UKC

OK semi-troll hat on here, but what would you consider as an over rated route?

I'll leave the catagory as open as that for a better bun fight.

In reply to The Lemming:

The M8 at rush hour, I can't understand why it's so popular.

In reply to The Lemming:

I'll get the ball rolling:

Prophesy of Drowning on Pabbay. It's a good route for sure but it's not exactly amazing. It's the one everyone wants to do, probably because it's the one everyone has heard about it - the hype becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy as it were. The best thing about it is that it goes up next to the Great Arch, which IS an amazing feature. One of the best E2s in the country? I don't think so, it's barely E2 for a start. May be it's the soft grade, I was expecting a fantastic E2 and got what felt like a decent E1. I thought Sula on Mingulay was better, with thoughtful slab climbing followed by jugtastic roofs.

Moonraker on Berry Head - an amazing cliff but this misses out on the steep stuff and is just a wandering crack line, quite dirty and scrappy in place. Worth doing but not really a three star experience. Well, may be it is if it's clean. Dreadnought next door is amazing though, admittedly a tad harder.

Suicide Wall on Bosigran - expected a lot more of this, the best pitch is the bold 5a traverse, whereas the crux is a polished two move wonder and the whole route somehow lacks consistency. Lots of better routes on Bosigran - Bow Wall at a similar grade is much more memorable!

Coronation Street in Cheddar - it does have great positions on the upper pitches and the climbing is good but not fantastic. The cruxy bits are quite short lived and the rest is just enjoyable.

To be fair, I'm hard to please these days...

Oh and a lot of gritstone classics, they are so forgettable that I can't even remember most of them!

In reply to The Lemming:

One more - Point Five. Seriously! Possibly because we found it in fairly hacked out condition (which presumably isn't unusual) but even allowing for that it didn't feel steep or sustained enough to warrant a V 5 (despite allegedly being the benchmark at the grade) and lacked the atmosphere of a big route. We thought Orion Direct was much better - harder climbing on a couple of the pitches and a real Alpine feel to it. Thinking about pure ice routes, Cascade on Craig y Rhaeadr is also much better - a lot harder and more sustained but allegedly the same grade.

In reply to Misha:

Point Five will be disappointing unfortunately if it's stepped out (as will any other route). Great route though! Personally I was more disappointed with Orion - thought the whole 'Alpine feel' thing was a bit overblown. It's just a long route in Scotland! When I read about these things starting out I tended to imagine 300m of near vertical ice(!) but a lot of the route just felt too easy. V,4 would be a better grade for it.

In reply to The Lemming:

Extol, Dove Crag - the definitive bag of shi ...

In reply to The Lemming:

Dream of white horses. A good route, but massively over hyped.

In reply to The Lemming:

Going to get shot at dawn for this but...

I thought Cemetery Gates was over-rated. I can't really remember much about the climbing other than it was sustained but for me that compromised the variety. The lesser-known routes I climbed at Gogarth a few days later were actually more memorable.

Gargoyle Flake. Maybe I expected too much of this. A good photo opportunity but overall a little underwhelming given the final move could be so well protected. Maybe I should have climbed this when VS was my limit.

Zero Gully. Good route but is it a great route? The initial gully is good but after you've broken out right the climbing eases up. After the first pitch and a bit the difficult climbing is over. Three stars?

I actually really enjoyed Orion Face although I think I picked a lucky day when it was in really good condition but still quiet and not hooked out.

In reply to DaveR:


You should be shot for that!

My suggestions: Boomerang on Ramshaw. Hyped by the guide, but it was rubbish.
I'm also gonna say Black Slab, aka Hargreaves Original. I've led it several times, but the most recent felt.....underwhelming.

In reply to The Lemming:

The Mall at Millstone - it's dirty, grubby and there's about two nice moves on it, yet it gets Top 50 in Eastern grit? Totally puzzled by that.

In reply to Mr. Lee:


Time for me to get on it!! Not that I can ever imagine leading HVS on grit.

Disappointment:

Crackstone Rib. Great situations but the climbing just wasn't very interesting until the traverse under the finishing jugs.

In reply to DaveR:



Heresy! (And above - Coronation Street - heresy! Cemetery Gates - heresy!)

Sorry folks... no offence intended... perhaps I'll feel better after lunch.

My contribution to 'what do you consider an over-rated route': Great Slab on Cloggy.

In reply to abseil:

And how could anyone forget that other definitive overrated route: Great Western at Almscliff. It's not even the best HVS at the crag.

In reply to Bob:

So what, its a pretty amazing crag. There are so many underwhelming 3 star routes out there that are pretty dubious and raising the likes of Dream, GW etc as overrated at 3 stars is plain silly.

In reply to Offwidth:

The seemingly random splattering of stars through guidebooks is something I've railed against for a long time but regardless of that GW would (should) get a single star at most.

In reply to Offwidth:

I can see that someone who climbs above E2 could find Dream a little over rated as those people can experience that sort of exposure on any number of routes but for VS/HVS and even E1 climbers it's just plain silly to say it's not a quality route.

In the Wye Valley area there are so many crap routes with a star that it's difficult to know where to start. I did Ego Warrior, E1 with a star at Symonds Yat last week, it's contrived and on poor rock and doesn't deserve any stars and there are a bunch of starred routes on Cleeve Hill, behind Cheltenham racecourse that are downright dangerous and should be avoided at all costs.

It's also worth bearing in mind that some routes get credit for their historical significance. If that is right or wrong is another debate.

In reply to The Lemming:

Valkyrie at the Roaches - totally crap IMO

In reply to The Lemming:

I was going to suggest <insert name of universally acclaimed classic> - only worth a star at most.
But <insert name of another universally acclaimed classic> was even worse, it was shit and deserves a black spot.

In reply to The Lemming:

For a while Scavenger at Three Cliffs on the Gower kept coming near the top of "best VS" lists. I failed to see why when I did it. Yes, great location and line but the climbing was pretty rubbish.

In reply to The Lemming:

Wot no pebble routes over-hyped?

In reply to Bob:

Well Bob I respect your opinion but hardly anyone else agrees and grades are a consensus. Same goes for underwhelmed E2 leaders on Dream, its still 3 star even if its not their favourite. Simon is right, some 3 star labelled routes are actually shit. Ive even influenced some to go from 3 to none.

In reply to The Lemming:

I've always been a bit disappointed with Bridge's Route on Esk Buttress because of the way it slopes off along an easy traverse line at the end. You can instead finish up Medusa Wall which I'd contend isn't any harder than some of the lower parts of Bridge's.

In reply to The Lemming:

Via Media at Stanage Pop felt more like a no-star route than a 2-star route

In reply to The Lemming:

>

What do you mean by "open"?

In reply to The Lemming:

Manchester Buttress at Stanage Popular, I really didn't see the appeal. Climbing was ok but nothing really memorable. Hargreaves' Original was probably worth the hype but has been somewhat neutered by cams

In reply to Skyfall:

Scavenger always appears in this list. I can't see why you would say the line was rubbish, it's clearly the most obvious line of the crag, although it is very short. What makes it atmospheric is you have this wall to the right looming over you the whole way, which provides a sense of nervousness.

However, the actual climbing is rather monotonous easy slab padding which, as you say, is a bit rubbish. I think it's one of those routes which is better if VS is your limit. I thought it was great when I first led 20(!) years ago, but then as my climbing improved over the years, subsequent trips up it got me thinking it was overrated.

Then one boiling hot summer morning 10(!) years ago, I traversed in at high tide and soloed it, hiding in the shade of the corner, with nobody else within sight or earshot. It was one of the most unforgettable moments of my climbing life.

Back onto the main topic of the thread: the most overrated route in Britain is Cenotaph Corner of course!

In reply to The Lemming:

Inverted V at Stanage.

In reply to MGC:


The long-awaited Cox exit might spice it up a bit.

In reply to The Lemming:

Demo Route, I wouldn't give it one star let alone three.

In reply to The Lemming:

Birch tree wall at brimham - awkward, soft and now polished as. Not a patch on Rough Wall. The other route that we found a bit of a let down was Wreckers slab. Its just far too easy at VS, with no memorable climbing, just good positions. Strongly agree with Suicide Wall too.

In reply to Tom Last:


Well its all personal, I suppose, but for me Demo route is one of the best HS around.

In reply to The Lemming:

This might be a bit off topic, but seeing as how we're all talking about stars now; I was always told that:

1 star = good compared to the rest of the crag.
2 stars = good compared to the other routes in the area (eg Lakes, Wye valley, Northumberland).
3 stars = good compared to other routes in the rest of the country.

This always seemed sensible to me. Is it actually how they are awarded though?

In reply to The Lemming:

Any of the various routes called "Andromeda"; being a galaxy they presumably all have more than three stars. "Crab Nebula", too.

Ok, I'm going...

In reply to Offwidth:

Grades? I think you mean stars

At least grades are reasonably consistent but the star quality ratings depend on: whether you are the guidebook writer and it's your route or one of your mates; you've never climbed anywhere else; it's on X so it must be good; it's a good line; it's E5 ergo it must be good.

When assigning stars in the Eiddionyd guide I made a list of all the routes that I thought were better than average, these got a star. I then went through that subset and picked out those that were *really* good - these got another star. Finally I went through the two star routes and picked the best of the best and gave those another star.

I think I ended up with eight or so three star routes (note that Paul Jenkinson did the Cwellyn valley, I did Cwm Silyn and Cwm Trwsgl) but those eight deserve the accolade and I think will still be regarded as three star routes when the next edition comes along.

What seems to have happened is that people have got it in to their heads that unless a route has a star it isn't any good whereas the star system is there to highlight the better routes. Not all routes can be better than average! I know Alan disagrees with me on this but then he's selling guidebooks

In reply to Dave 88:

Depends who's awarding then I guess.

It would make sense to view it as an absolute scale if there was a sole arbiter for awarding stars throughout the UK.

In reply to GridNorth:


I did Main Wall this summer and thought that wasn't quite as good as people make out - like, good, but not /that/ good. I wonder if there's a bit of the opposite effect going on: I'm an HS/VS bumbly and found quite a lot of the climbing a bit insecure and not spectacularly well protected and hence somewhat nervy, whereas an HVS/E1 leader would probably find it consistently interesting but easy enough not be to bothered about the gear.

In reply to Bob:

highlight the better routes. Not all routes can be better than average! I know Alan disagrees with me on this but then he's selling guidebooks

so you have 3 steps to represent 51% ..100% quality mark but none to denote 0..59 if you had 'black holes; then you might have a nice 7 point scale
(for some definitions of average). thats not how many people read it, they see 4 levels, 0..3 (i guess eom guides have a black spot) and i am guessing
make their choices based on that.

Im sure you explain all this in the unread text at the front of the guide

In reply to The Lemming:

Some seriously over-rated routes I've done:
Cormorant Buttress West S4a *** (Swanage) Perhaps worth a star for position, but a crumbling, unpleasant route.
The Ring HS4b ** (Paviland, Gower) heavily vegetated and a very indistinct line in the lower half.
Giltar Slab Route S4a ***(Pembroke) Pleasant enough, but repetitive and overgraded, VD * more like it.

In reply to lithos:

Perhaps "average" wasn't the best word to use - "decent" might be better. I.e. "average" doesn't equate to "mean" but to "mode". Some guides do use a black spot for the truly awful and indicate with text (shock horror!) poor routes.

Starting point: ALL routes are good and worthy of attention unless otherwise stated. Routes considered better than average will have one or more stars with three stars being reserved for the very best routes.

George Orwell got it right: "four legs good, two legs better!"

In reply to The Lemming:

Two spring to mind.

The Bat, Ben Nevis. I didn't think it was a 3 star route, some good climbing, wandery, it wet and dirty.

The Migrant (winter), Coire an Lochain. Thought it was well over rated, 1 or 2 stars at the most! Still worth doing though....... Auricle I thought was much better in the same coire at the same grade.

Andy

In reply to The Lemming:

Didn't think Eagle Front lived up to the hype. All I can remember about the route is a long grassy traverse in the middle and the final corner, which was easy. The harder climbing I remember to be on the first few pitches but can't really remember much about them (and it was only last summer).

In reply to Alex the Alex:


Would it be a better route if it were graded HS (which is probably about right), or a Severe sandbag?

It's 6 weeks since I climbed it and I can still remember most of the climbing in great detail. If using the Scottish system I'd give it 4 stars

In reply to Dave 88:

This used to be the case back in day. But Rockfax invented a new style of starring where 3 stars = "good compared to rest of crag" (i.e. equivalent of 1* with the older system.

Personally I much prefer the older system.

In reply to The Lemming:

I'll throw in Grey Slap in Corrie Sputan Dearg, middle 2 pitches were fantastic (even with numb hands). The last pitch however really lets it down by:
1) It's finishing up another route
2) Doesn't feel like the logical conclusion, more like you've stepped off the route.
3) Above the chimney it peters out to a scrambly gully for c. 30m.

Still a great route, but not 3 stars.
For me, three starts means:
1) Fantastic Setting
2) logical / natural line
3) Great, continuous, climbing

I'd still give it 2 stars though as an great climb, in a fantastic location.

Cheers,

Stuart

In reply to Bob:

Punters get to vote these days on UKC and elsewhere. I think they tend to overstar slightly but Id argue not as much as the worst editors pushing their own or their mates routes. Hence I think your approach is correct for the guides you have worked on but those in the YMC did the same and GW stays at 3 stars and UKC says 3 stars for something like 100 votes without dissent so your opinion is a minority one and you need to bite the bullet on that.

In reply to Offwidth:

Never!

In reply to Alun:

Has one star ever meant "good compared to the rest of the crag"?
Wouldn't that mean you'd end up with starred routes at places like Stannington Ruffs?

In reply to Dave 88:






It's appealing in principle, but I think that in practice it makes more sense for the stars to be relative to the rest of the book. Eg when I'm leafing through East Anglian Esoterica (the definitive guide to the chalk pits, railway bridges and steep mud of Britain's flattest counties), it helps me more if some stuff at Slawston Bridge gets three stars because it's so much better than anything at Fen Ditton Railway Bridge than if nothing gets any stars because it's all shit compared to Gogarth. I already knew the latter - the former might actually be some use.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Did you ever see the old Leicester guide ?

In reply to Bob:

im not really disagreeing, i've done many good no star routes but offering a viewpoint/interpretation.

at least RF could be consistent (im not sure if they are) but i doubt the other big players are (CC (eg tremadog), BMC, FRCC ...)
within their series as they vary in the teams producing them. Vive la difference as the french probably never say

In reply to Simon Caldwell:


I think so. Not the route itself, but your experience of the route would change as you would have different expectations. Its part of what makes accurate grading useful. I guess I came in expecting something different? Also we had had about 3 hours sleep the night before, may have had something to do with it...

In reply to Bob:



This is true, but it might be easier to change the guidebooks than people's perceptions!

Keep no stars for "routes you'll only really want to do if you've tired of everything else on the crag, or for the sake of completeness - they have nothing to recommend them." Then work up from there. The more stars there are the more routes will regularly be climbed and kept in condition. There is no really agreed definition of what a 3* route is like, except that it's noticeably better than the 2* ones. Agree that this might entail bringing in 4*. Years ago I had a guide to West Penwith, possibly an Edwards production, where they had up to 5*. I'm not sure that anything got no stars. I thought it was quite useful. It's a bit like Starbucks and such like don't have a cup labelled "small".

In reply to Alun:

I don't think you actually read what I said did you? Which was:

"Yes, great location and line but the climbing was pretty rubbish."

You said:



So I think we agree

In reply to lithos:
Quite a few of the BMC team stayed common over the grit series so grades and star consistency was there. We, explicitly say no star routes can be good and most routes are worth doing unless stated otherwise. One star for us was notable quality (moves, situation, history etc) for a good crag so for instance Stannington Ruffs has no climbs with any stars. We didnt all always agree but views were given and editorial decisions made: as an example, I'd have black spots all over the Ruffs, I simply don't believe the Ruffs grades in Burb Infinity (and despite being quite adventurous, having tried to climb there once I'm never going back to find out if I'm right) and I'd have preferred a brief overview description in the guide with the full listing on the web for the deranged. What they went with was some numbered routes and the warning: "esoterica with knobs on and an edge for those with suitable masochistic tendancies". Whilst appreciating the black humour, I worry that those who wear rubber masks with ball gags for fun can lose touch with what ordinary climbers might find masochistic.

In reply to jon:

I've started referring to Cox's Leap when I meet people up there. I really hope it catches on. It should get a mention in the next guide for a start.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

What is it?

The most over rated route that i've climbed recently has to be FBD! Don't get me wrong, it was a big tick for me and is an awesome milestone in my climbing so far but that's just because of its reputation and history rather then the climbing itself which I didn't find that exciting or anything special.

In reply to Offwidth:

The straightforward and preferably nocturnal retreat from the Valkyrie stance by untying and jumping off.

Recommended by JCM in his incomprehension as to how anyone could possibly be benighted.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Ah, that jump and that old thread (from a few scrambling moves down from the pitch 1 belay). Ive seen bigger jumps down as an escape so was sort of on his side if it wasn't for the cleft you can sneak through above at about VD.

In reply to The Lemming:

great western at almscliffe

soloed it and was expecting some wonder route,was good but not 4 star

In reply to Offwidth:

Really? I know someone who fell down about 400 feet of the North Gully of Tryfan in winter conditions and escaped with a black eye, but I wouldn't recommend it as a quick retreat in the face of oncoming darkness!

In reply to Alex the Alex:


a good point, and possibly one of the reasons so many good routes are being mentioned in this thread.
If you're expecting to find one of the best routes you've ever done, and it fails to live up to that (usually unreasonable) expectation, then you can be left feeling disappointed and react too far in the opposite direction.
These days I try to approach classic routes with the expectation that they'll not live up to the hype, that way I'm less likely to be disappointed.
Mind you I'm just as likely to be climbing unstarred obscurities anyway, which are almost always better than expected

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Im not recommending it but some climbers do mad stuff and so yes Ive seen worse and didnt see it as especialy outlandish. My memory of the thread was some in the conversation deliberately misrepresented it as the much higher jump from the belay proper when it was from the scramble down at the first hard moves descending the slippery corner to a higher ground level there (great care obviously required given the landing).

In reply to The Lemming:

I've never really got on with Central Route on Hen Cloud. Perhaps I should revisit. Anyone care to speak up for it?

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Agree most of Orion is pretty straightforward and what really makes the route is that it traces an intricate line up a large face.

In reply to Mr. Lee:

Yeah, I'd agree that Cemetery Gates is a very good route with fun juggy climbing but perhaps not in the same league as the other famous routes on the Cromlech.

In reply to DaveR:

Dream has been described as a VS in an HVS setting. The climbing is good but what makes the route (especially if you do it from the bottom) is that it goes on a journey across a very impressive cliff where most of the routes are much harder. Besides, it's a traverse, which is always fun.

In reply to MGC:

Valkyrie at the Roaches - really? A lot of it isn't that hard for the grade but it's a great line and the whole moving down the flake and getting onto the ledge business is pretty unique.

In reply to Misha:

The thing about Cemetery Gates is its fantastic position for its standard. The climbing is fairly ordinary, but ... very enjoyable. It's a rather sensational experience at the cusp of HVS/E1 (doesn't matter)

In reply to Darron:


Well, the big merit of Central Route in the context of Peak grit, is that it's quite a big route. Has a kind of semi-mountainous 'character' about it. Plus it's not straightforward climbing. Probably 2 stars for those qualities.

In reply to Offwidth:


Good bouldering and a small number of decent routes, most of which go sideways because there isn't enough crag for proper up-routes. Not my idea of amazing.

As for GW itself, it's just a silly, contrived variation on an ordinary VS crack. If people are looking for a full-bodied thuggy grit HVS, they should go to Cratcliff for Suicide Wall, or get stuck in at Hen Cloud. The difference in stature and quality is immense.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Isn't it fairer to say that most 'great' routes are great in their time. Cemetery Gates is a fine example. It was the only route on the wall (if you ignore the girdle) then along came Livesey and Right Wall and sort of knocked it off its pedestal. It doesn't change the nature of the Gates in any way but it changed the way we look at it. I suppose to a lesser extent Lord might have done the same thing to RW?

In reply to Bob:


You really hate this route don't you Bob? Seemed ok to me!

In reply to mark s:



Agree 2 star. Starts up another route and the best finish is not on route

In reply to Dave 88:






Hmm Lancs guide logic!

In reply to jon:


Yes, a lot of truth in that. Of course a wall feels very different once it's laced with other routes.

In reply to The Lemming:

Gillercombe buttress. More of a scramble than a climb.

In reply to The Lemming:

Well, it depends, doesn't it.

The climbing on Cenotaph Corner is not really that wonderful, but the experience is an unforgettable milestone in any climber's career.


History/reputation
Position/line
Quality moves(includes how polished, pro, how cohesive etc etc)
"Personal moment"

If you have 3 points available in each category, I think 10 or more is a 3 star route. Problem is that guidebooks can only judge the first three parameters...

So, Sloth, visited by an e3 leader from elsewhere, will be a nicely situated one-move wonder. But for most people it's an iconic and unforgettable accomplishment and, for some, defining in their climbing career.

Vector was already quite trashed when I got to it... but, hey, I've climbed *Vector*

I have only done handful of routes that get a perfect 12 - Right Angle and Snake Dyke are two.

In reply to Bulls Crack:

Yep. I vent all unreserved vitriol towards it.

In reply to machine:


Nah, drove over from Skipton, Soloed it, drove back. Great day (apart from the driving)

In reply to Bob:


I agree. Did it after it appeared in Hard Rock - thought I'd done the wrong 'drainage' line by mistake!

In reply to jon:

I used to call it my Twopenny Blue. Never led the Penny Black

In reply to machine:

Don't knock it. Did it last year at at 79 for the first time and repeated it again his year, a year older.

In reply to jon:
No, The Corner

In reply to The Lemming:

Rock Idol at Mother Carey's

The Link at Stanage

In reply to jon:

As you say, a route might not be great in absolute terms but it will still be great 'at the grade'. So yes, Lord has knocked RW off its pedestal but RW is still a great route at E5.

In reply to JJL:

One of the things that distinguishes truly great routes is that you think 'wow, that was really good!' even if it's way below your lead grade. So even though there is no 'personal moment' as you put it, you still have a great experience, simply enjoying the climbing and the situation. Right Angle was like that for me - did it last year and it was pure quality.

In reply to JJL:


Thought about Right Angle - clearly any HS leader is going to want the corner pitch. But the second pitch is (according to Rockfax) a 4b traverse, which means that unlike a lot of classic HSes, you can't just rope in some random newbie to second you on it. So if you want to get the most out of it, do you need to find someone who's done it before / doesn't know it's any good / has bad luck tossing coins to do it with you?

In reply to Ramblin dave:


I thought exactly the same about Main Wall when I did maybe 8 years ago.

In reply to The Lemming:

Strawberries gets dull after the 4th or 5th time....

In reply to The Lemming:

Sardine and Rubicon. Both Top 50 routes according to Rockfax.

Both highly polished and even if they weren't the rock quality isn't great: scabby, shattered limestone that's neither nice to look at or climb on.

In reply to Ramblin dave:
If you do the low traverse, that involves a down climb which is harder than HS and a belay on micro wires. A great hanging stance not far above the waves. No way is it HS done that way, I'd say solid VS.

In reply to JamButty:


I agree. I have to do it in wellies in the rain at midnight now to get the same kick out it.

In reply to charley:


Burn him - witch !!!!!!!!!

How can you say that - it's such an iconic route it even makes rubbish choss climbing cider swilling southerners look god like as they ascend to the heavens .... and it's far better than that old pile of choss in the pass so forgettable i can't even remember what it's called .... pet cemetery ????

In reply to machine:


I wasn't expecting much of this route, largely due to the negative comments it often attracts here. But I thought it was brilliant, well worthy of its classic status. And I thought it was quite sustained 4a with a short section of 4b near the start,

In reply to Ramblin dave:


It's one of my favourite routes ever!


+1 to all of that. Which is one of the reasons I rate it so much!

In reply to Simon Caldwell:


Really? I got the short straw with the toss of leads and found it disappointing. Thought the final steep pitch was the pick and enjoyed the awkward leftwards traverse on pitch 3, but my leads were on the in-between bits which felt like scrambles. I certainly don't remember anything at 4b. and I'm the very definition of an HS/easy VS bumbly so I ought to remember anything with a technical grade!!

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

People tend to over-react to the odd blade of grass!

In reply to cem:


I agree. A good route, but over-graded a full notch and not a patch on Strait Gate next door.


I don't think it's hailed as much of a classic, but I do think it's one of the best HVSs on the crag. Congo Corner is overrated, but The Link is a favourite of mine. Shame about the ledge, maybe?

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Rock Idol is a good route but, as you say, over-graded and, I think, over-hyped.

As for The Link, I've always viewed it as a variant of Congo Corner rather than a full route in its own right

In reply to The Lemming:

Cemetery Gates - nowhere near as varied and interesting as the Corner or Left Wall
Most of the 3 star VSs at Stanage - apart from Titanic, none are as good as their Yorkshire counterparts like Frankland's Crack, Arete Direct or Birch Tree Wall
Via Dolorosa - horrifically polished, too many ledges and easy bits
Surprise Attack tails off badly and is not in the same league as Lucky Strike
I prefer Faith to Hope on the Idwal Slabs - much better position on that rib and much less polish
I found Route II at Diabaig strangely underwhelming - the routes I did at Reiff on the same trip were much more memorable

In reply to Sam Beaton:


Seriously? I thought it the other way round with the Gates constantly interesting and varied while the Corner was a lot of bridging and shunting with one tricky bit near the top

In reply to The Lemming:

I hate these type of threads - bunch of old misery-guts saying <insert brilliant route here> is crap.
I'd rather find out for myself thanks!

In reply to pasbury:

Spot-on!

In reply to The Lemming:

Observatory Ridge. Did it recently because we fancied an easy day on a classic ridge. It makes every 'best of' guide going but I think that this is because it is seen as part of a trilogy of classic ridges up the Ben, and it would seem rude to leave it out. It's a fabulous place to watch the hordes on Tower Ridge from, and offers good views of Minus One Direct, but 3 weeks on, I can barely remember anything about the climbing, other than it was disappointing.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:


I climbed Main Wall this summer as part of a big day out in the Pass. Found it enjoyable, but as I've been going quite well (for me) recently, I felt it's one I should have climbed years ago (much like DoWH). As someone said above, I didn't place much gear, didn't notice any 'moves', but still enjoyed the experience.

In reply to The Lemming:

Definitely Bucaneer at Swanage is barely worth a star let alone three. Great line but dirty with bird shit, very ordinary climbing and a one move crux that is nasty and unsatisfying.

In reply to The Lemming:

Flowstone routes in general. They all seem overrated to me; nasty slippery brittle stuff

In reply to mav:

You need to do it in winter under deep powder

In reply to The Lemming:

I have a feeling that I'm a little bit of a masochist, but although I do like to go jump on the classics, there is something I find just too appealing about absolute chop routes.

The feel of a wobbly piece of choss in the middle of a sea of more choss, or the route covered here and there in impenetrable green... The guidebook comment "don't even bother" seems to draw me like a moth to a flame. Consequences will probably one day be the same...

Three star routes should have something different and "special" to them. Sometimes they don't have this, but at the other end of the scale they always do

In reply to Darron:
Try the direct, then Central will seem great!

In reply to jshields:

I thought the direct was desperate and still a bit naff and I was going well on E1-2ish and my partner fell off! Evil crack. Historic routes that must be ticked...

In reply to Bulls Crack:

Totally agree - these people need to do something else.

I mean - Cemetry Gates - get a life please.

In reply to MGC:


it really is pants, totally agree.

In reply to tom84:

Yes, a non-line on chossy rock with unmemorable moves and no interesting history either

In reply to Graeme Hammond:
Started raining when I did it, so we got full value. The only good bit was the sick pleasure watching my second having an even worse time than me This type of route is so hard to grade, certainly didn't think I would have to fight as much as I did.

In reply to Graeme Hammond:

You are talking about Central Route Direct? At Hen Cloud? Generally regarded as a pleasant, soft introduction to the more carnivorous local test pieces?

In reply to Bulls Crack:


your tongue may be in your cheek, but that pretty much sums the route up for me, its not chossy but the rest is true. it wouldn't get a star at most crags outside the peak. in my opinion the novelty value of grit multi pitch is the reason its so popular.

In reply to Misha:


It's pretty unique - yes I'll give you that.
It was the filthy green corner you start at that put me right off. Suppose that depends on the time of year and conditions.
It wasn't the worst climb I've done, just the first one that came to mind when thinking of over rated routes.
I just expected something with more quality for all the talk.

Probably just me .

M

In reply to MGC:

Devil's Slide, Lundy

Overgraded at Severe. It's barely a Hard Diff or V Diff and not particularly interesting climbing apart from the finish.

Albion at VS is a much more interesting climb and correctly graded.

In reply to tom84:

Not a particular grit fan but I thought it good at the time. Interesting/unique moves leading to straightforward but nice open climbing with the trademark devious Brown route finding solution! Much more memorable than most grit at that grade...imo

In reply to Bulls Crack:


It's a Harding route, not Brown's. The latter's harder Valkyrie at Froggatt is a much better route IMHO.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I'd agree. I have to confess that I've only done Valkyrie at the Roaches once, as one of my first VSs over 30 years ago. I've never felt the need to do it again, although I've done Valkyrie at Froggatt several times (and Matinee too) so that must say something, I suppose.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

doh mixin' up me old time masters

In reply to Dave Garnett:

That's the one, a little gem!

In reply to cem:


yes it's just Congo Corner Direct really

In reply to Ramblin dave:
I agree I also didn't find main wall all that great. It's an improbable line in places and the step off the pinnacle wasn't obvious and I guess is a good position. But for me it's a two star route. Not a patch climbing wise pitch for pitch of many of the climbs at a similar grade on tremadoc.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I disagree with Congo corner I think it's a great route with really varied climbing and holds - maybe the best grit hvs I've done. I think there is a pattern emerging here. Non sustained and more meandering routes seem less favoured when they are well under a climbers limit!

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Just seems a bit daft to me to go wandering all over the buttress when you just climb up at the same grade. And everyone knows climbing through a roof on massive jugs is way more fun than shuffling sideways along breaks.

In reply to The Lemming:

The biggest disappointment for me has been Will o' the wisp; one of the classics I was saving up for those (increasingly frequent) days I don't feel like a challenge, just having some fun.

After the write up in Classic Rock I was really looking forward to it: what I got is a few short bits of OK climbing combined with walking along ledges, that are NOT improved by giving them a twee name.

As for the rest: Dream, Sloth, Cenotaph, Vector, Birch Tree Wall etc etc personally I think they're all every bit as good as they're cracked up to be, I can only think that sport climbing has distorted some people's judgement!

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Will O the Wisp seems one of the few so called established classics Ive heard of being a real contender for being double overstarred. On my list but Im in no hurry.

In reply to The Lemming:

It's a vast category. About half the routes in Britain may be over-rated and over-graded. I suppose I have to name one: Inverted V

In reply to John Stainforth:


agree, i was also being mauled by midges at the time

In reply to Offwidth:
I did Willo the Wisp on a foul, wet day and really enjoyed it. The conditions were nasty enough that we were glad that it wasn't very hard and that the crux rib was covered in huge holds. Cwm Cowarch is a very special place and It always felt that routes gained a star just for being there. Either way, Willo the Wisp is in the same league as Cwfry Arete, Fingers Ridge in the Cairngorms or Eve's Arete in Glencoe; good, one star routes all of them...

In reply to abseil:


Heresy!

In reply to Ratfeeder:



Errrrrr sorry about that I suppose you have a point. I think if Great Slab was your first route on Cloggy you'd enjoy it, and the day out, a lot. But I've found Great Slab scrappy in parts and definitely worse than the other similarly-graded offerings thereabouts, e.g. Great/Bow combination, Longlands.

In reply to abseil:


Yeah the Great/Bow combo is definitely superior, but then I think everyone knows that from Hard Rock.

In reply to Ratfeeder:

Great/Bow is obviously superior (never did it), but Great still has enormous character, that whole slab being one of the grandest steep slabs in Britain. Longland's is much inferior in every way, being tucked into a rather gloomy subsidiary groove on the side of the West Buttress that just feels like it's missing out on the main action. Most of it is disappointing - much the best bit is the 2nd crux near top, but it's very patchy and undistinguished.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

With Great Slab, the position is everything - the only thing - because the rock-climbing is very scrappy and second/third-rate apart from a few feet of more interesting crack climbing. If it was not for the position, it wouldn't deserve a single star, surely?

In reply to John Stainforth:

I seem to remember that the climbing up the crack-line where the 'green caterpillar' had apparently once been was quite good actually, on surprisingly good rock. The crux moves left were probably worth at least a star, too. But, how do you measure these things, because of course it's very unusual in being in such a good position? One can turn the thing round and ask: just what other VSs would one put in a top 20 of multipitch VSs in GB? Or, let's say, south of the Scottish border. Then Great Slab on Cloggy starts to fare rather well, I think.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


Thanks and I'm sorry about that - I'm sure you're right - but I did Longland's as a very young yoof. It was my first route [and lead] on Cloggy and I'm sure that fact coloured my memories of the route itself (as Joe Brown [I think] wrote, people are often very impressed by their first route on Cloggy).

In reply to The Lemming:

Cenotaph Corner. Great line, mediocre climbing.
Agags Groove. A good route but not a great route, only the top pitch deserves stars.

In reply to Removed User:


?? classic corner climbing with the crux at the top on perfect rock!

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Interesting. I haven't done Longlands and from what you say I shan't bother with it - there's so much to do on Cloggy and so few opportunities to climb there (given weather etc.).

In reply to Removed User:

Agree regarding Agags, definitely overrated. I would nominate Storm (Glen Nevis) - the climbing is nothing special and even the line doesn't look that good.

In reply to Michael Gordon:


If you're comparing it with something like Centurion then fair comment, but Storm is surely one of the best climbs at Poldubh isn't it?

In reply to cem:


Of course people are fond of nominating RI as a contender for 'the best E1 in Britain', or even in the world, so it has an awful lot to live up to. The disappointing aspect for competent E1 leaders might be that the climbing is mainly just a matter of jug-hauling; but there is no denying that this is a tremendous line up a very impressive piece of rock.

In reply to Duncan Bourne:

I totally agree with this, one slightly tech move at 20 feet and geting out of the niche and that's the Corner climbed, but it must be like glass now, especially as I first did it over 40+ years back. The Gates is just brilliant after an indifferent start, with an exciting belay at the girdle ledge and a choice of finishes. Many now lead this in one runout which is a shame as you miss one of the unique qualities of this great climb. Besides, you can watch others struggling from the vantage of that 'belay'!

In reply to Ratfeeder:


I haven't done a lot there but not sure the above says much for Polldubh. I do remember doing short stuff like Tip Toe Direct the same day and getting more out of that, but that is perhaps just me.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

I agree that Polldubh is not a major climbing venue; I guess Polldubh is to Ben Nevis what Shepherd's Crag is to Scafell - a pleasant roadside option on an off day.

In reply to Ratfeeder:

Thought Longland's was a b
it of a let down for a first route on Cloggy; it is exposed but a bit lichenous and flakey.

Great Bow is probably worth three stars but it's definately a big warts-and-all ramble in the same vein as Wreckers Slab, The Chasm or South Ridge Direct on Arran.

In reply to Sean Kelly:


I agree with everything you say, particularly about taking the classic belay on the girdle ledge. For its standard, it's about as good as rock climbing gets.

In reply to alan moore:


I think you're onto something here. SRD is a very long and, it has to said, highly enjoyable outing. But as a rock climb, and moreover as a VS, it leaves much to be desired in my opinion. What technical climbing there is (the S-crack, the Y-crack and the Layback) is excellent, but in a total length of 400 metres, that accounts for only about 50 of them! And the first 150 m are just vegetated scrambling. As the guidebook says, SRD has achieved 'classic status' - but does it deserve it?

In reply to Sean Kelly:

>The Gates is just brilliant after an indifferent start, with an exciting belay at the girdle ledge and a choice of finishes. Many now lead this in one runout which is a shame as you miss one of the unique qualities of this great climb. Besides, you can watch others struggling from the vantage of that 'belay'!

I'll join the queue to agree with you. When a mate & me did CG about six years ago (my second time), there was a party doing Left Wall with the direct finish. On the belay ledge of CG we watched them with a certain admiration and envy. We all arrived at the bottom of the crag at more or less the same time, and we congratulated the other pair on their ascent in good style. In turn they asked us what we thought of the Gates. "Yeah great climb", we said, and my mate added "but nothing to what you guys have just done". To which one of the other two (the second) replied "Ah but the Gates is better - much easier of course, but more interesting and better positioned. I like the Gates."

In reply to Ratfeeder:

Yes, that's the impression I have of it but I don't really remember much that distinguished it from Sou'Wester Slabs apart from the Rosetta Stone at the top.

In reply to Trangia:




Only just spotted this gross heresy!!

Devil's Slide is the easiest way up one of the finest (if not the finest) rock features in Britain. OK, so it's not Hard Severe all the way, but you would have to be pretty fixated on difficulty not to be able to enjoy the easier bits. As for "overgraded at Severe", it's correctly graded at Hard Severe for the traverse pitch at the top, but pitch 3 is also 4a, and not overly protected..

Albion is also a great route, but more unbalanced. One 4c pitch, but the first two actually easier than the parallel pitches on Devil's Slide.

Martin

In reply to Martin Hore: Guessing here, but I reckon most people who climb on Lundy climb at a significantly higher grade than Severe so Devil's Slide will seem very trivial - hence the "over rated" feeling.

I'd bet that if you sent a load of Severe leaders up it then they wouldn't think it was over rated

In reply to Michael Hood:

Yes you're probably right. However I agree with Martin that it deserves it's classic status(and grade). After climbing many routes up to E2-E3 on Lundy, this and Satan's Slip were still one of the most memorable ones for me. Really beautiful rock feature, atmosphere and position

In reply to Michael Hood:

I agree although I have to admit to some degree of family bias as my grandfather Keith Lawder led the FA. Interestingly, both his seconds on the route climbed at a far higher standard than he did, but declined the lead on the upper pitches. He would have been wearing an old pair of "Commando" boots and apart from a piton or two for the stances and the odd hexagonal nut would have had no other gear. I repeated it with him a few years later and found it very bold though technically straightforward.

I was also stormbound on the island with the South African party including Paul Fatti who led the FA of Satan's Slip, placing a mickey mouse bolt halfway up the crux pitch - no micro wires in those days. I repeated SS shortly afterwards and both it and the DS are far better routes in my opinion than Albion which follows an enclosed corner where for me the whole point of this extraordinary feature lies in finding a path up that vast sweep of open, pristine granite with the sea crashing against the massive block at its base.

In reply to Misha:


agree. so on that basis I thought 'meh' about Corvus, was looking forward to the much hyped hand traverse on huge jugs but it lost its thrill when it turned out to be two metres above a huge picnic ledge - about as much exposure and height as walking along a wall.

In contrast I could not believe Commando Ridge could have so much exposure at such a low grade - a truly memorable route.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

(Gillercombe Buttress)

Nail on head. Whether you find a climb surprisingly good or disappointing depends on your expectations of it. It's no good approaching GB thinking its going to be another Tophet Wall only longer (much longer in fact). It is a different sort of excursion altogether - a 'mountaineering' route that really ought to done in walking boots and with your rucksack, so that you can continue on your way to Gable. Yes, there is some scrambling on it, but even that is pretty pleasant stuff on mainly clean rock. And it's 190 metres long - that's no printing error in the guidebook, it really is that long. Approached in the appropriate spirit it can provide a very rewarding experience.

In reply to Iain Peters:


Is he still going strong - I see he's an Emeritus Professor now! I climbed a fair bit with the Wits club many years ago,

In reply to Misha:

Agreed , Suicide Wall is way overated, possibly the worst of the 'E' grade routes at Bossy.

In reply to Martin Hore:
Agreed