Dawkins's comments on this) were not about any and all religious upbringing, but specifically about scaring children with notions of hell (in ways that the kid actually believes it) and similar noxious parts of some religions. Telling kids that they are miserable sinners and saddling them with "Catholic guilt" for life could also be regarded as abusive.
Second, you're right that no parent can bring up a child without imparting many of their ideas and values, but what a parent can do is to inform the child of areas where adult opinions differ, and they can encourage the child to explore these ideas, seeking opinions from wider than just their own parents, and to have a think about things for themselves.
Thirdly,
That comment is only about *nature*, saying that nature is blind, pitiless and indifferent. It is not saying that about *people*. And, yes, I do see it as a positive message to share with youngsters. "Humans have to look out for each other, because no-one else will".
> If not , then aren't all parents abusing their children by imposing a set of ideas or values on them,
First, the "child abuse" comments (I presume you're referring to Dawkins's comments on this) were not about any and all religious upbringing, but specifically about scaring children with notions of hell (in ways that the kid actually believes it) and similar noxious parts of some religions. Telling kids that they are miserable sinners and saddling them with "Catholic guilt" for life could also be regarded as abusive.
Second, you're right that no parent can bring up a child without imparting many of their ideas and values, but what a parent can do is to inform the child of areas where adult opinions differ, and they can encourage the child to explore these ideas, seeking opinions from wider than just their own parents, and to have a think about things for themselves.
Thirdly,
> That there is ''no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.'' (Richard Dawkins )
> Is this a positive message to share with youngsters ?
> Is this a positive message to share with youngsters ?
That comment is only about *nature*, saying that nature is blind, pitiless and indifferent. It is not saying that about *people*. And, yes, I do see it as a positive message to share with youngsters. "Humans have to look out for each other, because no-one else will".
In reply to Al Evans:
The only one of those I have issue with is Christening. People committing to each other for life, or people coming together to celebrate a life well-lived, or to share the pain at a tragic one, isn't anything to do with religion.
> Most of us atheists would probably attend a funeral, most a wedding, maybe a christening. How do you really feel when you do this if you are an atheist?. Do you feel like a hypocrite or do you think it's a responsibility you need to do for the family?
The only one of those I have issue with is Christening. People committing to each other for life, or people coming together to celebrate a life well-lived, or to share the pain at a tragic one, isn't anything to do with religion.
In reply to Al Evans:
At my uncle's funeral, the vicar was describing how he was at peace, in heaven etc. Rationally I was grateful for her words of kindness, but emotionally I was raging about all the nonsense she was spouting. Interesting it was that way around.
At my uncle's funeral, the vicar was describing how he was at peace, in heaven etc. Rationally I was grateful for her words of kindness, but emotionally I was raging about all the nonsense she was spouting. Interesting it was that way around.
In reply to Al Evans:
As much as anyone tries to tell us we don't know if there is life after death, god squad says yes, non-believers say no. Both camps are exactly the same which is believers in something they cannot prove. Live and let live and allowing people the freedom to express their beliefs is the way I see it.
As much as anyone tries to tell us we don't know if there is life after death, god squad says yes, non-believers say no. Both camps are exactly the same which is believers in something they cannot prove. Live and let live and allowing people the freedom to express their beliefs is the way I see it.
In reply to Jonathan Emett:
At a certain funeral I attended it wasn't the clergy which made me rage - but the undertakers. Commerce
At a certain funeral I attended it wasn't the clergy which made me rage - but the undertakers. Commerce
In reply to Lusk:
Wow, you can't seriously be talking, in your head, to somebody else's imaginary friend!
Wow, you can't seriously be talking, in your head, to somebody else's imaginary friend!
In reply to Bloodfire:
It would be interesting to know what percentage of atheists avoid use of or calling on the name of god ( in its many forms ) - do any exist? Most give away unconscious recognition of an unknown deity in the subconscious
It would be interesting to know what percentage of atheists avoid use of or calling on the name of god ( in its many forms ) - do any exist? Most give away unconscious recognition of an unknown deity in the subconscious
Post edited at 08:20
In reply to Al Evans:
I have a religious faith which to be honest waxes and wanes. I was hugely impressed with the first humanist funeral I attended although I was strangely anxious beforehand. I guess I was fearing an anti-religious experience. Everything that the "celebrant" said fitted with my own belief system and I was quite moved that there was a quiet period in the "service" when those of a religious persuasion were encouraged to reflect in their own way - pray ?
I guess this is a reverse way of repeating what others have said, that regardless of your beliefs, genuine Christian teachings provide a good template for living a life which respects others and the world we inhabit but having a faith does not necessarily make you a better person.
As for hypocricy, there is much about my Roman Catholic religion that saddens and embarasses me but I am able to separate it from my faith. The Church is also embarassed by much of this such as the excesses that have crept in around first communions etc.
I am really pleased to see some respectful and objective comments on religious issues on here lately , to balance the more bigotted views that often prevail.
I have a religious faith which to be honest waxes and wanes. I was hugely impressed with the first humanist funeral I attended although I was strangely anxious beforehand. I guess I was fearing an anti-religious experience. Everything that the "celebrant" said fitted with my own belief system and I was quite moved that there was a quiet period in the "service" when those of a religious persuasion were encouraged to reflect in their own way - pray ?
I guess this is a reverse way of repeating what others have said, that regardless of your beliefs, genuine Christian teachings provide a good template for living a life which respects others and the world we inhabit but having a faith does not necessarily make you a better person.
As for hypocricy, there is much about my Roman Catholic religion that saddens and embarasses me but I am able to separate it from my faith. The Church is also embarassed by much of this such as the excesses that have crept in around first communions etc.
I am really pleased to see some respectful and objective comments on religious issues on here lately , to balance the more bigotted views that often prevail.
In reply to Al Evans:
Yep
I am atheist, my wife is a somewhat non practicing lapsed Catholic but I knew fairly early on in our relationship that if we were to marry it would be in a church as that is what she has been brought up to believe. I could have kicked off and made a fuss about it but I chose the path of least resistance (although as a compromise I demanded that if I was going to basically stand up in front of my friends and family and be a hypocrite she would have to first get married in Vegas by Elvis).
To get married in a catholic church you have to do a pre wedding marriage course run by the church, and I have to confess some of the shite they spouted in that made my piss boil and I very nearly walked out.
Yep
I am atheist, my wife is a somewhat non practicing lapsed Catholic but I knew fairly early on in our relationship that if we were to marry it would be in a church as that is what she has been brought up to believe. I could have kicked off and made a fuss about it but I chose the path of least resistance (although as a compromise I demanded that if I was going to basically stand up in front of my friends and family and be a hypocrite she would have to first get married in Vegas by Elvis).
To get married in a catholic church you have to do a pre wedding marriage course run by the church, and I have to confess some of the shite they spouted in that made my piss boil and I very nearly walked out.
In reply to Al Evans:
I don't feel like a hypocrite at all. I go because I'm invited and want to be with my friends or family. If it happens to be in a beautiful historical building with a pointy roof and some bells, so much the better.
I don't feel like a hypocrite at all. I go because I'm invited and want to be with my friends or family. If it happens to be in a beautiful historical building with a pointy roof and some bells, so much the better.
In reply to The Mystery Toad:
I'l bite.
Both camps aren't exactly the same. Camp A says 'there is life after death', camp B says 'I don't believe your claim that there is life after death'. One is making a claim for which there is no good evidence, the other is rejecting the claim based on the lack of evidence. One has a burden of proof, the other is the default position in light of the un-met burden of proof.
> As much as anyone tries to tell us we don't know if there is life after death, god squad says yes, non-believers say no. Both camps are exactly the same which is believers in something they cannot prove. Live and let live and allowing people the freedom to express their beliefs is the way I see it.
I'l bite.
Both camps aren't exactly the same. Camp A says 'there is life after death', camp B says 'I don't believe your claim that there is life after death'. One is making a claim for which there is no good evidence, the other is rejecting the claim based on the lack of evidence. One has a burden of proof, the other is the default position in light of the un-met burden of proof.
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