UKC

New sky race along the aonach eagach ridge..

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 Banned User 77 31 Dec 2014
New sky race around the extended glance skyline..

cracking race, but wow that's serious terrain...

for the climbers/runners it will be an awesome experience though. I'd certainly do it if I was in the UK..

http://skyrunninguk.com/2014/12/31/new-race-for-2015-glencoe-skyline/
 steelbru 31 Dec 2014
In reply to IainRUK:
I saw that, bit unsure about the suitability of Curved Ridge and Aonach Eagach for "racing", especially if it's wet rock which is a fair chance.

For regular scramblers then not an issue, but there's plenty hillrunners who don't scramble.

Hope they have a safe race
In reply to steelbru:

I'd missed the curve ridge bit.. wow..

The AE would be concerning enough..

I'd be concerned about including grade 1 scrambles.. grade 2/3 is really pushing it for a race..
 AdrianC 31 Dec 2014
In reply to IainRUK:

Maybe I'm getting old but the words "asking for trouble" popped into my mind when I read that. Experienced scrambler or not, there are plenty of places on that provisional course where you simply need to take your time. Creating a situation where there's pressure to cross unforgiving terrain as fast as possible seems like a bad idea to me.
 mountainbagger 31 Dec 2014
In reply to IainRUK:

Yes, fine as an objective for individuals (I'd really enjoy a day out like that) but I'd worry about racing conditions and people making mistakes, especially around other racers.

Having said that, aren't some of the sky races in Europe quite technical? I genuinely don't know.
 mountainbagger 31 Dec 2014
In reply to AdrianC:

Beat me to it!
 petestack 31 Dec 2014
In reply to IainRUK:
Already commented three times about this on a couple of Facebook walls, so just quoting myself here...

'Don't think I like this... Curved Ridge and the Aonach Eagach as fast-moving/speed solos, yes, but organised racing, no!'

'Take, by comparison, the Celtman triathlon, which visits the Spidean Coire nan Clach trig point and Ruadh-stac Mor summit of Beinn Eighe but avoids the short section of awkward ridge to the true top of Spidean Coire nan Clach... now that's more sensible!'

'It's just all wrong! Not just how do you marshal and/or safeguard it, but how does it impact on other recreational users? What if folks want to go climbing on Rannoch Wall and descend by Curved Ridge when there's a 'race' coming up? Or just climb the ridge? Likewise how do you clear the Aonach Eagach to give all competitors (and unsuspecting public) an equal chance? Do they get staggered slots over the graded terrain or just elbow each other out of the way? And what next... the Cuillin Ridge race? It's a completely different game from Fin or me or you taking on these things ourselves and reporting to SHR!'

That said, if you're going to run the Aonach Eagach (which I've done a number of times), west-to-east is probably the better way. But again not for organised racing when you're going to have the flow of other hill goers coming towards you.
Post edited at 13:25
In reply to mountainbagger:

No, not that I know of..

Some are very technical but they have via ferrata..

Nothing like this..

I'm unsure.. I don't like coming out against a race and this is one I'd love to do but do have concerns which Pete lists basically..
 richprideaux 31 Dec 2014
In reply to IainRUK:

I share the concerns stated above... I've been on both sides of the 'organised race' line as competitor and organiser/safety officer and I wouldn't touch this with a bargepole... I left an events organising company earlier this year because of my concerns about their cutting back on safety requirements for budget reasons on a Snowdon-based event.
 alasdair19 01 Jan 2015
In reply to richprideaux:

this is crackers. I struggle to believe that anyone is prepared to insure it.

Anyone in Glencoe mrt want to comment?

Are the National Trust daft enough to let this happen.
 steelbru 01 Jan 2015
In reply to IainRUK:

Safety concerns aside, the event name is a bit misleading is it not ? Surely the Glencoe Skyline would have to include the wee buachaille as well
In reply to alasdair19:

Insurance is easy.. That insurance paying out after an inquest is very different...
 richprideaux 01 Jan 2015
In reply to IainRUK:

> Insurance is easy.. That insurance paying out after an inquest is very different...

Spot on.
 wbo 01 Jan 2015
In reply to IainRUK: do you need to qualify for this?

In reply to wbo:

No, normally sky races have no formal entry requirements, longer AL fell races often do but this is a huge step up..
 wbo 01 Jan 2015
In reply to IainRUK:
It is a big step. I could see it as an alternative 'elite' race but it won't be much of a race for the majority as it's technically too hard, more of a survival/completion experience
 Simon Caldwell 02 Jan 2015
In reply to IainRUK:

It's being organised by Shane Ohly, who I think has done a bit of climbing in his time so will appreciate the issues.
I'm sure that the concerns will all be addressed. I queried how they'd cope with other mountain users - what happens if a slow team is pitching the whole of Curved Ridge at the time, or there's a large group of nervous scramblers coming the other way over Aonach Eagach - and the reply was that they already had (unspecified) plans for this.
They already do a lot of vetting for their other big races - around 50% of applicants for this year's Dragons Back were turned away I think.

I'd love to do it, but unless the time limit is 24 hours I'm not fit enough!
 petestack 02 Jan 2015
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

> It's being organised by Shane Ohly

Think most of us had probably noticed, but that doesn't make it automatically OK...

> I'm sure that the concerns will all be addressed. I queried how they'd cope with other mountain users - what happens if a slow team is pitching the whole of Curved Ridge at the time, or there's a large group of nervous scramblers coming the other way over Aonach Eagach - and the reply was that they already had (unspecified) plans for this.

Since he's a UKC member and competitor safety and impact on others on these sections appear to be the common areas of concern expressed in a discussion so far missing his voice, perhaps he might like to say something here?

> I'd love to do it, but unless the time limit is 24 hours I'm not fit enough!

I'd bet you could do it in half of that!

 Simon Caldwell 02 Jan 2015
In reply to petestack:

Stop tempting me!
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
He has... There was a comment on FB from a runner who hoped his ultra running would see him ok...
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
Not against this race but I do think the advert should have been more cautious of the experience needed... This is a MASSIVE step up from any UK race.. Up to now even including CG was considered controversial...
Surprised as this is a commercial venture which is very specific..
 2ba 02 Jan 2015
In reply to IainRUK:

Hill racing takes many forms and people are doing some amazing things over impressive terrain. Scotland has loads of potential beyond the current races but like everyone points out, there are a risks and issues. Some of the general points raised can be countered:
1. Capability: >38km and over 4500m ascent will be for a relative few people. Throw in a bit of climbing and scrambling, rocky descents and brutal ascents - all will reduce the field even more by self selection. If the weather is poor it is a bogey and more might withdraw on the day (if not cancelled).
2. Space: There is a lot of space in the hills. There may be one or two pinch points where other hill users could be an issue, but most can be by-passed. A bit of information on boards at the car parks plus stuff on the web etc can alert hill users that a race is on the ridges.
3. Safety: Big issue, but there are set conditions for hills race organisers which I would expect Shane to follow to enable insurance for the race among other things needed to do this. I would expect lots of running clubs to put up marshals in the same way as the Ben race/Glencoe marathon etc. The local MRTs will support if needed.

Better to have some inspiring challenges in the diary than be a couch potato and armchair critic. Having done the route as a walk, I'd love to race it, but back to Forrest Gump for now.....
In reply to 2ba:
Which is why its strange.. commercial venture so why make it so restrictive that very few could race it. Especially with curved ridge which is easily avoidable..

TBH I'd know few who could tackle curved ridge, unguided, uproped.. throw in racing..

I'd love to go for the race tbh.. but is it viable? I dont know..

I disagree most can be bypassed.. not on th AE... I've only done it 5 or 6 times but from what I have seen it can be pretty busy on a warm day and also less secure than Crib goch, likewise lots of insecure material on the sections where you want to by pass.. the most scared I've been on it was doing a pretty poor line off Am bodach? avoiding the crowds on the chimney... you can suddenly find yourself in the shit.

Re set conditions for hill races? Go on which? As I said this is a totally unique race.. which is no bad thing but it needs setting out just how unique this is, blind trust in an RO, no matter how competent or experienced isnt enough..

WFRA guidelines...
"finding and to guide, where practical, participants away from rock crags, steep slopes, limestone
outcrops, shake holes, open potholes in the vicinity of the route"

The FRA used to mention that a route should not be able to be cut short by taking steep terrain.

Lets not forget a few of the DB competitors had issues over the inclusion of the full 3000ers.. there are people on the FB threads who clearly lack the experience.. asking for recces? bloody hell if you need to get shown how to do these routes you should not be on them..

On the last welsh sky race people struggled with the marking, no huge issue on the carneddau.. but on this route??

re impressive things.. totally agree.. but maybe they should be FKT's.. but even if not, at least set out from the off just how serous this race is... it is a massive step up from any UK race on the scene.. no bad thing.. TBH I'd release a video of the course ASAP to show people the dangers involved.
Post edited at 23:02
In reply to 2ba:

Should also add the various FB threads/UKC threads (strangely no FRA thread) will just help promote this... add to the whole aura of the race..

I always regretted not doing the DB and tbh I dont think I could not race this one if back... but I would recce it.. It has Fin written all over it though, Es may head back for it... I'll work on another I think would love it and breeze it... for the climber/runner this route doesnt hold any huge issues, its the trail runner which it could literally kill.
 thommi 03 Jan 2015
In reply to IainRUK:

Looks like a fantastic proposition though. guess we'll have to wait and see regarding entry criteria/fixed gear/format. Do you know anyone who's received an invite as yet? And you're right, Es would p**s it. :-D
 2ba 03 Jan 2015
In reply to thommi:

I know only what is on the advert. The entry criteria will be interesting - how it is framed, how it is priced, and how the 'limited' race applicants will 'selected. I would expect an international field. A mountaineering background will benefit runners. Road Marathon runners, pure trail runners and anyone not happy rock climbing and steep ground would probably find this route not for them. However, there are quite a few highly capable of running this quite safely and well able to nip around any parties on the route. Of course, this is a potentially risky thing to do and there are inherent dangers due to loose and slippery rock. But that is the nature of such a race route - which is still provisional!
Removed User 03 Jan 2015
In reply to petestack:

> 'Don't think I like this... Curved Ridge and the Aonach Eagach as fast-moving/speed solos, yes, but organised racing, no!'

> 'It's just all wrong! Not just how do you marshal and/or safeguard it, but how does it impact on other recreational users? What if folks want to go climbing on Rannoch Wall and descend by Curved Ridge when there's a 'race' coming up? Or just climb the ridge? Likewise how do you clear the Aonach Eagach to give all competitors (and unsuspecting public) an equal chance? Do they get staggered slots over the graded terrain or just elbow each other out of the way? And what next... the Cuillin Ridge race? It's a completely different game from Fin or me or you taking on these things ourselves and reporting to SHR!'

All this.
In reply to 2ba:

"A mountaineering background will benefit runners. Road Marathon runners, pure trail runners and anyone not happy rock climbing and steep ground would probably find this route not for them. "

My issue is, say someone lies enough or someone makes an error vetting.. do they find it 'not for them'.. or do they find themselves on some horrific off route terrain and die?

In bad weather you can easily be in shit terrain on curved ridge..

Saying that in bad weather AE can be a breeze.. I've done it in total clag and almost ran it.. in full sun I could see what a slip meant...
 parkovski 05 Jan 2015
In reply to IainRUK:

Congestion on the AE can easily be sidestepped by a late start time. When I did a glencoe round on a bank holiday a few years ago I was on the ridge at around 6pm. It was deserted and bathed in golden sunshine. Not convinced about curved ridge though - I expect they will scrap that.
 Simon Caldwell 06 Jan 2015
In reply to parkovski:

Maybe they could start the race at 6pm, so Curved Ridge would be reached after everyone else had gone home, and AE would be reached before everyone else returned...
 tony 06 Jan 2015
In reply to IainRUK:

Of all the circular routes you could choose to do in Scotland of the right kind of distance and ascent/descent, this is quite a long way down the list, for all the reasons that you and other people have given. It's a really inappropriate venue for such an event, and the very restrictive nature of the course is going to diminish its value as a race. If you want a beast of a race, there are much better options further north.

I'll admit to being biased, as a friend of mine died when running the AE ridge last year, but I think even without that background, I'd still think it was a poor idea.
 JohnnyW 06 Jan 2015
In reply to IainRUK:

As a non-runner, I sort of feel my comments are maybe uninformed, but as a walker/scrambler/climber, I am afraid I agree with all of the negative comments above.
 Carolyn 06 Jan 2015
In reply to IainRUK:

> My issue is, say someone lies enough or someone makes an error vetting.. do they find it 'not for them'.. or do they find themselves on some horrific off route terrain and die?

That'd be my concern - you could certainly hold a great "elite" event along that route, and I can easily think of half a dozen or so people with the skills, fitness & judgement to put in a good performance (though I suspect only half of them would actually pay to enter an organised event!). But as organisers, how on earth do you make the judgement as to who's up to it if you've not seen them on the hill? I've known of a few events where it's become clear that participants don't really have the skills to cope with what they've entered - but this one, the stakes are rather higher than most.
In reply to Carolyn:

Agreed. As an organized quite large scale event (of inevitably mixed levels of competence) it's daft. As a commercial jamboree, it's gross. Rather surprised Shane is organizing this.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Where there is money, there's a way...

And having worked on the inside of a few of these events (not specifically this company) , the money isn't insignificant. Well it couldn't be if he's advertising for full time marketing staff.
Post edited at 17:49
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):
Thats what I dont understand.. where from, for this event?

TV? are people filming it?

News stories?

The old make a loss here to build the name...

Maybe the race will be entirely safe of 20-30 well vetted well known people... I've already got a few interested. But as said, most wont pay to enter, they are sponsored.. I dont pay for around half of my main races, especially over ultra's.. the elite field often doesnt.

It is a great race, but as Tony says not a great route tbh, its not a logical skyline from that point in my opinion.

Why not do the Tranter round.... but avoid the out and backs... which is the severe scrambling... thats very easy grade one terrain, including the ben. The greatest natural horse shoe out there that I've seen.. perfect serious running terrain yet manageable.
Post edited at 23:21
In reply to IainRUK:

> Thats what I dont understand.. where from, for this event?

> TV? are people filming it?

> News stories?

> The old make a loss here to build the name...

> Maybe the race will be entirely safe of 20-30 well vetted well known people... I've already got a few interested. But as said, most wont pay to enter, they are sponsored.. I dont pay for around half of my main races, especially over ultra's.. the elite field often doesnt.

This isn't the only race in the company's portfolio so maybe it is a loss leader, who knows. Probably not though. Once you've got the sponsorship sorted (prizes) what's left to pay for? Some access perhaps, staff for the set up.

I've no doubt there's a massive amount of work to be done but it's pretty much all about an individual or very small team doing the leg work. And then you get adverts such as the Spine Race asking for ML's to marshal - for what? Expenses? (And last minute too - scary).

It's why it baffles me that people enter these races. The elite will be doing it for sponsorship obligations which is all well and good, but is just self fulfilling prophecy for the manufacturers (again no issue there). The rest of the 95% of entrants will be doing it for the tick or cachet (the bandwagon that is now the BG being a prime example).

This for me can be the only explanation of why these high profile large events are so popular. And since all you're doing is racing yourself against the clock why not have a real challenge and set off, on your own, and do it. That said I do think there is a real skill with the trial/orienteering type events like the score mountain marathons.

I'm sure no one is going to become a millionaire doing this (unless you're the Tough Guy or Tough Mudder owners) but they're not doing it for fun or for free. No problem with that but when the message is so often "please support this event we're putting on for the running community" it leaves a mixed taste.

Good luck with it though, certainly ambitious.

In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

The spine don't pay their safety team it seems..

It's a commercial event reliant on volunteers.. Basically work for me for free whilst I make money...
 richprideaux 07 Jan 2015
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

Depending on how much infrastructure they are going to put in place, the direct event costs could include:

- Timing Systems/Equipment
- Entry/registration system costs
- Safety Teams (Medics etc as well as marshals)
- Athlete entry costs (Tshirts, Medals/Mugs, food etc)
- Signage
- Land-use costs (You normally have to pay somebody somewhere)
- Recce costs

Then there are the usual costs of the business, website, advertising, etc. There is money to be made in the events world, but generally not through races of this type.

This race cannot be a commercial winner (unless there is something going on unheard of in these kind of events) and the interest will be high.

As I said higher up in the thread, I wouldn't go near this race as an organiser or safety partner. The route is more technically challenging than any other race of its type (including the DB), and the specific risks would only be clear to those who are competent enough to complete that section. No matter how good the vetting process is (another barrier to commercial success?) there will still be people on the start line who are not fully aware of what lies in front of them.

'Marshals' wouldn't be sufficient in providing safety cover for this kind of event either. You would need paid, professionals with higher medical/first aid training and equipped with radios etc. With anything less you will not only find your insurer not paying out but potentially a criminal prosecution for the Race and Safety Directors. Signing a waiver before you run wouldn't cover it, as you could reasonably expect a race of this type to have a safety and support structure appropriate to the terrain etc.

As Ultras and more 'extreme' trail races become popular in the UK more event organisers are putting them on - but without any clue as to the specific risks that they will come across, or what they need to put in place to mitigate those risks. Having a 20-stone first aider with a medical bum bag is often the medical provision on surprisingly tough races, with 'call Mountain Rescue' being the first call for incidents away from control. One race organiser we worked with refused to believe that the local MRT wouldn't turn up and sit on standby because their own event was a charity-fundrasier - they expected the MRT to support them because of that fact alone.

The race is a weird one, and I will be interested to see where it goes.
 Simon Caldwell 07 Jan 2015
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

The price hasn't been announced yet but I doubt it'll be high. And I'm sure the vetting will be thorough.
I've no idea how much money they make out of their events, but I don't think they'll be able to retire on it. I've done several, and their fees are very much at the bottom end of the commercial sector (some of them are lower than "non-commercial" events like the OMM).

I'm still tempted to enter, but also tempted to do the route on my own, since it's circular so an organised event won;pt add much in terms of logistics.
In reply to richprideaux:

> Depending on how much infrastructure they are going to put in place, the direct event costs could include:

> - Timing Systems/Equipment

> - Entry/registration system costs

> - Safety Teams (Medics etc as well as marshals)

> - Athlete entry costs (Tshirts, Medals/Mugs, food etc)

> - Signage

> - Land-use costs (You normally have to pay somebody somewhere)

> - Recce costs

> Then there are the usual costs of the business, website, advertising, etc. There is money to be made in the events world, but generally not through races of this type.

Maybe, maybe not. But the organiser has other races in their portfolio so things like chip costs will be spread out (assuming they have their own stock). This would go for entry systems - I suspect it'll be farmed out to SportIdent.


> This race cannot be a commercial winner (unless there is something going on unheard of in these kind of events) and the interest will be high.


> 'Marshals' wouldn't be sufficient in providing safety cover for this kind of event either. You would need paid, professionals with higher medical/first aid training and equipped with radios etc. With anything less you will not only find your insurer not paying out but potentially a criminal prosecution for the Race and Safety Directors. Signing a waiver before you run wouldn't cover it, as you could reasonably expect a race of this type to have a safety and support structure appropriate to the terrain etc.

You'd think so but it's not always the case I suspect. I'm constantly asked to help out on these type of events, being in the game so to speak - but I'm not doing it for free as is often asked of me. They must be doing something to make some money for them to be advertising a full time marketing person at £16-18k, so they are making fair money.


> The race is a weird one, and I will be interested to see where it goes.

Round some hills? Not my bag but good luck if it is.

 Simon Caldwell 07 Jan 2015
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

> They must be doing something to make some money

Uninformed guess - maybe they do "team building" type events for the corporate world?
 Doghouse 07 Jan 2015
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

>

> I'm sure no one is going to become a millionaire doing this (unless you're the Tough Guy or Tough Mudder owners) but they're not doing it for fun or for free. No problem with that but when the message is so often "please support this event we're putting on for the running community" it leaves a mixed taste.

>

This really grates for me . . commercial organisations expecting people to volunteer their time for free.
Ferret 07 Jan 2015
In reply to Doghouse:

> This really grates for me . . commercial organisations expecting people to volunteer their time for free.

Yeh - kind of agree.... but many events would be way more expensive if people didn't volunteer and so long as nobody is making their millions being a race director (I kind of doubt it) whilst others work for free its not that huge an issue. Many of the races using volunteer marshals offer some kind of incentive such as free/reduced cost or priority applications to a subsequent event so there is something in it for marshals... and many marshals and helpers genuinely want to help people have a great race, rather than a poor and under supported or overly expensive one, or are there as part of 'supporting' their own running friends and family as well as, very kindly every other Tom Dick & Harry who comes past which is pretty commendable and why I always try to muster a smile, thanks or wave and a good dose of respect for those who help out. Standing in the cold, wind or rain for hours on end? Up all day and night without the glory and adrenaline of the event? pretty tough going.
 SteveM 07 Jan 2015
In reply to Ferret:

> It's a commercial event reliant on volunteers.. Basically work for me for free whilst I make money...

Indeed, the owners (venture capital investors) of World Triathlon Corporation effectively finance Ironman, a multi-100s-of-million-dollars race series with volunteer marshalls at all events. There are some paid safety marshalls and referees but most course-side marshalls are volunteers.
 ablackett 07 Jan 2015
In reply to IainRUK:

I'm going to stick my neck out here and say I think it's fantastic. It takes some doing to create something a bit different in the fell racing sector, but Shane looks like he has done it again. When he first did "Dark Mountains" I told him that I worried that not enough people in the country had the experience to do it safely, this has since become a sucessful event. The Dragons Back looks like it will sell out many times over this year, and it was generally regarded as too hard after day 1 last time.

It's going to be tough, but no more dangerous than "The Spine" race, and no tougher than a Bob Graham, both of which plenty of people have done.

I reckon it will be exciting to watch.
In reply to ablackett:

> I'm going to stick my neck out here and say I think it's fantastic. It takes some doing to create something a bit different in the fell racing sector, but Shane looks like he has done it again. When he first did "Dark Mountains" I told him that I worried that not enough people in the country had the experience to do it safely, this has since become a sucessful event. The Dragons Back looks like it will sell out many times over this year, and it was generally regarded as too hard after day 1 last time.

> It's going to be tough, but no more dangerous than "The Spine" race, and no tougher than a Bob Graham, both of which plenty of people have done.

> I reckon it will be exciting to watch.

I dont think the spine race is that dangerous.. and whilst the DB does have crib goch, that some people were unhappy about, it is objectiely much safer than the two ridge sections in this race.

I'm still unsure.. I've talked a few into it for this year so do want it to be a success but I do think vetting would have to be very serious and I dont think the early adverts have been open about just how serious this event is..

One woman on the fB advert said how she loved the look of the route after having done glencoe marathon..
 Simon Caldwell 07 Jan 2015
In reply to ablackett:

Also the completion rate of the first Dark Mountains (about 25%) shows that those who enter these things generally have the self-awareness to call it a day when necessary, rather than ploughing on regardless.
 Simon Caldwell 07 Jan 2015
In reply to IainRUK:

> I dont think the early adverts have been open about just how serious this event is

What adverts have there been? All I've seen is the skyrunning link, and associated discussions on FB and elsewhere.
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

When they can just turn back...
 wbo 07 Jan 2015
In reply to IainRUK: i'm going to look for myself but is this really that much scarier, more technical than the other international skyrunning races? To get a profile these things do need to be pretty spectacular, although if they're too scary it makes for a rubbish race/competition (note I do not say experience)

Is there any race in Britain that only has paid marshals? If you don't like paying there is always the option of club league cross country

In reply to wbo:

> Is there any race in Britain that only has paid marshals?

Probably not, but most races are organised by clubs who get the support from their members. This is goodwill at its finest and is the life blood of the sport.

When these large, sponsored and let's face it, not exactly cheap, races then play the "good will - please support this for the community" card without exactly being up front about who is making what, it feels a bit wrong.

But that's just me. I get that some people think differently.

 Simon Caldwell 07 Jan 2015
In reply to IainRUK:

True, but I can't see anyone starting this who couldn't reverse Curved Ridge at the start if needed (or at the very least sit tight on a ledge until the organisers help them down), and know enough about their ability to back off from before the pinnacles on AE. Anyone not up to it will either be weeded out by the organisers, or weed themselves out when they find out more about what's involved.

Personally I don't think the proposed route in August is as risky as an overnight event in the middle of January.
 wbo 07 Jan 2015
In reply to IainRUK:
I have had to marshal plenty of other clubs races as well...but I'm aware of how this works. I have to confess I was never very bothered if I was paying another club or a professional organizer to do a race - quality and the field is what counts
 petestack 07 Jan 2015
In reply to JohnnyW:

> As a non-runner, I sort of feel my comments are maybe uninformed, but as a walker/scrambler/climber, I am afraid I agree with all of the negative comments above.

As a walker/scrambler/climber, your views may well be more informed than most (including some potential entrants). But, to be quite clear about where mine come from...

I've lived locally for 25 years and run on these hills regularly.
I've soloed Curved Ridge up and down (as you'd expect most folk who climb on the Buachaille to have done) and run the Aonach Eagach in both directions multiple times.
I've done a complete Glen Coe Round in a respectable time.
I maintain the Scottish Hill Runners 'Long Distance Records' pages, which include the Glen Coe Round (for which my updated route and time were already featured before I took over the helm).

In reply to Carolyn:

> That'd be my concern - you could certainly hold a great "elite" event along that route, and I can easily think of half a dozen or so people with the skills, fitness & judgement to put in a good performance (though I suspect only half of them would actually pay to enter an organised event!).

Nothing necessarily 'elite' about it. I'm far from elite, but consider myself to have the skills, fitness & judgement to put in a good performance on that course. But won't be entering because (quite apart from not wanting to pit myself against the truly elite and get gubbed!) I remain firmly unconvinced of its suitability for an organised race. So of course I hope it all works out smoothly and safely if it goes ahead, but that doesn't mean I have to like it!
 ablackett 07 Jan 2015
In reply to IainRUK:

> I dont think the spine race is that dangerous.. and whilst the DB does have crib goch, that some people were unhappy about, it is objectiely much safer than the two ridge sections in this race.

I disagree, it depends on your experience and judgement. It's as easy to die of hypothermia in January if you screw up as it is to die by falling of curved ridge. I would trust myself to compete and survive this race, but I wouldn't trust my judgement 200 miles into the spine.

It doesn't matter which is more dangerous, it matters if people are aware of the risks and willing to take them as with any mountain activity.
In reply to wbo:

> i'm going to look for myself but is this really that much scarier, more technical than the other international skyrunning races? To get a profile these things do need to be pretty spectacular, although if they're too scary it makes for a rubbish race/competition (note I do not say experience)

> Is there any race in Britain that only has paid marshals? If you don't like paying there is always the option of club league cross country

Yes, from the ones I know.. much much worse.

Those with grade 2 terrain have chains and ropes..

There was a mention that the tromso route was similar to this but I dont know it, I can imagine it was having been there but I havent done the course.

A number of races now offer incentives to marshal, free race entry etc..

I dont think the spine is that dangerous.. it can be but you are regularly checked and have plenty of options to DNF..

I do really fancy it..
In reply to ablackett:

>

> It doesn't matter which is more dangerous, it matters if people are aware of the risks and willing to take them as with any mountain activity.

I agree with that, and I dont think many are...

We had a spate of deaths in european mountain running a few years back from runners not being aware of risks.. I think we can over trust runners to be aware and properly explaining, showing, the severity of the route is a must..

At the moment i dont think that has happened.

Someone asked on another FB thread will there be a recce? There's certainly people interested who have no idea of the severity of the route..
 Carolyn 07 Jan 2015
In reply to petestack:

> In reply to Carolyn:

> Nothing necessarily 'elite' about it. I'm far from elite, but consider myself to have the skills, fitness & judgement to put in a good performance on that course. But won't be entering because (quite apart from not wanting to pit myself against the truly elite and get gubbed!) I remain firmly unconvinced of its suitability for an organised race. So of course I hope it all works out smoothly and safely if it goes ahead, but that doesn't mean I have to like it!

That's kind of why I put elite in inverted commas - it's not necessarily the fastest runners who'd put in the best performance, I suspect - although there are some very fast people with the necessary experience.

I'll race you for last place, if you like? I reckon I can win.
 steveriley 08 Jan 2015
In reply to IainRUK:

Lots of interesting stuff around this. A lot of commercial races are starting to pay for marshalling in cash or kind. Like an entry to next year's event or something. But I think value is rising up the agenda for people that want to run afew ultras, rather than being on the Tuff Mudder, Ironman, Ultra tick-list as a one off.

I was talking to a mate about the Dragon's Back at the weekend and after competing he really *wants to* marshall the next, even though it'll cost him a week's holiday for some pretty full-on support task - they'll get their pound of flesh. They do offer a fairly decent payback in kit and credit at the company shop.

It's gobsmacking the amount of help people can offer to complete strangers for things like a BG, like bivvying out in the middle of nowhere just to offer a hot drink to a complete stranger at a low-point. That's as well as all the travelling and support legs where you might say people have a bit of self-interest in, if they're pondering a future attempt.

On sponsored and invited entries, on the road there's no expectation of free entries from the elite that'll make up the Top 10 of our half next week. Generally the most we do is squeeze in the fast folk manually after entries have closed.
 Simon Caldwell 08 Jan 2015
In reply to IainRUK:

> properly explaining, showing, the severity of the route is a must..
> At the moment i dont think that has happened.

No, it hasn't. The race hasn't been launched yet, all we've had is the teaser on the skyrunning site. Further details are promised for early next month.
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

It has been launched.. it has said it is BEM.. via curved ridge.. then the Bidean.. then W- E over the AE...

It has been quite specific over what it will include.

 Simon Caldwell 09 Jan 2015
In reply to IainRUK:

Where is this information? All I can find is what's on the skyrunning site, which is all provisional and promises full details in February.
 tony 09 Jan 2015
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

You're right that the route described on the skyrunning website is described as provisional, but it's hard to work out a non-contrived circuit of Glencoe which doesn't feature the AE ridge.
 Simon Caldwell 09 Jan 2015
In reply to tony:

I know - and if you did avoid AE you'd remove much of the attraction. I'd just been trying to point out that the reason there wasn't a lot of warnings about the seriousness of the route was most likely that it hasn't been launched yet. I'm expecting that when the website appears there will be plenty of warnings, photos, videos, etc.
 PATTISON Bill 09 Jan 2015
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

After fouling up the three peaks they have to look for new areas to destroy.Is no where sacred.
 Simon Caldwell 10 Jan 2015
In reply to PATTISON Bill:

I think you've got them mixed up with someone else!
 dmhigg 11 Jan 2015
In reply to IainRUK:

I suspect it has already been run as a race. It looks suspiciously like a foot stage from the AR world champs from a few years ago. The main difference is that this race has not started with the Rum cuillin traverse.

 steelbru 11 Jan 2015
In reply to dmhigg:

A bit of googling shoes that the Adventure Race in 2007 did indeed go up Curved Ridge. The organisers had fixed ropes and competitors were attached with ascenders, see from about 41:00 here http://c.vg/de/video/H576GxHUyBQ/Adventure-Racing-World-Championships-2007-...

I was assuming they wouldn't be fixing ropes for a Skyrunning race, but who knows.............
 alasdair19 13 Jan 2015
In reply to ablackett:

going to be tough, but no more dangerous than "The Spine" race, and no tougher than a Bob Graham, both of which plenty of people have done. 

you cannot be serious"

as far as mltuk remit is going from ml to mia level.
at how many. points on the spine race can you slip and be guarantee death or maiming?
 alasdair19 13 Jan 2015
In reply to alasdair19:

to be insurable you'll have to fix ropes. that's a professional job. And a big order.
 galpinos 01 Feb 2015
In reply to IainRUK:

Website now up and running:

http://www.glencoeskyline.com
mackfras 01 Feb 2015
The competors sign themselves up so not my problem. Nobody seems to be thinking of the walkers/scramblers who feel rushed to get out of the way and push too hard and slip...

Or have their day ruined having to say hi to a bunch of extra people. Weirdly, I wouldn't give a damn if a bunch of people did it independently, but as a commercial event it will inevitably reduce the amazing news of Glencoe considerably. It can do without hi-viz....

 Simon Caldwell 02 Feb 2015
In reply to mackfras:

> Nobody seems to be thinking of the walkers/scramblers who feel rushed to get out of the way and push too hard and slip

I thought of that and raised the question with the organisers. The reply was that they had plans to deal with it - but those plans haven't been outlined on their web site.
 MG 02 Feb 2015
In reply to mackfras:

I agree. It sounds like a recipe for disaster. Confident runner bounding up CR trying to catch the next guy, a bit of adrenalin. Timid, gripped scrambler doing their first big scramble in the way....
 malky_c 02 Feb 2015
In reply to galpinos:

Why is it illustrated with massive photos of Glen Nevis and Crib Goch?
 Stig 02 Feb 2015
In reply to MG:

You lot are being ridiculous. Runners will be very spaced out, 'running' smoothly and efficiently rather than at some frenetic pace that freaks out all these supposedly 'beginner' scramblers out on some of these well known fairly tricky ridges.

For a start you don't try to catch people on technical sections you keep smooth and catch people on flats or downs. I doubt if most people would even notice there was something going on.

This is the problem with the web - why can't people just keep their noses out and let other people get on with things!?
 Simon Caldwell 02 Feb 2015
In reply to Stig:

Curved Ridge is very close to the start so runners will not be spaced out at that point. I'm still not sure what happens if they get there and find a large group of novices pitching the whole thing...
 Roadrunner2 02 Feb 2015
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Curved ridge is now optional (again provisonally).. so I reckon very few will take that line. To be quicker you'd have to competent.. very competent.. however it is a sky race so it must be marked so presumably they'll need some sign saying so...

A good call. By the AER the race will be so spread out that shouldnt be a problem, especially for those actually racing, the bulk in this race will be there purely for the completion.

IainRUK (Banned)
 Roadrunner2 02 Feb 2015
In reply to Stig:
> You lot are being ridiculous. Runners will be very spaced out, 'running' smoothly and efficiently rather than at some frenetic pace that freaks out all these supposedly 'beginner' scramblers out on some of these well known fairly tricky ridges.

> For a start you don't try to catch people on technical sections you keep smooth and catch people on flats or downs. I doubt if most people would even notice there was something going on.

This is the problem with the web, people speak bollox...

Of course they do.. have you ever done a fell race, it's the pride of many fell runners, catching people on technical sections, normally downhills..

TBH I always grabbed huge time on very steep long rough ascents.. I won the Peris Horeshoe attacking on a long steep ascent,

This is a hill walk, there will be very few 'runners' on this course, most finishers will average around 3-4 mph, at Jura normally only 5-10% of the field run 15 minute miles and that includes 3 miles of road running.

Iain RUK(Banned)
Post edited at 12:41
 MG 02 Feb 2015
In reply to Stig:
> You lot are being ridiculous. Runners will be very spaced out, 'running' smoothly and efficiently rather than at some frenetic pace that freaks out all these supposedly 'beginner' scramblers out on some of these well known fairly tricky ridges.

How can you possibly know that? I don't believe for a moment that if say there was a roped party with a beginner on CR, or a nervous scrambler half way along the AE, runners would stand back and give them space for what might be 5 or more minutes while they sort themselves out.
Post edited at 12:32
 petestack 02 Feb 2015
In reply to Stig:

> You lot are being ridiculous.

Nope, there have been serious legitimate concerns aired here.

> This is the problem with the web - why can't people just keep their noses out and let other people get on with things!?

Because we have the right to express our views. And some of us at least have properly informed opinions on this one.

 2ba 06 Feb 2015
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

This set of postings is hilarious tosh mostly. Let me add to it as having previously defended the idea of this race idea I can't believe this whingefest is still going on a month later.

So in summary, Glencoe is such a tiny place that everyone will clearly be tripping over each other and causing chaos on the hills. The traffic jams that will occur over a 12hr race on such rough terrain will be terrible - preventing other walkers and climbers doing their thing and no doubt causing mayhem to the emergency services who won't know what hit them. Insurance quotes will soar as those racing must be selfish idiots and those organising must be money grabbing empire builders with no thought for the real purpose of having hills in your country. How could anyone conceive such a thing in our dear and precious mountains?

On a minor point, Curved ridge is 'so close to the start' that it is actually about 9km from the start and with over 400m ascent to get to it. The chances of racers arriving at the same time is zip. Pick a hill race of a similar distance and ascent you find a spread over the first 100 runners will be at least 15 mins. As this is a long tough race, this spread will likely be a lot more. Can the ridge cope with this? Clearly no, and at 0800 in the morning, the Buachaille will have hordes of people up early especially on the race day for their ascent of CR. Thinking about it more, those poor walkers on the West Highland Way best look out. Imagine 100 people running along a path at the same time...inconceivable.....oh I forgot that over 600 run the Fling and the Devil....

Blah blah blah, ha ha ha. Role on the registration. Warn the servers, they will crash under the strain, and the hills will never be the same again. PS, have you heard the outrage of people running a race in Skye which crosses the Bad Step. Frivolous!


 Simon Caldwell 06 Feb 2015
In reply to 2ba:

Not sure why you chose to reply to my post with your diatribe as I'm a supporter of the race

I do think they'll need a contingency plan as to what will happen if they get to one of the narrow sections where it's difficult to pass safely and find a group of slow people there. But I'm sure that they already have such a plan.
 mountainbagger 07 Feb 2015
In reply to 2ba:

What a bizarrely defensive rant! And a little insensitive (see Tony's post above).

This is a debate not a whingefest. We're just having a chat as if we're discussing this down the pub. Throw your toys out the pram if you like or relax a bit and you might find people more receptive to your points!

And as Simon points out above quite a few people have been positive, including himself.

Personally, even though I do enjoy racing several times a year, I would probably prefer to do this kind of run by myself. If the organisers can make it safe, then I hope everyone has a good time, and other hill-goers are not majorly impacted. Not sure how busy Glencoe is in the middle of August, I usually go in winter or March/April time.
 Roadrunner2 09 Feb 2015
In reply to mountainbagger:

"If the organisers can make it safe, "

I dont think this can be made safe..

But that's not to say it shouldnt happen.. Shane is pushing the boundaries of what we have had access to in the past, plus a few others are too, with the winter night MM's and races like the Spine..

I do think this is a step up..

Mass events are pretty normal now, so this will have probably less impact on the glen than the countless ultra's and triathlons and other events which use the area.

I'm on the fence, I think its a great race, but the Tranter would be better in my opinion, it would allow a classic record to be repeatedly challenged. But it would have more logistical issues with support and rescue..

By the sounds of one advert the route will now have options, I dont know many/any sky races which allow you to miss out major sections.

I also don't like scrambling sections being marked, but that's sky racing so if they want to sky logo they need to flag, but when the welsh 1000m race gets flagged up the gribbin I think they take a more indirect looser line, when staying more on the solid crest is probably safer if you dont mind the mild exposure.

Its strange the FRA forum hasnt picked this up, as far as I've seen the forum has been strangely quiet re sky racing in the UK.. I expect that from the FRA themselves but not the forum.
 design crisis 12 Feb 2015
In reply to Banned User 77:

Sounds amazing. Good to see an exciting event that uses the amazing geology that is on offer. It combines everything that is good about mountaineering and running.

I think Ben Nevis NF car park, Tower Ridge to car park would be a cracking race!!



 mountainbagger 13 Feb 2015
In reply to design crisis:

Too hard for me! But maybe Ledge Route and CMD arete would be cool

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