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Adam Ondra has flashed Pirmin Bertle's Chromosome Y, 9a, in the Tribune sector at Charmey, Switzerland.Both this route and its "sister route" Chromosome X, also 9a, were first climbed by Pirmin within 75 minutes of each other a couple of years ago.
Later the same day he made the first ascent of...
Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=69381
In reply to UKC News:
Think I read somewhere else he has climbed like another 30 8c+ routes that he downgraded from 9a? Truly incredible how hard and how often Ondra is climbing. He is in another league from whoever is the next best in the world atm
Think I read somewhere else he has climbed like another 30 8c+ routes that he downgraded from 9a? Truly incredible how hard and how often Ondra is climbing. He is in another league from whoever is the next best in the world atm
In reply to UKC News:
When I started climbing, 9a didn't even exist.
Now we've got 100+ 9a ascents from one person, and 9b+ at the top.
Unbelievable.
When I started climbing, 9a didn't even exist.
Now we've got 100+ 9a ascents from one person, and 9b+ at the top.
Unbelievable.
In reply to simes303:
Might be interesting when he starts to lead two pitch or more of non sport climbs ....seems like a bit of a waste of talent sticking to sport climbs
Might be interesting when he starts to lead two pitch or more of non sport climbs ....seems like a bit of a waste of talent sticking to sport climbs
In reply to USBRIT (time to change your user name by the way):
Trolling again Paul?
I credit you with some idea which makes you worse than Al Evans, who claimed Ondra was a talented wimp here: http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=525370&v=1#x7075476
Ondra has climbed WoGu, a multipitch 8c route with 20m run outs and serious fall potential. There are other examples like this. You don't have to place your own gear to be bold. http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web08x/newswire-adam-ondra-redpoint-wogu
In reply to jsmcfarland:
I guess that if he manages to send Hubble the grade might go the other way, I wonder how far.....
> Think I read somewhere else he has climbed like another 30 8c+ routes that he downgraded from 9a? Truly incredible how hard and how often Ondra is climbing. He is in another league from whoever is the next best in the world atm
I guess that if he manages to send Hubble the grade might go the other way, I wonder how far.....
In reply to paul_in_cumbria:
Or Big Bang, given he has recently mentioned that as being of interest (presumably because it was an early 9a).
Or Big Bang, given he has recently mentioned that as being of interest (presumably because it was an early 9a).
In reply to UKC News:
Who did the FA of Transcription, Adam or Pirmin? It isn't clear from the report.
Who did the FA of Transcription, Adam or Pirmin? It isn't clear from the report.
In reply to flaneur .. Which nationality would you suggest I give up ? Well just saying I would be more impressed if he was putting up more of his own routes ground up like WoGu ,and it seems obvious he would be capable providing he can climb with a drill on his back or very good at hand drilling from free stances.
Post edited at 11:58
In reply to flaneur:
Not to mention the fact, that Adam has climbed trad... some stellar OS on Grit. And a few FA in Norway. Albeit the new line in Norway might have been a mixed route (started with bolts and then continued for another 40m or so... ground up OS FA, and grade was something easy... F8a or so).
> Ondra has climbed WoGu, a multipitch 8c route with 20m run outs and serious fall potential. There are other examples like this. You don't have to place your own gear to be bold. http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web08x/newswire-adam-ondra-redpoint-wogu
Not to mention the fact, that Adam has climbed trad... some stellar OS on Grit. And a few FA in Norway. Albeit the new line in Norway might have been a mixed route (started with bolts and then continued for another 40m or so... ground up OS FA, and grade was something easy... F8a or so).
In reply to USBRIT:
http://novebi.ning.com/profiles/blogs/first-9a-ground-up-by-adam-ondra
> In reply to flaneur .. Which nationality would you suggest I give up ? Well just saying I would be more impressed if he was putting up more of his own routes ground up like WoGu ,and it seems obvious he would be capable providing he can climb with a drill on his back or very good at hand drilling from free stances.
Like this?http://novebi.ning.com/profiles/blogs/first-9a-ground-up-by-adam-ondra
In reply to USBRIT:
I'm not sure where I first saw it, perhaps 'The Wizard's Apprentice', but he bolted To tu ješte nebylo on lead, which is rather impressive as it weighs in at 5:14d, i.e. 9a!
I've never seen the point in this 'ethic' whatsoever - if a route is getting bolted, it should be done properly and safely IMO. If it can't be done that way, don't bolt it.
Some footage of the climbing and drilling here:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xmgq8x_to-tu-jeyty-nebylo-xia-af-adam-ondr...
> ...and it seems obvious he would be capable providing he can climb with a drill on his back or very good at hand drilling from free stances.
I'm not sure where I first saw it, perhaps 'The Wizard's Apprentice', but he bolted To tu ješte nebylo on lead, which is rather impressive as it weighs in at 5:14d, i.e. 9a!
I've never seen the point in this 'ethic' whatsoever - if a route is getting bolted, it should be done properly and safely IMO. If it can't be done that way, don't bolt it.
Some footage of the climbing and drilling here:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xmgq8x_to-tu-jeyty-nebylo-xia-af-adam-ondr...
In reply to Fraser:
Sorry this is mostly aid climbing as I know it. You would find it rather difficult bolting from above as you suggest on climbs with lets say a length of ten pitches,or an unclimbed tower for example.
> I'm not sure where I first saw it, perhaps 'The Wizard's Apprentice', but he bolted To tu ješte nebylo on lead, which is rather impressive as it weighs in at 5:14d, i.e. 9a!
> I've never seen the point in this 'ethic' whatsoever - if a route is getting bolted, it should be done properly and safely IMO. If it can't be done that way, don't bolt it.
> Some footage of the climbing and drilling here:
Sorry this is mostly aid climbing as I know it. You would find it rather difficult bolting from above as you suggest on climbs with lets say a length of ten pitches,or an unclimbed tower for example.
In reply to USBRIT:
Yes, I can understand how and why you would do this on a multi-pitch route, but when aiding would you hang onto the rock to drill or would you do it whilst hanging from a bit of gear?
Yes, I can understand how and why you would do this on a multi-pitch route, but when aiding would you hang onto the rock to drill or would you do it whilst hanging from a bit of gear?
In reply to Fraser:
How a route is bolted means absolutely nothing to me, it doesn't get any extra 'style' or 'ethics' points in my book. I really don't understand what USBRIT is going on about, as far as I understand it seems that making things unnecessarily dangerous is good in his view? :S
How a route is bolted means absolutely nothing to me, it doesn't get any extra 'style' or 'ethics' points in my book. I really don't understand what USBRIT is going on about, as far as I understand it seems that making things unnecessarily dangerous is good in his view? :S
In reply to jsmcfarland:
I've never seen the point in minimalist bolting, whatever the justification. Either bolt stuff properly or do it without (as a trad route).
I've never seen the point in minimalist bolting, whatever the justification. Either bolt stuff properly or do it without (as a trad route).
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In reply to jsmcfarland:
I can't speak for USBRIT (don't know who he is) or his outlook, but the style of first ascent is a much bigger deal in North America than here, with people likely to think of a necky route bolted on lead as being more trad and more gnarly than a hard route headpointed on gear. It's really to do with the size of the rocks out there and style that is appropriate and traditional to them.
I don't really have a view either way, but wanted to flag this cultural gap - it has caused arguments on here before I think!
> How a route is bolted means absolutely nothing to me, it doesn't get any extra 'style' or 'ethics' points in my book. I really don't understand what USBRIT is going on about, as far as I understand it seems that making things unnecessarily dangerous is good in his view? :S
I can't speak for USBRIT (don't know who he is) or his outlook, but the style of first ascent is a much bigger deal in North America than here, with people likely to think of a necky route bolted on lead as being more trad and more gnarly than a hard route headpointed on gear. It's really to do with the size of the rocks out there and style that is appropriate and traditional to them.
I don't really have a view either way, but wanted to flag this cultural gap - it has caused arguments on here before I think!
In reply to hamsforlegs:
Traditionally a trad first ascent in the US meant that it was climbed ground-up, regardless of the gear or bolts used, whereas in the UK it means that it was climbed without bolts, nowadays regardless of pre-practice. One describes the ascent, the other the route. Often they lead to the same outcome but not always.
Traditionally a trad first ascent in the US meant that it was climbed ground-up, regardless of the gear or bolts used, whereas in the UK it means that it was climbed without bolts, nowadays regardless of pre-practice. One describes the ascent, the other the route. Often they lead to the same outcome but not always.
In reply to Michael Gordon:
It makes a route more exciting, more of a mental challenge, but adds some protection so it's not a total chop route. Maybe see it as a challenge laid down by the FA.
I think some part bolted routes in the US, and in Europe, work really well.
> I've never seen the point in minimalist bolting
It makes a route more exciting, more of a mental challenge, but adds some protection so it's not a total chop route. Maybe see it as a challenge laid down by the FA.
I think some part bolted routes in the US, and in Europe, work really well.
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
I think this is why I often don't enjoy minimalist bolting. Full bolted routes (usually) give a fully natural physical challenge. Fully trad routes (usually) give a fully natural physical and mental challenge. But with minimalist bolting the challenge is man-made, a bit like on a climbing wall but where it's the pro that's 'set' rather than the holds.
That said I've also had some good experiences doing sparsely bolted routes so maybe I'm talking rubbish!
> Maybe see it as a challenge laid down by the FA.
I think this is why I often don't enjoy minimalist bolting. Full bolted routes (usually) give a fully natural physical challenge. Fully trad routes (usually) give a fully natural physical and mental challenge. But with minimalist bolting the challenge is man-made, a bit like on a climbing wall but where it's the pro that's 'set' rather than the holds.
That said I've also had some good experiences doing sparsely bolted routes so maybe I'm talking rubbish!
In reply to john arran:
Could you define 'fully natural'?
> Full bolted routes (usually) give a fully natural physical challenge. Fully trad routes (usually) give a fully natural physical and mental challenge.
Could you define 'fully natural'?
> I'm talking rubbish!
Post edited at 11:11
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
To me it's just a poorly bolted route. As I say, would rather all sport or all trad.
To me it's just a poorly bolted route. As I say, would rather all sport or all trad.
In reply to Michael Gordon:
You don't find it at all fun or exciting to climb run out bolted routes?
> To me it's just a poorly bolted route.
You don't find it at all fun or exciting to climb run out bolted routes?
In reply to Michael Gordon:
Bolting on the lead in the US more often than not was the ONLY protection as no natural pro or very little was available. Common practice on sandstone slabs and faces...There is also a difference between bolting from free stances than as show in the Ondra video hanging off a sky hook ..this is aid bolting.Placing a bolt from a free stance means getting into a position were one could hang on free to do just that ..usually easier with a shoulder slung Bosch drill than hand drilling.....still at times not easy
Bolting on the lead in the US more often than not was the ONLY protection as no natural pro or very little was available. Common practice on sandstone slabs and faces...There is also a difference between bolting from free stances than as show in the Ondra video hanging off a sky hook ..this is aid bolting.Placing a bolt from a free stance means getting into a position were one could hang on free to do just that ..usually easier with a shoulder slung Bosch drill than hand drilling.....still at times not easy
In reply to USBRIT:
I haven't watched the video linked because I am at work but I have seen a video of Adam bolting on the lead and hanging off of his arms on a seriously difficult route. I.e. Not aid. (I'm pretty sure about this).
I haven't watched the video linked because I am at work but I have seen a video of Adam bolting on the lead and hanging off of his arms on a seriously difficult route. I.e. Not aid. (I'm pretty sure about this).
In reply to puppythedog:
Sorry I think you are wrong. The first part of the video put on by Frazer shows nothing more than him falling off .. he does not have a drill with him .. the second part of the video with the tree and person in it shows him placing a sky hook ..it comes off first time .. he goes back up clips into something ..you can see hook and sling dangling from his harness ..(could be an other bolt or the sky hook ..leans back.. hanging from sling (this is NOT a free stance)pulls up the drill and the rest is history.. aid bolting.. Cheers
> I haven't watched the video linked because I am at work but I have seen a video of Adam bolting on the lead and hanging off of his arms on a seriously difficult route. I.e. Not aid. (I'm pretty sure about this).
Sorry I think you are wrong. The first part of the video put on by Frazer shows nothing more than him falling off .. he does not have a drill with him .. the second part of the video with the tree and person in it shows him placing a sky hook ..it comes off first time .. he goes back up clips into something ..you can see hook and sling dangling from his harness ..(could be an other bolt or the sky hook ..leans back.. hanging from sling (this is NOT a free stance)pulls up the drill and the rest is history.. aid bolting.. Cheers
In reply to USBRIT:
So you're more impressed by him climbing easy stuff where he can stand around hands-off all day drilling than hard stuff where he has to actually hang on and climb then?
Each to their own I suppose...
So you're more impressed by him climbing easy stuff where he can stand around hands-off all day drilling than hard stuff where he has to actually hang on and climb then?
Each to their own I suppose...
In reply to USBRIT:
Actually, I've gone back and watched more of the video than I did when I posted the link. In the first section, he definitely does have a drill with him, (it's short-clipped just right of his chalk bag) but I hadn't noticed him placing and loading the sky hook. Initially, it looks like it must be on a very short sling on his belay loop, (maybe just the one they sometimes come with), but later he has it on a longer sling, even in the first scene. The scene with the tree, viewing from the side, shows it more clearly.
The point I was trying to make is that this is a 9a route, not some easy 6a+ for example. If you had nice pleasant stances where you could relax a bit, whip out the Hilti and whack in a bolt.....well, it's not very likely to be a 9a,is it?!
I just don't think having a drill bit still rotating at high speed as you ping off a sky-hook or a hold, potentially directly above your head, is a smart situation to find yourself in when equipping a route. How well-cleaned is the drill hole before the expansion bolt gets battered in? These are the factors which, to my mind, constitute less-than-ideal equipping. In fact, it's just plain daft.
Actually, I've gone back and watched more of the video than I did when I posted the link. In the first section, he definitely does have a drill with him, (it's short-clipped just right of his chalk bag) but I hadn't noticed him placing and loading the sky hook. Initially, it looks like it must be on a very short sling on his belay loop, (maybe just the one they sometimes come with), but later he has it on a longer sling, even in the first scene. The scene with the tree, viewing from the side, shows it more clearly.
The point I was trying to make is that this is a 9a route, not some easy 6a+ for example. If you had nice pleasant stances where you could relax a bit, whip out the Hilti and whack in a bolt.....well, it's not very likely to be a 9a,is it?!
I just don't think having a drill bit still rotating at high speed as you ping off a sky-hook or a hold, potentially directly above your head, is a smart situation to find yourself in when equipping a route. How well-cleaned is the drill hole before the expansion bolt gets battered in? These are the factors which, to my mind, constitute less-than-ideal equipping. In fact, it's just plain daft.
In reply to USBRIT:
How many hands-off stances would you expect on the average 9a then?
If drilling on the lead on dodgy aid gear doesn't live up to your exacting standards, then you just wrote off the Bachar-Yerian. What's the hardest non-slab route that's ever been bolted free on the lead?
How many hands-off stances would you expect on the average 9a then?
If drilling on the lead on dodgy aid gear doesn't live up to your exacting standards, then you just wrote off the Bachar-Yerian. What's the hardest non-slab route that's ever been bolted free on the lead?
In reply to Fraser:
I would agree that bolts can not be placed properly with one hand , infact I would say it's more than daft ! If anyone is going to drill any rock anywhere they should show some respect and do it right first time , either hang/aid or abseil down properly or don't place bolts !
I would agree that bolts can not be placed properly with one hand , infact I would say it's more than daft ! If anyone is going to drill any rock anywhere they should show some respect and do it right first time , either hang/aid or abseil down properly or don't place bolts !
In reply to USBRIT:
Are you mad , I'm pretty sure your a troll or you contradicting your self ? If not what's the hardest route you've free bolted ??
> Sorry this is mostly aid climbing as I know it. You would find it rather difficult bolting from above as you suggest on climbs with lets say a length of ten pitches,or an unclimbed tower for example.
Are you mad , I'm pretty sure your a troll or you contradicting your self ? If not what's the hardest route you've free bolted ??
In reply to Colza: and others..... I realise I am trying to give instruction to newish climbers that are totally unfamiliar with on sight ground up first ascents and I really do not have time to write several pages of explanation. Here is one or two answers to your statements 1) Of course one can place a bolt with one hand but only using a battery drill ,you need two hands for hand drilling. In softer sandstone hand drilling does not work as the hand movement produces a hold too big for the bolt .. in that case you can bash in a baby angle ...but that's why the use of a Bosch whatever is preferable and its MUCH quicker.2)You can sky hook on granite and limestone (providing there is something to hook! ) ..BUT very rarely on sandstone its just too soft. 3) It is many times very difficult to bolt on lead in the middle of for example a reasonable difficult pitch as you might be on one foothold of sorts and one hand hold,lets say in the middle of a 5c move ( I admit I have not gone much higher than that as I am old). Friends I climbed with in the US managed to hang about on a much higher grade. 4)Why its difficult ...There are a few different methods of carrying and using a for example Bosch battery drill. Here is one... shoulder slung... with one hand . Life over your head ,lift drill up with one hand (my old drill was 12 pounds last drill 6.5 pounds)..drill hole straight.. replace drill..clip off puffer or blow tube..blow out dust.. take bolt out of bag place bolt in start of hold . unclip hammer tap in bolt ..unclip spanner and tighten bolt... clip quick draw.. Bye this happens one is quite often in a lot of pain... One then has to look ahead and judge where one thinks it will be possible to do the same ...its not easy ..it does not have to be 5.14..As you asked I have done about 200 of those explained above and two or three hundred with normal gear. Sorry for the lecture but you did ask ..and nothing else better to do today..its raining here in Cumbria. Check out mountainproject.com
In reply to Colza:
PS I see your favorite crag is Shepherds Crag .. I have done a few FA 's on sights there as well but just using slings and the odd peg for pro... Have a nice day..
PS I see your favorite crag is Shepherds Crag .. I have done a few FA 's on sights there as well but just using slings and the odd peg for pro... Have a nice day..
In reply to AlanLittle:
The Bachar-Verian was put up with a hand drill where you need two hand.. So Bacher would have to climb to where he could either hook or stand with both hands free.. That's most likely why the bolts are quite far apart..you cannot hand drill just anywhere. Obviously you cannot drill even with a battery drill in the middle of a 9a move or perhaps even just below it .... That is why most sport routes are single pitch climbs with bolts every 5 feet or so...its easy as you can bolt from above.Its not very easy to do that on new on sight climbs lets say over a 1000' or more. Yes a friend of mine has put up climbs harder that the B/Y drilling from free stances..but perhaps not as long runouts ..as with the battery drill you can do it one handed with difficulty from free stances. Not everyone (but most it seems) in the world is doing indoor routes outside (sport routes)there are still a few climbers that enjoy some adventure in their climbing.I do not see many if any onsight climbing of these super physical sport routes as most if not all have white marked holds and preplaced quick draws to clip into above the "on sight" climber.. Go for it !
> How many hands-off stances would you expect on the average 9a then?
> If drilling on the lead on dodgy aid gear doesn't live up to your exacting standards, then you just wrote off the Bachar-Yerian. What's the hardest non-slab route that's ever been bolted free on the lead?
The Bachar-Verian was put up with a hand drill where you need two hand.. So Bacher would have to climb to where he could either hook or stand with both hands free.. That's most likely why the bolts are quite far apart..you cannot hand drill just anywhere. Obviously you cannot drill even with a battery drill in the middle of a 9a move or perhaps even just below it .... That is why most sport routes are single pitch climbs with bolts every 5 feet or so...its easy as you can bolt from above.Its not very easy to do that on new on sight climbs lets say over a 1000' or more. Yes a friend of mine has put up climbs harder that the B/Y drilling from free stances..but perhaps not as long runouts ..as with the battery drill you can do it one handed with difficulty from free stances. Not everyone (but most it seems) in the world is doing indoor routes outside (sport routes)there are still a few climbers that enjoy some adventure in their climbing.I do not see many if any onsight climbing of these super physical sport routes as most if not all have white marked holds and preplaced quick draws to clip into above the "on sight" climber.. Go for it !
In reply to UKC News:
I'm sure most would prefer that the bolter took their time to find the best place to bolt, in the best quality rock. Accurate drilling with the correct hole depth (I assume this makes a difference?) and then cleaning the hole before placing the bolt. Ensuring the bolt it correctly torqued, etc, etc. Probably hard to do a good job whilst hanging on and worrying about ground-up bolting ethics (wtf?).
I'm sure most would prefer that the bolter took their time to find the best place to bolt, in the best quality rock. Accurate drilling with the correct hole depth (I assume this makes a difference?) and then cleaning the hole before placing the bolt. Ensuring the bolt it correctly torqued, etc, etc. Probably hard to do a good job whilst hanging on and worrying about ground-up bolting ethics (wtf?).
1
In reply to USBRIT:
I completely agree that drilling on lead limits the gear possibilities compared to drilling on abseil, somewhat akin to how placing only pegs limits gear possibilities compared to using bolts, but my view is that if you're going to be drilling at all your first priority should be to ensure that the outcome of that inherently destructive process is a high quality placement usable by others.
I completely agree that drilling on lead limits the gear possibilities compared to drilling on abseil, somewhat akin to how placing only pegs limits gear possibilities compared to using bolts, but my view is that if you're going to be drilling at all your first priority should be to ensure that the outcome of that inherently destructive process is a high quality placement usable by others.
In reply to cha1n:
So what do you suggest .. Hanging a 1000 feet of rope or more down the crag so you can bolt from above ? There are big crags in the US ....its not Hubble we are talking about. How would you suggest you climb a FA of a sandstone tower from above that might need the odd bolt from a position where you cannot hook ? Drop on the top by parachute ?.
> I'm sure most would prefer that the bolter took their time to find the best place to bolt, in the best quality rock. Accurate drilling with the correct hole depth (I assume this makes a difference?) and then cleaning the hole before placing the bolt. Ensuring the bolt it correctly torqued, etc, etc. Probably hard to do a good job whilst hanging on and worrying about ground-up bolting ethics (wtf?).
So what do you suggest .. Hanging a 1000 feet of rope or more down the crag so you can bolt from above ? There are big crags in the US ....its not Hubble we are talking about. How would you suggest you climb a FA of a sandstone tower from above that might need the odd bolt from a position where you cannot hook ? Drop on the top by parachute ?.
In reply to john arran:
Well John. On the routes we did on sandstone we did not use any pegs just cams and stoppers. We sometimes aid bolted blank sections and if only hair line cracks available use a bolt instead of destroying the rock by bashing in birdhooks or thin blades etc. Many of the climbs we put up on sandstone are being repeated the only real complaint at times are that we did not put in enough bolts . Some of the sandstone is a bit soft and at times in desperation the bolt became what they call a spinner ...however we have tried to remove them with no success, and I am sure they would hold a slab fall ..they have.However the above is rare most climbers think the bolts we placed if too few are good. On easy slabs say up to about severe (5.5/6) we placed very few bolts . On more difficult terrain some times the bolts were spaced as once committed one did not find a place to stop and place a bolt or what ever.. quite scary but i like that type of climbing... its sort of 1950's style on sight.
> I completely agree that drilling on lead limits the gear possibilities compared to drilling on abseil, somewhat akin to how placing only pegs limits gear possibilities compared to using bolts, but my view is that if you're going to be drilling at all your first priority should be to ensure that the outcome of that inherently destructive process is a high quality placement usable by others.
Well John. On the routes we did on sandstone we did not use any pegs just cams and stoppers. We sometimes aid bolted blank sections and if only hair line cracks available use a bolt instead of destroying the rock by bashing in birdhooks or thin blades etc. Many of the climbs we put up on sandstone are being repeated the only real complaint at times are that we did not put in enough bolts . Some of the sandstone is a bit soft and at times in desperation the bolt became what they call a spinner ...however we have tried to remove them with no success, and I am sure they would hold a slab fall ..they have.However the above is rare most climbers think the bolts we placed if too few are good. On easy slabs say up to about severe (5.5/6) we placed very few bolts . On more difficult terrain some times the bolts were spaced as once committed one did not find a place to stop and place a bolt or what ever.. quite scary but i like that type of climbing... its sort of 1950's style on sight.
In reply to john arran:
Also I would like to point out at least in Utah and Colorado the first ascents give the repeat climbers a list of what gear they will need on the climb . Cams /stoppers sizes and where the bolts are. So repeat climbers on the towers slabs and faces do not have to like the FA party lug drills, bolts.hammers, many sizes of cams nuts etc etc..just what they will need ..so they travel much lighter than on the first ascent party.They should have a much easier time than the FA party if they are up to that particle climb.Climbers used to a lot of sport climbing are often not comfortable on these types of routes...cannot blame them really!
> I completely agree that drilling on lead limits the gear possibilities compared to drilling on abseil, somewhat akin to how placing only pegs limits gear possibilities compared to using bolts, but my view is that if you're going to be drilling at all your first priority should be to ensure that the outcome of that inherently destructive process is a high quality placement usable by others.
Also I would like to point out at least in Utah and Colorado the first ascents give the repeat climbers a list of what gear they will need on the climb . Cams /stoppers sizes and where the bolts are. So repeat climbers on the towers slabs and faces do not have to like the FA party lug drills, bolts.hammers, many sizes of cams nuts etc etc..just what they will need ..so they travel much lighter than on the first ascent party.They should have a much easier time than the FA party if they are up to that particle climb.Climbers used to a lot of sport climbing are often not comfortable on these types of routes...cannot blame them really!
In reply to USBRIT:
So you're advocating removing much of the adventure of repeat ascents by knowing precisely what gear will be needed? Sounds a little contrary to some of your other posts. But at least it shows you appreciate that not everybody always wants the same experience from climbing.
For me, I can't think of anything better than first ascent adventure tradding in a remote area (by my definition that's without any bolts for pro, howsoever placed), nor anything worse than finding a line of bolts in an equally remote area, but currently I'm equipping a new sport crag close to home and I'm making damn sure the bolts will be good and in the best places by drilling them on abseil. Repeat ascentionists will need to rise to the challenge nature posed in leaving holds, but I will decline to impose on others any additional challenge by sparse bolting.
> Also I would like to point out at least in Utah and Colorado the first ascents give the repeat climbers a list of what gear they will need on the climb .
So you're advocating removing much of the adventure of repeat ascents by knowing precisely what gear will be needed? Sounds a little contrary to some of your other posts. But at least it shows you appreciate that not everybody always wants the same experience from climbing.
For me, I can't think of anything better than first ascent adventure tradding in a remote area (by my definition that's without any bolts for pro, howsoever placed), nor anything worse than finding a line of bolts in an equally remote area, but currently I'm equipping a new sport crag close to home and I'm making damn sure the bolts will be good and in the best places by drilling them on abseil. Repeat ascentionists will need to rise to the challenge nature posed in leaving holds, but I will decline to impose on others any additional challenge by sparse bolting.
In reply to USBRIT:
I've enjoyed your explanations of the different styles of bolting in the US as I was quite unaware of them tbh, so thanks for that. I fear however we've become diverted from the OP and Ondra's achievements.
Can you expand more on your point 3.
Are all these routes slabs? I don't really see how you could single-handedly equip a route that was vertical or overhanging at any sort of 'hard' grade. When you say 'a much higher grade' how high are we talking? Remember that Ondra appears to have been covertly criticised for not bolting on lead a route which is 5:14d.
FWIW, in this video:
youtube.com/watch?v=3YRogD22LuE&
...the climber states early on he thought Bachar "put some of the bolts in on hooks". Do you know if there's a definitive account somewhere of exactly how the route was bolted?
EDIT: found this thread on supertopo - it'll be a long read but the answer should be in it somewhere.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=375380
I've enjoyed your explanations of the different styles of bolting in the US as I was quite unaware of them tbh, so thanks for that. I fear however we've become diverted from the OP and Ondra's achievements.
Can you expand more on your point 3.
> 3) It is many times very difficult to bolt on lead in the middle of for example a reasonable difficult pitch as you might be on one foothold of sorts and one hand hold,lets say in the middle of a 5c move ( I admit I have not gone much higher than that as I am old). Friends I climbed with in the US managed to hang about on a much higher grade.
Are all these routes slabs? I don't really see how you could single-handedly equip a route that was vertical or overhanging at any sort of 'hard' grade. When you say 'a much higher grade' how high are we talking? Remember that Ondra appears to have been covertly criticised for not bolting on lead a route which is 5:14d.
FWIW, in this video:
youtube.com/watch?v=3YRogD22LuE&
...the climber states early on he thought Bachar "put some of the bolts in on hooks". Do you know if there's a definitive account somewhere of exactly how the route was bolted?
EDIT: found this thread on supertopo - it'll be a long read but the answer should be in it somewhere.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=375380
Post edited at 18:39
In reply to john arran:
Well some of the climbs we did if we did not put in some bolts you would have no pro at all....and I am not really that brave. Doing gear lists on FA descriptions more so on towers is common practice and on the bigger climbs in Utah ( some of ours were up to 2000') and as you well know in Yosemite etc ..its not my idea. I can assure you that even with the knowledge of what stuff to take on a repeat ascents on some of the routes the 6a climber can get quite an experience on a lowly VS ..They wish as you say there was a line of bolts not just one on a 200' 5.6 pitch.What aid we did is all clean aid .. no pegs .birdbeeks , hammers . So we had some great whippers with cams coming out of the softer cracks . You just cannot top rope towers .. I know I do need to tell you John .. I followed some of your exploits. Cheers
> So you're advocating removing much of the adventure of repeat ascents by knowing precisely what gear will be needed? Sounds a little contrary to some of your other posts. But at least it shows you appreciate that not everybody always wants the same experience from climbing.
> For me, I can't think of anything better than first ascent adventure tradding in a remote area (by my definition that's without any bolts for pro, howsoever placed), nor anything worse than finding a line of bolts in an equally remote area, but currently I'm equipping a new sport crag close to home and I'm making damn sure the bolts will be good and in the best places by drilling them on abseil. Repeat ascentionists will need to rise to the challenge nature posed in leaving holds, but I will decline to impose on others any additional challenge by sparse bolting.
Well some of the climbs we did if we did not put in some bolts you would have no pro at all....and I am not really that brave. Doing gear lists on FA descriptions more so on towers is common practice and on the bigger climbs in Utah ( some of ours were up to 2000') and as you well know in Yosemite etc ..its not my idea. I can assure you that even with the knowledge of what stuff to take on a repeat ascents on some of the routes the 6a climber can get quite an experience on a lowly VS ..They wish as you say there was a line of bolts not just one on a 200' 5.6 pitch.What aid we did is all clean aid .. no pegs .birdbeeks , hammers . So we had some great whippers with cams coming out of the softer cracks . You just cannot top rope towers .. I know I do need to tell you John .. I followed some of your exploits. Cheers
In reply to Colza:
Thanks . I always have climb for fun.. and consequently at times get some negative responses from people who take climbing far far too seriously . Most of the climbs we did in the Utah deserts are quite different to the run of the mill climbs sport or trad. . Most not just the towers you could not walk off you had to abseil back down thus leaving two bolts at every belay station for the descent. A power drill was essential but was a pain to lug up there on your back,and it was a bit bigger than that dinky toy that AO was using .These climbs were often over a 1000' so a battery had to be capable of at least 40+ drill holes.(sandstone) ... not a lot for the length of the climbs ..hence at times long runouts but usually some pro near the harder sections.The best bit was getting down for cocktail hour a big bonfire good friends and in a area where there was no people.... and very rarely other climbers . Brilliant. Before I forget what this forum post is about... I agree Adam seems like he is very fit young lad.
> Your funny !
Thanks . I always have climb for fun.. and consequently at times get some negative responses from people who take climbing far far too seriously . Most of the climbs we did in the Utah deserts are quite different to the run of the mill climbs sport or trad. . Most not just the towers you could not walk off you had to abseil back down thus leaving two bolts at every belay station for the descent. A power drill was essential but was a pain to lug up there on your back,and it was a bit bigger than that dinky toy that AO was using .These climbs were often over a 1000' so a battery had to be capable of at least 40+ drill holes.(sandstone) ... not a lot for the length of the climbs ..hence at times long runouts but usually some pro near the harder sections.The best bit was getting down for cocktail hour a big bonfire good friends and in a area where there was no people.... and very rarely other climbers . Brilliant. Before I forget what this forum post is about... I agree Adam seems like he is very fit young lad.
In reply to USBRIT:
What, no BASE jump to finish off the grand day out?!
But seriously, any idea what the hardest routes your pals have free-bolted in the past? I'm curious to know what one can achieve drilling by hand, on lead, without any sky-hooks etc.
What, no BASE jump to finish off the grand day out?!
But seriously, any idea what the hardest routes your pals have free-bolted in the past? I'm curious to know what one can achieve drilling by hand, on lead, without any sky-hooks etc.
In reply to Fraser:
One of my friends is Lance Bateman from Salt Lake City that I sometimes followed on a FA of a sand stone wall ,, Best I could translate the grade I think would be around E5 6c . He free bolted this from free stances with a power drill in places that I had trouble just hanging on .As one example ..go to mountainproject.com and in search up right put in Innominate. Click on the Innominate with a (FA) next to it .. You will see some pics. and the route .. He has done a lot like this. To hand drill you have to find a stance where you can use both hands
One of my friends is Lance Bateman from Salt Lake City that I sometimes followed on a FA of a sand stone wall ,, Best I could translate the grade I think would be around E5 6c . He free bolted this from free stances with a power drill in places that I had trouble just hanging on .As one example ..go to mountainproject.com and in search up right put in Innominate. Click on the Innominate with a (FA) next to it .. You will see some pics. and the route .. He has done a lot like this. To hand drill you have to find a stance where you can use both hands
In reply to USBRIT:
Good photos, it looks a cracking route. I can barely imagine the additional weight of bolts, hangers, drilling gear etc required when setting off on an unknown route of such a length! Question: does the FA get listed / claimed irrespective of whether or not it was done cleanly? I note that the FA is dated as 17th Oct. 2010, but the notes further down the first page states the guys returned and it was led without falls on 6th November. I was just wondering if the FA is therefore attributed to whoever got to the top first, regardless of style?
Good photos, it looks a cracking route. I can barely imagine the additional weight of bolts, hangers, drilling gear etc required when setting off on an unknown route of such a length! Question: does the FA get listed / claimed irrespective of whether or not it was done cleanly? I note that the FA is dated as 17th Oct. 2010, but the notes further down the first page states the guys returned and it was led without falls on 6th November. I was just wondering if the FA is therefore attributed to whoever got to the top first, regardless of style?
In reply to UKC News:
wow this thread is painful
some people like headpointing, top roping, adventurous trad climbing, soloing, bouldering or alpine climbing
Why does it upset you so much? If you like onsight hand bolting, great! if someone else doesn't, why complain???
Like you said, 50's ethics, its now 2014 & Adam Ondra is pushing the limits just as Brown was in the 50's or Bachar was in the 80s
wow this thread is painful
some people like headpointing, top roping, adventurous trad climbing, soloing, bouldering or alpine climbing
Why does it upset you so much? If you like onsight hand bolting, great! if someone else doesn't, why complain???
Like you said, 50's ethics, its now 2014 & Adam Ondra is pushing the limits just as Brown was in the 50's or Bachar was in the 80s
In reply to ashtond6:
Who is upset?... Just filling in time when its raining... However I do not think you can compare Ondra with Brown or Bacher ...pretty much two different sports. Maybe you take climbing a bit too serious. Did you get off route on Super Crack ?
> wow this thread is painful
> some people like headpointing, top roping, adventurous trad climbing, soloing, bouldering or alpine climbing
> Why does it upset you so much? If you like onsight hand bolting, great! if someone else doesn't, why complain???
> Like you said, 50's ethics, its now 2014 & Adam Ondra is pushing the limits just as Brown was in the 50's or Bachar was in the 80s
Who is upset?... Just filling in time when its raining... However I do not think you can compare Ondra with Brown or Bacher ...pretty much two different sports. Maybe you take climbing a bit too serious. Did you get off route on Super Crack ?
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