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My girlfriend's family cat has been missing for a week. Someone has just heard her wailing from a garage used for storage across the road. It seems like she must have wandered in there and been locked in by accident. Problem is it is locked and there is no way of telling when the owner of the garage will be back. Her family have been able to get a few morsels of food into the garage through a tiny hole, but they are having trouble getting water in. I have made a few suggestions e.g. ice cubes and siphoning water from a bucket through a tube into the hole, and they are trying a few things to get food and water to the cat.
In a situation where a pet's life is in danger, is there a legal way to force an entry in this situation?
Would a locksmith legally be allowed to pick the lock in this situation?
Anyone got any other suggestions?
Post edited at 22:22
In reply to Chris Sansum:
I would think there is a legal way to force entry, but I am no expert.
Could try the RSPCA? They would likely know if there is a way. Their inspectors don't have any special powers, but they do know what they can do within the law.
Edit: and if an RSPCA inspector smashed the door down, then the cat is safe and any legal problems belong to them...
I would think there is a legal way to force entry, but I am no expert.
Could try the RSPCA? They would likely know if there is a way. Their inspectors don't have any special powers, but they do know what they can do within the law.
Edit: and if an RSPCA inspector smashed the door down, then the cat is safe and any legal problems belong to them...
Post edited at 22:32
In reply to Jack B:
They called the RSPCA. They don't have anyone available until tomorrow. Since cat has been stuck for a week the family are keen to get the cat out asap, before it dies of thirst and hunger...
They called the RSPCA. They don't have anyone available until tomorrow. Since cat has been stuck for a week the family are keen to get the cat out asap, before it dies of thirst and hunger...
In reply to Chris Sansum:
I would contact the police. They work closely with the RSPCA for animal issues, and would be able to do the relevant stuff legally, eg. possibly force entry with a police officer present.
I would contact the police. They work closely with the RSPCA for animal issues, and would be able to do the relevant stuff legally, eg. possibly force entry with a police officer present.
In reply to Chris Sansum:
If you care about the cat that much force it open,and to hell with the consequences.
If you care about the cat that much force it open,and to hell with the consequences.
In reply to Chris Sansum:
Can't you pour water in through a tube? It will form a puddle which the cat can lap up if its thirsty enough. Could they put some of those solid cat "biscuits" (quite small things) under the door and push them through with a ruler or suchlike?
Can't you pour water in through a tube? It will form a puddle which the cat can lap up if its thirsty enough. Could they put some of those solid cat "biscuits" (quite small things) under the door and push them through with a ruler or suchlike?
In reply to Chris Sansum:
Crowbar, right now. Buy them a new door if they complain.
If they really don't want to do that, drill the tiny hole out to a decent size so you can at least get water in there. But if it were me, it'd just be the crowbar.
Crowbar, right now. Buy them a new door if they complain.
If they really don't want to do that, drill the tiny hole out to a decent size so you can at least get water in there. But if it were me, it'd just be the crowbar.
In reply to pec:
I made the tube suggestion, although I'm not totally clear from their description what the hole is like that they pushed the food through. It sounds like a very small hole.
I made the tube suggestion, although I'm not totally clear from their description what the hole is like that they pushed the food through. It sounds like a very small hole.
In reply to Chris Sansum:
Sounds like they are getting some food and water in. Hopefully the RSPCA will be able to help out tomorrow...
Sounds like they are getting some food and water in. Hopefully the RSPCA will be able to help out tomorrow...
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:
You could find yourself facing criminal charges for breaking in to the garage, attempted theft or somesuch, especially if you can't prove there actually was a cat in there.
Cats are hardy creatures, they can survive a while without food, if you can get some water below the door it will survive.
> Crowbar, right now. Buy them a new door if they complain.>
You could find yourself facing criminal charges for breaking in to the garage, attempted theft or somesuch, especially if you can't prove there actually was a cat in there.
Cats are hardy creatures, they can survive a while without food, if you can get some water below the door it will survive.
In reply to Chris Sansum:
Whilst no doubt unpleasant, cats are quite good at surviving without food and water:
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/11497285/?GT1=9951#storyContinued
Whilst no doubt unpleasant, cats are quite good at surviving without food and water:
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/11497285/?GT1=9951#storyContinued
In reply to Chris Sansum:
If you're not willing to break in, call the police. They'll be able to trace the owner of the garage a lot easier than most others!
If it helps, you can break the door and as long as you're willing to pay for any damage you can't be prosecuted.
Lawful excuse for criminal damage under section 17 of the Police and Criminal Damage act 1984 'saving life or limb or preventing serious damage to property'
Cats as it happens, are classed as property.
If you're not willing to break in, call the police. They'll be able to trace the owner of the garage a lot easier than most others!
If it helps, you can break the door and as long as you're willing to pay for any damage you can't be prosecuted.
Lawful excuse for criminal damage under section 17 of the Police and Criminal Damage act 1984 'saving life or limb or preventing serious damage to property'
Cats as it happens, are classed as property.
In reply to Chris Sansum:
Any joy? Are you in? Is the cat out?
Whether you've forced the door by now or not, you might be able to use the land registry online to identify the owner of the garage. (If you're successful, it'll cost you a couple of quid.)
https://www.gov.uk/search-property-information-land-registry
There's a map search facility in there somewhere for properties (like stand-alone garages) that don't have a conventional address.
Any joy? Are you in? Is the cat out?
Whether you've forced the door by now or not, you might be able to use the land registry online to identify the owner of the garage. (If you're successful, it'll cost you a couple of quid.)
https://www.gov.uk/search-property-information-land-registry
There's a map search facility in there somewhere for properties (like stand-alone garages) that don't have a conventional address.
In reply to Chris Sansumefinatly keep getting water and food to the cat,my concern is it could also be injured,i personally would try to get in and pay for any damage,then contact the police and i would also expect to get arrested,but i would do that for my cat.Pretty disgusted with rspca but not surprised.Call police first,tell them the cat has been trapped for a week and needs urgent attention.
In reply to Chris Sansum:
Phone the polis and they can check if they have a key holder registered and get him out.
There is no way in hell the cops will walk away with Schrodinger stuck inside - Imagine the bad press. Would you want to be the cop that didn't bother their arse and the cat pegged it? They'll get it out.
Phone the polis and they can check if they have a key holder registered and get him out.
There is no way in hell the cops will walk away with Schrodinger stuck inside - Imagine the bad press. Would you want to be the cop that didn't bother their arse and the cat pegged it? They'll get it out.
In reply to Removed User:
It sounds, from the way he's phrased things, as if the cat isn't in the same place as Chris.
It sounds, from the way he's phrased things, as if the cat isn't in the same place as Chris.
In reply to dan bulman:
Do none of the other neighbours have a spare key, for emergencies. We all do around here.
You contact the police before breaking in otherwise you could end up with a criminal record. Is it definitely your cat?
Do none of the other neighbours have a spare key, for emergencies. We all do around here.
You contact the police before breaking in otherwise you could end up with a criminal record. Is it definitely your cat?
In reply to Chris Sansum:
If your not willing / able to break in I'd least drill a hole so that you can put food and water in easily.
Rather than smash the door/locks (problem to make the garage secure again afterwards?), I'd be thinking about cutting a cat sized hole - not hard and easier to patch / make secure afterwards. A 6" hole would be more than enough for a keen moggie to get out of! Ease of cutting would depend on what the door is made of though and tools available though.
I'd also probably make the police aware I'd done it so that they don't end up wasting time investigating it if the owner reports it as a breaking when they get back, not knowing why it was done.
I would think that most people would be understanding of you putting a hole in their door to rescue a pet.
Cheers,
Stu
If your not willing / able to break in I'd least drill a hole so that you can put food and water in easily.
Rather than smash the door/locks (problem to make the garage secure again afterwards?), I'd be thinking about cutting a cat sized hole - not hard and easier to patch / make secure afterwards. A 6" hole would be more than enough for a keen moggie to get out of! Ease of cutting would depend on what the door is made of though and tools available though.
I'd also probably make the police aware I'd done it so that they don't end up wasting time investigating it if the owner reports it as a breaking when they get back, not knowing why it was done.
I would think that most people would be understanding of you putting a hole in their door to rescue a pet.
Cheers,
Stu
In reply to goldmember:
The law is not as stupid as people seem to think it is. You will not have committed a crime; necessity is a defence to pretty much everything. It would, regardless, not be in the public interest to prosecute.
> You contact the police before breaking in otherwise you could end up with a criminal record. Is it definitely your cat?
The law is not as stupid as people seem to think it is. You will not have committed a crime; necessity is a defence to pretty much everything. It would, regardless, not be in the public interest to prosecute.
In reply to Chris Sansum:
If you're worried about getting water in then throw a bucket full at the bottom of the door, plenty will get in.
Assuming RSPCA/Police are unable or unwilling to help I'd just call some locksmiths, see if they'll do it to get the cat out. If they wont then call some more and omit to mention the ownership and the cat.
If that fails: 4" Holesaw where it'll do least harm and leave a note to explain what happened, deal with the fallout later.
jk
If you're worried about getting water in then throw a bucket full at the bottom of the door, plenty will get in.
Assuming RSPCA/Police are unable or unwilling to help I'd just call some locksmiths, see if they'll do it to get the cat out. If they wont then call some more and omit to mention the ownership and the cat.
If that fails: 4" Holesaw where it'll do least harm and leave a note to explain what happened, deal with the fallout later.
jk
In reply to Chris Sansum:
I'm pretty stunned that this cat is apparently still stuck in there. Martin will obviously know more about this than I, but I'm fairly sure that dehydration is really quite dangerous for cats - they have pretty fragile kidneys at the best of times and even if this episode doesn't actually kill the cat, I suspect it'll have a life-shortening effect.
Look - in quick succession call a locksmith (who I don't think will open it because you can't show it's yours, but you will want to be able to say that you tried everything), the RSPCA (who will, I suspect, be rubbish and tell you that an inspector will come out next week), and then the police, asking if they want to send a PSCO to be present when you open it. This will take 30 minutes, max. Then open the bloody door/cut a hole in it/whatever.
IANAL but I would be utterly amazed if the CPS wanted to prosecute given your defence will be that you were reasonably sure the cat was suffering and in danger of death. You certainly have nothing to fear from a civil suit as you can just offer to pay for the damages.
I'm pretty stunned that this cat is apparently still stuck in there. Martin will obviously know more about this than I, but I'm fairly sure that dehydration is really quite dangerous for cats - they have pretty fragile kidneys at the best of times and even if this episode doesn't actually kill the cat, I suspect it'll have a life-shortening effect.
Look - in quick succession call a locksmith (who I don't think will open it because you can't show it's yours, but you will want to be able to say that you tried everything), the RSPCA (who will, I suspect, be rubbish and tell you that an inspector will come out next week), and then the police, asking if they want to send a PSCO to be present when you open it. This will take 30 minutes, max. Then open the bloody door/cut a hole in it/whatever.
IANAL but I would be utterly amazed if the CPS wanted to prosecute given your defence will be that you were reasonably sure the cat was suffering and in danger of death. You certainly have nothing to fear from a civil suit as you can just offer to pay for the damages.
In reply to andrewmcleod:
Their would be a heavy burden on proving that a cat inside. As others have said it you damage the door to get the cat out, and the house gets burgled afterwards. The OP could be a in a spot of trouble.
How do you know its your girlfriends cat?
Horrible situation hope the home owners return soon, cat is ok, and cat owners clean the garage, can't imagine it will be nice.
Their would be a heavy burden on proving that a cat inside. As others have said it you damage the door to get the cat out, and the house gets burgled afterwards. The OP could be a in a spot of trouble.
How do you know its your girlfriends cat?
Horrible situation hope the home owners return soon, cat is ok, and cat owners clean the garage, can't imagine it will be nice.
In reply to StuDoig:
provided you pay the £1,000 for a replacement door ..
> I would think that most people would be understanding of you putting a hole in their door to rescue a pet.
provided you pay the £1,000 for a replacement door ..
In reply to Jim Hamilton:
Only if you wreck the entire door - might only be a panel that needs replaced. But yes, no doubt you'll need to pay to make good!
Only if you wreck the entire door - might only be a panel that needs replaced. But yes, no doubt you'll need to pay to make good!
In reply to Goldmember: the defence of necessity does not require proof, just reasonable belief. Without opening the door it's not possible to prove it's your cat...
wrt a later burglary - the OP said 'garage used for storage, across the road' which makes me think this is a detached lockup, not part of a house. But regardless, I would have thought that telling the police that you have had to break the door down would put some onus on them both to inform the owner asap and advise you how to make it secure until they return?
Jim - you obviously shop at a better class of garage door emporium than I do!
wrt a later burglary - the OP said 'garage used for storage, across the road' which makes me think this is a detached lockup, not part of a house. But regardless, I would have thought that telling the police that you have had to break the door down would put some onus on them both to inform the owner asap and advise you how to make it secure until they return?
Jim - you obviously shop at a better class of garage door emporium than I do!
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:
Sounds a bit like religion.
They could advise you, but the if contents of the garage are then nicked, the onus would be on the OP
was thinking that Jim bit steep for a garage door! unless it house a nice collection of Ferrari's!
> the defence of necessity does not require proof, just reasonable belief. Without opening the door it's not possible to prove it's your cat...
Sounds a bit like religion.
> wrt a later burglary - the OP said 'garage used for storage, across the road' which makes me think this is a detached lockup, not part of a house. But regardless, I would have thought that telling the police that you have had to break the door down would put some onus on them both to inform the owner asap and advise you how to make it secure until they return?
They could advise you, but the if contents of the garage are then nicked, the onus would be on the OP
> Jim - you obviously shop at a better class of garage door emporium than I do!
was thinking that Jim bit steep for a garage door! unless it house a nice collection of Ferrari's!
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:
And the RSPCA enter the realms of Quantum physics!
> the defence of necessity does not require proof, just reasonable belief. Without opening the door it's not possible to prove it's your cat...
And the RSPCA enter the realms of Quantum physics!
In reply to goldmember:
the briefest google for replacement garage doors costs - don't forget the labour !
the briefest google for replacement garage doors costs - don't forget the labour !
In reply to Chris Sansum:
I was in a similar situation many years ago with one of my cats. He was a real wanderer and accidentally got locked in a flat below mine overnight. From outside, I could see him sitting on the bay window cill, wailing, but the property was at that time had been rented out previously and was unoccupied.
I phoned the police to see if they had a note of the registered owner who I could contact, but they said no they didn't, "...don't you think that would be a bit 'Big Brother'?"
Fortunately, the owner came back early the next morning and my cat popped in through our cat flap for his usual breakfast, but I was going to contact the factor to get the owners details.
If it were me in your situation, I'd used a jigsaw to cut an L-shaped flap in the (metal?) garage door which I could prise out and create an exit for the cat, then shove the flap back into place.
I was in a similar situation many years ago with one of my cats. He was a real wanderer and accidentally got locked in a flat below mine overnight. From outside, I could see him sitting on the bay window cill, wailing, but the property was at that time had been rented out previously and was unoccupied.
I phoned the police to see if they had a note of the registered owner who I could contact, but they said no they didn't, "...don't you think that would be a bit 'Big Brother'?"
Fortunately, the owner came back early the next morning and my cat popped in through our cat flap for his usual breakfast, but I was going to contact the factor to get the owners details.
If it were me in your situation, I'd used a jigsaw to cut an L-shaped flap in the (metal?) garage door which I could prise out and create an exit for the cat, then shove the flap back into place.
In reply to Chris Sansum:
I wonder how the law might support a claim that the fault here was that of the idiot who locked my cat in and then disappeared for a week?
Like I said, IANAL, but if you had no choice but to break the door down to save the cat, are you then responsible for the costs? You didn't shut it in there, after all.
I wonder how the law might support a claim that the fault here was that of the idiot who locked my cat in and then disappeared for a week?
Like I said, IANAL, but if you had no choice but to break the door down to save the cat, are you then responsible for the costs? You didn't shut it in there, after all.
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:
Why in the world would a guy be checking if a cat was in his lock-up, particularly when he doesn't own the cat?! Perhapse it would have been more sensible for the owner to take responsibility for their pet (just putting it out there).
Why in the world would a guy be checking if a cat was in his lock-up, particularly when he doesn't own the cat?! Perhapse it would have been more sensible for the owner to take responsibility for their pet (just putting it out there).
In reply to Fraser:
I think it probably would be.
But at risk of repeating myself (I already posted this above) - in most cases the Land Registry does have a note of who the owner is, and it only takes a couple of minutes (and a couple of quid) to search their database online:
https://www.gov.uk/search-property-information-land-registry
> I phoned the police to see if they had a note of the registered owner who I could contact, but they said no they didn't, "...don't you think that would be a bit 'Big Brother'?"
I think it probably would be.
But at risk of repeating myself (I already posted this above) - in most cases the Land Registry does have a note of who the owner is, and it only takes a couple of minutes (and a couple of quid) to search their database online:
https://www.gov.uk/search-property-information-land-registry
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:
Idiot? Cats are reasonably well known for their stealthy behaviour... even if the law was that daft, think through the consequences of using it - one out of pocket property owner who's only way of preventing the possibility of further loss would be to make the cat disappear for good.
> I wonder how the law might support a claim that the fault here was that of the idiot who locked my cat in and then disappeared for a week?
> Like I said, IANAL, but if you had no choice but to break the door down to save the cat, are you then responsible for the costs? You didn't shut it in there, after all.
Idiot? Cats are reasonably well known for their stealthy behaviour... even if the law was that daft, think through the consequences of using it - one out of pocket property owner who's only way of preventing the possibility of further loss would be to make the cat disappear for good.
In reply to JoshOvki:
Well, it's not regarded as reasonable to keep an eye on your cat at all times of the day, is it? They are usually allowed out to roam.
OTOH, I always check there's nothing in my shed before I lock it. That does seem a reasonable thing to do (though my use of the word 'idiot' was a bit tongue in cheek, and mainly to emphasise my suggestion of a switch of responsibility).
I'm not sure if I think it's the garage owner's fault, I'm just not sure if it's really the cat owner's fault either. If it were me in this situation, I think I'd be offering 50% of the cost of a new door and a hand to fit it. Mind you, I wouldn't be wasting time pondering all this whilst the cat was still trapped.
Well, it's not regarded as reasonable to keep an eye on your cat at all times of the day, is it? They are usually allowed out to roam.
OTOH, I always check there's nothing in my shed before I lock it. That does seem a reasonable thing to do (though my use of the word 'idiot' was a bit tongue in cheek, and mainly to emphasise my suggestion of a switch of responsibility).
I'm not sure if I think it's the garage owner's fault, I'm just not sure if it's really the cat owner's fault either. If it were me in this situation, I think I'd be offering 50% of the cost of a new door and a hand to fit it. Mind you, I wouldn't be wasting time pondering all this whilst the cat was still trapped.
Post edited at 14:12
In reply to deepsoup:
This happened to me once, went on holiday and apparently the neighbour's cat was in our garage when I shut the door and left for a month. The neighbours heard it meowing and one of them drilled a small hole near the lock from which the latch could be opened with a bit if stiff wire. I didn't even notice the hole when we got back but they told us what had happened. We were glad they did it and AFAIK the little hole is still there. We've moved since.
Don't you know anyone who can open the door without too much damage? It shouldn't be too hard. As said let the police know, but after you've got moggie out in case they said no.
This happened to me once, went on holiday and apparently the neighbour's cat was in our garage when I shut the door and left for a month. The neighbours heard it meowing and one of them drilled a small hole near the lock from which the latch could be opened with a bit if stiff wire. I didn't even notice the hole when we got back but they told us what had happened. We were glad they did it and AFAIK the little hole is still there. We've moved since.
Don't you know anyone who can open the door without too much damage? It shouldn't be too hard. As said let the police know, but after you've got moggie out in case they said no.
In reply to goldmember:
You could argue you are doing the lockup owners a favour. No one needs a deceased moggy ripening up in amongst their possessions.
> You contact the police before breaking in otherwise you could end up with a criminal record. Is it definitely your cat?
You could argue you are doing the lockup owners a favour. No one needs a deceased moggy ripening up in amongst their possessions.
In reply to Chris Sansum:
Thanks all. It seems the cat is now out! Haven't heard the full details yet, just that she was very thirsty and wobbly on her feet/paws!
Thanks all. It seems the cat is now out! Haven't heard the full details yet, just that she was very thirsty and wobbly on her feet/paws!
In reply to Davvers:
I reckon the neighbourhood birds locked her up in there and are now furious at her release!
I reckon the neighbourhood birds locked her up in there and are now furious at her release!
In reply to goldmember:
Burden of proof lies with the prosecution (to prove you had intent to cause criminal damage/burglary etc.)
I suspect that if the police cut a hole in the door to get the cat out (necessary), they wouldn't pay out to fix it - it might just be 'tough luck' Sometimes things happen and no-one is at fault. I suspect you would be unable to sue for damages if it was your garage if it was necessary.
> Their would be a heavy burden on proving that a cat inside. As others have said it you damage the door to get the cat out, and the house gets burgled afterwards. The OP could be a in a spot of trouble.
Burden of proof lies with the prosecution (to prove you had intent to cause criminal damage/burglary etc.)
I suspect that if the police cut a hole in the door to get the cat out (necessary), they wouldn't pay out to fix it - it might just be 'tough luck' Sometimes things happen and no-one is at fault. I suspect you would be unable to sue for damages if it was your garage if it was necessary.
In reply to Davvers:
This has got to be troll of the year, if only it was a goat rather than a cat....
This has got to be troll of the year, if only it was a goat rather than a cat....
In reply to Chris Sansum:
Earplugs?
> My girlfriend's family cat has been missing for a week. Someone has just heard her wailing from a garage used for storage across the road.
> Anyone got any suggestions?
Earplugs?
In reply to Chris Sansum:
Her mother called up the housing association which owns the garages. They said they wouldn't be able to get hold of anyone until the next day. She then told them she would give them half an hour, after which she would be calling the RSPCA and getting them to force the garage open with the police. Four minutes later she had a call back to say they were sending someone out. After a bit of coaxing the cat came out. She was a bit wobbly but has been lapping up some milk and food and seems ok.
Her mother called up the housing association which owns the garages. They said they wouldn't be able to get hold of anyone until the next day. She then told them she would give them half an hour, after which she would be calling the RSPCA and getting them to force the garage open with the police. Four minutes later she had a call back to say they were sending someone out. After a bit of coaxing the cat came out. She was a bit wobbly but has been lapping up some milk and food and seems ok.
In reply to Chris Sansum:
Good news! And she should be back to looking bored and condescending within a day or so.
> After a bit of coaxing the cat came out. She was a bit wobbly but has been lapping up some milk and food and seems ok.
Good news! And she should be back to looking bored and condescending within a day or so.
In reply to Ramblin dave:
Clearly the staff took way to long to rescue her, so there'll be plenty of extra duties for them!
Clearly the staff took way to long to rescue her, so there'll be plenty of extra duties for them!
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