UKC

On October 27th we topped out the Matterhorn via the Schmid Route. It was flipping cold and one heck of an adventure.

Here it is for anyone interested: http://thrillseekersanonymous.com/2014/11/01/matterhorn-voie-schmid/

Cheers,
ilana

In reply to thrillseekerz:

great adventure ilana;and so well written

In reply to thrillseekerz:

Sorry, but I had to reactivate my account to reply to this.

Right, well written and a great adventure. But with all respect: anybody who needs two days for the Schmid Route under current conditions should question him/ herself if he/she is already fit enough to climb this kind of routes.

The run on the face was incredible during the last good spell, probably mainly due to internet reports of perfect conditions. There where people who pitched 50 degree slopes on perfect neve. Taking forever.
The conditions can not get any better. The route is tecnically easier than the chere couloir with a perfect track all the way up. hard to protect though.

Those who can not stay within a normal (!) time now, did get up it somehow, but where not up to the route. That has nothing to do with speed climbing, but with putting yourself (and rescue services if needed) in danger. At least more than neccessary.

Sorry for the rant. It's just sad, that it's all about jumping on something big, prestigous, for the "thrill" and the blog entry. So much so, that some don't realize a successfull ascent is more than reaching the summit "somehow".

maybe a good post title would have been: "It took us two bivys to climb the matterhorn north face. What can we do better next time?"

(yes, we did the route one day(!) after. just to make clear I know the conditions first hand.)

bye the may, the face got climbed in 5 hours in 1959.

In reply to m1er1er:
Well I don't dismiss disenting views, nor is everyone obliged to slip into some sort of hero worship when someone completes a major Alpine route, but that seems a bit of a harsh judgement and rather dismissive of their ascent and their efforts. I'm nor sure how you think people can acquire the skills needed to tackle these sort of routes without er, tackling them, no-one jumps straight to being able to handle themselves in these situations.

It is always a fine decision whether to take bivy gear, and how much of it, if you need it you really need it, but as the old saw has it, if you go equipped to bivy, you will bivy. I certainly know that I have gone for substantial Alpine routes in marginal conditions or knowledge, but if you wait for perfect circumstances, you will wait forever.

Don't quite follow the "the face has been climbed in 5 hours" logic either. Just because Ueli Steck is superhuman, and can achieve times for the Eiger Nordwand that would challenge most of us to go for a brisk walk in the park is not a good reason for "weekend warriors" to hang up their boots and sit on the sofa. We all do what we can, with limitations due to fitness, circumstances, experience and other commitments, though we are not Alpine superstars.

So personally I would be more inclined to congratulate Ilana and friend on a great Alpine route and a successful ascent. Yes, we know it could all have gone horribly wrong, but it very often can in the Alps, but it didn't, so a route was snatched late in the year.

In reply to m1er1er:

Well, aren't you a cheerful f*cker! And you reactivated your account just to be critical of someone else's achievement? sheeshh!!

In reply to m1er1er:

ouch! chill dude...

In reply to m1er1er:

I think that post is the most petty, nasty and arrogantly self righteous load of shite I have ever read on UKC.

They were, by all accounts, perfectly competent to climb the route safely in the conditions and in the style they chose. They carried bivi gear and used it; it seems their judgement was pretty much spot on. To denigrate their ascent as just reaching the summit "somehow" is absolutely ridiculous. Having already climbed the '38 route on the Eiger earlier in the year in a very reasonable time, they could hardly be described as inadequately experienced.

It could be argued that, if anyone is potentially putting the rescue services unnecessarily at risk, it is the fundamentalist "fast and light" brigade who would no doubt be straight on their phone the moment anything slightly unexpected happened to delay them.

It's just sad that some don't realize a successful ascent is more than reaching the summit as fast as possible.

Well done Ilana. Ignore the pathetic anonymous sniping.

In reply to Simon4:

Just to put things straight: conditions are/where all but marginal !!! and nobody is talking about speed climbing or leaving bivy gear at home. If anyone thinks that's the route to hop on to acquire the needed skills. Fine.

Otherwise:
Ilana, I wish you a lot more routes (hard or easy) to enjoy the experience and the feeling of beeing skilled enough to tackle them. And always enough reserve to to cope with bad conditions or anything that might go wrong to get down safely. Honestly.

In reply to Robert Durran:


No way!

He? make some relevant points but make the mistake IMO of stating them a bit too harshly.

Now toned down and tempered the comments, fair enough.

In reply to Rick Graham:

> He makes some relevant points but makes the mistake IMO of stating them a bit too harshly.

So do you think that there is anything in the blog to suggest that they were not competent or adequately experienced to climb the route safely in those conditions?

In reply to Robert Durran:

Reading the Eiger blog again they were only just lucky then to stay ahead of bad weather.

From my own and son's experience of the Schmitt ( he did it a few weeks ago ) I would assess that they are in the lower decile of alpine speed. Probably not good when they are climbing there as a local with frequent acclimatisation and the right size hills to play on. A lot of Brits do better after jumping on an Easyjet flight after sitting behind a desk for months.

Even with modern forecasting, alpine safety is very related to speed.

So, not saying that they were not competent or experienced.

But, would you climb with them on a serious route? Not my first choice.

In reply to Rick Graham:

As many, many others have been.


Yes, of those going on the Matterhorn N. Face (10% of them have to be!) but most alpinists wouldn't (quite rightly) even consider attempting it.


Yes, obviously there are loads and loads of stronger alpinists around, but that is not relevant to the discussion, which is about whether they were sufficiently fit, acclimatised and competent. It appears they were.


Yes, but it is always a balance and they were fast enough.


Maybe not mine either, but I think the point is that they are clearly a proven partnership happy with each other.

In reply to Rick Graham:


So their account was honest about close calls and risks, rather than brushing them under the carpet? Lets be honest, most climbers LOVE to talk about how extreme and risky the situation they were in, how the threats built up and how they managed to brush them aside cos they were so good/lucky. We mostly take a "any prang you walk away from is a good prang" view, as long as we do walk away from them.


No, but you are trying to imply it in a snide way without actually saying it.


Would they climb with me? I've had a few close calls. But normally one tries to work up a partnership for a serious route with easier ones first. But there still has to be a moment when you launch into the big one, by definition.

In reply to Simon4:



No, but you are trying to imply it in a snide way without actually saying it.



I don't think so. Please don't misinterpret the words used.

In reply to Rick Graham:

So if you don't think they had inadequate competence or experience, why are you defending m1erer's criticism of them (the actual criticism, that is, not the overly harsh tone of it)?

In reply to Robert Durran:


Yes.

He quite rightly pointed out how slow they were, especially considering the conditions.

In reply to Rick Graham:


Well obviously they were slower than others, but do you think that is grounds for criticism rather than just comment. In other words, do you think they were not competent enough to be attempting the route?

It seems to me that they took advantage of exceptional conditions to climb the route at a time when their experience and skills were perfectly adequate; in fact they perhaps showed very shrewd judgement.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Even with hindsight, it is sometimes difficult to distinguish between luck and shrewd judgement in the mountains, unfortunately.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Regarding competence, perhaps we have been getting a bit at cross purposes.

In my mind, I tend to think of competence and speed as two separate attributes.

In reply to Rick Graham:


Indeed. This also applies to those who sacrifice security for speed (until they get hit by a rock or whatever).

In reply to Rick Graham:


Ok, do you think they were too slow to be attempting the route?

In reply to Rick Graham:

That was meant as a comment. An honest comment. Sorry if it came out too harsh.

If a party bivys on the solvay on the descent. Congratulations to a hard and commiting route ! With all respect!. The hornli is not easy and very long with lots of snow...
If you have to bivy on the face cause sth didnt go as planned, well done, you took the right gear, hopefully didnt freeze too much, but did it!

But if someone takes three days in absolutely amazing conditions and then blogs about it as the thrill (and sponsors..) seeking! north face collectors! as if that was normal practice/ climbing time/ how you do it, then there's sth wrong imo. And some even applaud/ approve, in a sport that is potentially dangerous.

Good on all who pursue alpine goals and push themselves! But again, it's sad that everything must be published and marketed like this extreme example.

Back to climbing for oneself...

In reply to m1er1er:

No need to apologize to me. I agree with you.

In reply to Robert Durran:


With the clues available, if they asked my advice, the answer would be too slow.

In reply to Rick Graham:


Ok, we'll have to disagree on that then.

In reply to thrillseekerz:
Despite what some of the others have posted, well I enjoyed reading their account of this ascent!

In reply to m1er1er:


Ah, so your real objection is not to the fact that they were slow but to the tone of their blog?

I do agree that the "North American" style might grate with UK climbers, but they do probably have a better story to tell than someone so far within their comfort zone that they can nip up the route in a morning.

By the way, if these faster climbers had chosen to extend themselves a bit more and spent three days on the Bonatti Route (and blogged about it) would you have been equally ctitical of them if, say, Ueli Steck, had soloed past them and done it in a morning?

In reply to thrillseekerz:

Hello, I have no problems with you taking your time on the route and staying safe, my opinion would be too slow is not getting off alive or needing rescue not been outside the guidebook times. However my problem is with the blog post it reads a bit too much like a travel guide, most folk reading a blog such as this I would assume would be interested in the route itself and not a basic kit list or where to go, so I feel the actual route detail lets it down, for all I know you may never have even been on the route, but regardless of that if it all checks out, good effort on the 27th it's a special day for me as was when i was born :+)

In reply to thrillseekerz:
In reply to all the armchair enthusiasts, I would like to make a few points of clarification:

1. Yes, we moved too slow - I am recovering from a stress fractured fibula and torn shoulder labrum, both non-climbing injuries, which robbed two crucial months of alpine training from me. My partner and I both have Mon-Fri jobs, making us recreational alpinists who heavily rely on good weather windows to align with our weekends off. Combine this with living 6-7 hours away from the Alps. It's a challenge to get acclimatization in, to say the least; however, my partner and I both bare climbing resumes giving us the "experience" and "competency" for this climb and others of its caliber. We would need to be put on serious medication if we thought we were going for a speed ascent on any classic alpine route currently, given the above.

2. We chose to climb the Schmid when we did, given it's excellent condition and week long weather window. We brought bivy gear and provisions with the understanding that it may very well involve a bivy part way up depending on how we felt. We chose to bivy when we came across a safe location (rockfall protected) and when daylight began to depart us. We are not speed ascensionists or aspiring Ueli Stecks, we are recreational alpinists. We had a personal goal with reasonable expectations and the tools necessary for us to complete OUR goal within OUR expectations - NOT the internet fuss committee's expectations.

3. If I wanted to avoid the armchair mountaineers from internet criticism of our ascent, I would have sugar coated the post for all to read. This is not what I am about, everything I write is an honest account of what transpired on the climb. We climbed in our own style, regardless of how sexy/unsexy that style may be to others and we did so safely never once feeling out of control of the situation.

So hopefully, everyone gets off UKClimbing and sets off on their own adventure. It's so easy to be so critical of someone else's, but so much more difficult to have your own.

Cheers,
ilana

In reply to thrillseekerz:
I agree with the criticisms of m1er1er or whatever his or her name is. They were mean spirited and carping. You checked the weather, which gave you the time you needed, got up safely, and then down again, which is more than the Italians you mention being airlifted off did, and the fact that you took two days is fantastically irrelevant. Well done, good effort. I really don't get his or her argument. He/she seems to be saying that you should get experience on less famous routes before trying climbs like the Schmid. Leaving aside the fact you've already done the Eiger, that is just bizarre. I've done a few grandes course in modest times and I look back on them with pride and pleasure. I didn't try them to impress some internet troll, but because they were great lines on great mountains.

There is another issue here. Why do people post such stuff anonymously? I recently changed my own UKC username to my real one because it seemed so daft to be expressing an opinion without people knowing who I am, especially since I am a professional writer and journalist. I realise this practice started with the internet, almost by accident, but surely, it should end. If you want to slag someone off who just happens to have climbed one of the great north faces in cold weather and written an enjoyable account of it, at least have the guts to do it under your own name. I look forward to m1er1er coming out - and if you don't, sir/madam, you are a coward.

In reply to thrillseekerz:

Very well said Ilana, ignore me1er1er and Rick Graham. As long as you enjoyed yourself, were safe and didn't impose on others then who cares! )

Oh, and I enjoyed reading your blogg, thanks for sharing. It's great to read what weekend climbers can get up to.

In reply to David Rose:
Well said and thank you. It's hard not to bring yourself down to their level when responding to such a ridiculous forum reply. Thank you for your words and thought provoking morality post on hiding behind the internet curtain of anonymity. I too look forward to M1 whatever coming forth with his real identity to stand behind his statements for which he deemed so profound to re-activate his trolling account. Cheers David!

-ilana

In reply to thrillseekerz:

I had a further thought, Ilana. My guess is you were felling pretty good after your climb, and also after writing it up so well and so quickly. And then this troll came along and rained on your parade. I've had one or two experiences when I've achieved something I thought was special, only to find someone denigrating it, and it's really horrible. Maybe this was meant to be. I notice m1er1er doesn't seem to have any kind of profile here, by the way. Anyhow, you're right to take no notice. Climbing the Schmid in the short days and cold temperatures of late October is a great thing to have done. Respect!

In reply to thrillseekerz:

Another vote of support. I enjoyed your account and think you have very clearly explained why you climbed the route in the style that you did. The critics are only making a noise to tell everyone that they are in a superior league.

In reply to Rick Graham:

Me too, sort of.

I had similar thoughts reading the account, but I haven't been on the route, so didn't feel qualified to comment.

Now we've seen "Iliana" give a fair reply to m1er1er, stating their case, with lots more information, and it seems their comments were probably a bit hasty and harsh. How terrible for m1er1er to be the FIRST PERSON EVER on UKC to make a hastily harsh comment!

You've never done that, have you Robert Durran, eh? Been too critical, then on reflection, with more information, backed off a bit?

Some of the rest of you need to pull your bloody heads in. This is a forum, not a fan club.

David Rose & "Iliana" - learn what 'troll' means before you throw it around. m1er1er made comments s/he felt valid. There's nothing wrong with criticism. If it's ill-founded then people will prove it and let you know, as has happened here. A troll's sole aim is to cause trouble and hurt or pointlessly divert a thread, which I don't believe was the aim of m1er1er's post, no matter how critical, unfair or inappropriately sharp it may be.

"Iliana" - you put something up on the internet and want people to read it, you should expect all types of comments, not just nice ones that you like. Grow up.

David Rose - m1er1er was not "slagging off" anyone. While I applaud you criticising others under your own name - as I do on most other sites - that does not mean that anonymously-posted criticism is invalid merely because the poster is not named. It's the content that matters - does the argument hold up to scrutiny? Is the information useful and/or true? Play the ball, not the man.

In reply to John Stainforth:


Can I take that as a compliment ?


Seriously, if you all read the posts in order carefully, it is apparent that my initial response was to Roberts opener

"I think that post is the most petty, nasty and arrogantly self righteous load of shite I have ever read on UKC."


Only when challenged to state my views did I then answer rather than ignore the questions.

In reply to Damo:


Why all the personal digs? Robert may be a bit grumpy at times, but I think he has great respect for other people's efforts (in climbing terms that is - he may feel rather strongly about what people do playing around with graphics software, but that is scarcely in the same league), and is not likely to seek to denigrate them. What also is with the inverted commas around Iliana's name - are you suggesting that is not her name, also rather curious in context of your comment about anonymous criticism being valid if it is correct.


Most climbers are still capable of recognising and celebrating when others have a significant achievement, that does not mean they are like teenage girls with a boy band. This is a very significant route, they did it under their own steam and got up and down in good order.

The point about speed may be valid, the way it was put was certainly not. When all is said, they got the route done, good for them. Some people can sail up these major routes without breaking sweat, most of us are very happy to get up them and off in one piece and wildly excited to have done them.


No, but there can be plenty wrong with the style of it, possibly also the motivation.

In reply to Simon4:


In addition to misspelling Ilana's name, I originally had another sentence in there referencing anonymity and full names as per David's post. I inadvertently deleted it. My bad, sorry for the confusion.

As for personal digs - I often agree with Robert's comments, even when many others don't. I just thought his first post was well over the top, as seemingly did Rick, above.

My issue is not really with the climb or the write-up, but with the reaction to the criticism.

In reply to thrillseekerz:

Fab post- well done. You looked after yourselves and returned safely. Doesn't matter how long it took. Some people on UKC, for whatever reasons, are negative and cant share other peoples delight. Just ignore them. You climbed a fantastic mountain by a very difficult route- a mega achievement in my book. Whats next??

In reply to Damo:

>.


Well, my issue is with people critising the OP.

Someone has a great time on the hill, gets up and down safely under their own steam and wants to share their joy with people and then you get a.n. other critising them for being too slow and in effect saying they shouldn't have been there. They're they people who need to pull their "bloody heads in" not the others on this thread. No need for such criticism around a well intentioned OP.

In reply to Doghouse:

totally agree with you. I found the post really inspiring.

In reply to thrillseekerz:

Nice TR - I've always felt that the TRs was one area where SuperTopo shines. I can see why UKC doesn't have them - While SuperTopo may be a hive of scurrilous invective and dubious content, the response to people's achievements are usually positive.

I enjoyed this TR and thought "bivvying on the summit - far out! Well prepared team". You will note that even though they were perhaps a little slow (while expecting to be for good reason, but no whining in the blog!) there isn't more than a passing comment to the other team that were rescued. Very polite.

Very nicely done.

In reply to pneame:

Nice TR - I've always felt that the TRs was one area where SuperTopo shines. I can see why UKC doesn't have them - While SuperTopo may be a hive of scurrilous invective and dubious content, the response to people's achievements are usually positive.

Pretty much exactly what I was going to post, but didn't.

It'd be really good to see more TRs like this one on UKC. I for one enjoyed it.

In reply to Damo:


I was only responding to m1er1er's first post which I still think was exceptionally mean spirited; downright nasty in fact.

In reply to Simon4:


I may have some stromg (though carefully considered) views at times, but that does not necessarily make me grumpy. And yes, I hope I do have great respect for other peoples' efforts, including Ilana's.

In reply to thrillseekerz:

Its a really good effort and you are entitled to go at whatever pace suits you. Shame about some of the comments.
I'm not sure I could have lasted three days on that peak (speaking from experience)!

In reply to Dave Searle:

FWIW I also actually enjoy reading these TR and the rest of the thrill...... website.

Also a lesson to me of the care needed in drafting replies and the danger of confusion between negative criticism and helpful advice.

Regarding the topo in the article.

It may be helpful to point out that the upper face is foreshortened with far more climbing than indicated by the photo. IMO the easiest line in the final 300m may be a bit left of that indicated. Gaining the Zmutt ridge about 100m right of the summit is spot on.
TD as an overall grade only applies to ideal conditions. The AC guide used to state the standard of climbing was far more conditions dependent than most alpine faces.

In reply to Dave Searle:

Thanks man. I do have to say, we actually enjoyed sleeping on the summit of the Matterhorn. Not a single other person up there with us Keep getting after it, I love following your Chamonix adventures on your blog.

Cheers,
ilana

In reply to Robert Durran:

Thanks Robert. I appreciate the kind words!

In reply to Damo:

Thanks for your concerns and insightful 'troll' definition, but my feelings aren't hurt by any of this as you referenced above. I'm not new to the internet game and if I let every armchair mountaineer, masked by the security of anonymity, hurt my feelings I'd be quite fragile at this stage of the game. I don't care what you or m1-whatever or Rick something thinks about my climb. Telling me to grow up just gives me a good chuckle. Oh, and for clarification purposes you did mistype my name - its I-L-A-N-A.

Here's to playing the ball,
ilana

In reply to thrillseekerz:

Good blog, enjoyed reading it

In reply to thrillseekerz:


>C,


At the risk of stirring things up again ( not intended ) would like to clarify a few points in your last post.

Armchair mountaineer. I don't get the impression that the most vocal posters on this topic are not accomplished alpinists.

Anonymity. I prefer to post only under my own name. My surname is Graham. Others post under varying degrees of anonymity, often for good reason but this requires another thread to discuss fully.

The honest and robust exchange of views and opinions is essential for the development and validity of climbing websites like UKC.
Others have complained about the back slapping only culture developing.
It can be a dangerous game.

Take care. Wish I had been more careful the other Saturday but that's another story.

Regards to all. Rick

"Here's to playing the ball. " At school, the only sport I was any good at was Hockey, Later, came to the conclusion it was the first sport where you were given a weapon

In reply to thrillseekerz:

Well, I have to agree with M1er... three day IS a long time to spend on the Matterhorn, but I do think his post was unreasonably aggressive. I find myself torn between his criticisms and Rob D's comments.

But then this morning I noticed this in the Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/howaboutthat/10840572/In-p... That does seem to be you.

So now I'd like to ask what is your overriding motivation for your climbing? Is it the route/the mountain or is it driven by the publicity for your website? Genuine question, by the way.

In reply to jon:


Likewise the comment regarding guiding on the blog... doesn't sit easily with me for a few reasons:

"Guide: Don’t have the skills or experience to climb the Matterhorn via its North Face? Hire a guide, if they even guide it or consider a winter ascent up the Hörnligrat, a serious undertaking in itself."

Nevertheless, assuming you harm nobody then climbing is deeply personal and I'm not going to criticise. The pioneers certainly took some ... interesting... risks.

In reply to jon:

No one is denying that, but is it actually a problem, when the weather was settled and the ascent was by all accounts perfectly competent?

If someone else had spent 3 days on the Bonatti route, would that be a problem?

In reply to thrillseekerz:

I'm sure it was fantastic - few things better than a high planned bivi. I sometimes think that the "up and down in a day at all costs" brigade are really missing out.

In reply to Robert Durran:


On reflection, most of my recent posts on this topic , have been influenced by 99.9 % of my epics in the hills resulting from inaccurate weather forecasts or perhaps my inability to assess them.

In reply to Robert Durran:


No, which is why I tempered it with 'I find myself torn between his criticisms and Rob D's comments.' I wouldn't have even posted had I not seen the glaring headlines 'Daredevils scale the Everest of climbing walls in Switzerland' in this morning's Telegraph. Clicking on thrillseekers anonymous prompted me to ask my question.

In reply to Rick Graham:


But if we always waited for a 200% cushion to allow for the unexpected in a forecast weather window we'd never get anything done!

In reply to Robert Durran:


That's why we have occasional epics and speed is a factor in safety.

In reply to Rick Graham:



... and why we moved to Provence!

In reply to m1er1er:











I bet your one of these tools that walks around chamonix bragging about how big your kn** is aren't you?! Enough said.

Good effort on the route!

In reply to Rick Graham:



I don't have that impression either, in fact I know some of those most critical are actually fine Alpinists with an excellent record of achievements.

But there is a strong whiff of snobbery and "we know best", about their comments. After all, they didn't have an epic and they got the route done, it is not as if this is a metaphorical (or literal) post mortem after an incident. Also, Ilana should be excused her reaction as she has just achieved a major ambition and wanted to talk about it and expected that others would share her exuberance and delight, this being a climbing site and all, but got snide and spiteful digs from some. That tends to provoke a reaction in most of us, action and reaction being equal and opposite.



Some "sports" make Alpinism seem positively safe. At least it is only the mountains that are against you, normally anyway.

In reply to jon:



It's for the love of the mountains. That story was purchased from me and I receive royalties for it. We opted to climb the Luzzone Dam for novelty factor on our rest day following climbing the Liongrat of the Matterhorn. The royalties from the story, helps fund our travel costs for the insatiable passion we have to be in the mountains, where we are happy. Hope that answers the question you have?

In reply to thrillseekerz:


It does indeed.