UKC

While planning my 2015 climbing campaign (with a focus on mountain routes rather than high grades!) I came across some photos of the pinnacles on Amphitheatre Buttress. My guidebook says "Careful ropework should be used to protect the second."

My question is, are there any tricks to this other than placing regular protection on descents?

In reply to climbwhenready:

No

In reply to climbwhenready:


I can't remember anything being hard about the pinnacles or there having to be careful rope work either.

It's a very easy route.

Enjoy

M

In reply to climbwhenready:

If you're referring to placing gear while climbing it really boils down to common sense and thinking it through not just from the point of your potential fall but also a potential fall from your second. It's a very easy mistake, for example, to place good gear, do a hard traverse rightwards onto easy ground, then continue further right without any more gear because it's easy. Your second then needs to take the gear out and do the hard traverse moves with the prospect of a huge swing. A better plan would be to place gear after the hard moves too, even if this means climbing out of your way a little to find something good.

In reply to climbwhenready:

protection isn't always just for the leader - It can often be the case you forget that your second has to do the same route as you and become selfish with protection. Just try to think about if you were seconding the route, what would you like to see?

In reply to climbwhenready:

Definitely on traverses you should think about swings.

In reply to climbwhenready:


Do you mean in general, or just for this route.

In reply to climbwhenready:

Remember when down climbing to put a piece of gear just below any hardish moves, and the same with traverses, put at piece of gear just after any hard moves. Your second will thank you. Once saw a very competent leader protect his hard move but not think about his less able second on a traverse. That is why Pendulum at Stoney is so aptly named!

In reply to MGC:


Certainly the case if you're experienced climbers and Diff/VDiff is well below your usual grade.

If however your second is a novice (I've led several up Amphitheatre Buttress); the scramble down from the 1st big pinnacle is best protected with something that won't lift out when the rope then goes across the rest of the pinnacles; the second can easily be protected across these by flicking the rope on the other side of the odd pinnacle to the second.

In general terms, what John Arran says about protecting seconds, sums it up perfectly.

In reply to john arran:

Thanks - I figured that was roughly the case but I was wondering if there was something non-obvious. Apparently not! Thanks!

In reply to David Coley:


It was this route that made me think of it, but I was asking generally.

In reply to Hat Dude:




Yes - I was thinking in particular about inexperienced seconds when asking the question. I don't anticipate any problems climbing VDiff but I would like my second not to take a ground fall if they slip, even on easy-ish ground. Thanks for the reply!

In reply to climbwhenready:
There are tricks. I've done this route a couple of times and the pinnacles on this route are not easy for a beginner: depending on how able or nervous they are it could be quite scary and you might want to use a back rope. I can't remember the specific protection but with two ropes you can back rope any tricky bits on one rope (ie leave gear in to protect steps across or steps down and then go back yourself (once the second reaches you) to retreive the gear. You can also easily traverse lower down past the pinnacles if you feel they are too much. Another trick is belay from both sides if you have a beginner (in the middle) and a more capable second. As a word of warning you don't want to experimenting on beginners in such situations when you use this for the first time...if you intend to use a skill (like back-roping) practice it first in safety (you can do this at the bottom of any crag... the key issue is being able to safely manage two ropes independantly: one taking in, one feeding out).

If you only have one rope just tie in the middle when you reach them but to be honest tricky bits on pitches on this route are so short being on a doubled 50m rope is a benefit to protect and stay in close communication with the second anyhow.

In reply to Offwidth:

That's really helpful advice. I've never tried back roping but I will give it some practice. Thanks a lot!

In reply to climbwhenready:
I have only done it once,with two of us making up a very experienced and reasonably competent pair. It is a great route but not one to be underestimated,especially with a novice. As we were on the first pitch, a very well equipped pair abseiled down, one of them having taken a tumble on one of the several tricky bits. As for the pinnacles, I chose not to go over the tallest one as the weather was closing in and it looked difficult to protect. I suspect a novice getting up and more so getting down it could find it daunting. There was no easy way to protect the knife edge, I think I kept the rope on the opposite side to my chosen side but I had a more than competent partner who could manage the difficulties so I was not unduly worried about protecting it. You do well to ask in advance, much will depend on the weather but I would suggest approaching with an open mind and not being afraid to adopt a conservative strategy if conditions dictate.Enjoy and I should say I intend to return such was its classic nature.

In reply to climbwhenready:


In that case, this is from the Forces chapter on www.multipitchclimbing.com


Another place where it is important to consider angles is if the protection is off to the side and a swing might end with the leader or second hitting something, usually the opposing wall of a corner. From high school physics we know that if the climber falls a distance h then their potential energy mgh will have all been converted into kinetic energy ½mv2 at the base of the fall. This is true whether the drop is a straight line or a swing. This means that a 2m (6ft) swing into a corner (with the protection at the same height as the climber) is the same as a 2m fall onto a ledge. A leader will try to do their best not to drop the second 2m onto a ledge, so they should try to not allow them to smash into a corner at the same speed. Often this situation can be avoided by the use of a second rope, or not placing protection at the base of a corner if using only one rope. The mental picture that probably needs to be encouraged is one of “corner equals ledge”.

A swing can easily be even more serious than a straight fall of a similar terminal speed. In a vertical fall onto a ledge you will hopefully land on your feet and your legs will bend to absorb the impact. In a swing the climber might impact the wall side-on, not feet first. This can lead to serious injuries even with small falls. (How would any of us fancy being dropped 2m horizontally onto a stone floor onto our ribs?) Accident data shows that a surprising number of climbing accidents are of this type, and possibly indicate that climbers don’t try take side falls as seriously as they should.

In reply to climbwhenready:
I've done this route a couple of times. I seemed to remember a few long tapes came in very handy on the top bit.

In reply to climbwhenready:

Also, when using two ropes, you can often do a traverse on one of the ropes, leaving the other rope free, so that as you climb higher, it can be used as a rope going straight upwards from the second, thus protecting them from any potential pendulums. A typical example of this sort of route is on is Valkyrie at the Roaches.

In reply to climbwhenready:

Really good points about swings, and some useful tips in this thread. I'll remember the one about Valkyrie as I've got some of the classic routes at the Roaches firmly in my sights for the coming season.

Also worth remembering that points about swings and protecting the second have other applications than just locations for en-route protection. There was a nasty accident at Stanage last Summer where the lead used a belay anchor that was a long sling or rope with him out on a prow of some kind tethered by a line to something further back. The second came of on the 'wrong' side of the arete, pulling the lead of his perch so he swung down and round on his line smacking himself up badly and dropping his second so she got severely mangled too.

Both parties had nasty head-injuries which spoiled the climbing for those around, who of course rushed to help but were badly shaken by cradling bloodied heads and what have you so third parties would have benefited from better protection too.

In reply to climbwhenready:

Protection before the crux is for the leader and protection after the crux is for the second.