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Thinking of buying some new ice screws?
In this comparison review we have ice screws from the best in the business. From classic designs that have been around for a while through to new and ground breaking screws that will shave weight off your rack and bite in to the ice better than ever before.
But which ones are the best? And which are right for you?
Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=6955
In reply to UKC Gear:
Is there any word on a handle update for the revolution? There was some scutterbutt a while ago, but nothing ever really came about. Apparently due to patents.
They are beautiful screws, with a great bite and practical but woefully bad winding!
Is there any word on a handle update for the revolution? There was some scutterbutt a while ago, but nothing ever really came about. Apparently due to patents.
They are beautiful screws, with a great bite and practical but woefully bad winding!
I'm sorry but this review is ridiculous, why on earth is the E-Climb screw not there? This a two-horse race between e-climb and Petzl laser, and you miss one of them?
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In reply to Ramon Marin:
Ramon, people often say that about comparative reviews, but it may simply be E-Climb didn't send one for review for whatever reason or wasn't included because they're not distributed in the UK. Something like that is normally the case
Ramon, people often say that about comparative reviews, but it may simply be E-Climb didn't send one for review for whatever reason or wasn't included because they're not distributed in the UK. Something like that is normally the case
In reply to UKC Gear:
Used the Petzl screws for the first time a few weeks ago. Bite really well. Any risk of increased corrosion in the long term? Worried any damage to the aluminium anodizing could induce corrosion.
Used the Petzl screws for the first time a few weeks ago. Bite really well. Any risk of increased corrosion in the long term? Worried any damage to the aluminium anodizing could induce corrosion.
In reply to Mr. Lee:
Interesting, also interesting is the chances of galvanic corrosion between the two metals.
Interesting, also interesting is the chances of galvanic corrosion between the two metals.
In reply to GarethSL:
To quote the British Stainless Steel Association:
"Corrosion risks with aluminium and stainless steel in contact
Aluminium and stainless steel together also appears to be a bi-metallic corrosion risk, from the 'nobility' table.
With this combination the affect of relative surface area on corrosion is important.
A large area of 'cathode' relative to 'anode' will accelerate the anodic corrosion. Although aluminium is anodic to stainless steel, large relative surface areas of aluminium to stainless steel can be acceptable, dependant on local conditions.
Stainless steel fasteners in aluminium plates or sheets are normally considered safe, whereas aluminium rivets or bolts holding stainless steel parts together is an unwise combination, as there is a practical risk of corrosion.
An example of the safe use of stainless steel and aluminium together is where stainless steel fasteners and hold down bolts are used to secure aluminium roadway or bridge parapet guards.
Even with no insulation between the metals, there should be little risk of corrosion.
In contrast, in a marine environment, severe localised pitting corrosion to the aluminium treads has been observed where un-insulated stainless steel bolts were used to secure the treads in place.
On the same ladder however, bolts with sound insulating washers did not show any pitting on the surrounding aluminium.
This illustrates the beneficial effect of breaking the corrosion cell by isolating the two 'dissimilar' metals in marginal cases."
To quote the British Stainless Steel Association:
"Corrosion risks with aluminium and stainless steel in contact
Aluminium and stainless steel together also appears to be a bi-metallic corrosion risk, from the 'nobility' table.
With this combination the affect of relative surface area on corrosion is important.
A large area of 'cathode' relative to 'anode' will accelerate the anodic corrosion. Although aluminium is anodic to stainless steel, large relative surface areas of aluminium to stainless steel can be acceptable, dependant on local conditions.
Stainless steel fasteners in aluminium plates or sheets are normally considered safe, whereas aluminium rivets or bolts holding stainless steel parts together is an unwise combination, as there is a practical risk of corrosion.
An example of the safe use of stainless steel and aluminium together is where stainless steel fasteners and hold down bolts are used to secure aluminium roadway or bridge parapet guards.
Even with no insulation between the metals, there should be little risk of corrosion.
In contrast, in a marine environment, severe localised pitting corrosion to the aluminium treads has been observed where un-insulated stainless steel bolts were used to secure the treads in place.
On the same ladder however, bolts with sound insulating washers did not show any pitting on the surrounding aluminium.
This illustrates the beneficial effect of breaking the corrosion cell by isolating the two 'dissimilar' metals in marginal cases."
In reply to UKC Gear:
My assumption is that Petzl will have taken the very well-known risk of galvanic corrosion into account - but only time will tell. It wouldn't put me off buying one though.
Nice to see a good review of the DMM Revolutions too. A very under-rated screw IMHO and one that's excellent in use in my experience.
My assumption is that Petzl will have taken the very well-known risk of galvanic corrosion into account - but only time will tell. It wouldn't put me off buying one though.
Nice to see a good review of the DMM Revolutions too. A very under-rated screw IMHO and one that's excellent in use in my experience.
In reply to Dave Williams:
The petzl ones sound brilliant, but how much is steel? My BD screws are all 10-15 years old and probably all 5-10 mms shorter than when new thanks to sharpening. I guess if you need to sharpen the Petzl ones you'd soon be through the steel into the alu?
The petzl ones sound brilliant, but how much is steel? My BD screws are all 10-15 years old and probably all 5-10 mms shorter than when new thanks to sharpening. I guess if you need to sharpen the Petzl ones you'd soon be through the steel into the alu?
In reply to TobyA:
The e-climb screws Ramon mentioned above, and that were [koff koff] 'inspiring' to Petzl, have, I believe, replaceable tips. Not sure if Petzl stole - sorry, paid homage to - this idea, though
> My BD screws are all 10-15 years old and probably all 5-10 mms shorter than when new thanks to sharpening. I guess if you need to sharpen the Petzl ones you'd soon be through the steel into the alu?
The e-climb screws Ramon mentioned above, and that were [koff koff] 'inspiring' to Petzl, have, I believe, replaceable tips. Not sure if Petzl stole - sorry, paid homage to - this idea, though
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In reply to UKC Gear:
Reverse angle thread:
Looks good in theory and practice for a straight pull out but in most cases surely the screw is loaded mainly in shear (even when screwed in slightly up hill as recommend)
Or am I missing something?
Reverse angle thread:
Looks good in theory and practice for a straight pull out but in most cases surely the screw is loaded mainly in shear (even when screwed in slightly up hill as recommend)
Or am I missing something?
In reply to TobyA:
Toby, they do distribute in UK, Joe Brown has them and other retailers too. I could have sent a bunch of new one too if they have asked. I don't really care, it just pains me that these reviews are pants basically
Toby, they do distribute in UK, Joe Brown has them and other retailers too. I could have sent a bunch of new one too if they have asked. I don't really care, it just pains me that these reviews are pants basically
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In reply to Ramon Marin:
Normally I would say send one to me and I'll review it! But, alas, after moving this far south, I'm not sure if I'll get to place ice screws this season. Well, fingers crossed for an icy snap in the Lakes or Wales still!
Normally I would say send one to me and I'll review it! But, alas, after moving this far south, I'm not sure if I'll get to place ice screws this season. Well, fingers crossed for an icy snap in the Lakes or Wales still!
In reply to JWB:
I thought it was now an accepted practice* to place screws head down 10°... so makes sense if the pull is more down and out rather than shear.
*does anyone 'actually' do this....
I thought it was now an accepted practice* to place screws head down 10°... so makes sense if the pull is more down and out rather than shear.
*does anyone 'actually' do this....
In reply to UKC Gear:
The reverse thread makes sense in theory, working like the wings on a dead man and spreading the load outwards. It appears to work in plaster on the grivel photo. It would be good to see the test replicated using ice and with load data.
The reverse thread makes sense in theory, working like the wings on a dead man and spreading the load outwards. It appears to work in plaster on the grivel photo. It would be good to see the test replicated using ice and with load data.
In reply to nufkin:
Yes it's a copy but hey, patents are expensive. And Petzl made them even lighter and look sexier so people willing to pay more. So fair play to them, a bit like the Dragons and camalot case. But E-climbs are as good as the laser, marginally heavier, but they don't corrode (I've had three seasons of use and they look as new, still haven't replaced my tips), and tips are easily replaceable and easy to buy online. £37 for 4 new tips, so basically you get 4 new screws for £37. I think it's just really hard to beat. The handle on the E-climb is better than Petzl as it's longer and winds quicker, and I like the soft rubber tip as you can bite them with your teeth with no danger of getting your lips glued. You have to remember E-Climb is all made in Barcelona by ice climbers, they don't do anything else, just awesome ice climbing kit light years ahead than everyone else, that's why they were ahead of Petzl in terms of design and innovation by 6 years
Yes it's a copy but hey, patents are expensive. And Petzl made them even lighter and look sexier so people willing to pay more. So fair play to them, a bit like the Dragons and camalot case. But E-climbs are as good as the laser, marginally heavier, but they don't corrode (I've had three seasons of use and they look as new, still haven't replaced my tips), and tips are easily replaceable and easy to buy online. £37 for 4 new tips, so basically you get 4 new screws for £37. I think it's just really hard to beat. The handle on the E-climb is better than Petzl as it's longer and winds quicker, and I like the soft rubber tip as you can bite them with your teeth with no danger of getting your lips glued. You have to remember E-Climb is all made in Barcelona by ice climbers, they don't do anything else, just awesome ice climbing kit light years ahead than everyone else, that's why they were ahead of Petzl in terms of design and innovation by 6 years
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In reply to Ramon Marin:
Don't forget to mention they sponsor the coolest climbers as well Ramon!
I'm still to actually see their tools in the flesh (metal?), but they do look very smart.
> You have to remember E-Climb is all made in Barcelona by ice climbers, they don't do anything else, just awesome ice climbing kit light years ahead than everyone else, that's why they were ahead of Petzl in terms of design and innovation by 6 years
Don't forget to mention they sponsor the coolest climbers as well Ramon!
I'm still to actually see their tools in the flesh (metal?), but they do look very smart.
In reply to TobyA:
haha, well if I was sponsored by someone else I would still say the same, you know me, ain't talk no bullshit There's a reason why I work with E-Climb, because they are ice climbers that want to do the best ice gear because no-one else is doing it (well until now that Petzl has borrowed a few ideas from the underdog), and believe me, their margins are so small that sometimes I wonder why they bother. But the answer is that they bother because they care about us, the ice climbers, and that's why I work with them. The E-climb comes on top in my opinion for value against design, and it sells pretty much at same prize as the obsolete DMM screw (winding with your thumb, really???). That's what I mean, great gear and reasonably accessible, durable, replaceable tips, great steel and Alu . Recently drytooling at the works all Petzl picks were being bent right left and center (famous Charlet steel???), so my E-climb Cryos save the day, great steel and great manufacturing. But people just don't know, which is fair as E-Climb don't have the money like Petzl or BD to promote themselves, so people end up buying what they see Ueli Steck using.
haha, well if I was sponsored by someone else I would still say the same, you know me, ain't talk no bullshit There's a reason why I work with E-Climb, because they are ice climbers that want to do the best ice gear because no-one else is doing it (well until now that Petzl has borrowed a few ideas from the underdog), and believe me, their margins are so small that sometimes I wonder why they bother. But the answer is that they bother because they care about us, the ice climbers, and that's why I work with them. The E-climb comes on top in my opinion for value against design, and it sells pretty much at same prize as the obsolete DMM screw (winding with your thumb, really???). That's what I mean, great gear and reasonably accessible, durable, replaceable tips, great steel and Alu . Recently drytooling at the works all Petzl picks were being bent right left and center (famous Charlet steel???), so my E-climb Cryos save the day, great steel and great manufacturing. But people just don't know, which is fair as E-Climb don't have the money like Petzl or BD to promote themselves, so people end up buying what they see Ueli Steck using.
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In reply to Ramon Marin:
I've just seen the E-Climb video. I'll have to be honest they look great at face value:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-ts=1422579428&x-yt-cl=85114404&v...
I've just seen the E-Climb video. I'll have to be honest they look great at face value:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-ts=1422579428&x-yt-cl=85114404&v...
In reply to Ramon Marin:
Quality of the gear aside, perhaps you should have disclosed your link with E-climb before getting straight on with slagging off the whole article. Otherwise it's all a bit shady.
Imagine the uproar if say someone from BD started posting on fora singing the praises of their kit without mentioning their employers?
Also, isn't the Joe Brown distribution deal a new thing? So considering that this article was probably a fair while in the making their reasoning for not including them still stands.
Quality of the gear aside, perhaps you should have disclosed your link with E-climb before getting straight on with slagging off the whole article. Otherwise it's all a bit shady.
Imagine the uproar if say someone from BD started posting on fora singing the praises of their kit without mentioning their employers?
Also, isn't the Joe Brown distribution deal a new thing? So considering that this article was probably a fair while in the making their reasoning for not including them still stands.
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In reply to UKC Gear:
I'd have thought ukc would have wanted to know whether the petzl's Kn rating was lower and whether the smaller threads reduce their strength before giving them best in test.
"We couldn't find a Kn rating but they are CE and UIAA certified"
"they are the smallest of all the threads on test. What this means about grip power we are unable to tell."
I'd have thought smaller threads would reduce their holding power, especially in poor ice (which isn't uncommon in this country!). I may be wrong but unless someone explains why they're just as strong I'd rather hang off something else.
I'd have thought ukc would have wanted to know whether the petzl's Kn rating was lower and whether the smaller threads reduce their strength before giving them best in test.
"We couldn't find a Kn rating but they are CE and UIAA certified"
"they are the smallest of all the threads on test. What this means about grip power we are unable to tell."
I'd have thought smaller threads would reduce their holding power, especially in poor ice (which isn't uncommon in this country!). I may be wrong but unless someone explains why they're just as strong I'd rather hang off something else.
Post edited at 20:20
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In reply to Ramon Marin:
Agree that the climb screws should be included as they are the original aluminium/steel tip screws with the added benefit of being cheaper and having replaceable tips. Also question the quality of Petzl's steel having replaced my wobbly head nomics with BD Fuels and compare the hardness and wear rate of the picks.
Having said that i think the new Laser screws are excellent as are the Nomics!
Agree that the climb screws should be included as they are the original aluminium/steel tip screws with the added benefit of being cheaper and having replaceable tips. Also question the quality of Petzl's steel having replaced my wobbly head nomics with BD Fuels and compare the hardness and wear rate of the picks.
Having said that i think the new Laser screws are excellent as are the Nomics!
In reply to jimtitt:
True, but some screws aren't CE/UIAA certified and will not hold 10 kN. Thinking of E-Climb's Klau 0 and 1.
True, but some screws aren't CE/UIAA certified and will not hold 10 kN. Thinking of E-Climb's Klau 0 and 1.
In reply to UKC Gear:
I tried the new Salewa Quick Screws last week in Hemsedal. They are brilliant, and I disagree with UKC on most of their dislikes. Here is my way:
On lead:
1) Unclip from harness
2) Flip open and slide hand down to screw's head (The way UKC found the most difficult)
3) Drive in a few turns taking advantage of the narrow head
4) Flip handle open and speed drive in
5) Clip rope and close handle
6) Climb on
Second:
1) Unscrew and leave it on the rope (till you are in a safer position)
2) Flip handle to its closed position and re-rack
3) Climb on
I think using a bandolier will make the on lead step 2) easier as you will be able to do the whole operation with the ice screw still racked.
We climbed with mixed racks as the 5 Salewas were popular within the group. On one climb I kept saving the Salewas for desperate situations - I topped out and found 4 of them still in the rack
I tried the new Salewa Quick Screws last week in Hemsedal. They are brilliant, and I disagree with UKC on most of their dislikes. Here is my way:
On lead:
1) Unclip from harness
2) Flip open and slide hand down to screw's head (The way UKC found the most difficult)
3) Drive in a few turns taking advantage of the narrow head
4) Flip handle open and speed drive in
5) Clip rope and close handle
6) Climb on
Second:
1) Unscrew and leave it on the rope (till you are in a safer position)
2) Flip handle to its closed position and re-rack
3) Climb on
I think using a bandolier will make the on lead step 2) easier as you will be able to do the whole operation with the ice screw still racked.
We climbed with mixed racks as the 5 Salewas were popular within the group. On one climb I kept saving the Salewas for desperate situations - I topped out and found 4 of them still in the rack
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In reply to Ramon Marin:
I was looking at these the other day. looked really nice and they do a stubby too. they are also a good few £ cheaper than BD or Petzl.
> Toby, they do distribute in UK, Joe Brown has them and other retailers too. I could have sent a bunch of new one too if they have asked. I don't really care, it just pains me that these reviews are pants basically
I was looking at these the other day. looked really nice and they do a stubby too. they are also a good few £ cheaper than BD or Petzl.
In reply to higherclimbingwales:
But they aren't flashy orange though. Everyone knows that how good you look when fully racked up is more important than the gear's strength and how well they work. Why else would you spend over £50 in a piece of gear if everyone in the car park don't instantly recognise you have the latest "light and fast™" gear?
But they aren't flashy orange though. Everyone knows that how good you look when fully racked up is more important than the gear's strength and how well they work. Why else would you spend over £50 in a piece of gear if everyone in the car park don't instantly recognise you have the latest "light and fast™" gear?
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In reply to Sir Stefan:
Hi, just to say I fully agree on your comments on the Salewa screws. I've just been out to Cogne with my usual winter climbing partner, taking a mix of our usual Grivel 360 and Helix, DMM Revolver and Black Diamond Express. I also took two 16cm Salewa's and I was very impressed, saving these for the pump sections.
Yes there are pro's and con's to every system, but I think the Salewa's took a bit of a negative bashing compared to others in the test.
Hi, just to say I fully agree on your comments on the Salewa screws. I've just been out to Cogne with my usual winter climbing partner, taking a mix of our usual Grivel 360 and Helix, DMM Revolver and Black Diamond Express. I also took two 16cm Salewa's and I was very impressed, saving these for the pump sections.
Yes there are pro's and con's to every system, but I think the Salewa's took a bit of a negative bashing compared to others in the test.
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In reply to jimd3006:
I haven't used the Salewas yet, but after a few positive comments and watching videos, I'm looking forward to try them out at some point. I just tried the new Grivels and they are indeed good, but heavy and hard to rack, could only have 2 on each carrytool biner.
I haven't used the Salewas yet, but after a few positive comments and watching videos, I'm looking forward to try them out at some point. I just tried the new Grivels and they are indeed good, but heavy and hard to rack, could only have 2 on each carrytool biner.
In reply to UKC Gear:
So whilst I'm not a massive fan of the Salewa's I can't say I thought they were hard to "open". All you do is knock the end of the piece of plastic against the ice when you have the head in your hand, and off you go. If I'm honest, I didn't get much chance to place it though as it racks so damn neatly, I forgot it was there and used the new Petzl laser steel I'd bought. Why THAT screw wasn't in the review is a good question too - as it's a better budget version to the light and perhaps a little more conventional. Used it parallel to a brand new BD turbo express and the Salewa and it was by far the fastest to place IMO. It starts superbly well, and as the hanger is small, it fits in a space almost as tight as a 360. And with the hanger being alu it's a little lighter than other steel screws. Top marks from me... If there is anything I would improve about the Salewa, it's the carabiner - for an expensive screw, it's a crap carabiner...
As for e-climb - we need a review. I was very very tempted to get these but simply couldn't find enough info about them. I'd be more than happy to do a review, only I'm just about to off back to blighty...
And for those worried about galvanic corrosion:
I suspect that the screws will be machined from 7075-t6 and when anodised they will be very inert. It is a fairly standard practice to combine 7075-t6 with a good grade of stainless like 316 or 17/4 ph - you'd better worry about all your DMM and WC cams too...
So whilst I'm not a massive fan of the Salewa's I can't say I thought they were hard to "open". All you do is knock the end of the piece of plastic against the ice when you have the head in your hand, and off you go. If I'm honest, I didn't get much chance to place it though as it racks so damn neatly, I forgot it was there and used the new Petzl laser steel I'd bought. Why THAT screw wasn't in the review is a good question too - as it's a better budget version to the light and perhaps a little more conventional. Used it parallel to a brand new BD turbo express and the Salewa and it was by far the fastest to place IMO. It starts superbly well, and as the hanger is small, it fits in a space almost as tight as a 360. And with the hanger being alu it's a little lighter than other steel screws. Top marks from me... If there is anything I would improve about the Salewa, it's the carabiner - for an expensive screw, it's a crap carabiner...
As for e-climb - we need a review. I was very very tempted to get these but simply couldn't find enough info about them. I'd be more than happy to do a review, only I'm just about to off back to blighty...
And for those worried about galvanic corrosion:
I suspect that the screws will be machined from 7075-t6 and when anodised they will be very inert. It is a fairly standard practice to combine 7075-t6 with a good grade of stainless like 316 or 17/4 ph - you'd better worry about all your DMM and WC cams too...
Post edited at 08:47
In reply to UKC Gear:
Anyone had personal experience of the alu screws sticking in wet ice? There's a long thread on MountainProject that's a bit concerning mentioning them sticking solid if water refreezes in the screw, supposedly due to the much greater heat conductivity of alu.
Anyone had personal experience of the alu screws sticking in wet ice? There's a long thread on MountainProject that's a bit concerning mentioning them sticking solid if water refreezes in the screw, supposedly due to the much greater heat conductivity of alu.
In reply to Ice Jedi:
Here it is:
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/petzl-laser-and-laser-lites-or-black-diamo...
I don't know how likely it is to happen, but I'm going to stick with just the two I have for now. I didn't personally have a problem with them in 3 weeks in the Canadian Rockies, they were our "panic screws" and placed better than BDs or Grivel 360s.
Here it is:
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/petzl-laser-and-laser-lites-or-black-diamo...
I don't know how likely it is to happen, but I'm going to stick with just the two I have for now. I didn't personally have a problem with them in 3 weeks in the Canadian Rockies, they were our "panic screws" and placed better than BDs or Grivel 360s.
In reply to UKC Gear:
The ice core issue is also mentioned on my blog. I noticed this problem back in August.
http://larsonweb.com/blog/?tag=petzl-laser-speed-light-review
The ice core issue is also mentioned on my blog. I noticed this problem back in August.
http://larsonweb.com/blog/?tag=petzl-laser-speed-light-review
In reply to Kai:
Just read your blog entry, and realised that similar happened once for me, but a hard turn using the hanger got through it. Sounds like others have had it happen where the screw completely stopped and had to be unscrewed, though.
Cheers for the link.
Just read your blog entry, and realised that similar happened once for me, but a hard turn using the hanger got through it. Sounds like others have had it happen where the screw completely stopped and had to be unscrewed, though.
Cheers for the link.
In reply to damowilk:
The petzyl screws appear to be the nomics of the screw world, well designed, a joy to use but not for very long...
Lights blue touch paper and ducks
The petzyl screws appear to be the nomics of the screw world, well designed, a joy to use but not for very long...
Lights blue touch paper and ducks
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