UKC

Having been to Bristol and getting rained out of the Gorge I visited a wall for the day. I can't remember its name, but it's pretty new and has red & white walls - very nice place and does wicked burgers too.
Anyhow, it struck me after registering for a place I'll (probably) visit only once, wouldn't it be possible to have a generic ID card and user database accessed by all climbing centres that we could sign up for? Wouldn't it be easier, cheaper (for customer & wall), more efficient and better governed if we could just walk in, scan the card and get on with the climbing?

Just a thought.

In reply to A Random Climber:

I've gotta say that's a fantastic idea , I have to carry a separate climbing wallet with all my membership cards in and even that's struggling now having one would be so much easier, don't know how they would implement it though

In reply to A Random Climber:

I was led to believe that such a system exists in Sweden, with coloured bands for whether you were allowed to lead climb or only top rope.
It'd be great to have something similar in this country, I think I've got at least six different cards for different walls around my own locality!.

In reply to A Random Climber:

Part of the purpose of registration faff is to make some money from the punters.

In reply to A Random Climber:

Apart from being wildly impractical, different walls have different standards, some don't even implement a belay test.

And can you imagine the problems that would cause with the data protection issues?

In reply to lowersharpnose:

I can't see how this is a money spinner - they don't charge you to register...?

It's a good idea, the only area that it would fall down would be site-specific bits (fire exits, any house rules different to the norm). You'd need a standardised assessment to ensure everyone agreed what 'safe' was.

In reply to Durbs:


A lot do!

In reply to Durbs:


Some charge an annual fee
Some charge a one off fee
Some don't charge.


Some walls do a very detailed 'assessment'
Some walls do a relatively sparse 'assessment'
Some walls do no 'assessment'.

And on an even simpler level, some walls have roped climbing, some don't. An assessment at The Climbing Works would have very little validity at The Foundry.

In reply to A Random Climber:
It would be an interesting idea, but I suspect that because of the variation in wall rules you get it would need a very heavy lock-down in terms of what you were allowed to do to make it more consistent, as no wall is going to slack their rules off. (part of registration at a wall is so you can review their rules, which may differ from other walls).

So probably Fig 8 only (not wishing to start that debate, but there are plenty of walls allowing other knots), no kids without adults, stark restrictions on supervision and a separate leading test.

That being my view I'd rather keep it as is.

Neil

In reply to Oceanrower:


I can't see that there would be any issue there, you give your consent for the information to be used to the necessary extent - it's not like they'd need to hold much data.

I'd suspect the real issue here is the business model, how much would it cost to implement and run? How would the initial development be managed/funded (i.e. who wants to risk their cash and or time to get this off the ground?) and how much would it cost to maintain and how would this be recouped? If we assume it's funded by climbing walls by subscription what would be the savings (or gains in terms of customer satisfaction, new custom etc) they would make to make subscribing worthwhile?

If it was set up by an entrepreneurial individual, chances are they'd want to make money out of it which squeezes the business model even further. If it was set up by a co-operative of climbing walls, then there would be less pressure to bleed profit out of subscribers but organisation and politics could be an issue.

I think it's a great idea, but I think it's economics, not data protection law, which stand in its way.

In reply to A Random Climber:

I've thought the same myself as a carrier of 12 or so climbing wall cards but I suspect there would be all sorts of caveats and problems.. like Westway actually do a belay test when registering and Big Rock want you to tie a knot and put a harness on but most walls just want you to fill in a sheet..Still perhaps the BMC could create a "gold standard" or similar wall user card that might exceed the requirements at some walls but meet all requirements though

In reply to Dave Reeve:

The BMC used to argue that competence testing at walls is un-necessary as it would not stop accidents. I assume they still have this view.

So it would be incongruous for the BMC to support your Gold Standard.

There is no consensus within the ABC over competence testing.

In reply to A Random Climber:

I too think it is a great idea, and as suggested perhaps the BMC could take the lead on harmonising the core requirements. This wouldn't stop walls adding specific additional conditions if they wanted.

Having worked in areas related to data protection I would like to add to what Oujmik said. The data protection act only obliges an organisation to take reasonable steps to protect the information, and to only use it for the intended purpose when the information was provided. So if you provided information in the full knowledge that it would be shared between every climbing wall in the country, there is no problem with all those walls sharing that information. It would only contravene the act if they then used that database of names and address it to try to flog you something else.

In reply to A Random Climber:

All good as long as someone else has to do it!
In the name of convenience we are very happy to get ourselves into all sorts of databases. I have no problem as I only ever go to 2 walls. One I know the number from memory and have not owned the card in the last 10 years.
I will sound more critical than I want but really: 1st world problem

In reply to A Random Climber:

I've always assumed the reason many (most?) walls don't do belay tests is because it may bring liability issues ("you signed this person off as being able to belay and they dropped their partner, therefore you are partly to blame"). Maybe I'm wrong?

However if it is the case imagine the possibilities for liability if you have a belay card: "You said this person was a competent climber but they came to our wall and they...."

On a separate note, a lot of walls (in the SE anyway) are getting rid of the card and just asking for your name. This is a massive improvement

In reply to A Random Climber:

It would definitely be up to the BMC to organise this but I never understood why walls don't work together more.

How amazing for the customer would it be if you could buy one membership that worked at all participating walls.

Especially in London where there are 10+ walls. It would give you loads more variety. There would be so many issues to iron out but I am sure loads would pay the premium for it.

In reply to climbwhenready:

Big Rock do have the cards (and I believe insist on them being used) but they do have the advantage that if you're a prepaid member (either direct debit or buy 10) you can scan yourself in without queueing (and get a nice "hello" from the computer).

Neil

In reply to Graeme Alderson:


The DAV would probably agree. They have done studies that show no correlation between climbing experience and accident rates, and don't do any kind of competence testing at their climbing walls.

In reply to A Random Climber:

There are always local rules, but I've found the only place in Sheffield to challenge my experience was Climbing Works, oddly.
The receptionist didn't believe my local wall had bouldering facilities (?)

In reply to Oujmik:


I was waiting for someone to mention this.

In reply to Neil Williams:


That would count me out then ! I've lost every card I've ever had , I've never needed one , at the works or the hanger I just walk in, say my number and pay - jobs done ! Can't get much quicker than that , no need to worry about forgetting or loosing cards . At awesome walls and other walls I just give my name and I'm straight in also !? Cards a waste of my time and pocket space

In reply to Colza:

AW have a scannable key fob, but I just note membership numbers in my phone.
Only card in my wallet is Edge, as I never get around to chucking it out.

In reply to A Random Climber:

Who gives a shit? Just answer a few questions, sign the paper and maybe even show them you're not a muppet and tie a knot. Not exactly a massive issue.

In reply to A Random Climber:

I was amazed when we went to a wall in Geneva, they asked if we knew what we were doing, we said yes, and they took our money. Not even a disclaimer to sign. Then they have a pile of lead ropes there for general use, we got odd look for bringing our own. All very relaxed, and I didn't notice any more bad practice then I do here.

In reply to SiGregory:


I've still got my Edge membership card which I haven't got the heart to throw away. Good times.

In reply to climbwhenready:


I totally agree. Our society seems obsessed with plastic cards and almost every business tries to foist one on you at every opportunity.

I suppose for indoor walls the card might be necessary if you have a subscription to a wall just to stop someone else using your name to gain entry for free. Though in reality even this seems unlikely as most climbers have no idea who has a subscription - except for close friends.

In reply to Oceanrower:


Never been to one that has a belay test!

In reply to A Random Climber:

I've often wondered why shops and stores don't get together to produce a universal loyalty card instead of having to have a separate one for every different shop. I think that would lead to much greater participation by consumers because it would be so much simpler. It's probably only a matter of time...

In reply to A Random Climber:

The system exists in Norway, called a brattkort.

Its cheap, the training is universal so everyone *should* be at the same standard. I think its a great idea, simple and efficient.

In reply to stp:

Isn't that basically what Nectar is?

Neil

In reply to stp:
And a lot of them take and store your photo digitally, so they can check.

(That's how the cheapo gyms prevent people using each others' PINs - well sort-of - they take a photo of you each time you enter using the CCTV, and if there is a usage pattern that looks like abuse they can verify that way if it is or not, possibly also randomly - I'd also assume there is an anti-passback thing such that the same code won't work for entry until it's been used for exit)

Neil

In reply to GarethSL:


The training?

In reply to deepsoup:
That should probably read test

Though training in relation to the card is I believe coordinated by the NKF, which should also be universal.

In reply to A Random Climber:

It's an interesting thought, I had a look into it a while back after visiting Sweden where they have a similar system, and in principle there's no reason why it couldn't work practically, most excuses about liablity etc. are based on assumptions and pretty much zero fact, often on the part of nervous centre managers... Ultimately if someone signs in in whatever way you still have a duty of care over them, even if they've climbed with you for years.

There are some other potential benefits, in that you could then monitor where people are climbing across the UK in a big brother stylee - which the various sporting government bodies would love as there's a dearth of useable statistics for rock climbing outwith the mountaineering umbrella. You'd also be able to tell (potentially) when one of your members had left you for the competition and potentially fix any problems... Possibly gets a bit draconian.

My only thought is in order to set it up it would have to be one keen group of walls with a tech background that has money to splash out on a lot of infrastructure for minimal gain - then you'd have to reshuffle everyones data since the year dot and get rid of duplicate records etc. quite a big job! The only way you could really recoup the costs would be by producing and selling the statistics and generating the database as a giant pool of contact information, I'd imagine you could get a good amount of revenue from that - but would that outweigh the benefits for the climber of being part of such a scheme?

Having said that, the way things are going it'll probably just be an app in a couple of years time when they start getting a bit more friendly to develop.

Of course that's all removing the politics from the equation - I can't imagine getting all the climbing walls in a region to get on side with the same thing, let alone across the UK. The BMC/MCofS/ABC etc. are all good but none have 100% of walls on board, so probably a non starter on that basis. whether it could work at all major walls is a different matter.

Sorry, went on a bit.
Oliver.

In reply to Neil Williams:


I'd always thought it was just Sainsbury's but there are a handful of other companies that have joined the scheme. It's still a very long way from a universal card though. No other supermarkets for instance so very limited. I shop at at least five so if they want my shopping stats I have to carry 5 cards with me - just for food shopping.


Well glad that doesn't happen at climbing walls. I think/hope most climbers realise they have to support their walls in order for them to keep going. Climbing is much more of a community based activity though compared to something like a general gym.

In reply to A Random Climber: the Norwegian Brattkort system works a treat and the IT overhead is minimal. One belay test, that's it, no need for a test at every wall.

In reply to stp:

I think most people shop at far fewer. I mostly use Tesco, sometimes Sainsbury's (though I mainly have a Nectar card because my energy is with British Gas). I also have a Waitrose card but that was only for free coffee as I rarely go there (and as they have now introduced a requirement to buy something to go with the coffee that isn't even much good I'll just go somewhere else and not do some food shopping while there now ).

I doubt there will ever be a truly universal one as Tesco don't want Sainsbury's seeing their shopper data and vice versa. It's the "big data" that's of value to them - they are effectively buying it from you with the discounts.


It does. Most walls using the Rock Gym Pro software (the ones I know of are Big Rock and the Castle, it's the one that uses the iPad based kiosks for registering) do take a photo of you and store it, it appears on the screen when you scan in.

Neil

In reply to wbo:


How long does it take to tie a not !? Is it really an issue !?

In reply to Colza:

I'm not sure it is. And you get used to the ABC forms (which I guess is why some walls throw something silly in to check you've read it!)

Neil

Having one registration system just seems like a simple efficiency to me. To work it probably has to be from a relatively neutral party and one that already has some authority, so probably the BMC or maybe even UKC??

The system could be simple, punters sign up for £1 or something (walls could take a cut of this to maintain their revenue scheme for new people, for any regulars that cost is negligible as it's a one off. That sign up gives a single membership number, acknowledges that you've said YES and NO to the relevant questions, and lists the walls you've been inducted to.

Walls sign up for free or maybe a small fee, so they can see basic statistics on the people who are inducted to their wall - they can either just tick 'yes' when someone rocks up or they can ask whatever they want and show you where the loos are before ticking yes. This way they get a simple web interface to manage their customers and entry. They must use something now already, but there is a cost of changeover.

For the punters: one number, easy to visit walls without getting more cards.
For the wall: simple system on a plate to manage membership, easy for new start up walls, opportunity to pay for extra statistics (where else your customers climb or something)
For the BMC: ADVERTISING! the cost can come out of whatever advertising budget they already have, they can try to upgrade 'wall registered' members to proper members. they get to immediately reach out to the large number of people who just play on plastic. they wont attract everyone into full membership, but they will get a percentage. they also have a good database of people to start from. your bmc number/card gets you into the wall.

note: places like TCA in Bristol can still have their separate system with a fingerprint scanner that just uses a lookup for fingerprint X = membership number and passes it to the database.

In reply to Oo:

Ignoring the "dystopian future" side of a fingerprint scanner, given that climbers are rather susceptible to finger injuries compared with the rest of the population, how well does that *actually* work?

Neil

In reply to Oo:
The BMC have almost nothing to do with climbing walls, and the ABC wouldn't be interested. Nothing in it for them.

And I don't really see what's in it for either the customer or or the wall.

From the walls point of view, they already have their own systems and trying to tie in a database with the many different software packages out there (RGP being, probably, the best known but there are others. Some not even climbing specific) would be a 'fun' excercise.

They have the advantage of knowing that the customers they have registered meet their own specific entry requirements whether that be demonstrating how to tie in, put on a harness, look at a few pretty pictures and spot what's wrong or (at a wall in Dorset) filling in a name and address.

They'd still need to check customers in either with a swipe card, a barcode, fingerprinting (see above, not come across that at a wall before!) or checking a picture against a monitor.

From a customer point of view, just how many walls can you conceivably belong to before this becomes a problem? I've just looked in my wallet and I've got 2 debit cards, one credit card, 2 work id cards, RYA membership, BCA membership, 8 wall entry cards, 2 caving club cards, 3 retail discount cards, 4 casino membership cards and about 20 business cards. That's before I start on driving licence, PASMA, 360 ticket etc. And, do you know what, they all fit and there's even room for a few more.

Sounds like a solution to a problem that really, REALLY doesn't exist.

In reply to Oo:

Or instead of all that registering to register that you've registered in a registered centre we could just leave it how it is , no need for a card and people just to tie a knot every now and then . Be a lot simpler !?

In reply to Neil Williams:


The fingerprint scanner on my iPhone usually works first time except after I've been climbing when I quite often have to enter a password. I guess just wear and tear on the skin from rubbing against holds for a couple of hours. Maybe iris scanning or face recognition would be better for a climbing wall

In reply to Oceanrower:

If you're expressing surprise that (a wall in Dorset) doesn't do any "competence testing", it may surprise you further to hear that many other walls also don't. Quite rightly so imo, it's quite pointless.

In reply to deepsoup:

But, surely, that's up to the wall to judge. Which is where this universal registering scheme falls down.

In the case of an accident "Not our fault, mate, we never said he was competent. You need to speak to XXX. They tested him" <shrugs shoulders, possibly whilst taking in a sharp breath>

In reply to Oceanrower:

Oh, I quite agree on that. It's one reason such a scheme would probably be unworkable. Those walls who feel "competence testing" is necessary are unlikely to be happy to delegate it to their competitors. And those who do not are not about to waste time and resources adopting it for the benefit of their competitors.


Since competence testing is not in fact necessary, nor even particularly helpful this at least shouldn't be a problem.

In case of an accident, who gives a shit whether or not he was asked to demonstrate tying a fig-8 in a piece of rope for the benefit of a bored receptionist six months ago?

In reply to A Random Climber:

Amazing idea; a good way of standardizing everything would be for the MTA/BMC to design a new course specifically aimed at wall entry which then gives you the universal entry ticket. Or, perhaps it could be an incentive of taking the CWA training at the very least? Complete training, gain a universal card letting you into loads of walls to get the consolidation sorted etc etc.

And before everyone comes along saying 'but I'm not interested in instructing...' then I encourage them to have a look at the requirements for the CWA training which aren't that difficult to complete for the majority of wall users.

Great idea altogether in my opinion.

In reply to Hans:

But I think it would be a huge barrier to entry for people to have to do (and pay for) a specific course rather than their mates being able to sign them in, teach them (according to the wall's rules) and then they get signed off when they are competent.

If it was an additional thing that could get you a carte blanche, no objection - but I think it would rapidly become the only option.

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:

Feeding trolls is never a good idea.

In reply to Neil Williams:

Wouldn't hurt to have two systems, one for people who just use the one wall, and one for people who travel to many different walls. CWA would be one way of getting the card. Just a thought.

In reply to Hans:

I'd say CWA training is an expensive way of just avoiding filling in a form or two. Though of course if you want to be an instructor it is the way to go.

Neil

In reply to A Random Climber: on the other hand it might not be a few forms you avoid. If you go to a fresh wall in countries with such a card you can't do roped climbing till you can demonstrate that you can lead, belay competently. And that means a test or a Brattkort.

In reply to A Random Climber:

Probably the easiest way to do this would be a secure API to access basic info from the BMC, plus an additional column in the database used by the climbing wall for the BMC membership number. You could then pull some of the data down from the BMC meaning that you didn't have to fill out the top half of the form...

Still not convinced that this solves any problems though. Different walls have different ways of discerning whether you're likely to kill yourself/someone else and this is dictated by the size of the centre and the preferences of the TA and centre managers. Also, annual membership charges (for the walls that charge them) are worth a considerable amount of money!

Having worked at a couple of walls, it's actually quite nice to chat to people who are new to the wall .

In reply to A Random Climber:

It can be done. Not a big thing. But climbing wall is a gym, a gym business at the core. It's meant to make money. Even best cash flows from all kind off courses, lessons and private instructors, a peace of the cake comes from membership fees. Especially it's a good income from people who come to the place just once and never show up again. Say they pay £12 to climb and another £5 for membership, spent an hour or two in the gym and leave. Perfect!