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So, tell me about Alpine Winter Climbing...

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 Robert Lavin 07 Dec 2014
Evening All,

I've got a winter Alpine itch that I need to scratch. I've been meaning to do it for years but have never quite got around to it. Scottish winter, pure ice, summer Alps; all done, but I've never quite managed a winter Alpine trip.

So, how different is winter in the Alps to the Summer? Obviously shorter day length, lower temperatures and more snow but is there anything else that I need to be aware of?

...and what about routes? I know that there won't be a simple answer to this but how does a summer AD translate to winter? Are there "winter" guide books? Just how gnarly is it?

Please enlighten me.

Thanks,

Rob.
 John Alcock 08 Dec 2014
In reply to Robert Lavin:

I much prefer it to the summer. Fewer unpredictable afternoon storms, less crevasses and crowds.
It really helps if you can ski, then you can get to and from climbs fast and have something to do if it storms.
You can also go ice climbing if conditions are bad high up.
You do need to be avalanche aware and yes it can be cold!
 GridNorth 08 Dec 2014
In reply to Robert Lavin:

It can be very "gnarly" but, with modern clothes and equipment, far less serious than it once was. To say it can be cold is an understatement. It's difficult to describe to someone who has not experienced it just how extreme cold can feel and what it can do to you. You have to be very organised in everything you do. Touching a karabiner or any metal for that matter with bare hands can have the skin off for example. The ice can be so hard that the ice axe pick just bounces off but then a few feet higher the ice shatters and "dinnerplates" far more readily. If bad weather closes in you could end up literally fighting for your life. I don't think that making grade comparisons is at all realistic and it's not something I would advise you to undertake unless you can ski. Some will say it's OK with snow shoes but I personally do not think it is. I dislike walking in them and if the weather does deteriorate you have to still have to walk out, which takes far longer than skiing out.

On the other hand, it's far less busy and the weather can be more stable and reliable.
 David Rose 08 Dec 2014
In reply to Robert Lavin:
I think Gridnorth is being too pessimistic. First, it is perfectly feasible to use snowshoes for approaches in the more popular areas, such as the Chamonix Aiguilles, the Argentiere basin and Mont Blanc de Tacul. Snowshoes are also lighter than skis to carry, so if you're not descending the same side of the peak you happen to be climbing, or (as with the Midi) taking a frique down, they may even be advantageous.

You will not encounter hard black ice or serious dinner plate problems if a route is in condition: it's as simple as that. Often ice conditions are much friendlier than in Scotland, and routes are much easier to protect, too: there is rock gear, including in situ pegs, and the ice being usually thicker will take screws much better. Do learn to make Abalakov abseils, btw: a useful recourse if you do have to retreat unexpectedly, though again, more popular routes (such as those on the Pre de Bar and the Tacul) will be equipped for abseil at every belay.

Yes, a big winter storm could be nasty. But winter forecasts tend to be pretty reliable. Just don't set off on a big route if a storm is forecast. There tend to be long periods of stable weather most winters.

You do want a warm jacket, especially for belays, and excellent gloves, plus warm salopettes. But if the weather is good, it shouldn't be too windy, which makes an enormous difference. I would say that actually, you often feel colder in Scotland than in the Alps in in winter: you just won't be climbing high up in "Scottish" conditions, and the air will be a lot drier, so you won't get as damp.

There are many superb routes which are easy of access where you can cut your teeth. From the Plan middle station, the Col du Plan is a good starter route. Longer but no harder is the Mallory - Porter on the Midi: both lead to the Midi frique. At a tougher grade, the Eugster on the Midi or Fil a Plomb on the Plan are excellent. On the Tacul, accessible from the Cosmiques hut and Midi frique, you have the Chere couloir as an entry level route, or the Triangle. The Gabarrou - Albinoni is very well protected and frankly a soft touch at IV, as is the Lafaille. All these routes have abseil descents. The Modica - Noury is solid V, as is the Supercouloir, which also has a VS rock entry pitch unless you do the very hard direct start.

In the Argentiere basin, Petit Viking and the Dolent north goulotte are superb, with abseil descents: just about V, but with good gear. The Swiss route on the Courtes is a lot easier but you have to go to the top of the peak, and then descend the NE slope. The Argentiere hut is your base here. The Verte Coutourier couloir is easy (barely III) but very long and then you must descend the Whymper to the Couvercle hut - a long way, so more serious.

And all that is just the start. Neige Glace et Mixte is your guidebook (now split in two, I think) which has sensible grades and very clear photo illustrations. Enjoy.
Post edited at 16:46
 GridNorth 08 Dec 2014
In reply to David Rose:

You could be right. It's some years since I winter climbed in the Alps and on that occasion we had an epic and not everyone on the mountain made it down. Me and my mate had skis and did but we both got frostbite. I suppose the experience has left me a little over cautious.
 David Rose 08 Dec 2014
In reply to Robert Lavin:
I realise I am devoting my assessment to Chamonix, where winter climbing is so much more accessible because of all the friques and huts. Setting off on a big, remote face in the Oberland would, of course, be a great deal more serious. But if you are climbing gulleys and faces in the more accessible parts of the Mont Blanc range, I reckon winter climbing is less serious and dangerous than summer - almost no rockfall danger, more stable and predictable weather, no chance of lightning. Just be well equipped, carry a bivvy bag and a big thermos each with lots of hot drink. And make sure your headtorch is reliable and has enough battery life.
Post edited at 16:57
OP Robert Lavin 10 Dec 2014
In reply to Robert Lavin:

Thanks all.

Is "Neige,Mixte et Glace" still available or has it been reprinted? Am I mixing it up with some other French guidebook?
 JohnV 11 Dec 2014
In reply to Robert Lavin:
Do not underestimate the risk of cold injury. Invest in some good boots and gloves and make sure you can always feel your toes and fingers.
Snow ice and mixed is still available, two volumes in English or French.
Post edited at 08:54
 David Rose 11 Dec 2014
In reply to Robert Lavin:

Vol 2 (very expensive) http://www.amazon.co.uk/Neige-glace-mixte-massif-Mont-Blanc/dp/2952188130 - this includes the Aiguilles routes (Plan and Midi)

but vol 1 out of stock on Amazon

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Neige-glace-mixte-massif-Mont-Blanc/dp/2952188114


You will be able to read it and photocopy sections at the Office de Haute Montagne (next to the guides' bureau) in Chamonix. Maybe it will be available in shops cheaper, too.
 Mr-Cowdrey 11 Dec 2014
In reply to Robert Lavin:
http://www.bmcshop.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=5388

English version of Snow, Ice and mixed but still expensive.
 chris fox 12 Dec 2014
In reply to Robert Lavin:

When you are tired you forget the simple things. Like Grid North said, carabiners are cold. Don't transfer it from one hand to another via your mouth, trust me, it sticks instantly and the noise of it ripping off your tongue is rather unique !

You crave for the sun !

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