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Just a heads up for all those like me who weren't aware of the changes at the Dartford Crossing on the M25.
The toll booths have gone/are being removed and are being replaced by paying over t'internet. Surprise, surprise, the cost has gone up and is now £2.50. If you don't pay up by the following day, you could be looking at a fine of £105. They have number plate recognition cameras.
Living in Yorkshire, I heard absolutely nothing about this change and had to rely on seeing a sign at the side of the M25 just before the crossing at a time that I needed to be concentrating on the traffic around me. Maybe it was advertised around London, but as a key arterial route to the Channel ports, it might have been worth letting the rest of the country know as well.
The toll booths have gone/are being removed and are being replaced by paying over t'internet. Surprise, surprise, the cost has gone up and is now £2.50. If you don't pay up by the following day, you could be looking at a fine of £105. They have number plate recognition cameras.
Living in Yorkshire, I heard absolutely nothing about this change and had to rely on seeing a sign at the side of the M25 just before the crossing at a time that I needed to be concentrating on the traffic around me. Maybe it was advertised around London, but as a key arterial route to the Channel ports, it might have been worth letting the rest of the country know as well.
In reply to Bingers:
Is Yorkshire out of range for National News Broadcasts on TV and Radio?
It's been on BBC News for the last few months!1 And I mean the national news, not just local stations
> > Living in Yorkshire, I heard absolutely nothing about this change and had to rely on seeing a sign at the side of the M25 just before the crossing at a time that I needed to be concentrating on the traffic around me. Maybe it was advertised around London, but as a key arterial route to the Channel ports, it might have been worth letting the rest of the country know as well.
Is Yorkshire out of range for National News Broadcasts on TV and Radio?
It's been on BBC News for the last few months!1 And I mean the national news, not just local stations
In reply to Bingers:
Thanks for the heads up, my brother and his family live down that way so useful to know. I don't remember this being broadcast either. Although I rarely watch the news on tele, I listen to radio 4 a lot.
Thanks for the heads up, my brother and his family live down that way so useful to know. I don't remember this being broadcast either. Although I rarely watch the news on tele, I listen to radio 4 a lot.
In reply to Bingers:
Agree with Mr.Collins, I knew nothing about this and I don't live as a cave dwelling hermit, but I do live in Yorkshire (no comments....).
What about if you are going abroad and have no access to the net for the next couple of days.
Surely there is a 'Luddite Slow technology take-up' lane with an old fashioned barrier for the non smart tablet enabled humans amongst us..if there any out there?
Agree with Mr.Collins, I knew nothing about this and I don't live as a cave dwelling hermit, but I do live in Yorkshire (no comments....).
What about if you are going abroad and have no access to the net for the next couple of days.
Surely there is a 'Luddite Slow technology take-up' lane with an old fashioned barrier for the non smart tablet enabled humans amongst us..if there any out there?
In reply to sbc_10:
I think that Luddite types have to go to a shop with a payzone sign. The more advanced can use a telephone.
Lmgtfy
https://www.gov.uk/pay-dartford-crossing-charge
Also worth knowing, it is free after 10pm and before 6am.
I think that Luddite types have to go to a shop with a payzone sign. The more advanced can use a telephone.
Lmgtfy
https://www.gov.uk/pay-dartford-crossing-charge
Also worth knowing, it is free after 10pm and before 6am.
Post edited at 12:46
In reply to Bingers:
Another Yorkshire didn't know here too.
It would not be too bad if the signs were posted far enough in advance to do something about it but I bet they are not.
Last time I went south it was midnight and my wife had been taken in to hospital after collapsing at proms in the park.
With only 1 junction to go I saw a sign saying emission charges apply past this point so I stopped in the services to get some info on what this entails. No signs, leaflets, asked the people working there but they didn't know either if I could take my van in.
Apparently in the south people just learn things like this through osmosis.
I did finally get the info via a crappy data signal and my phone but it was not straight forward.
Another Yorkshire didn't know here too.
It would not be too bad if the signs were posted far enough in advance to do something about it but I bet they are not.
Last time I went south it was midnight and my wife had been taken in to hospital after collapsing at proms in the park.
With only 1 junction to go I saw a sign saying emission charges apply past this point so I stopped in the services to get some info on what this entails. No signs, leaflets, asked the people working there but they didn't know either if I could take my van in.
Apparently in the south people just learn things like this through osmosis.
I did finally get the info via a crappy data signal and my phone but it was not straight forward.
In reply to Bingers:
Some interesting responses which I suspect indicates that sub consciously people tend to disregard some News items, even if regualrly repeated as in this case, which have no direct impact on them. It seems that at least 3 posters from Yorkshire claim to have been unaware of the changes to the Dartford Crossing Tolls.
Equally if there were News items about changes to the Humber Bridge tolls most Southerners would sub consciously disregard them, and probably claim later that they hadn't seen/read/heard anything about it because it doesn't directly affect them.
We all tend to have selective awareness.
Just a theory?
Some interesting responses which I suspect indicates that sub consciously people tend to disregard some News items, even if regualrly repeated as in this case, which have no direct impact on them. It seems that at least 3 posters from Yorkshire claim to have been unaware of the changes to the Dartford Crossing Tolls.
Equally if there were News items about changes to the Humber Bridge tolls most Southerners would sub consciously disregard them, and probably claim later that they hadn't seen/read/heard anything about it because it doesn't directly affect them.
We all tend to have selective awareness.
Just a theory?
Post edited at 13:47
In reply to Trangia:
The only other thing I can think of is that I heard it repeatedly on commercial radio, I don't recall hearing it on the BBC. Maybe if people don't listen to commercial stations it would be missed.
I do live near enough to pay attention to it, so that much does fit your theory.
The only other thing I can think of is that I heard it repeatedly on commercial radio, I don't recall hearing it on the BBC. Maybe if people don't listen to commercial stations it would be missed.
I do live near enough to pay attention to it, so that much does fit your theory.
In reply to Bingers:
Just been across and back yesterday to visit my brother. He warned me, but I'd missed anything in the media and it's not overly well signed at the crossing. One reason the price has gone up I think is that they're expecting a high proportion of non-payers and don't, in practice, expect to recover the fines. So it will be the honest subsidising the dishonest I fear.
One good point - if you fail to pay I understand the demand will arrive with a further 14 days to pay the standard £2.50 before the fine kicks in. Very sensible - and they'll get more money that way than by taking people to court I expect. And it should ultimately make for quicker crossings when they've cleared all the toll booths out the way.
Martin
Just been across and back yesterday to visit my brother. He warned me, but I'd missed anything in the media and it's not overly well signed at the crossing. One reason the price has gone up I think is that they're expecting a high proportion of non-payers and don't, in practice, expect to recover the fines. So it will be the honest subsidising the dishonest I fear.
One good point - if you fail to pay I understand the demand will arrive with a further 14 days to pay the standard £2.50 before the fine kicks in. Very sensible - and they'll get more money that way than by taking people to court I expect. And it should ultimately make for quicker crossings when they've cleared all the toll booths out the way.
Martin
In reply to Martin Hore:
I wouldn't rely on that, they might, but according to the website its £35 if paid in 14 days.
I wouldn't rely on that, they might, but according to the website its £35 if paid in 14 days.
In reply to Bingers:
I knew nothing about it before a Christmas visit down south. I'd not heard of it on the news, and as an ex Londoner I do tend to pay attention when London stories are reported on national media. My brother warned us, but if he hadn't we'd quite easily have missed the signs, which are totally inadequate. I nearly forgot to pay online too. The system seems designed to catch people out and winkle extra money from them.
I knew nothing about it before a Christmas visit down south. I'd not heard of it on the news, and as an ex Londoner I do tend to pay attention when London stories are reported on national media. My brother warned us, but if he hadn't we'd quite easily have missed the signs, which are totally inadequate. I nearly forgot to pay online too. The system seems designed to catch people out and winkle extra money from them.
In reply to Bingers:
Here's a few of the National, not local, press announcements. You can find more on Google. See my theory above about selective intake of News
BBC News http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26398839
Daily Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/how-to/11258060/New-Dartford-Crossing-t...
BBC News http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-30262125
Here's a few of the National, not local, press announcements. You can find more on Google. See my theory above about selective intake of News
BBC News http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26398839
Daily Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/how-to/11258060/New-Dartford-Crossing-t...
BBC News http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-30262125
In reply to marsbar:
Yes, I've just checked again and it does say £35 if paid within 14 days, but I did spot the 14 day "period of grace" I think while I was making my payment, so I'm not sure what's happening there.
edit - just checked again - the reference to the 14 day period of grace was in this news article http://www.expressandstar.com/business/uk-money/2014/12/30/15-fail-to-pay-d... It's for the first offence only and for a limited period and the information is only accurate if the statement from the Highways Agency representative has been correctly reported.
Martin
Yes, I've just checked again and it does say £35 if paid within 14 days, but I did spot the 14 day "period of grace" I think while I was making my payment, so I'm not sure what's happening there.
edit - just checked again - the reference to the 14 day period of grace was in this news article http://www.expressandstar.com/business/uk-money/2014/12/30/15-fail-to-pay-d... It's for the first offence only and for a limited period and the information is only accurate if the statement from the Highways Agency representative has been correctly reported.
Martin
Post edited at 16:11
In reply to Trangia:
Here's a few of the National, not local, press announcements. You can find more on Google. See my theory above about selective intake of News
The BBC ones are in the 'England' section of the News, wouldn't it have been better to put them in the 'UK' section?
Here's a few of the National, not local, press announcements. You can find more on Google. See my theory above about selective intake of News
The BBC ones are in the 'England' section of the News, wouldn't it have been better to put them in the 'UK' section?
1
In reply to Trangia:
You are obsessed with this. I have not seen it on the TV nor heard it on the radio. Nothing selective about it. Are you seriously suggesting I suddenly go deaf or blind? I'm in Edinburgh but regularly tour the country so have a distinct interest in how to cross the Thames without getting congestion charged or fined.
Your theory is nonsense!
I think I finally saw it on a newspaper site on the web, or google news, can't remember. And it was pointed out that it is not broadcast Europe wide. And France is a lot closer than Edinburgh. Unless those europeans are being wilfully deaf of course.
You are obsessed with this. I have not seen it on the TV nor heard it on the radio. Nothing selective about it. Are you seriously suggesting I suddenly go deaf or blind? I'm in Edinburgh but regularly tour the country so have a distinct interest in how to cross the Thames without getting congestion charged or fined.
Your theory is nonsense!
I think I finally saw it on a newspaper site on the web, or google news, can't remember. And it was pointed out that it is not broadcast Europe wide. And France is a lot closer than Edinburgh. Unless those europeans are being wilfully deaf of course.
In reply to digby:
Londoner, read the news most days - did not know about this until word of mouth last week. Also never hear about the changes to congestion charge and low emission zones that seem to be about once a year, have to look it up.
Almost bought a diesel minibus a year ago, assumed LEZ only applied to lorries and the like or we would have been told about it. Would've cost me thousands in daily £500 fines until I got my first letter. Luckily, living in London, I have suffered enough surprise fines over the years that I checked to be on the safe side
Call me cynical but guessing they do not tell us because the fines are a great source of income.
Londoner, read the news most days - did not know about this until word of mouth last week. Also never hear about the changes to congestion charge and low emission zones that seem to be about once a year, have to look it up.
Almost bought a diesel minibus a year ago, assumed LEZ only applied to lorries and the like or we would have been told about it. Would've cost me thousands in daily £500 fines until I got my first letter. Luckily, living in London, I have suffered enough surprise fines over the years that I checked to be on the safe side
Call me cynical but guessing they do not tell us because the fines are a great source of income.
In reply to trouserburp:
To be fair I got a letter warning about the LEZ well in advance. Presumably the cameras were working before it came in. If you hadn't been to London I don't suppose you'd have got a letter. I would imagine anyone living in London with a diesel would have got one too. And a pleasant surprise that would have been. I wonder how many people had to get rid of their vehicles.
The Dartford crossing is annoying though. If you are travelling and don't have a smartphone... and don't want to hunt for a corner shop on the M25... or didn't know about it...
To be fair I got a letter warning about the LEZ well in advance. Presumably the cameras were working before it came in. If you hadn't been to London I don't suppose you'd have got a letter. I would imagine anyone living in London with a diesel would have got one too. And a pleasant surprise that would have been. I wonder how many people had to get rid of their vehicles.
The Dartford crossing is annoying though. If you are travelling and don't have a smartphone... and don't want to hunt for a corner shop on the M25... or didn't know about it...
Post edited at 19:39
In reply to digby:
So foreign cars like mine wouldn't need to pay?
Frankly it sounds like a totally daft system, they should at least keep a few toll booths for people who just turn up and discover on the spot the new system, which is what I would have done, I've only heard of it on this thread. Individual freedom seems to be going down the drain in Britain... how come you all accept it? They tried to set up a toll system on all roads for lorries in France and they were just vandalized, in the end the scheme was dropped. I don't generally say it but at least the French stick up for themselves when the bureaucrats try to squash them... although this isn't always true, most motorways are toll roads and they didn't stop that
So foreign cars like mine wouldn't need to pay?
Frankly it sounds like a totally daft system, they should at least keep a few toll booths for people who just turn up and discover on the spot the new system, which is what I would have done, I've only heard of it on this thread. Individual freedom seems to be going down the drain in Britain... how come you all accept it? They tried to set up a toll system on all roads for lorries in France and they were just vandalized, in the end the scheme was dropped. I don't generally say it but at least the French stick up for themselves when the bureaucrats try to squash them... although this isn't always true, most motorways are toll roads and they didn't stop that
Post edited at 19:39
1
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Foreign cars do need to pay. But they almost certainly won't know about it.
The only free option within LEZ hours is the Blackwall Tunnel, or (not free and usually queues) the Woolwich Ferry.
Foreign cars do need to pay. But they almost certainly won't know about it.
The only free option within LEZ hours is the Blackwall Tunnel, or (not free and usually queues) the Woolwich Ferry.
Post edited at 19:49
In reply to digby:
Do have a vague memory of a letter about LEZ now you mention it, but that was several years earlier. Don't remember any about the congestion charge zone extension and un-extension and I think they changed the time period you can pay too, got stung £120 thinking I could pay the next day - else that was a failure in the word-of-mouth mechanism we rely on
I wouldn't understand a sign like this if I was driving abroad and wouldn't stop to translate it, road signs are generally pictorial or just place names. Is there a requirement for people to understand the language before driving somewhere?
Do have a vague memory of a letter about LEZ now you mention it, but that was several years earlier. Don't remember any about the congestion charge zone extension and un-extension and I think they changed the time period you can pay too, got stung £120 thinking I could pay the next day - else that was a failure in the word-of-mouth mechanism we rely on
I wouldn't understand a sign like this if I was driving abroad and wouldn't stop to translate it, road signs are generally pictorial or just place names. Is there a requirement for people to understand the language before driving somewhere?
In reply to Bingers:
The temporary traffic lights by the airfield have been moved past the junction, so it's better to just keep going now rather than turning left at the Fox and Goose.
The temporary traffic lights by the airfield have been moved past the junction, so it's better to just keep going now rather than turning left at the Fox and Goose.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Just a quick reality check... You're saying this in reference to a toll enforced by traffic-stopping booths being replaced by a toll enforced by an electronic payment system...??
What freedom is it eroding? Hopefully it will make a demonstrably positive contribution towards freedom to travel without being stuck in jams...
(It's certainly not eroding the freedom to use the M25 without having your number plate read and catalogued.... !)
> Individual freedom seems to be going down the drain in Britain... how come you all accept it?
Just a quick reality check... You're saying this in reference to a toll enforced by traffic-stopping booths being replaced by a toll enforced by an electronic payment system...??
What freedom is it eroding? Hopefully it will make a demonstrably positive contribution towards freedom to travel without being stuck in jams...
(It's certainly not eroding the freedom to use the M25 without having your number plate read and catalogued.... !)
Post edited at 20:05
In reply to wintertree:
It's the whole system of using cameras to trace where we are and what we do, like for road tax, insurance, and MOT I believe too, I just find it amazing that no one seems to have seen where all this is going. I won't be around when it reaches it's logical conclusion but I'm amazed that no one seems to be even trying to propose less libertycide solutions (if the word exists)
For example on the M25, make it free, paid out of general taxation or road tax, and for the Central London charge, how come most (all?) other big cities manage without? Even the recent fireworks for the New Year cost 10 quid... is everything in the future going to be reserved for the rich?
It's the whole system of using cameras to trace where we are and what we do, like for road tax, insurance, and MOT I believe too, I just find it amazing that no one seems to have seen where all this is going. I won't be around when it reaches it's logical conclusion but I'm amazed that no one seems to be even trying to propose less libertycide solutions (if the word exists)
For example on the M25, make it free, paid out of general taxation or road tax, and for the Central London charge, how come most (all?) other big cities manage without? Even the recent fireworks for the New Year cost 10 quid... is everything in the future going to be reserved for the rich?
In reply to Trangia:
It maybe all over the BBC in the London area but I live near Manchester and it's the first I've heard of it
oh yeah, I don't read the Telegraph either
> Is Yorkshire out of range for National News Broadcasts on TV and Radio?
> It's been on BBC News for the last few months!1 And I mean the national news, not just local stations
It maybe all over the BBC in the London area but I live near Manchester and it's the first I've heard of it
oh yeah, I don't read the Telegraph either
Post edited at 23:13
1
In reply to Trangia:
I am quite a keen follower of the news, on the BBC website, the daily 22.00 news, 5-Live and whatever nuggets of wisdom appear on here. However, despite all that, it never came up on my radar or quite a few others by the looks of things.
I am quite a keen follower of the news, on the BBC website, the daily 22.00 news, 5-Live and whatever nuggets of wisdom appear on here. However, despite all that, it never came up on my radar or quite a few others by the looks of things.
In reply to Bingers:
I got a leaflet in the car tax renewal form in august.
Not sure when they started that though or if it was just restricted to southern(ish) England.
I got a leaflet in the car tax renewal form in august.
Not sure when they started that though or if it was just restricted to southern(ish) England.
In reply to digby:
The LEZ is 24/7 and doesn't apply to cars, motorcycles, or vehicles over 3.5T that meet emission criteria. So effectively, it only applies to lorries, coaches and big vans.
> The only free option within LEZ hours is the Blackwall Tunnel, or (not free and usually queues) the Woolwich Ferry.
The LEZ is 24/7 and doesn't apply to cars, motorcycles, or vehicles over 3.5T that meet emission criteria. So effectively, it only applies to lorries, coaches and big vans.
In reply to Bingers:
I took a minibus over the crossing on the first day of the changeover. Although I hadn't heard in advance, there were plenty of signs - the only immediate problem were the queues. The bigger problem came later actually trying to pay. Unsuprisingly on the first day of a shiny new thing, the website collapsed and the phone lines were overwhelmed. I did eventually manage to pay my 3 quid, but it took a lot of effort.
I took a minibus over the crossing on the first day of the changeover. Although I hadn't heard in advance, there were plenty of signs - the only immediate problem were the queues. The bigger problem came later actually trying to pay. Unsuprisingly on the first day of a shiny new thing, the website collapsed and the phone lines were overwhelmed. I did eventually manage to pay my 3 quid, but it took a lot of effort.
In reply to Bingers:
I only knew about it as my parents live In Essex, but close to the crossing.
Paying for the crossing is a bit confusing (as mentioned earlier, it's free 6am and 10pm), but there are 2 options, a 1 off payment or set up an account. A one off payment is £2.50 each way. If you go online and set up an account (you register your car give £10, the lowest amount), each crossing is £1.67 and taken straight from the account.
Having used it over Christmas, it is nice not having to stop for the barriers, all the traffic is diverted around them.
I only knew about it as my parents live In Essex, but close to the crossing.
Paying for the crossing is a bit confusing (as mentioned earlier, it's free 6am and 10pm), but there are 2 options, a 1 off payment or set up an account. A one off payment is £2.50 each way. If you go online and set up an account (you register your car give £10, the lowest amount), each crossing is £1.67 and taken straight from the account.
Having used it over Christmas, it is nice not having to stop for the barriers, all the traffic is diverted around them.
In reply to tehmarks:
You're quite right. I'm so used to thinking in terms of my campervan I forgot it doesn't apply to cars!
You're quite right. I'm so used to thinking in terms of my campervan I forgot it doesn't apply to cars!
I do listen to the English news on occasions, but missed this one. Found out through word of mouth a couple of weeks ago. Only go that way every few years and could have got caught out - travelling to the mainland and not having a smart phone.
In reply to Bingers:
Saw it on the internet here in Cumbria,set up an account and used it twice over Xmas .Vast improvement on the old system.Would admit its difficult to read the signs and concentrate on the road.
Saw it on the internet here in Cumbria,set up an account and used it twice over Xmas .Vast improvement on the old system.Would admit its difficult to read the signs and concentrate on the road.
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