UKC

NEWS: Dawn Wall: The difficult pitches are all done by Tommy

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 UKC News 09 Jan 2015
Kevin Jorgeson on the razors of pitch 15, Dawn Wall, Yosemite, 5 kbTommy Caldwell has now done the first 20 pitches of the Dawn Wall-project and reached Wino Tower, i.e all the 5.14 and 5.13 pitches but one. Only injury or extreme weather can now stop him from completing this ground breaking and historic first ascent.
Meanwhile Kevin is preparing for yet another...

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=69426
 Michael Gordon 09 Jan 2015
In reply to UKC News:

Good stuff. Those holds look appalling!
 Bulls Crack 11 Jan 2015
In reply to UKC News:

So what happens when they do them all? They pull the rope and go for the redpoint/headpoint?
 Jubjab 11 Jan 2015
In reply to Bulls Crack:

not sure if you are just trolling, but it is the redpoint they are doing right now.
 Andy Hardy 12 Jan 2015
In reply to UKC News:

This was on R4 this morning interview with John Long etc. In it he said they'd been on the wall since 27/12 - if that's literally true what are they doing for water and food? or do they return to the valley to re-stock?
 Dennis999 12 Jan 2015
In reply to 999thAndy:

They hauled a lot with them, and there are people bringing it up to them too I believe.
 JLS 12 Jan 2015
In reply to 999thAndy:

>"what are they doing for water and food?"

They've got a couple of guys in support, jugging up and down fixed lines, restocking there camp.
Removed User 12 Jan 2015
In reply to JLS:

Wonder who got to switch the poop tube? Anyway is this not cheating a bit?
 timjones 12 Jan 2015
In reply to Removed User:

> Wonder who got to switch the poop tube? Anyway is this not cheating a bit?

Not really.

It's the best style that is realliastically achievable at present. Maybe someone will be able to do it in a single unsupported ground up push one day. But it seems harsh to claim that climbers who are pushing the extreme boundaries of climbing achievement are "cheating a bit" because they are having their lunch delivered.
 Jimbo C 12 Jan 2015
In reply to UKC News:

Awesome, sounds like they're going to be successful.

I to am a little confused about the style/ ethic, call it what you will so can understand this being questioned by others. Am I right in saying that they are basically red-pointing each pitch in sequence for however long it takes or until the weather forces them off?

I get that, as it's a big cliff with very many hard pitches and results in the route being free climbed from bottom to top. I don't understand the need for both of them to free every pitch, surely the team effort is what counts and it seems slightly contrived to rappel several pitches from the high point so that both climbers can have a go at getting all pitches free (or would do to me in the same scenario).

Whatever the style, big wall ethics will always seem strange to people from a small island where routes usually last less than a day. When complete this will be some achievement.
 Ramblin dave 12 Jan 2015
In reply to Jimbo C:

> Awesome, sounds like they're going to be successful.

> I to am a little confused about the style/ ethic, call it what you will so can understand this being questioned by others. Am I right in saying that they are basically red-pointing each pitch in sequence for however long it takes or until the weather forces them off?

Yeah, this is the thing that I find a bit hard to get my head around - if they can basically keep working stuff until the weather breaks or they can't stand the sight of each other any more then it doesn't seem like that much of a step up from just hanging around in the valley and aiding / jugging up or rapping down to redpoint each pitch individually. But then, as per Jimbo's point, I'm a UK bumbly and hard big walling is so far outside of my frame of reference that I'm probably just not getting it...
 elliptic 12 Jan 2015
In reply to Jimbo C:

> Am I right in saying that they are basically red-pointing each pitch in sequence for however long it takes or until the weather forces them off?

Yep.

> I don't understand the need for both of them to free every pitch, surely the team effort is what counts

Well, I'm guessing both of them *want* to free every pitch.

In reply to UKC News:
I guess the variation in how you can climb a big wall is immense. It does feel a bit weird that Kevin jugs up ahead to bed for the night, then raps down a few pitches to carry on, but if he didn't it would mean Caldwell waiting at the bottom of each pitch until Jorgeson completed it.

That being said, Honnold and David Allfrey bagged speed ascents by Honnold doing the free climbing and Allfrey doing the aid and nobody said 'Oh, but that's not really legitimate if Honnold didn't do the aid either' or vice versa.

I suppose in classical mountaineering all you need is a summit photo of the team, whereas with the relatively suburban Yosemite it's more about style.
Post edited at 14:01
 elliptic 12 Jan 2015
In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:

> That being said, Honnold and David Allfrey bagged speed ascents by Honnold doing the free climbing and Allfrey doing the aid and nobody said 'Oh, but that's not really legitimate if Honnold didn't do the aid either' or vice versa.

Anything goes on a speed ascent though.

When Todd S and Paul Piana freed the Salathe (the prototype for all these efforts) neither of them actually did all the pitches free and that did cause some carping further down the line.
 ashtond6 12 Jan 2015
In reply to Removed User:

> Wonder who got to switch the poop tube? Anyway is this not cheating a bit?

How is it cheating?

If people find water on the nose and drink it, is their ascent invalid?
 Mr Fuller 12 Jan 2015
In reply to UKC News:

I've got most of the ethics pretty established in my head - it seems fairly straightforward that each guy is going to climb to the top of the cliff, leading every individual pitch on the way, without going down to the valley. The bit I don't get is how much of this is natural gear and how much is bolted: I know a lot of the belay stations are bolted, but in a couple of the videos they talk about long pitches on dubious beaks and peckers with chance of them ripping; then the next pitch looks to be all bolted. Is it a case of using bolts when you can't use anything else, and how much of the gear are they placing on lead, or is a lot of it in-situ from aid attempts? Either way, I'm blown away by their efforts on this one: when I first heard about this route a few years ago I thought they were attempting something that they would never complete. That they are probably going to finish a route that maybe even they didn't think was possible is very powerful.
 Ramblin dave 12 Jan 2015
In reply to ashtond6:
> How is it cheating?

It seems intuitively like cheating because it seems to remove a massive limitation, specifically that you can only stay on the wall and keep working stuff for as long as your food and water supplies hold out. Assuming that people like Kevin and Tommy are fairly comfortable living on portaledges for extended periods of time, doing it in one push with people bringing them up fresh food and water supplies doesn't seem like massively better style than rapping in and redpointing each pitch independently over the course of a season or two.

But enough people who actually know about big walling seem to think otherwise that I'm assuming that I'm missing something.
Post edited at 15:27
 Michael Gordon 12 Jan 2015
In reply to Ramblin dave:

Certainly a single push no-falls ascent after previously redpointing the individual pitches would be better style, but for this route just a single push free ascent (redpointing as you go) is groundbreaking enough and an acceptable style to put up the route. I guess the former is one for the future!
 John2 12 Jan 2015
In reply to Mr Fuller:

You've got that slightly wrong - they both want to lead all the 5.14 pitches, but they're happy to second the easier pitches as long as they climb them free. On Saturday Jorgeson led the second part of pitch 16, which he led the first part of the day before, then he seconded pitch 17 (5.13c), which Caldwell led while Jorgeson was working pitch 15.
 Michael Gordon 12 Jan 2015
In reply to Ramblin dave:

> It seems intuitively like cheating because it seems to remove a massive limitation, specifically that you can only stay on the wall and keep working stuff for as long as your food and water supplies hold out. Assuming that people like Kevin and Tommy are fairly comfortable living on portaledges for extended periods of time, doing it in one push with people bringing them up fresh food and water supplies doesn't seem like massively better style than rapping in and redpointing each pitch independently over the course of a season or two.
>

I guess they consider a single push ascent of the whole route necessary to put it up in acceptable style. Certainly there's examples of other new lines being put up with some pitches being climbed on different occasions (even different years) to others, i.e. the line being climbed free, but not in a single push.
 JLS 12 Jan 2015
In reply to John2:

>"On Saturday Jorgeson led the second part of pitch 16, which he led the first part of the day before"

My understanding is he restarted 16 at the very beginning and did it all in a oner, the day after reaching the mid pitch no hands rest.

Though it might be the case Tommy did the Loop pitch in two halfs a day apart.
 John2 12 Jan 2015
In reply to JLS:

Damn, you're right. It was Caldwell that split the pitch. This must be the most confusing ascent ever made!
 timjones 12 Jan 2015
In reply to John2:

Are you sure? My understanding of the reports is that Kevin split the pitch at the hands free rest after the dyno and Tommy climbed the bypass as a single pitch. This would appear to be confirmed by Tom Evans in the comments on the latest El Cap report.
 ashtond6 12 Jan 2015
In reply to Ramblin dave:

> It seems intuitively like cheating because it seems to remove a massive limitation, specifically that you can only stay on the wall and keep working stuff for as long as your food and water supplies hold out. Assuming that people like Kevin and Tommy are fairly comfortable living on portaledges for extended periods of time, doing it in one push with people bringing them up fresh food and water supplies doesn't seem like massively better style than rapping in and redpointing each pitch independently over the course of a season or two.

> But enough people who actually know about big walling seem to think otherwise that I'm assuming that I'm missing something.

so I assume your also discounting warren hardings first ascent of the nose then?
By big walling ethics, its fine

Two guys, are leading pitch after to pitch up to 9a (a level considerably harder than pretty much every other big wall) to get to the top after spending a long time on the wall. Surely you can see the difference between that and abbing in and redpointing random pitches over 3 years whenever it suits?
 JLS 12 Jan 2015
In reply to timjones:

You are probably correct about split pitch 16. Having rechecked the various sources blogs and Facebook I note no one is saying that KJ re-did the Dyno pitch from the start.

Perhaps, I'd just read an inaccurate report.

Given all the media attention it's a shame the reports are so patchy. On Facebook you've got TC, KJ and Corey Rich who provide limited but from the horses mouth reports, also there's Tom Evans but he sees little of the actual sending that's mostly happening in the dark.

Oh for concise, accurate, daily reports.

 John2 12 Jan 2015
In reply to timjones:

Yes, the latest report is quite explicit on this http://www.elcapreport.com/content/elcap-report-1102015-special-dawn-wall-e... .

'By noon Tommy and Kevin were at the start of the 16th pitch, which Kevin had climbed the first half of, last night'
Backed up by the photos.

As for Caldwell, Andrew Bishart's account seems pretty explicit, but I must admit even though Bishart states that the pitch is now two pitches he doesn't state that Caldwell didn't climb it as one. http://eveningsends.com/climbing/notes-dawn-wall/
The two pitch scenario is backed up by the Yosemite bigwall topo http://www.yosemitebigwall.com/free-dawn-wall - Jorgeson's dyno was above belay number 16.

'Pitch 16 is now two pitches. The “Loop Pitch” (a 5.13+/14a) down climb. And a 5.14a corner above it (pitch 17).

The Loop Pitch is Tommy’s crafty solution to avoiding the Dyno—the 8-foot sideways leap that came to be emblematic of the Dawn Wall’s difficulty thanks to various films over the years. Now Tommy reverses 20 feet of pitch 15, down climbs 80 feet, traverses over to a corner and then climbs back up the corner to reach a no-hands stand just above the Dyno. The climbing on the Loop Pitch is 90 percent on top-rope. And at 5.14a, it’s probably the hardest down climb on El Cap.

From that no-hands rest/belay, there’s either pitch 17, or the remainder of pitch 16—depending on how you look at it. Pitch 17 climbs a sustained 5.14a lieback corner. And it’s the last pitch of 5.14 on the Dawn Wall'

I hope the whole climb gets written up in one coherent account once it's finished.
 JLS 12 Jan 2015
In reply to John2:

I found the report that said he'd redone the Dyno pitch from the start....

http://www.climbing.com/news/jorgeson-finishes-last-5-14-of-dawn-wall/

Obviously, it may just have been an assumption written in an office far far away...
 John2 12 Jan 2015
In reply to JLS:

We're in agreement now on the fact that Jorgeson did the dyno pitch in one, the doubt now is over whether Caldwell belayed at the belay marked as 16 on the topo. God, this is confusing.
 Ramblin dave 12 Jan 2015
In reply to ashtond6:

> so I assume your also discounting warren hardings first ascent of the nose then?

> By big walling ethics, its fine

I'm not really quibbling, just trying to get my head around why the ethics are the way they are. Spending weeks living on a portaledge and climbing 9a pitches is a long way out of my usual frame of reference!
 deepdiver 12 Jan 2015
In reply to UKC News:

> Tommy Caldwell has now done the first 20 pitches of the Dawn Wall-project and reached Wino Tower, i.e all the 5.14 and 5.13 pitches but one. Only injury or extreme weather can now stop him from completing this ground breaking and historic first ascent.

Not really. TC badly needs KJ to keep freeing his pitches. This is obligatory to claim free ascent for team: every pitch has to be freed on lead at least by one climber.
For individual free ascent all pitches has to be done on lead. It didn't happen here: each of them already second free some of the pitches which is alright for team free ascent but Tommy Caldwell wouldn't have rights to claim free ascent on his own so it wasn't just courtesy to wait for Kevin.
 Robert Durran 12 Jan 2015
In reply to ashtond6:

> Two guys, are leading pitch after to pitch up to 9a (a level considerably harder than pretty much every other big wall) to get to the top after spending a long time on the wall. Surely you can see the difference between that and abbing in and redpointing random pitches over 3 years whenever it suits?

There is certainly a diffrence but it is certainly arguable whether a single push with support from others who return to the ground is actually better style than doing so themselves (but therefore not doing it in a single push).

 deepdiver 12 Jan 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

> There is certainly a diffrence but it is certainly arguable whether a single push with support from others who return to the ground is actually better style than doing so themselves (but therefore not doing it in a single push).

You are right but single push is essential to claim free ascent on big walls (and small ones too). Support from the others is possible to excuse: on the big walls climbers can make a food/water deposits on the wall before the push. Then you wouldn't question it but over here the things are little bit more complicated: all ascent is recorded by professional photographers so they need support as well. Both climbers regardless of ascent are doing for them lots of rope work too. Anyway there is space for improvement for next guys to repeat. If there will be any in near future.
 John2 12 Jan 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

Just for the avoidance of doubt, I have an issue of Rock and Ice magazine in which there is an article by Tommy Caldwell which contains this passage -

'Here is my vision of the ultimate El Cap ascent: Someone drives into Yosemite at night, having never seen El Cap in picture or person. He or she walks to the base and onsight free-solos a new route. Obviously, this perfect ascent stretches the imagination, but the point is that anything less can be debated, and that is what is happening today. Fixed ropes, porters, stashing and pre-rehearsal are just a few of the techniques that are helping to whittle El cap down to size, and there is no consistency in how the various tricks are applied.'

He's aware that the style of this ascent is far from perfect, and will be questioned, but he's doing something that no one has done before. And it's good enough for John Long.
 ashtond6 12 Jan 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

> There is certainly a diffrence but it is certainly arguable whether a single push with support from others who return to the ground is actually better style than doing so themselves (but therefore not doing it in a single push).

yes of course its better style, but limits get pushed by challenges like this.... back to the first ascent of the nose.
Whats more impressive, Warren Hardings 1st ascent or the sub 24 hour ascents happening now? Impossible to compare. Is the sub 24 hours better style?

if a guy spends 4 years on a 8C+boulder problem, it is impressive
if someone then comes along 20 years later when standards have advanced, flashes it, that is obviously more impressive but doesn't take away the original achievement

 Robert Durran 12 Jan 2015
In reply to deepdiver:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> Support from the others is possible to excuse: on the big walls climbers can make a food/water deposits on the wall before the push. Then you wouldn't question it.

How do you know I wouldn't?
 Robert Durran 12 Jan 2015
In reply to ashtond6:

> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> yes of course its better style.

I don't think it's at all obvious that it's better style; it would certainly be much harder work for them if they were abbing down and then jumaring back up to resupply themselves every few days. In fact, on reflection its hard to see how getting others to do all that work for them could possibly be seen as better style, except by some contrived "rule".
Post edited at 22:37
 deepdiver 12 Jan 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

I missed the question mark. So would you?
In reply to UKC News:

I guess at the end of the day there is no right or wrong way. They are being upfront about their style, and until Ondra flys in and onsight solos the route then it just is what it is - a great feat of climbing, done in a certain way.
 Robert Durran 12 Jan 2015
In reply to deepdiver:

> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> I missed the question mark. So would you?

Yes; it could make a significant difference to the chances of success.
Post edited at 23:49
 Drexciyan 13 Jan 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:
Sorry but you are talking pish. Having whisky delivered to your portaledge is a style that cannot be improved upon.
 JLS 13 Jan 2015
In reply to Drexciyan:

It was whiskEy they had delivered, so obviously there is a style improvement to be made right there.
 Michael Gordon 13 Jan 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

> There is certainly a diffrence but it is certainly arguable whether a single push with support from others who return to the ground is actually better style than doing so themselves (but therefore not doing it in a single push).

It's obviously better style than just redpointing the individual pitches, since they've already done that. So the climb has been freed and all they need to do now is make a single push ascent. So them going back and redpointing the pitches in order but returning to the valley for supplies would seem like a rather contrived middle way. Once you've descended you may as well have a day or two off down there, and once you've done with that you may as well make the ascent in any time, waiting for bad periods of weather etc to clear up, possibly doing the route over a number of years.
 Skyfall 13 Jan 2015
Leo H on the main BBC news being interviewed about this. God, a lucid explanation of free climbing on mainstream TV lol
 deepdiver 13 Jan 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

What about bolted belays before attempt? They would make much bigger difference. What about pitches protected with bolts? Difference is even greater. However this attempt is gonna be in terms of first ascents the best so far on this wall.
BTW Head Point was questionable too. Nobody would question it now, even if climbers are much stronger and bolder than in the past.
 lithos 13 Jan 2015
In reply to UKC News:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/30711243

"then they'll probably need a rest" :0)
 Robert Durran 13 Jan 2015
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> So them going back and redpointing the pitches in order but returning to the valley for supplies would seem like a rather contrived middle way.

Maybe, but using others for support would seem rather dodgy too. Certainly, the first obvious achievable (?) improvement in style for future ascentionists would be to do away with the support and commit to a massive hauling effort.

 Robert Durran 13 Jan 2015
In reply to deepdiver:

> What about bolted belays before attempt? They would make much bigger difference. What about pitches protected with bolts? Difference is even greater.

Yes, though it could be argued that the bolts are effectively a permanent part of the route as established, which, realistically all future ascentionists will use, whereas preplaced food caches are a compromise which can be chosen or not chosen.
 deepdiver 13 Jan 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

IMO important is what is a minimum to say: that was free ascent.
- climbers do all route free,
- each pitch led by at least one of them,
- one push.

This is obligatory. And what to do to make it better? Everything step by step to the place where you climb free solo on sight, new route, with no chalk and climbing shoes. But if the style on its own would be our goal then climbing Vdiff in mountains should bring me an immortal glory. Doesn't. What does? Answer for two questions:
1) how many climbers would like to have this particular line on their ticklist.
And 2nd question:
2) how many climbers is capable to actually do this.

If answer for 1st question is: very few, and for 2nd question answer is: most of us, then we have an unnamed Diff route not worth to be mentioned, but in opposite proportions we have a world class route and ascent. Dream line.

Tommy Caldwell and Kevin Jorgensenn are doing more than minimum to achieve their goal: free ascent, and maximum what they're capable to.
 Oliver Hill 13 Jan 2015
In reply to UKC News:

This ascent is/will be both a huge achievement and/or a complete fiasco depending on your point of view. As long as they are honest about what they have done, no-one can bitch. They will have established a route climbed that way, a goal of two peoples’ long ambition, emotional, huge effort and skill. Just what we all admire.
A problem only appears when you decide how to categorise the ascent: sport red-point, trad, free, aided, etc. Clearly it is not trad, because most people’s idea of trad is two people free climbing to the top in one push with at least one person not weighting any pro on any pitch. In my view doing this and saying say, 5 pieces weighted would be fine. Next guy does it with 3 pieces. I suppose a fall would be one piece of aid. Of course Dawn Wall is quite long, so free with 101 pieces of aid gets quite cumbersome. I guess on this basis, Caldwell/Jorgesen would have used a few 100 pieces of aid on this present epic. Caldwell is The King on El Cap, and as is usual with royalty sets the rules.
When someone does it better there is a new king.
A problem with the present standard of ‘free’ ethics is that routes get occupied for many days, and allow for lots of ethical forum time. These guys definitely need a bit of payback, the longer it takes the better.
 mal_meech 13 Jan 2015
In reply to Oliver Hill:

This may help clarify things for you, the Yosemite definitions: http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=606109&v=1#x7961482
 ashtond6 13 Jan 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Yes, though it could be argued that the bolts are effectively a permanent part of the route as established, which, realistically all future ascentionists will use, whereas preplaced food caches are a compromise which can be chosen or not chosen.

still not answered the question...

Do you consider Hardings first ascent of the nose a cheat also?
 john arran 13 Jan 2015
In reply to deepdiver:

> IMO important is what is a minimum to say: that was free ascent.

> - climbers do all route free,

> - each pitch led by at least one of them,

> - one push.

> This is obligatory.

I've done lots of big wall free ascents without feeling the need to do them in one push. It's a nice, simple concept and sounds good for routes in well-developed places like Yosemite, but in genuinely exploratory climbs fixing a few pitches from the floor before committing to the wall makes a lot more sense. Artificially requiring teams not to do that would feel, well ... artificial.
 Robert Durran 13 Jan 2015
In reply to ashtond6:

> Do you consider Hardings first ascent of the nose a cheat also?

Also? What are you referring to?

I can only assume that you think I consider the style in which Dawn Wall is being climbed is a "cheat". I have not said so and I do not think so. I am just interested in what is considered better style when trading off apparently fairly arbitrarily between different compromises such as support from others versus lack of single push when good arguments could be made either way. I have not said anything at all critical of the climbers let alone accused them of cheating!

 Robert Durran 13 Jan 2015
In reply to john arran:

> I've done lots of big wall free ascents without feeling the need to do them in one push. It's a nice, simple concept and sounds good for routes in well-developed places like Yosemite, but in genuinely exploratory climbs fixing a few pitches from the floor before committing to the wall makes a lot more sense.

Isn't that what a lot of people do on the Nose?!
 deepdiver 13 Jan 2015
In reply to john arran:

> I've done lots of big wall free ascents without feeling the need to do them in one push.

You have my curiosity now. So how did you do an "free ascent on big walls with out one push"?

> It's a nice, simple concept and sounds good for routes in well-developed places like Yosemite,

Simple concept of climbing few pitches, retreating and comming back, aid climb pitches already done to climb remaining pitches free?

> but in genuinely exploratory climbs fixing a few pitches from the floor before committing to the wall makes a lot more sense. Artificially requiring teams not to do that would feel, well ... artificial.

Start on the bottom, finish on the top. Do it free if you can or as close to this as possible if route was to hard for me to free it. This is what I call simple climbing.

 john arran 13 Jan 2015
In reply to deepdiver:

> You have my curiosity now. So how did you do an "free ascent on big walls with out one push"?

By "one push" people usually mean that once started you don't come down until you've done it, whereas in reality a lot of walls are done by climbing and fixing some of the low pitches and then jugging up the ropes to get to and climb the rest of the route.
 deepdiver 13 Jan 2015
In reply to john arran:

Then you freed all pitches. It doesn't mean you have done the free ascent of the route.
I will give you example from my climbs: i have done OS 4 pitches of Guy-Anne (Envers Hut) and the ab off due to rainfall. Next day I did entire route in first go. So I have done all pitches On Sight. However I climbed this route RP (in 2nd go).
 Max factor 13 Jan 2015
In reply to deepdiver:

Well put this another way. Deciding to carry all your gear and go capsule style seems a contrivance, and less fun, than fixing the first few pitches and then choosing to finish the route faster and less encumbered with gear.
 deepdiver 13 Jan 2015
In reply to Max factor:

To fix few pitches you need a lots of rope and gear. If I can't climb a route in one push I accept fact that this route is too hard for me.
 ashtond6 13 Jan 2015
In reply to deepdiver:

yet you redpoint single pitch? one rule
 ashtond6 13 Jan 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I can only assume that you think I consider the style in which Dawn Wall is being climbed is a "cheat". I have not said so and I do not think so.

My apologies Robert, I thought it was you that said that earlier but it was 'Hardonicus'!
 Michael Gordon 13 Jan 2015
In reply to deepdiver:

> Then you freed all pitches. It doesn't mean you have done the free ascent of the route.
>

That's a matter of opinion, and I'm not sure you'd be in the majority. Take Randall/Whittaker on Freerider. Many questioned whether it should be called a flash but I think few would argue that they climbed the route.
 Mick Ward 13 Jan 2015
In reply to deepdiver:

> Then you freed all pitches. It doesn't mean you have done the free ascent of the route.

Well, so say you. But it doesn't mean we have to agree with you.

Re context, rather than the logic of your argument: you do realise the kind of stuff John's done?

Mick

 Alun 13 Jan 2015
In reply to Mick Ward:
> Re context, rather than the logic of your argument: you do realise the kind of stuff John's done?

Clearly he doesn't but, with respect to John and his achievements, resorting to "do you know who he is?" style of discussion means that the point has not been made clearly enough (or, is too complex to make?!)

I think the principal confusion in the whole matter is not that the climbers have been jugging up to their high point (something which is quite common on big walls, as John mentions), but that
i) they have fixed lines running up and down the whole route, so can access any part of it at will, and
ii) early on they were abbing down to their high point from their mid-heigh ledge camp. (As explained clearly here http://www.elcapreport.com/content/elcap-report-12282014-special-dawn-wall-... ).
I think several people find this confusing.

It is doubly confusing in that they appear to be content to 'team lead' the easier pitches, but both wish to lead the hard pitches. (Except for Tommy, who has chosen not to try the infamous dyno pitch).

The key point, however, is that they are trying to lead each pitch, from the bottom to the top, and not progressing to the next pitch until ticking the previous one without falls. Furthermore, they are being almost painfully honest about the style they are employing.

Personally, I think the whole adventure is awesome, in every sense of the word, and I'm looking forward to seeing the film!
Post edited at 21:28
 Mick Ward 13 Jan 2015
In reply to Alun:

> Clearly he doesn't but, with respect to John and his achievements, resorting to "do you know who he is?" style of discussion means that the point has not been made clearly enough (or, is too complex to make?!)

The poster in question seems to feel that because he thinks a thing is so, it is. I would venture to disagree. As I'm sure, would others.

My coda re John referred strictly to what he'd done. And, in view of what he's done and how he's done it, it just might be that he has more experience in these matters that most of us (like me!) and has thought longer and harder about these matters than most of us (like me!)

Perhaps my reply should have read something like:

'The confidence of amateurs
is the envy of professionals...'

And there I must leave you.

Mick

 Michael Gordon 13 Jan 2015
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> That's a matter of opinion, and I'm not sure you'd be in the majority. Take Randall/Whittaker on Freerider. Many questioned whether it should be called a flash but I think few would argue that they climbed the route.

I just read that again. Change "argue" to "dispute" and the sentence is a bit clearer.
 Mick Ward 13 Jan 2015
In reply to Alun:

> Furthermore, they are being almost painfully honest about the style they are employing.

Surely this is what really matters.

Mick (definitely gone now)

 stp 13 Jan 2015
In reply to UKC News:

Some good footage of KJ finally redpointing the crux pitch 15.

Unlike the official sponsored footage this simply shows the pitch climbed from start to finish without constant interruption (may not be suitable for those with short attention spans). It's 12 minutes long. Vertical climbing with quite a few rests and at a grade of 9a. I can only imagine that the climbing must be extremely unpleasant.

youtube.com/watch?v=zSgDg4YaYLQ&
 john arran 14 Jan 2015
I think the difficulty people often have comes down to the fundamental difference between climbing style definitions and most sports' rules: climbing terms are derived from the way people choose to climb, whereas sporting rules thenselves determine how people choose to play their sport.

So I might choose a very different approach depending on whether I'm in Yosemite or Baffin Island, whether it's a new route or a repeat, etc. rather than feeling any desire to conform to an accepted generic norm that somehow is supposed to make equal sense in all situations. Within reason, of course.

Once you get your head around the fact that these terms are just ways of reporting an ascent, rather than qualifying requirements, it all makes a lot more sense.
 deepdiver 14 Jan 2015
In reply to Michael Gordon:

I agree. My mistake was: I assumed the rules for Alpine climbing (which I used to do) and big wall (which I never did) are these same. They aren't.
Simmular story to sending pitch for sport climbing when I finish once clip into a chain of belay, while on trad I finish once I am in NHR.
Apologies to all of you for the way I express myself like a "presenting the facts" rather than "personal opinions". Its about 50 shades of grey - english is my second language so I can operate only about 15 shades on "grey vocabulary scale".
 Mick Ward 14 Jan 2015
In reply to deepdiver:

Hey, no big deal but thanks anyway! Apologies are pretty rare on here; always a graceful touch when someone makes one.

And appreciate the point about expressing yourself in a second language - not so easy.

Best wishes,

Mick
 JLS 14 Jan 2015
In reply to UKC News:

So, looking like they'll finish the last four pitched tonight!

http://www.elcapreport.com/content/elcap-report-1132015-special-dawn-wall-e...
In reply to JLS:

The live video is running again now:

http://gripped.com/profiles/watch-dawn-wall-live-now/
 Fraser 14 Jan 2015
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Ooof! What a cracking wee sequence there with the 'up-down-up-down, will I - won't I' hesitation!
In reply to Fraser:

Funny - watching it they look like they're climbing onsight. I guess perhaps they effectively are - they've done these pitches before but as they're much easier I suppose they won't have much memory of them. Plus they're presumably completely knackered.

jcm
 Fraser 14 Jan 2015
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Agreed. Maybe the nerves are kicking in slightly due to the realisation of the enormity of them [hopefully] pulling it off, now that the end is very much in sight. I must say though, it does look like it'd have been much 'easier' with two ropes, particularly that last pitch!
 Mark Collins 14 Jan 2015
In reply to UKC News:

Loving the Joe Brown helmet, is this El Cap or Old Man of Hoy.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Yes, that overhanging chimney must have absolutely knackered the leader. The crux? of the pitch, just below the overhang took him about 50 tries over 20 minutes, in an overhanging chimney slot.

And this last pitch. What an incredible route, what an incredible piece of route finding.
 Fraser 14 Jan 2015
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Yikes, I thought KG was off there for a second when his right foot slipped! For a F7b pitch, that 'trough' part has given them both some food for thought. It looks like those guys are running on fumes now.
 aln 14 Jan 2015
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> The live video is running again now:


Not on my Android. Where can I see this?
 Fraser 14 Jan 2015
In reply to Kevin Bowser:

Cheers, that's definitely better.
In reply to Fraser:

We often talk about thread juxtapositions on UKC. Surely tonight has the most extraordinary juxtaposition of the sublime and the ridiculous that we have ever seen here: the Dawn Wall and Emma's Temptation threads (arguably the greatest rock climb in the world v. a scruffy little 'route' so undistinguished that the selected guide 'On Peak Rock' doesn't even bother to mention it) ?
Removed User 14 Jan 2015
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Dawn Wall is not in the Peak Gordon?
 Chris the Tall 14 Jan 2015
In reply to UKC News:

Sorry if this question has been asked a hundred times, but what's the ground breaking aspect of this climb ?

Is it the first free ascent of El Cap, or just of this particular route ? Didn't pete Whittaker onsight one of the routes recently ?

What reports I've seen have stressed the height of El cap, but they appear to be dumbing down for the viewer/reader. is it simply that this is the hardest route freed so far ? Was Dawn Wall a noted challenge prior to their attempt ?

Obviously it's a major ascent, but how much is media hype ?
 JJL 14 Jan 2015
In reply to UKC News:

Last pitch!
 JLS 14 Jan 2015
In reply to Chris the Tall:

Basically it's a good bit harder than has ever been done. Three pitches of F9a is just bonkers. Few people will climb F9a in a life time. To reapeat three in a week amidst all hardships of living on a portaledge for three weeks impresses me.
 JJL 14 Jan 2015
In reply to UKC News:

one up!
In reply to JJL:

Well, they're belaying c. 15 ft below the top. I hope we get shots from the top when they finish.
 JJL 14 Jan 2015
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Theres a section of 3rd to get to the "top" and the tree.

Bet they sleep well tonight.... and smell better after a shower!
In reply to JJL:

Yup, I guess they'll just scramble up that and then collapse. Big hugs when they got to the end of the difficulties. I guess they'll set straight off down the famously long and tiring descent while the light holds.
 jsmcfarland 14 Jan 2015
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

You almost wish they could just abseil down one of the 3k ft long static ropes the photographers were using... poor guys I'm amazed there was no live camera setup at the top though. I thought it would be quite boring watching the last few pitches but actually quite inspiring and has got me psyched
In reply to jsmcfarland:

The third last pitch was amazing, and even the final layback was rather beautiful. It could have been anything between HVS and E2 - you just can't tell, these guys are so good.
In reply to UKC News:

And off they wandered to the top! Crazyness just went down!
 ashtond6 15 Jan 2015
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

those pitches all seem to be in the mid 5.12's though. amazing
In reply to Chris the Tall:

>Is it the first free ascent of El Cap, or just of this particular route ?

Just this particular route.

>Didn't pete Whittaker onsight one of the routes recently ?

He flashed Freerider, subject to some debate the details of which I forget.

>it simply that this is the hardest route freed so far ?

Yes, pretty much.

>Was Dawn Wall a noted challenge prior to their attempt ?

Not before Tommy C started projecting it about six years ago. At that time it was thoiught ridiculously futuristic by many.

>Obviously it's a major ascent, but how much is media hype ?

Not much, I would say, although time will tell, of course. From what little I know I think this is a truly big event.

jcm
 Robert Durran 15 Jan 2015
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
> .......the final layback was rather beautiful. It could have been anything between HVS and E2 - you just can't tell, these guys are so good.

12b acording to the topo, so that could have been anything between about E3 and E6 then - you just can't tell, their grading system is so inadequate

But yes, it was rather beautiful watching them wander slowly up those last pitches.
Post edited at 01:06
 Ian Parsons 15 Jan 2015
In reply to Chris the Tall:


> Is it the first free ascent of El Cap, or just of this particular route ?

Neither - in a sense. It's obviously not the former; there's a growing list of El Cap free routes, none of which appear to come close to this one. It's not the FFA of this route, because up until a couple of hours ago this route didn't exist; it's a new route which weaves together bits of several aid routes on this part of El Cap and some generally harder sections of completely new climbing.

abseil 15 Jan 2015
In reply to Removed User:

I was just thinking, what's all the fuss about, I've done that free many times, when I realized I was mixing it up with Dawn Walk at Avon.
 Nic_Sandy 15 Jan 2015
In reply to UKC News:

I don't really know much about big walling so I'll keep it brief. Why does everyone harp on about the style? Those lads have been at six years, that's a lot of work on such a nails big wall who cares if someone jumars some whiskey up for them especially when they live on a portaledge. If they had to do it themselves they maybe wouldn't be able to climb that hard in one push. The whole thing is kind of mind blowing and unique and so requires a different approach I guess. F***ing epic achievement
 Martin Haworth 15 Jan 2015
In reply to UKC News:

I think they are going to be a little peeved when they hear the news... apparently Eric Jones soloed this line in 1968 but didnt tell anyone at the time because he didnt want any fuss.
 Robert Durran 15 Jan 2015
In reply to Nic_Sandy:

> Why does everyone harp on about the style?

Because style is pretty much everything in this sort of thing.

> Who cares if someone jumars some whiskey up for them especially when they live on a portaledge. If they had to do it themselves they maybe wouldn't be able to climb that hard in one push.

Which is presumably precisely why they accepted this compromise in style. If I wanted to be able to climb it in one push, I would have to make further compromises (such as a big power drill and hundreds and hundreds of bolts for aid).



 climbwhenready 15 Jan 2015
In reply to Nic_Sandy:

> Why does everyone harp on about the style?

I have no idea. But my theory is:

Climbers care a lot about how something is climbed, because you can aid it, free solo it, or anything in between. So for clarity, there's a lot of definitions of different "styles" so we all know what a redpoint is, etc. and can put ascents into these boxes.

Thing is, these guys have been really clear about exactly what they've done - but it doesn't quite fit neatly into any of these boxes. So rather than obsessing about the fact that it was free climbed, and we know exactly how they did it, people are obsessing about what box to classify the ascent as.
 Ramblin dave 15 Jan 2015
In reply to climbwhenready:
I suspect that the reason that it's a bit confusing for some Brits (like me) is that we don't really have big walls so our frame of reference is single day trad and mountaineering. And since this clearly isn't a one-day trad ascent, we try to fit it into the mountaineering box, and when we see people portering food around and fixing lines from lower camps and so on, we think "oh, siege tactics, I thought that was considered a bit unsporting these days". Obviously this is wrong - big walling is a different game with different challenges - but I think it might explain some of the headscratching.

Also, i9t's worth emphasising that pretty much everyone I've seen who's commented on the style has tended to fall over themselves to emphasise that the whole thing is an incredible achievement, massively significant climb whatsoever, but they're slightly confused by what's allowed and what isn't and why in the style...
Post edited at 09:47
 Mr. Lee 15 Jan 2015
In reply to UKC News:

Has nobody mentioned the BBC headline yet? It reads like the Daily Mail. First few lines suggest that they were the first people to free climb anything on El Capitan.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30824372
 Robert Durran 15 Jan 2015
In reply to climbwhenready:

> People are obsessing about what box to classify the ascent as.

I actually think that it is rather dodgy to describe the ascent as "single push". If they had gone up and down from the ground themselves to resupply I don't think anyone would be describing it as "single push", yet this would undoubtedly have made the undertaking more demanding. By easing the ascent the supporters should be seen as part of the team and therefore the "single push" has been blown. I don't think anyone would describe a similar approach on a Himalayan peak as "single push" or "alpine style".

In the end it is what it is, everyone knows what it is, and it is very, very impressive.

I like the fact that there is an obvious improvement in style (true single push conventional pitch by pitch hauling) available that may be just about possible for future ascentionists (Ondra, once he's served his trad apprenticeship?). The flash or onsight does seem improbably futuristic though......

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