UKC

Sorry for the essay first of all.

I'm trying to work out what description or bracket of MTB is the right one for me. I've read quite a few guides but I'm still confused as to how much travel, whether I'm looking for All Mountain, Trail, XC or something else?

To summarise (if you don't want to read it all):-

- I have a decent XC bike for long non-gnarly days, pootling, bridleways, however I find it's steep HA a bit of a handfull when things get more technical
- Would like something confidence inspiring for trail centres, loops in the Lakes which are more technical than simple bridleway XC outings
- Something with good balance of handling, up and downhill ability and weight
- I haven't ever tried full sus
- I've not ridden a 29er
- I'm 6'1" and averagely proportioned so a web-only buy in a large is probably going to be okay
- Erring towards full-sus and would want something that is going to work out of the box and could up the budget if need be. I don't know enough of the technicalities at the moment to be able to tweak suspension too much myself or even know what is good and less so (read a lot where people change to different shocks from stock, I wouldn't know where to start so may as well get something decent to start with)
- I'm quite picky with my road bikes and like good equipment and set up, I'm pretty practical, have a wide ranging tool set and will quickly learn about the latest stuff and will do my own maintanence where required
- would like something to grow into
- with other purchases I've started cheaper and worked my way up, this is my only opportunity to get something reasonably decent so want to get something that suits from the off
- I live in NW Lancs so have easy access to lots of places to ride
- With unlimited budget my guess is a modern 29 HT and a high spec full-sus AM/trail bike with 120-140 mm travel would cover me for everything I'd want to do (fun trips and longer mixed up XC rides) but as budget is not unlimited I'm erring towards just the full sus trail bike
- Another possibility is to rebuild my Orange E8 with a more slack, possibly steel frame for HT fun and then another bike to fill any holes
- Happy to build whole bike, including wheels

Can anyone help me narrow down options to type(s) of bike, suitable travel, brands and things/pitfalls to avoid? I really appreciate your help.

Non-summarised version:-

I appreciate no-one can probably answer exactly for me but if you can help me narrow it down I can then at least start to see what sort of bikes I can try.

Background: I have an original Clockwork Orange that I still ride. I love its stability and easy handling, I assume it is a little bit slack at the front end.

I also have an Orange E8 World Cup that I find a bit twitchy and unstable but great uphill and for general XC. I do find it a bit of a handful at trail centres and have been over the bars more than once.

I expect that will have more to do with my bike handling skills but still I would like to buy a bike that balances stability for downhills and speed, inspire confidence whilst still being manageable uphill. I'm a pretty fit roadie and a good climber and won't mind a little bit of extra heft going uphill (but of course lighter is better) and have done a few 50-100 mile long off road routes in the Lakes and I'm ok on the red trails in Lakes and Lancs.

I should have a fairly decent budget come the New Year (2000-3500) and would like to fill the gap that my XC isn't so good at whilst still being able to ride it all day should I want to as I'll only be riding one bike at a a time.

Bikes I've been looking at:-

ikes I've been looking at:-

Nukeproof Mega
http://www.ubyk.co.uk/nukeproof-mega-am-pro-2015/20554

Cube Stereo
http://www.jejamescycles.co.uk/cube-stereo-140-hpc-race-29-mountain-bike-id...

Santa Cruz Bronson
http://www.ubyk.co.uk/santa-cruz-bronson-650b-trail-bike/14140?gclid=CJL8sd...

Whyte G150
http://www.cyclesurgery.com/pws/UniqueProductKey.ice?ProductID=CWHY0237EE&a...

Lapierre 829
http://www.mtbmonster.com/lapierre-zesty-tr-829-2015/?gclid=CKHto5OQicICFYH...

Canyon Nerve
http://www.canyon.com/en/mountainbikes/series/nerve-al.html

Mondraker Foxy R
http://www.evanscycles.com/products/mondraker/foxy-r-275-2014-mountain-bike...

When I bought my Clockwork in 93 it was the only bike to have, things were much simpler then!

In reply to Escher:
Don't discount modern long-travel steel hardtails, as there's loads of good ones (especially British ones) about, and I reckon they're the best fun going. If I had the readies, I'd go for a Stanton Switchback (650b, but they do a 29er and a 26er version too) - they do a full build for about £2k and that includes dual position Rock Shox Pikes, so you can wind them between 120mm and 160mm depending on what you're riding on at the time.

http://www.stantonbikes.com/content/switchback-available-now

In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

Thanks MP, I'll have to widen my narrowing down attempt then!

Is the idea with adjustable travel that you set it to 120 for XC and a steeper HA, and slacken it for the downhills with 160? Won't the seat angle change too much and mess up the handling?

In reply to Escher:


Goodness me, are you in for a treat. I would go either go for a 140-150mm trail bike which, according to your links, is pretty much what you're looking at. Add to your list the Trek Remedy and Specialized Enduro.

The only real decision you have to make is whether to go with 29" wheels, in which case you would probably only need 120mm travel. The only way to decide that is with a test-ride.

In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:


I love steel hardtails, I ride my (geared) Inbred several times a month. But OP already has two hardtails, I think he needs a bit of full-sus in his life!

In reply to Escher:

Ask on the SingleTrackWorld forums - your list will be five times as long in as many posts

I've a full suspension bike (2006 Marin Mt Vision 26" wheels) and a hardtail (Cotic Solaris 29er), I hardly ever use the FS anymore as the HT is more than good enough for the riding I do which is pretty much what you describe doing. I'm sure that a quality modern FS bike would be equally as good but without unlimited funds I'm not about to upgrade the Marin. As MonkeyPuzzle says, modern steel hardtails, the Solaris is one, are brilliant fun - my grin goes up to 11 .

FWIW with regard to wheel size I didn't find much difference between (old style) 26" wheels and the 650b/27.5" wheels whereas I noticed a huge difference with the 29" wheelsize.

My wife's a Juliana (the women's brand from Santa Cruz) Furtado FS and rates it, when I asked how much it was I got the reply: "It's the blue one"! Note that SC aren't going down the press-fit bottom bracket route, they still use Hollowtech BBs. Not sure if there's a dealer over your way but Stif Cycles near Pateley Bridge have a full selection, I think they are the Santa Cruz importers these days. I know one or two people with Bronsons/Tall Boys and they are pretty discriminating in what they ride.

In reply to Escher:

Add Marin Mount Vision XM8 to the list. 650b 140mm. I've ridden over 1500km since April on mine and because of my job have ridden everything from full-on, natural techie stuff in Scotland, the Lakes and Snowdonia (inc Snowdon/Torridon etc) right through to wide chalky bridleways on the Purbeck Hills and the South Downs. In between I've ridden pretty much all the Wales trail centres from blue to black (guiding) and BPW...

It climbs like a dream and descends even better. Eventually the bike mags will cotton on to just how good the relaunched Marins are but for now they are a bit of a secret!

Small print - I am sponsored by them but that doesn't mean I have to write this. I would buy one if I wasn't on the strength of what I've seen this year.

In reply to Escher:

Looks like I need to find someone with a long travel steel HT, a modern 650B FS trail machine, a HT 29er then ride them all and find out that they're all brilliant and then rob a bank! Trouble is I love how good bikes all have different personalities and entertain in their own ways. Not sure I'm going to get this down to one bike and be able to make my mind up but I can't imagine I'll be particularly disappointed with any of them.

Always liked the look of Santa Cruz, that new Marin sounds really good but have also always fancied a Cotic too. Plus I use to have a Stanton BMX. Hmm, just as well I'm going to have to wait a couple of months. Cheers all.

In reply to Escher:


Yep, it's exactly for that. Re the seat angle, it depends on the frame, but the Stanton's designed to take it, and something like a Cotic BFe will run anything 120-160 too.

In reply to Escher:
Just bought one of these for more or less the kind of riding you're after. 150mm travel at the front but still climbs well (12.5kg) and the Pike fork is pretty damn impressive...I don't think you could pick up a better spec bike for the money for an all round trail bike-

http://www.canyon.com/en/mountainbikes/bike.html?b=3558

By the way, I demoed the mondraker foxy and hated the geometry so definitely test it before you buy it, its looooong!

In reply to Escher:

- Forget 29ers, focus on 650B for that type of riding (someone will be along shortly to disagree).

- Go Full Suss 150mm minimum (650B HT are fun for sure, but you only want one bike (I owned a 650B Commencal Meta HT with 170mm forks and had a blast, but gone back full sus again, 650B this time)

I'd also take a look at the Whyte, Saracen Killi Ariel, Kona Process and perhaps a Giant. Or try and pick up a SC Bronson 2nd hand.

There is a bewildering amount of choice at the moment, for sure.

Not heard great things about Canyon long term maintenance & cust service - any thought simonxzr?. The Moondrakers I've seen seem to be made of tin foil - very tinny frames.

In reply to ChrisJD:

I think the wheel size debate will run and run (or should that be roll and roll? )

Do you know anyone with a Boardman MTB? I know a few with road bikes who are pleased with them but don't know how their MTB range rates. For £1600 this looks good value - http://www.halfords.com/cycling/bikes/mountain-bikes/boardman-mountain-bike... There's a slightly less well specced bike at £1000

To the OP:

I'd try and narrow things down to two or three bikes and try and demo them, what one person loves (including me) another will hate and it's an expensive thing to get wrong. A lot of people rave about the Orange 5, my wife loved the women's version, but I just didn't get on with it on a demo ride. Is it a bad bike? No, it's just not for me though spending time on getting it setup properly might be worthwhile.

In reply to Escher:
Where are you based?

The key is to ride as many bikes as you can (which may not be too easy but is well worth the £50 you might get charged) one way of doing this is hiring good bikes at trail centres to give you an idea). You mention trail centres etc, what grades are you riding? Have you done or intend to do any stuff in the alps etc?

I ride a lapierre xflow 26" 120mm xc bike as my fast xc/bridleway machine, it has quite a steep ha but with a big volume tyre coped ok with the alps the first time i went out, but did feel limiting towards the end of the week, however on trail centres in the uk this is my fastest bike for a circuit if not on the downhills, and it is superb up hill. (the zesty you linked to is probably half way between my xflow and my pivot)

My other bike is a pivot mach6 650b 160mm travel bike with beefier forks (36mm) this bike will eat up anything technical, and has really made smile, the slack front end begs to be driven faster and harder through corners and technical stuff, and in muddy, rooty conditions the bike is a riot...taking it to the alps this year was great, nothing to be nervous about, and took everything in its stride. The down side is its heavier, and harder up the hills, but for its travel it is a relatively good climber and doesnt bob under pedaling unless you really hammer it.

It does sound to me if you are happy with your xc bike and want to keep it, then going for a longer travel slack trail bike will be a good choice, as an inbetween bike might not be different enough to the hard tail (nor excell at both xc and bigger enduro stuff). Despite my bikes being different, I find myself riding the big bike a lot more than I expected because of the fun factor, and im less bothered now about how quickly I do a 20mile loop for example as a result.

In reply to Bob:


As if by magic - http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/130-140mm-29er140-150mm-275-full-su...

In reply to Escher:
Having broken my bike and borrowing one of these for a recent Enduro race http://www.canyon.com/en/mountainbikes/bike.html?b=3603 I would say this is pretty much exactly what you want.

More than good enough for tough downhill rides (Dudes of Hazzard Enduro in Kinlochleven) but still very light and exceptionally capable as a good xc bike.

In reply to ChrisJD:
Yes, Canyon did mess me about a bit with my order but I think their stock control system is a bit rubbish. As far as long term maintenance goes, we will see. I don't think anyone should go for a Canyon if they're not prepared to get their hands dirty as you don't have the option of popping into the LBS for any issues that may arise- it's the trade off you get as you would not get the same spec bike from mainstream manufacturers for less than £4k. Can't fault the build quality though and the red paint job is very nice in person!

Dangerous Dave's link is the 29er version of mine. I went for the 650b mostly because I knew it would not be a huge difference from a 26- also the 650b is slightly lighter and £200 cheaper so as you've got to especially want 29er wheels to go for it I think.

In reply to simonzxr:

>As far as long term maintenance goes, we will see. I don't think anyone should go for a Canyon if they're not prepared to get their hands dirty as you don't have the option of popping into the LBS for any issues that may arise- it's the trade off you get as you would not get the same spec bike from mainstream manufacturers for less than £4k.

Sort of consistent with mates experience - I saw his full suss Canyon (not sure of model) in the LBS getting rear linkage bearings sorted. The LBS mechanic was tearing his hair out - so many parts and pretty fiddly. (mate does love the bike though).

In reply to Bob:

From what I've heard (from people who know much more than I do) is that a big problem with 29er is that they just carry too much speed into corners, which means things go wrong in the corner, leading to slower exit speeds compared to a 650B bike. (its the exit speeds that win DH races apparently...)

In reply to ChrisJD:

I know what you mean about speed - my 29er HT picks up speed very quickly at the slightest downhill. OK if you know what's coming but can get exciting otherwise and you have to be prepared to throw your weight around a lot more to keep things under control

With any corner (whether car, motorbike or bike) slow in, fast out is the mantra. If you go in too quickly then you have to brake in the corner which is never a good thing as you are overloading the contact points and something is going to give! You need the right entry speed/momentum so that you don't brake and as the corner begins to open up you can begin to apply power again.

In reply to Bob:

Or: Fast as you dare in = fast as possible out

Slow is never a good word to use

In reply to ChrisJD:

Or, fast as you can in and exist over the apex.

For the OP, these things are nightmare. One mans AM is another mans Trail, one mans dream machine is another mans duffer. Example, Trek Remedy (2011, Old Skool wheels) despite what many might tell you it was a complete duffer when life got a bit steep, rough and interesting. Couldn't get on with it so replaced it with a Saracen Ariel, knocks the Trek into a cocked hat as far as I am concerned.

Which leads me to suspension. I'd be more inclined to think about the type of suspension as much, if not more, than the length of travel out back. I have spent a lot of time on steel hardtails (still do, Cotic BFe) and find that I much prefer full suspension with a single pivot/rocker which is approaching the horizontal (like the Ariel, or Nukeproof Mega) than exotic linkages and cleverness out back, like the Remedy and others. Of course my choice is based on where I ride and how I ride and that may be very different to you.

Likewise up front I would suggest you consider more than just travel length. I have a bike with a 32mm 140 travel fork and another with 34mm diameter, on rough stuff (think steep, rocky trails) the latter holds a line a whole lot better than the former. You can overcome some problems with stock set up forks with a bit of considered tweeking but if the stanchion diameter and length make it behave like a noodle there is nowt you can do bar replacing it.

All of which means, go ride different bikes with different set ups and see what works for you.

In reply to Escher:

I have to say I am amazed at how well my Spectral Al 8.0 climbs, I barely ever put it in climb and just leave it in trail. Descending wise, well it is much better than me! The thing I would warn about is the top tube length. I think it is a little short and you will definitely need to err on the larger size.

I haven't had it long enough to comment on maintenance.

In reply to Horse:

Or Too Fast in ... Exit A&E

In reply to ChrisJD:



Yes, slow wasn't perhaps the right word, something like "slower than you'd expect" is closer to the mark. If you get it right then you shouldn't be braking in the corner. It should be obvious that the later you leave the braking the faster you'll be which is why DH bikes have such good brakes: you can leave the braking until the very last minute without having to brake in the corner.

Eeek!! We are getting well away from the OP's original request.

In reply to balmybaldwin:

I live between Lancaster and Kendal so have loads within easy distance, have ridden in Grisedale, Gisburn, limestone stuff in the South Lakes, Howgills and natural stuff in the Lakes. I haven't ridden off road much this year as I broke my shoulder in the spring and have wanted to avoid any crashes on it so have been mostly on the road. It takes me a while to get my head back into off road stuff and even then I'm a bit of a wuss. I've ridden the reds at Whinlatter, Gisburn and Grisedale lots of times and there are couple of steep rocky downhill bits on the two former trails that I don't fancy on my XC bike (or perhaps any bike!) and walk down them, so I'm not the boldest but I'm fit so make up for it with keen-ness and will often go round several times or extend a ride out to 75 miles. I get passed by pretty much everyone on the downhill and flat sections as my bike just clatters all over the place and it's a handful to keep in a straight line, that and being a bit of a pussy and others just seem to float over the rough stuff but I always pass them again uphill. I'd like to be more confident on intermediately technical ground through a combination of just riding them more plus having a bike that isn't quite so twitchy. It's fine on XC as it's light and has a fairly aggressive position. My road bike has a pretty big saddle to bar drop and stretched out position so I am used to having a flat back. I don't particularly like being too upright.

So, no, I doubt I'll ever do anything in the Alps. I'm not very bold but I'd like to improve so a long travel AM bike is probably overkill for me, most of the bikes I linked to were best in tests for AM/Trail bikes, hence my question really, to try and pin down what is the right area to be looking at for the riding I do. I haven't progressed onto harder stuff (black and orange) as I only just feel confident enough with what I've done already, my current forks have 80mm of travel and do feel quite flexy. Therefore I'd like a bike that is confidence inspiring that won't be as much of a handful to ride. If I really get on with it then I'd want to master things a bit more and progress but without having ridden anything else I don't know whether that'll happen. So at the very least I'd like an up to date bike that is going to be a whole heap of fun to ride and I'll carry on doing what I'm doing, but with so much on my doorstep I'll have plenty of opportunities to ride lots.

In reply to Dangerous Dave & Simonzxr:

Really like the look for Canyons for sure, I guess the risk and more so than with a road bike is finding you don't get on with it. I think that's pretty unlikely though.

Would be happy to do my own maintenance though. Have done pretty much everything (built bikes, wheels, set up hydraulics etc) apart from looking after linkages and shocks. I'd be happy to learn though.

In reply to Horse:


I guess this is exactly what I need to do. I have no idea what I will or won't like and as with most things it takes a while living with something to work out what works for you personally.

Does anyone know the deal with demos? I think between Whinlatter, Grisedale and maybe Wheelbase in Staveley I'll be able to sort out quite a few test rides and hires? Quite happy to pay for that, I'll think of it as part of the deal to get a bike that's just right.

In reply to Guy:

Thank you that's useful to know, I don't know what affect that has on handling but I think from a comfort perspective I prefer a longer TT

In reply to Bob & ChrisJD:

It's all useful stuff though! I think I prefer confidence over all out speed!

In reply to Escher:

You might prefer the Strive Al race then. I reckon that would be a fantastic machine.

In reply to Escher:

>'m not very bold but I'd like to improve

After you get your new bike, book yourself on one of Ed Oxleys courses. He'll sort you out.

http://great-rock.co.uk/courses/

In reply to Escher:

One problem with demos is how the bike has been set up.

It's all well and good having great suspension components & design, but if the forks and shock aren't set up right, then the bike will ride like a duffer.

In reply to ChrisJD:

+1 to this

I went on his Stop Crashing Pt1 course a few weeks ago. Covered bike setup; body position; trackstands; cornering; line choice; pre-weighting/pumping; off-camber. He does pt1 & pt2 on successive days but I haven't done pt2 yet as I want to get the stuff from pt1 sorted so I don't have to think about it, i.e. practice, practice. They are at Gisburn Forest so handy for the OP.

In reply to Bob:

Was that the 11th Oct?

If it was - you met my better half

In reply to ChrisJD:

Hmm, check emails ...

No it was the 30th August - a lot longer in the past than I thought.

In reply to Bob:


You had a close call, lol

(checks over shoulder)

(just joking, she's great)

In reply to Escher:

Isn't that a lot of money to spend on a bike? Or are you one of those baby boomers who are discussed elsewhere on UKC? If so, are you forgoing the cruise next year?

In reply to Tom Valentine:

Nope

In reply to Tom Valentine:


Hello! I'm sure your old mum thinks you are very witty, but in this thread, nobody does! So please take your sarcastic opinions somewhere else, as they are neither welcome nor helpful here! Thank you!

In reply to Bob:

V interesting what you were saying about personal taste v setup etc. I had a Cannondale Gemini for a short while (after seeing that it was the "go to" bike of many alpine guides back in the day) and didn't really like the feel of the single pivot at all. When it got nicked (grrrr!) I went back to a simple four-bar linkage frame, and have stayed with something similar ever since.

In reply to OP:


I can't decide whether this is a good thing or not. On the one hand, you won't experience what is widely accepted to be the best mountain biking in the world (or at least, certainly in Europe).

On the other hand, you also will never suffer from "the alpine hangover" - a dreadful condition which lasts several weeks, when you come back from holidays and realise that all your local trails are boring

In reply to Alun:

When I hinted that I thought it was a lot of money to spend on a bike, I wasn't being sarcastic at all: I actually think it is.

I suspect that all the unfortunate people referred to in the other thread who can't find enough for a mortgage deposit will also think it a bit steep, but you may know better.

As for my mother, she died when I was 18 so she hasn't got much of an opinion about whether I'm witty or not.

In reply to Tom Valentine:

Then perhaps you should have made that clearer when you made your original post, or better still, started a new thread, where you might have get some constructive replies. As it was, your post came across as sarcastic and unhelpful - which is precisely why you received a reply in a similar vein. I'm asking myself now why I bothered to reply to you, but then I'm also puzzled as to why you posted in the first place. Sigh, the internet is a strange place. Enjoy the rest of you day.

In reply to Alun:

I posted because it seems anomalous to me that from the same group of people we have some who are struggling to find enough money to put together a mortgage deposit and some who think £3500 is a reasonable amount to pay for a cycle. Hopefully the two groups are mutually exclusive.
Being a baby boomer I felt that some of the flak was directed at me, with my house paid off, my pension and my bus pass. But seeing other people on UKC debating the merits of cycles in that price range makes me feel a bit less guilty about my good fortune, so in a way, I'm genuinely grateful.

In reply to ChrisJD:



Is that something that can easily be set up before demoing a bike or would I need to take that into account when trying any bike out?

In reply to Bob: I've looked into those skills courses before, will definitely have to book one up. Ta

In reply to Alun: Thanks Alun, I think I'll need to brush up on my skills a bit first but if I do get competent enough then I'll have to add off-road alpine biking to my long list of must do things looking forward to trying out a FS bike for the first time, hopefully it will be a case of 'what have I been missing!'

In reply to Tom Valentine:

This is a the cycling forum of UKC - you be wanting to post (or start a new thread) in Off-Belay, The Pub or Culture Bunker. I refer you to the Fourm Guidelines.

In reply to Tom Valentine:

Well, I've not quite got to the bus pass and pension stage but my mortgage is paid off and have zero other debts so have quite a bit of disposable income. I'm lucky but do realise that not everyone is in the same boat.

You'll have everyone on here from kids still at school who have to save to buy a rope or pair of rock shoes all the way through those who've bought in to the "get now pay later" lifestyle to those like ourselves. So it's not surprising that you get such a wide variety of postings.

To Escher:


Unless the bike has previously set up for a hard riding 20 stone rider (and they do exist in mountain biking) or conversely a 10 stone wimp then it should be reasonably close. It's not too hard to set up to get within 10% of where you should be with the basic compression as it's based on rider weight but things like rebound can be a bit harder to dial in as it depends both on rider weight and how aggressive you ride - the suspension unit (forks or shock) need to return back to full extension as quickly as possible but not so quick and so violently that it bounces you upwards - get too much rebound on the rear shock and you'll be thrown forward over the bars! You also need to balance front and rear.

It's worth having a look on the web for skills videos as coming from mainly road biking where everything is geared (sic) towards efficient transfer of power in to forward movement quite a few MTB skills seem counter-intuitive. Mostly it's about moving your body mass around in relation to the bike to provide control but I find that the way things are often described: "stick your bum behind the saddle" analogous to the old ski instructor's "bend ze knees!" describes the result not the actions leading to it. In the case of skiing it's the twisting of the hips along with pushing the outside hip forwards and down that "bends ze knees", in mountain biking it's keeping your centre of gravity above the bottom bracket whilst the bike swivels around you that puts your bum behind the saddle.

Don't think anyone's mentioned it so far (I didn't follow your original links to check) but a dropper seat post is well worth it - you come to a descent, drop the seat by pressing the button and you got lots more room to move around and the saddle is much less likely to push up and try to unbalance you.

In reply to Escher:

Fairly easy to get them there or there abouts by adjusting air pressures and sag etc, this should be enough to test a bike, but getting the suspension spot on can take a fair amount of tampering.

In reply to balmybaldwin and Bob: nice one, thanks both

In reply to Escher:
Many local bike shops (LBS) really don't have a clue about suspension set up (it may be staff member dependent) and I'd guess that many (most?) people are set up incorrectly. Its not that easy to do - I'm pretty rubbish at it, but know some people who know how to do it.

So its going to make it really tricky to unpack what bikes are good for you and what bikes are not so good! (there are not that many 'bad' bikes anymore) when you go ride them.

What could happen is that you ride a bike that is set up well (even by chance) and buy it because of it. And potentially miss the 'best' bike for you because of poorly set up suspension.. Frankly, I've given up believing most things LBS say - most just want to sell you the brands they stock/know.

I bought my last two bikes without even riding them One way not to get choice inertia!

The first was just great to ride out the box (hard-tail), though I did end up upgrading everything (bar the frame and bars!) as the stock stuff just broke, wore out fast or wasn't up to the job. I'd never buy a complete bike again, unless top end ,,, but self spec may not get it right either - see below.

Current bike I bought Full-Suss frame only and moved as much stuff as I could across from HT. I bought it because I know the brand (and wanted it) and the reviews were very good. But I made bad choices with forks and shock - ended up not that happy at all with the ride. Sought great advice, swapped out forks and shock, tuned and set up right and now the thing is incredible to ride. Couldn't be happier. Couple of downhill section KOMs today (Strava saddo that I am), so I know its going well.

So yes, it can be a minefield.

Possible answers:

(i) find a really good LBS
(ii) go to the bike shop with someone who knows what they are doing
(iii) buy a bike on the basis of a combination of reviews, brand choice, looks (its got to look good!), recommendations (perhaps a quick ride) and then get it set up right
(iv) do none of the above and hope you chose right.

In reply to ChrisJD:

My post was about the price of a cycle. How is this not relevant to the forum?

In reply to Tom Valentine:

<sighs>

In reply to Tom Valentine: And to answer your question: no I am not a baby boomer. I finally managed to buy a house 2 years ago after renting for 17. I've just been made redundant from a job I've had since school and to cheer myself up I'm dreaming about buying myself a really nice bike. I've wanted one for years and years and could never afford it. I am getting a small lump sum in a few months when my employment is terminated and I am thinking about spending some of it on a bike as is my choice, just the same as if you were my situation you could choose to do what you like with your money. I'm also getting a new boiler as I couldn't afford that either, if that helps at all. Cycling brings me unparalled enjoyment and spending this amount will be worth it to me. This is a one off opportunity for me to buy my dream bike. I can't imagine I will ever get the chance again. Whether or not that assuages your baby boomer guilt I have no idea but you read a great deal more into my OP than was ever there.

Thanks to all for your help BTW, I'm not sure I've made my list any smaller but I know a bit more about what I should be looking for!

In reply to Escher:


The UKC warm glow

In reply to Escher:

Sorry about your redundancy, glad you've got on the housing ladder, especially pleased that you haven't prioritised the dream bike above a new boiler.
Hope you're back in a job soon. Best wishes.

I hope I'm a bit more clued up than my OP first appears so I think I'll probably be going with iii. I also would prefer to build up a bike myself as I do with road bikes but I think it's going to be more cost effective to get a full build this time especially something like a Canyon and once the tinkering, tweaking and swapping out starts then I can start gathering the spares to accidentally adorn a mysterious second frame with all the spares . This kind of behaviour is of course inevitable! But to hear everyone's opinions of what they like and don't is really useful to help me pin down what to get. Coupled with some demos, not necessarily on one of the bikes on my list will give me a good idea at least of what modern bikes are capable of. Using all that to make decision and picking something highly regarded I really can't imagine I'm going to anything other than as happy as a pig in ****!

In reply to Escher:


Sorry, didn't mean to imply you weren't clued up.

Just trying to bring my experience to it - I've been riding full suss for 20 years (27 years total MTB) - 6 different full sus bikes along the way and 4 HT: and still managing to get set up/choice wrong)! Get there in the end though.

Good luck and keep us in the loop

In reply to ChrisJD: Oh no sorry, didn't mean to imply you implied! What I meant was that yours is brilliant advice and I'm confident that going with suggestion iii will mean I get a great bike, rather than chancing my arm. In that with the great advice plus The fact I do know more than I sound like I do that it should all work out. That's the trouble with the written word! I'll be asking more questions I'm sure so you'll have little chance of not hearing more from me . Talking about bikes is a good way to fill in time when you aren't out riding one.

In reply to Escher:
LOL - An Imply Implode

In reply to Escher:

Plenty of good advice above... and choosing a 'dream' bike is a process that you should take your time over and enjoy.
But if you've narrowed it down to a number of potential options then it's well worth keeping your eye out for end of season sales - as you might be swayed by being able to pick up one of your potential dream bikes a lot cheaper (and/or find some higher spec models in budget).

I got very lucky when my LBS had a pre-Christmas sale of Orange bikes and saved £700 on a FS Orange 5 Pro..

Cheers
Mark

In reply to Escher:

How's the bike selection coming along?

In reply to ChrisJD:

I went out on a group MTB ride last weekend around Ingleborough. Had a go on someone's Cube carbon 29er, it was amazing! He'd lightened it up from the standard spec: 1 x 10, carbon bits and rigid forks so it was about 9.2 kg. I was completely taken aback by how it accelerated, it honestly felt like it was power assisted. I had no idea that a modern bike would pedal so easily. It was a real wrench getting back on my bike! In its day it was a top spec XC bike but in comparison it's a slovenly lard arse, a real lump. I liked how it rolled over everything and I liked the short stem and wide handlebars (I have the opposite on my bike), the steering felt both nimble and precise but not twitchy. I did feel much more confident on it although I didn't ride anything particularly gnarly on it. The only way I can describe the experience is that it was like riding a modern carbon road bike after only having ridden an 80s steel racer. The difference was that stark. MTBs seem to have improved no end in the last 12 years.

Since then I've put 100mm forks on my E8, (it had 80mm) and that has improved the handling and slackened it a little. When I swapped bikes with the 29er owner he confirmed my bike was a handful, so it isn't all about me being a pussy . I took it up Garburn pass and it was easier To ride although I didn't ride all the gnarliest bits.

Then I went and drooled over the bikes in Wheelbase for an hour, checked over the cubes and the Whyte 29c which had a longer top tube, which may suit me better. which leads me to where I am now:-

I'm now not happy to keep my E8 as my General XC bike. So I want something that will be good for General XC plus general trail riding so I think I'm down to these options:-

- one bike to do it all. Probably a high spec carbon 29er (maybe a Scott scale, cube HTC pro, canyon Grand Canyon CF)
- a carbon 29er (such as cube GTC agree, or whyte 29c) and a steel hard tail frame (Cotic soul maybe) longer travel forks and swap my 8 speed XT group over to it. Probably 27.5
- a short travel XC FS bike like a Giant Anthem and maybe a 29er frame to swap bits to
- or a lower spec 29er HT and! a trail FS

Any bike will have to be damn good to beat the 29er, I had a grin from ear to ear and just loved it so it may be that that is exactly the bike for me. But I am intrigued to know quite how good other modern bikes are as I was so astounded by that one. I've always wanted a FS bike probably for no other reason than bike lust but until I ride one I guess Im never going to know. The 29er suited my style of riding down to the ground, I love to cover ground quickly and really burn so calories, it's just downhill where I'm not so good. The unanswered question is whether a more trail oriented bike would see my flying downhill where I've baulked at it before, or whether I'll always be a bit tentative regardless. I think it will probably be the latter. And in that case the first choice is the one. But as this will probably be my only chance to get a good FS bike and I would need to ride it for a few months to discover whether I'd get bolder or not. So that's my quandary, buy something gnarlier to see if I do grow some balls, and if I don't wish I'd got the lighter bike, or get the lighter one and carry on wondering.

In reply to Escher: i upgraded this year from a steel hard tail of some age to a scott scale 930 and had exactly the same experience as you. So junk your option 2 as the steel hardtail won't get ridden.

Option 3 is unlikely. Go for 1, or 4, or start looking at second hand ads

In reply to Escher:

Never ridden a full suss? Jesus Christ. Buy one of these bad boys and never look back. http://www.canyon.com/en/mountainbikes/bike.html?b=3667

In reply to Escher:

Given the wide range of trails and styles of mountain biking I don't think one bike can "do it all" - depends on the rider of course but most of us aren't good enough to do a full DH course on a HT or strong enough to ride a DH rig on all-day XC trails.

Like you, I like long days covering lots of ground but I'm at a (comfortable) limit doing red runs at trail centres on my HT, I'd say 95% of my riding is on natural trails and only 5% at trail centres. I can do most of the rockier trails in the Peak on it but it isn't pretty and I know that a FS would partly make up for my lack of skills. Having said that, very few people really approach the limits of a bike, it's usually their skill that comes up short.

I'd look for a demo bike for a 29er FS, even hire one for a week, get it set up for *you* and see how it suits you. Try and do the Tour of Ingleborough ride you did the other day on it at the same pace so you have an idea of the differences between the FS and the HT. You are looking at dropping a lot of cash and you don't want those niggling doubts about "have I bought the right one". Not many people are rich enough to drop £3K on a bike every year and so get a true feel for how different bikes handle, we get a bike that's close enough for our needs. Maybe a skills course with someone like Ed Oxley would help sort your downhill skills after which it's practice, practice, practice.

The Whyte t-129/130 get good write-ups but I've not ridden one. Given your height and predilection for longer XC rides I'd chose the Solaris frame over the Soul 275 if you were going to get a steel HT frame as a second bike but you could leave that decision for a while.

In reply to wbo: I agree, seems sensible to me.

In reply to mischaHY: going to have to hire me something decent to find out

Bob, do you know the deal with hiring bikes? Looking at premium hiring they seem to be for the day only and at the associated trail centre. Is it possible to just have a chat with an LBS and arrange something? I would like to try a bike on some routes I know as you suggest. Wheelbase have a demo day in March, not sure I can wait that long though, this is already turning out to be a much more considered purchase than I've managed before, I normally cannot resist for long! But I'm really enjoying the window shopping.

In reply to Escher:

Not sure about hiring for a week - perhaps a weekend might be as good as you can manage. I'd get the shop to help you with the set-up especially as you haven't had a FS before so none of the "I'm a bloke so I know what I'm doing" malarky! If the shop sets each bike up to show it off with adjustments for your weight/height/reach then you'll get a good starting point.

A good XC loop round Staveley if you use Wheelbase is over the Green Quarter (flowing moorland track) to Longsleddale (steep descent), then back over from Sadgill (steep climb) to Kentmere (long fast descent on track), up from Kentmere Hall (long climb on track) and down the Three Rivers descent (mixed terrain with short rocky sections) to Croft Head. Plenty of variety in terrain and technicality (not too much!) should give you an idea of how the bike handles over different terrain.

In reply to Bob:
Thanks Bob

In reply to Escher:

A little update. Been out a couple of times at Gisburn to practice some skills after actually reading about what I should be doing rather than making it up. The attack position feels really good and I've decided that I'm going to learn to manual before I croak, it might take as long as that too.

I've put 100mm forks on, wider bars and a shorter stem on my E8 and it handles a lot better than it did and I've got into the habit of putting my seat up and down depending on the terrain. The stuff I enjoy most is the twisty up and down, through the trees slightly technical stuff.

I don't like steep drop offs or anything too steep down hill and I don't think I ever will regardless of how slack the bike is, I'm never going to be the sort or rider who hacks downhill at high speed getting a lot of air. Just not my thing.

Also, now my bike handles a lot better I quite like the directness of a hardtail and I don't mind 26" wheels. I think full sus might be wasted on me, so I'm erring towards a 650B light carbon hardtail. Something that rolls nicely but also I still can chuck about a bit and fitted with a dropper seatpost.

I'm still going to try out other styles of bikes but my short list will be bikes like:-

Scott Scale 730
Giant XTC Advanced 26.5

In reply to Escher: Had a demo on a Whyte 29C-S yesterday at Gisburn Forest. The Whyte is a carbon hardtail 29er but with slightly slacker geometry for a race XC bike than normal meaning it is supposed to be just as much fun on the trails as it is eating up distance fast. And it certainly was both those things.

Bike fitted really well and was a blast to ride, didn't feel at all cumbersome as I've heard some say about 29ers, it was nippy, very maneuverable, easy to ride and filled me with confidence and it just flew down, across and over stuff with aplomb. I really enjoyed riding it. Very soon I wasn't thinking about the bike but only the trail in front of me and pinging down stuff I normally have trouble with. I can only see that improving as I get to know it more.

All the 2015 models are already pre-ordered and sold out but I managed to track down a 2014 model along with a hefty discount. Will pick it up in 10 days. Can't wait! Thanks all your help everyone.