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Now I know it's not all about grade but about having fun. But for me a big part of climbing is pushing myself and aspiring to reach my target grade (on trad where i'll generally feel happy leading onsight at or around that grade on good days).
I feel really good on days where I've managed to insight stuff that I've felt unworthy of but managed to scratch my way up.
What about you ?
I feel really good on days where I've managed to insight stuff that I've felt unworthy of but managed to scratch my way up.
What about you ?
In reply to Ciderslider:
Firstly, what is your answer to your question? And secondly, I think it would be interesting if people are going to bother to answer to create some kind of poll/survey. Would be great to know, years climbing (total and that style), current grade, aim grade and aim time to reach this for each person and each style of climbing (with blanks as appropriate). I think maybe I just like data though.
Firstly, what is your answer to your question? And secondly, I think it would be interesting if people are going to bother to answer to create some kind of poll/survey. Would be great to know, years climbing (total and that style), current grade, aim grade and aim time to reach this for each person and each style of climbing (with blanks as appropriate). I think maybe I just like data though.
In reply to Ciderslider:
With those forearms surely crushing boulders in your bare hands is your weekend pastime? For me:
E5
8a
7C
VIII
though there are specfic routes/problems, these grades reflect them.
With those forearms surely crushing boulders in your bare hands is your weekend pastime? For me:
E5
8a
7C
VIII
though there are specfic routes/problems, these grades reflect them.
1
In reply to Robin Woodward:
Extensive research has uncovered an equation which relates 'n' the current grade, and 'a' the grade aspired to.
a = n + 1
Extensive research has uncovered an equation which relates 'n' the current grade, and 'a' the grade aspired to.
a = n + 1
23
In reply to Ciderslider:
I've always had a long term goal and a short term goal. Short term goal is always n+1, however, as it happens, right now my long term goals are also n+1 at E1 and 7a. I shall have to set new long term goals after that but that will only be the second time I've done so since I started climbing. I suspect it will be something like E4 and 7b.
I've always had a long term goal and a short term goal. Short term goal is always n+1, however, as it happens, right now my long term goals are also n+1 at E1 and 7a. I shall have to set new long term goals after that but that will only be the second time I've done so since I started climbing. I suspect it will be something like E4 and 7b.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Basically, though being comfortable at E2 trad and VI Winter would put most of the best climbs in the UK and beyond within your reach.
Alternatively, to paraphrase Hazel Findlay, the grade that would allow you to look at just about any rock in the world and find a way up it.
> a = n + 1
Basically, though being comfortable at E2 trad and VI Winter would put most of the best climbs in the UK and beyond within your reach.
Alternatively, to paraphrase Hazel Findlay, the grade that would allow you to look at just about any rock in the world and find a way up it.
1
In reply to Ciderslider:
Gradewise, n + 1 (where n is the grade I currently climb).
Although burning off your mates is always an inspiration.
> What about you ?
Gradewise, n + 1 (where n is the grade I currently climb).
Although burning off your mates is always an inspiration.
In reply to planetmarshall:
Although "comfortable at E2" and "look at just about any rock in the world and find a way up it" imply in all styles including those you're not comfortable with: for example "any rock in the world" in Hazel's Yosemite stamping ground is likely to involve a poorly protected wide crack at some point.
Comfortable at a grade in that sense then implies sometimes getting up something about two grades harder on a good day, in your strongest style, at your home crag etc.
Oh, and 7b+ and E4 btw.
Currently 7a and and very occasional/questionable/marginal E3
Although "comfortable at E2" and "look at just about any rock in the world and find a way up it" imply in all styles including those you're not comfortable with: for example "any rock in the world" in Hazel's Yosemite stamping ground is likely to involve a poorly protected wide crack at some point.
Comfortable at a grade in that sense then implies sometimes getting up something about two grades harder on a good day, in your strongest style, at your home crag etc.
Oh, and 7b+ and E4 btw.
Currently 7a and and very occasional/questionable/marginal E3
In reply to Ciderslider:
I'd like to be comfortable at VS and able to climb HVS. These are n+3, I'm comfortable at VDiff and able to climb Severe, although at the moment I'm being held back a *lot* by headgame. Now I've thought about it, I guess sorting out my lead head is my aim for 2015.
Style, the style where you climb from the bottom to the top. Preferably on a big mountain.
I'd like to be comfortable at VS and able to climb HVS. These are n+3, I'm comfortable at VDiff and able to climb Severe, although at the moment I'm being held back a *lot* by headgame. Now I've thought about it, I guess sorting out my lead head is my aim for 2015.
Style, the style where you climb from the bottom to the top. Preferably on a big mountain.
In reply to planetmarshall:
You think most of the best climbs in the world are E2 and below? If only...
I'd like to be able to reliably onsight E5 - I reckon that's about the level where you can look at any great crag in the UK and take your pick of plums.
> being comfortable at E2 trad and VI Winter would put most of the best climbs in the UK and beyond within your reach.
You think most of the best climbs in the world are E2 and below? If only...
I'd like to be able to reliably onsight E5 - I reckon that's about the level where you can look at any great crag in the UK and take your pick of plums.
Post edited at 13:11
7
In reply to Ciderslider:
I'd like to be good enough to enjoy the vast majority of routes available on my local crags. So somewhere around E3 6a is my target if I can ever avoid injury for long enough to get there.
I'd like to be good enough to enjoy the vast majority of routes available on my local crags. So somewhere around E3 6a is my target if I can ever avoid injury for long enough to get there.
In reply to Andy Moles:
I'd be tempted to agree, but obviously the higher grade you climb the more plums will be within reach; if I could reliably climb E5, I'm sure I'd be eyeing up those E6 plums just out of reach. Having said that everyone knows that E5 is where it's at!
> I'd like to be able to reliably onsight E5 - I reckon that's about the level where you can look at any great crag in the UK and take your pick of plums.
I'd be tempted to agree, but obviously the higher grade you climb the more plums will be within reach; if I could reliably climb E5, I'm sure I'd be eyeing up those E6 plums just out of reach. Having said that everyone knows that E5 is where it's at!
1
In reply to Andy Moles:
Well 'beyond' is a bit of a stretch, but I think E2 covers most of the routes I'm interested in climbing in the UK. Shibboleth, Prophecy of Drowning, The Steeple etc. I suspect E2 familiarity would probably get you up American Direct and the Swiss on the Capucin.
Of course that's just what's in my field of view at my current level. I imagine it will widen somewhat with more travel and experience.
> You think most of the best climbs in the world are E2 and below? If only...
Well 'beyond' is a bit of a stretch, but I think E2 covers most of the routes I'm interested in climbing in the UK. Shibboleth, Prophecy of Drowning, The Steeple etc. I suspect E2 familiarity would probably get you up American Direct and the Swiss on the Capucin.
Of course that's just what's in my field of view at my current level. I imagine it will widen somewhat with more travel and experience.
Post edited at 14:20
In reply to Ciderslider:
Depends entirely on how "bhag" I'm feeling.
In the medium term, I'd like to have a decent crack at onsighting some E5s, push into the upper half of the 7s (7b+ and beyond) onsight and climb more classic low 8s redpoint.
In the "bhag" world, relative solidity at E5, trying some E6s, onsight/flash of 8a and redpoint suitably inspiring 8b+. I'm aware that some of those grades have moved up more than others, not sure why.
Think big then apply hard work
Depends entirely on how "bhag" I'm feeling.
In the medium term, I'd like to have a decent crack at onsighting some E5s, push into the upper half of the 7s (7b+ and beyond) onsight and climb more classic low 8s redpoint.
In the "bhag" world, relative solidity at E5, trying some E6s, onsight/flash of 8a and redpoint suitably inspiring 8b+. I'm aware that some of those grades have moved up more than others, not sure why.
Think big then apply hard work
2
In reply to Ciderslider:
I'd settle for on sighting E1. Let's face it, an E grade is defo the grade most climbers will aspire too.
I'd settle for on sighting E1. Let's face it, an E grade is defo the grade most climbers will aspire too.
2
In reply to goose299:
I've been onsighting E2s reliably for about a decade, so I'll put my aspiration grade as onsighting E3s reliably. Should keep me busy for at least 10ys
I've been onsighting E2s reliably for about a decade, so I'll put my aspiration grade as onsighting E3s reliably. Should keep me busy for at least 10ys
In reply to Ciderslider:
I aspire to climb E5 Trad and 7a Sport mainly because that is what I have achieved in the past. Thing is I was only 55 at the time. At 66 I'm content to maintain my current standard of E2/3 and 6b although I have got my eye on a couple of 6c's in Kalymnos for when I visit in April. My problem is I hate "training". Even at the wall I just get mileage in rather than approaching it in a structured and disciplined way and I would rather watch paint dry than boulder indoors.
I aspire to climb E5 Trad and 7a Sport mainly because that is what I have achieved in the past. Thing is I was only 55 at the time. At 66 I'm content to maintain my current standard of E2/3 and 6b although I have got my eye on a couple of 6c's in Kalymnos for when I visit in April. My problem is I hate "training". Even at the wall I just get mileage in rather than approaching it in a structured and disciplined way and I would rather watch paint dry than boulder indoors.
1
In reply to Owen W-G:
Okay, let me rephrase it
Hitting the e grades is the grade most climbers will originally aspire too.
Afterall they are extreme.
Okay, let me rephrase it
Hitting the e grades is the grade most climbers will originally aspire too.
Afterall they are extreme.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Pretty much sums it up. n+1 for short term goals, n+2 for long term goals. Never changes.
In reply to planetmarshall:
"Basically, though being comfortable at E2 trad and VI Winter would put most of the best climbs in the UK and beyond within your reach."
- This is delusional. It won't even let you go near the good side of the leap.
> Extensive research has uncovered an equation which relates 'n' the current grade, and 'a' the grade aspired to.
> a = n + 1
> a = n + 1
Pretty much sums it up. n+1 for short term goals, n+2 for long term goals. Never changes.
In reply to planetmarshall:
"Basically, though being comfortable at E2 trad and VI Winter would put most of the best climbs in the UK and beyond within your reach."
- This is delusional. It won't even let you go near the good side of the leap.
Post edited at 15:17
5
1
In reply to abarro81:
It's not delusional, it's purely subjective. I look at climbs at around the E2 range as climbs beyond that grade don't really fall on my radar. For you it'll be different.
I have no idea what that means.
> - This is delusional.
It's not delusional, it's purely subjective. I look at climbs at around the E2 range as climbs beyond that grade don't really fall on my radar. For you it'll be different.
> It won't even let you go near the good side of the leap.
I have no idea what that means.
1
1
In reply to planetmarshall:
E2 is certainly a particularly gloriously rich grade in the Scottish mountains (definitely far better than E1)......... but so is E3, and probably E5 too......
> I think E2 covers most of the routes I'm interested in climbing in the UK. Shibboleth, Prophecy of Drowning, The Steeple etc.
E2 is certainly a particularly gloriously rich grade in the Scottish mountains (definitely far better than E1)......... but so is E3, and probably E5 too......
In reply to abarro81:
My interpretation of this phrase was that if you've put in the effort to get to E2 or VI (and say 7a,) then there is nothing, apart from time and mental determination stopping you going on to E5, VIII and 7c/8a, which certainly do put most of the best climbs in the country within reach.
My interpretation of this phrase was that if you've put in the effort to get to E2 or VI (and say 7a,) then there is nothing, apart from time and mental determination stopping you going on to E5, VIII and 7c/8a, which certainly do put most of the best climbs in the country within reach.
In reply to planetmarshall:
Pembroke should definitely, definitely be on every climber's radar! And you really, really want to be climbing E3 in Pembroke.
> I have no idea what that means.
Pembroke should definitely, definitely be on every climber's radar! And you really, really want to be climbing E3 in Pembroke.
4
In reply to Cardi:
Well 'best climbs in the country' is always going to be contentious and depends on what you're interested in climbing. It does seem to me that at least as far as multipitch mountain routes are concerned, E2 seems to be a 'gloriously rich grade', as Robert puts it. There's also the fact that, personally, E2 is attainable for me in the immediate future so those are naturally the climbs I'm looking at.
Give it a couple of years and I'll no doubt think differently. Or maybe I'll start preferring technical gritstone challenges...
Well 'best climbs in the country' is always going to be contentious and depends on what you're interested in climbing. It does seem to me that at least as far as multipitch mountain routes are concerned, E2 seems to be a 'gloriously rich grade', as Robert puts it. There's also the fact that, personally, E2 is attainable for me in the immediate future so those are naturally the climbs I'm looking at.
Give it a couple of years and I'll no doubt think differently. Or maybe I'll start preferring technical gritstone challenges...
In reply to Cardi:
Now that really might be delusional!
> My interpretation of this phrase was that if you've put in the effort to get to E2 or VI (and say 7a,) then there is nothing, apart from time and mental determination stopping you going on to E5, VIII and 7c/8a.
Now that really might be delusional!
In reply to Cardi:
So you're saying you agree with Plantemarshall because when he said "being comfortable at E2 trad and VI Winter would put most of the best climbs in the UK and beyond within your reach" he actually meant "though being comfortable at E5 trad, VIII and 7c/8a would put most of the best climbs in the UK and beyond within your reach"?
> My interpretation of this phrase was that if you've put in the effort to get to E2 or VI (and say 7a,) then there is nothing, apart from time and mental determination stopping you going on to E5, VIII and 7c/8a, which certainly do put most of the best climbs in the country within reach.
So you're saying you agree with Plantemarshall because when he said "being comfortable at E2 trad and VI Winter would put most of the best climbs in the UK and beyond within your reach" he actually meant "though being comfortable at E5 trad, VIII and 7c/8a would put most of the best climbs in the UK and beyond within your reach"?
In reply to climbwhenready:
I've always thought "reasonably solid at HVS" would be a good place to be. This is probably n+2 envy as well, but it always feels like most places you could end up in the UK will have decent climbing at VS to HVS, which isn't necessarily true at S to HS.
And any harder than E2 is just showing off.
> I'd like to be comfortable at VS and able to climb HVS.
I've always thought "reasonably solid at HVS" would be a good place to be. This is probably n+2 envy as well, but it always feels like most places you could end up in the UK will have decent climbing at VS to HVS, which isn't necessarily true at S to HS.
And any harder than E2 is just showing off.
3
In reply to Ramblin dave:
Certainly in the Peak this is true, but last year I declined a trip to Mingulay and Pabbay as I didn't think it was worth going if I couldn't climb at least E2 ( Hence the E2 envy ). I'd say there are quite a few places that don't have many options outwith the Extremes.
> ... it always feels like most places you could end up in the UK will have decent climbing at VS to HVS,
Certainly in the Peak this is true, but last year I declined a trip to Mingulay and Pabbay as I didn't think it was worth going if I couldn't climb at least E2 ( Hence the E2 envy ). I'd say there are quite a few places that don't have many options outwith the Extremes.
In reply to Ramblin dave:
Though you would be pretty much writing off all the best sea cliff climbing. The odd decent route maybe.
> Most places you could end up in the UK will have decent climbing at VS to HVS.
Though you would be pretty much writing off all the best sea cliff climbing. The odd decent route maybe.
Post edited at 16:08
In reply to Robert Durran:
I don't mean that you'd have all the best stuff, or even most of it. Just that you'd have some good stuff in most places. Gogarth, Pembroke, South Devon and Lundy, for instance, all seem to have some classics in those grades and rather limited good stuff below them.
I guess there might be a whole other set of places (like Pabbay and Mingulay) that are currently far enough out of my league that they don't even register, though.
I found that the possibilities in the Peak start to open out a lot at HS, and a bit more at VS.
> Though you would be pretty much writing off all the best sea cliff climbing. The odd decent route maybe.
I don't mean that you'd have all the best stuff, or even most of it. Just that you'd have some good stuff in most places. Gogarth, Pembroke, South Devon and Lundy, for instance, all seem to have some classics in those grades and rather limited good stuff below them.
I guess there might be a whole other set of places (like Pabbay and Mingulay) that are currently far enough out of my league that they don't even register, though.
I found that the possibilities in the Peak start to open out a lot at HS, and a bit more at VS.
Post edited at 16:25
In reply to Ciderslider:
Onsight E6
Head point E8
Font 8A
May as well aim high if it's an aspiration. N+1 is hardly ambitious.
Onsight E6
Head point E8
Font 8A
May as well aim high if it's an aspiration. N+1 is hardly ambitious.
In reply to Ramblin dave:
I would probably say that climbing HVS opens up about twice as many brilliant experiences as just up to VS. It's the first sort of 'landmark grade' in my eyes (the next being E2).
I would probably say that climbing HVS opens up about twice as many brilliant experiences as just up to VS. It's the first sort of 'landmark grade' in my eyes (the next being E2).
3
In reply to Michael Gordon:
Define "landmark grade". I'm intrigued why some qualify and some don't.
> I would probably say that climbing HVS opens up about twice as many brilliant experiences as just up to VS. It's the first sort of 'landmark grade' in my eyes (the next being E2).
Define "landmark grade". I'm intrigued why some qualify and some don't.
In reply to Cardi:
Hmmm. That suggests that getting to E2/VI in the first place is the harder bit! No way. Many will plateau at or around E2.
In one of those UKC 'landmark grade' articles I think Steve McClure said that "E5 is like flying to the moon compared to E1".
> My interpretation of this phrase was that if you've put in the effort to get to E2 or VI (and say 7a,) then there is nothing, apart from time and mental determination stopping you going on to E5, VIII and 7c/8a
Hmmm. That suggests that getting to E2/VI in the first place is the harder bit! No way. Many will plateau at or around E2.
In one of those UKC 'landmark grade' articles I think Steve McClure said that "E5 is like flying to the moon compared to E1".
In reply to Robert Durran:
It's purely subjective of course. It's just that which in your mind you think of as a 'landmark', whether through a perceived change in the nature/severity of the challenge involved or due to a good number of classic routes which you aspired to sitting at that grade.
It's purely subjective of course. It's just that which in your mind you think of as a 'landmark', whether through a perceived change in the nature/severity of the challenge involved or due to a good number of classic routes which you aspired to sitting at that grade.
In reply to Ramblin dave:
Yes, I feel that HVS would leave a lot of routes out, for sure, but most mountain crags would be in. That's the place I want to be.
When I get there I'll want to be somewhere entirely different
> I've always thought "reasonably solid at HVS" would be a good place to be. This is probably n+2 envy as well, but it always feels like most places you could end up in the UK will have decent climbing at VS to HVS, which isn't necessarily true at S to HS.
Yes, I feel that HVS would leave a lot of routes out, for sure, but most mountain crags would be in. That's the place I want to be.
When I get there I'll want to be somewhere entirely different
In reply to Ciderslider:
When I first started climbing I considered sport 8a to be a significant grade/life goal and it's always been in my mind. Didn't really believe I'd get to the point where I'd be picking out 8a lines to get on this summer.
However, I don't have any particular grade ambition with bouldering or trad, despite being totally psyched on both and doing more in these disciplines than sport. Rather, I have routes and problems that I would like to do, many of which fall in around Font 7C and E5/6.
When I first started climbing I considered sport 8a to be a significant grade/life goal and it's always been in my mind. Didn't really believe I'd get to the point where I'd be picking out 8a lines to get on this summer.
However, I don't have any particular grade ambition with bouldering or trad, despite being totally psyched on both and doing more in these disciplines than sport. Rather, I have routes and problems that I would like to do, many of which fall in around Font 7C and E5/6.
1
In reply to Ciderslider:
Mark, interestingly your text always contains the answer to your climbing problems. Stop feeling unworthy. You've as much right to be doing your routes as anyone else. Just concentrate on climbing as well as you can - which is pretty well - irrespective of grade.
For trad, the most important thing has always seemed mileage. Maybe it's building and reinforcing neural pathways; I don't know. But with mileage, you relax, you get a flow and suddenly you're doing your dream routes and loving them.
And mileage is your best friend on those nasty horrors that ensnare all of us sooner or later, when we have to dig deep just to survive the day. Often they're not hard routes, just normal ones, maybe in terrible condition, ticking all those boxes you don't want ticked (loose, wet, committing, runout, etc). But they're the real test of character. And they're the routes that are imprinted on your memory forever.
Mick
> I feel really good on days where I've managed to insight stuff that I've felt unworthy of but managed to scratch my way up.
> 'where I've managed to insight stuff...'
Mark, interestingly your text always contains the answer to your climbing problems. Stop feeling unworthy. You've as much right to be doing your routes as anyone else. Just concentrate on climbing as well as you can - which is pretty well - irrespective of grade.
For trad, the most important thing has always seemed mileage. Maybe it's building and reinforcing neural pathways; I don't know. But with mileage, you relax, you get a flow and suddenly you're doing your dream routes and loving them.
And mileage is your best friend on those nasty horrors that ensnare all of us sooner or later, when we have to dig deep just to survive the day. Often they're not hard routes, just normal ones, maybe in terrible condition, ticking all those boxes you don't want ticked (loose, wet, committing, runout, etc). But they're the real test of character. And they're the routes that are imprinted on your memory forever.
Mick
5
In reply to Mick Ward:
Take note of everything Mick has said. He speaks the truth
Milage will get you miles with climbing.
I climb with a right ramshackle bunch of delinquents, none of us are what I'd call naturally gifted but we've all put serious hours into climbing. We're talking multiple days a week all year round. And we're all climbing in the low to mid E grades, with higher aspirations.
Take note of everything Mick has said. He speaks the truth
Milage will get you miles with climbing.
I climb with a right ramshackle bunch of delinquents, none of us are what I'd call naturally gifted but we've all put serious hours into climbing. We're talking multiple days a week all year round. And we're all climbing in the low to mid E grades, with higher aspirations.
In reply to Ciderslider:
My profile has my actual grades (I don't count Chalkstorm as E4 - just a happy aberration). Aspiration would be E3 - because it would let me really enjoy E2.
My profile has my actual grades (I don't count Chalkstorm as E4 - just a happy aberration). Aspiration would be E3 - because it would let me really enjoy E2.
In reply to Mick Ward:
Spot on Mick. I started being happy scrabbling up things and dogging if required but I was only kidding myself. The best ascents are done at my limit but in good style when I'm climbing confidently but carefully aware in a 'zone'. I find this easiest to achieve on holiday on big routes. I also love working a problem and watching the body engrams develop from seeming desperation to ultimate success in good style.
Spot on Mick. I started being happy scrabbling up things and dogging if required but I was only kidding myself. The best ascents are done at my limit but in good style when I'm climbing confidently but carefully aware in a 'zone'. I find this easiest to achieve on holiday on big routes. I also love working a problem and watching the body engrams develop from seeming desperation to ultimate success in good style.
In reply to planetmarshall:
I was only climbing vs when I signed up for Mingulay trip in May. I've now led a few HVS's and will have climbed a few E1's before I go. (That's my personal mantra anyway - whether it happens like that... We'll have to see!)
I was only climbing vs when I signed up for Mingulay trip in May. I've now led a few HVS's and will have climbed a few E1's before I go. (That's my personal mantra anyway - whether it happens like that... We'll have to see!)
In reply to Ciderslider:
For me, it's not so much about a specific grade, more about a progression. I want that sensation of pushing further, being at my limit - this does often correlate with grade progression, but is not defined by it.
So really, I'd like to climb as hard as I can. But it's not about the number, it's about the feeling.
For me, it's not so much about a specific grade, more about a progression. I want that sensation of pushing further, being at my limit - this does often correlate with grade progression, but is not defined by it.
So really, I'd like to climb as hard as I can. But it's not about the number, it's about the feeling.
1
In reply to Ciderslider:
My lifetime goals have always been redpoint/headpoint of 8a/E6. I think I need to achieve these in the next couple of years. One requires me to overcome the fear, the other to regain and surpass my fitness of 5 years ago. Other goals are to get steady on mid e grades with onsights of e4 and ground up e5.
My lifetime goals have always been redpoint/headpoint of 8a/E6. I think I need to achieve these in the next couple of years. One requires me to overcome the fear, the other to regain and surpass my fitness of 5 years ago. Other goals are to get steady on mid e grades with onsights of e4 and ground up e5.
In reply to Ciderslider:
Despite moving on from the grade 30 years ago, one day I'd like to climb VS with style!
Despite moving on from the grade 30 years ago, one day I'd like to climb VS with style!
In reply to Ciderslider:
Top-rope/shunt E3. Flash (head point?) E2 this year. Onsight E1. And aspire to avoid soloing anything, though this will be a tough one to attain!
Felt good to write down/commit to/articulate a goal.
Top-rope/shunt E3. Flash (head point?) E2 this year. Onsight E1. And aspire to avoid soloing anything, though this will be a tough one to attain!
Felt good to write down/commit to/articulate a goal.
In reply to Ciderslider:
E5. By popping down to Lower Sharpnose and basking in the hollow glory of a massively overgraded route. It certainly worked for E3 and E4!
E5. By popping down to Lower Sharpnose and basking in the hollow glory of a massively overgraded route. It certainly worked for E3 and E4!
In reply to Monk:
You mentioned ground up... Please excuse my ignorance but Ground up = climbing up, placing gear, climbing down, untying potentially/resting, climbing up?
I never used to 'get' head pointing, but now totally do. Now with ground up I'm intrigued... Is it a style one would have pre-chosen to employ? Or is it generally a 'ermmm... This isn't going to happen, let's climb down to ground' and then go for it again?
You mentioned ground up... Please excuse my ignorance but Ground up = climbing up, placing gear, climbing down, untying potentially/resting, climbing up?
I never used to 'get' head pointing, but now totally do. Now with ground up I'm intrigued... Is it a style one would have pre-chosen to employ? Or is it generally a 'ermmm... This isn't going to happen, let's climb down to ground' and then go for it again?
In reply to sea_lene:
It's a nice way of saying "falling off".
> You mentioned ground up... Please excuse my ignorance but Ground up = climbing up, placing gear, climbing down, untying potentially/resting, climbing up?
It's a nice way of saying "falling off".
1
In reply to sea_lene:
As Jon said, ground-up just means falling off, lowering down, pulling the ropes and trying again. It's somewhere halfway(?) between onsighting and headpointing. To be honest, I would always be going for the onsight (knowing that it is far from guaranteed) when I started out, but would deliberately choose a route that has decent gear.
> You mentioned ground up... Please excuse my ignorance but Ground up = climbing up, placing gear, climbing down, untying potentially/resting, climbing up?
> I never used to 'get' head pointing, but now totally do. Now with ground up I'm intrigued... Is it a style one would have pre-chosen to employ? Or is it generally a 'ermmm... This isn't going to happen, let's climb down to ground' and then go for it again?
As Jon said, ground-up just means falling off, lowering down, pulling the ropes and trying again. It's somewhere halfway(?) between onsighting and headpointing. To be honest, I would always be going for the onsight (knowing that it is far from guaranteed) when I started out, but would deliberately choose a route that has decent gear.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
ie A nice way of saying "fail".
> (In reply to sea_lene)
>
> It's a nice way of saying "falling off".
>
> It's a nice way of saying "falling off".
ie A nice way of saying "fail".
In reply to Ciderslider:
E6, 8a, V10. I tend to combine aspirations for a certain grade with a certain route though to give me something tangible to train for. I broke into E3 with Silly Arete which I got totally psyched for. Its probably Lord and Raindogs that would fill that box.
E6, 8a, V10. I tend to combine aspirations for a certain grade with a certain route though to give me something tangible to train for. I broke into E3 with Silly Arete which I got totally psyched for. Its probably Lord and Raindogs that would fill that box.
In reply to sea_lene:
Ground up generally = going for the onsight, blowing it, and correcting my mistake next go after swearing at myself for a while on the ground!
Ground up generally = going for the onsight, blowing it, and correcting my mistake next go after swearing at myself for a while on the ground!
In reply to Robert Durran:
TBF you could see it as "trying and failing" where headpoint just means "not even trying".
Personally I'm aware that my biggest issue is psyching myself out before even getting on the route, so I kind of see occasionally falling off or resting on gear as a positive sign that I'm actually trying stuff that's hard enough. As per Andy K - "if you aren't failing, you aren't trying hard enough."
> ie A nice way of saying "fail".
TBF you could see it as "trying and failing" where headpoint just means "not even trying".
Personally I'm aware that my biggest issue is psyching myself out before even getting on the route, so I kind of see occasionally falling off or resting on gear as a positive sign that I'm actually trying stuff that's hard enough. As per Andy K - "if you aren't failing, you aren't trying hard enough."
In reply to Ciderslider:
E5 and 8a+ would make me pretty happy and open up some of the best sport and trad climbing in the world. I'm sure when I get there I'll be looking at n+1 but those grades would get me up the stuff I'm most inspired by.
E5 and 8a+ would make me pretty happy and open up some of the best sport and trad climbing in the world. I'm sure when I get there I'll be looking at n+1 but those grades would get me up the stuff I'm most inspired by.
Post edited at 23:48
In reply to Ciderslider: FWIW 8a redpoint.
However although I'm pysched for it, what I really, really aspire to are specific routes (e.g. NIAD, Beyond Good & Evil) which are not easily captured by a simple numeric grade.
However although I'm pysched for it, what I really, really aspire to are specific routes (e.g. NIAD, Beyond Good & Evil) which are not easily captured by a simple numeric grade.
In reply to Robert Durran:
You mean me,
Aspiration 1 = E15 by Easter ha-ha-ha.
Aspiration 2 = Leading Great Wall on Cloggy. Never going to happen.
Aspiration 3 = not falling into a crevasse and dying.
> Now that really might be delusional!
You mean me,
Aspiration 1 = E15 by Easter ha-ha-ha.
Aspiration 2 = Leading Great Wall on Cloggy. Never going to happen.
Aspiration 3 = not falling into a crevasse and dying.
In reply to Ciderslider:
Not a grade exactly, but I've always wanted to tick the John Allen Peak grit routes. Some I led back in the day, and the plan this year is ground up with mats wherever poss. I guess V7/8 should fit the bill for the aspirational grade. IMHO the best 'set' of routes in the Peak, and hence by implication, anywhere...
I'm 55 next month so ita a cracking goal as long as my knees hold out
Not a grade exactly, but I've always wanted to tick the John Allen Peak grit routes. Some I led back in the day, and the plan this year is ground up with mats wherever poss. I guess V7/8 should fit the bill for the aspirational grade. IMHO the best 'set' of routes in the Peak, and hence by implication, anywhere...
I'm 55 next month so ita a cracking goal as long as my knees hold out
Post edited at 09:10
In reply to Ramblin dave:
Fixed the first bit. I agree with you though - my thoughts are that the challenge (often encapsulated by the grade) is more important than the grade itself. So a ground-up / headpoint at one's limit will often feel much more satisfying than an onsight with a little still in hand.
> TBF you could see it as "trying and failing to onsight" where headpoint just means "not even trying to onsight".
> I kind of see occasionally falling off or resting on gear as a positive sign that I'm actually trying stuff that's hard enough. As per Andy K - "if you aren't failing, you aren't trying hard enough."
Fixed the first bit. I agree with you though - my thoughts are that the challenge (often encapsulated by the grade) is more important than the grade itself. So a ground-up / headpoint at one's limit will often feel much more satisfying than an onsight with a little still in hand.
1
In reply to Ciderslider:
8a sport long term goal.
For this summer it's 7a sport. A multipitch 7a route aswell.
8a sport long term goal.
For this summer it's 7a sport. A multipitch 7a route aswell.
In reply to paul_in_cumbria:
Somehow that seems so lame compared to a beta dog up an undergraded first E2
Somehow that seems so lame compared to a beta dog up an undergraded first E2
Post edited at 10:35
1
In reply to Offwidth:
Nice, but not aspirational given the amount of beta dog I carried out on Allen/Bancroft classics in the late 70s early 80s! I'm trying to atone for my sins.
Problem is, being strong doesn't help on these routes, you've got to be able to climb. Well.
> Somehow that seems so lame compared to a beta dog up an undergraded first E2
Nice, but not aspirational given the amount of beta dog I carried out on Allen/Bancroft classics in the late 70s early 80s! I'm trying to atone for my sins.
Problem is, being strong doesn't help on these routes, you've got to be able to climb. Well.
In reply to anyone:
I find it interesting that people have posted the following targets:
E1 and 7a
E5 and 7a
E5 and 8a
I'm not implying any criticism of these different goals, just that it's interesting. Obviously there could be stylistic differences in the goals but even so it's quite a variation.
Anyway n+1 seems like the ideal short term answer...
I find it interesting that people have posted the following targets:
E1 and 7a
E5 and 7a
E5 and 8a
I'm not implying any criticism of these different goals, just that it's interesting. Obviously there could be stylistic differences in the goals but even so it's quite a variation.
Anyway n+1 seems like the ideal short term answer...
1
In reply to Ramblin dave:
I almost agree
I almost agree. Yes, Ground up is trying and failing and I've chosen this approach (I knew I was highly likely to fall off, but felt it was safe to do so).
But I'm shunting two E2's which are both quite different and both some distance off what I could lead just now. I'll be delighted to lead he, before 2015 is out. Headpointing routes far enough out of reach of current ability is definitely not "not even trying". My sore muscles, fingers and heavy breathing attest to it!
I almost agree
> TBF you could see it as "trying and failing" where headpoint just means "not even trying".
I almost agree. Yes, Ground up is trying and failing and I've chosen this approach (I knew I was highly likely to fall off, but felt it was safe to do so).
But I'm shunting two E2's which are both quite different and both some distance off what I could lead just now. I'll be delighted to lead he, before 2015 is out. Headpointing routes far enough out of reach of current ability is definitely not "not even trying". My sore muscles, fingers and heavy breathing attest to it!
In reply to sea_lene:
I'd say ground-up is trying and failing to onsight, but eventually succeeding in good style.
I'd say ground-up is trying and failing to onsight, but eventually succeeding in good style.
2
In reply to Ciderslider:
Given my age, my inability to stop eating cake and my accumulating/ed injuries I don't think I'll ever surpass the grades I've done before but if I could match my sport on-sight, sport red-point and trad on-sight grades again I'd be happy. If I do the same for bouldering, alpine and winter that'd be a bonus but even less likely.
Given my age, my inability to stop eating cake and my accumulating/ed injuries I don't think I'll ever surpass the grades I've done before but if I could match my sport on-sight, sport red-point and trad on-sight grades again I'd be happy. If I do the same for bouldering, alpine and winter that'd be a bonus but even less likely.
1
In reply to Ciderslider:
At the moment long term goal is to get to: 8a sport in a day and font 8A in however long. I dunno what my trad climbing ambitions are, cause I don't do it enough to know what a sensible ambition is - E5?
At the moment long term goal is to get to: 8a sport in a day and font 8A in however long. I dunno what my trad climbing ambitions are, cause I don't do it enough to know what a sensible ambition is - E5?
In reply to Nik Jennings:
E5 and 9a...
Andy F
> I find it interesting that people have posted the following targets:
> E1 and 7a
> E5 and 7a
> E5 and 8a
E5 and 9a...
Andy F
1
In reply to Nik Jennings:
Probably reflects a variation in the appetite for risk among climbers.
> I find it interesting that people have posted the following targets:
> E1 and 7a
> E5 and 7a
> E5 and 8a
> E5 and 7a
> E5 and 8a
Probably reflects a variation in the appetite for risk among climbers.
1
In reply to planetmarshall:
It still seems a hell of a variation. Even discounting AndyF's aspirations
It still seems a hell of a variation. Even discounting AndyF's aspirations
In reply to planetmarshall:
Or is it about style. I haven't checked the original posts, but maybe E1/7a and E5/8a imply trad onsight and sport redpoint, whereas E5/7a implies the sport grade is onsight.
> Probably reflects a variation in the appetite for risk among climbers.
Or is it about style. I haven't checked the original posts, but maybe E1/7a and E5/8a imply trad onsight and sport redpoint, whereas E5/7a implies the sport grade is onsight.
In reply to Nik Jennings:
Interesting point. I half expected someone to comment or at least raise an eyebrow when I posted that I wanted E6 and 8a. I've always had a huge disparity between trad and sport, which interestingly has reduced dramatically over the last few as I lost fitness due to having kids. My trad grade has stayed the same but I think my sport grade had gone through the floor. Still, the disparity in my grade ambitions is all about the fear/risk. The E6s I know are all on grit or Avon where most routes that grade are very bold but relatively easy, so I want a lot in hand. If I found the right route at higher grades, I would definitely be tempted.
> It still seems a hell of a variation. Even discounting AndyF's aspirations
Interesting point. I half expected someone to comment or at least raise an eyebrow when I posted that I wanted E6 and 8a. I've always had a huge disparity between trad and sport, which interestingly has reduced dramatically over the last few as I lost fitness due to having kids. My trad grade has stayed the same but I think my sport grade had gone through the floor. Still, the disparity in my grade ambitions is all about the fear/risk. The E6s I know are all on grit or Avon where most routes that grade are very bold but relatively easy, so I want a lot in hand. If I found the right route at higher grades, I would definitely be tempted.
In reply to Monk:
Like I said I'm certainly not trying to imply any sort of criticism or start some willy waving sport-climbers-are-wimps-trad-is-piss thread. People can aspire to whatever they want, and the very best of luck to them. I just find the variance interesting.
Like I said I'm certainly not trying to imply any sort of criticism or start some willy waving sport-climbers-are-wimps-trad-is-piss thread. People can aspire to whatever they want, and the very best of luck to them. I just find the variance interesting.
In reply to Nik Jennings:
Totally agree, I find it interesting too. I just thought I'd share my thinking on it. I've always been slightly in awe of people who can climb trad close to their sport grade. This is when the effects of psychology in climbing become really obvious factors.
Totally agree, I find it interesting too. I just thought I'd share my thinking on it. I've always been slightly in awe of people who can climb trad close to their sport grade. This is when the effects of psychology in climbing become really obvious factors.
In reply to Monk:
Were we expected to think that E6 was too high relative to 8a or vice versa?!
> (In reply to Nik Jennings)
>
> Interesting point. I half expected someone to comment or at least raise an eyebrow when I posted that I wanted E6 and 8a.
>
> Interesting point. I half expected someone to comment or at least raise an eyebrow when I posted that I wanted E6 and 8a.
Were we expected to think that E6 was too high relative to 8a or vice versa?!
In reply to Monk:
Seb. (Relatively!) weak in body; awesomely strong in mind. Wanted it so much. Totally prepared to work hard, be at the crag all day long. And prepared to risk everything if, in the end, that's what it came down to.
An inspiration to us all.
Mick
Seb. (Relatively!) weak in body; awesomely strong in mind. Wanted it so much. Totally prepared to work hard, be at the crag all day long. And prepared to risk everything if, in the end, that's what it came down to.
An inspiration to us all.
Mick
In reply to Ciderslider:
E6
7c onsight
8a redpoint
VII
All n+1. Some looking more likely than others (or should that be less unlikely?)
> What about you
E6
7c onsight
8a redpoint
VII
All n+1. Some looking more likely than others (or should that be less unlikely?)
In reply to Ciderslider:
E5
7b
7A
Probably least likely to achieve the trad grade as my head is so bad. Main aim really is to be able to go anywhere in the world and have loads to go at.
E5
7b
7A
Probably least likely to achieve the trad grade as my head is so bad. Main aim really is to be able to go anywhere in the world and have loads to go at.
In reply to thermal_t:
Or because it's a far higher aim than the other two?
> E5
> 7b
> 7A
> 7b
> 7A
> Probably least likely to achieve the trad grade as my head is so bad.
Or because it's a far higher aim than the other two?
1
In reply to Jon Stewart:
It's subjective though isn't it?
My grades (actual rather than aspirations) are more skewed than that.
It's subjective though isn't it?
My grades (actual rather than aspirations) are more skewed than that.
In reply to deacondeacon:
Don't you think it's way easier to get good at sport and bouldering though (7b/7A), because they respond well to indoor training? Whereas to get to E5 you have to climb trad a lot, climb trad a lot more, and then climb some more trad to get any good. Which is hard for anyone with a job and/or family.
Don't you think it's way easier to get good at sport and bouldering though (7b/7A), because they respond well to indoor training? Whereas to get to E5 you have to climb trad a lot, climb trad a lot more, and then climb some more trad to get any good. Which is hard for anyone with a job and/or family.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
To be honest I really don't know. I work 50 hour weeks and have a family, but still progress on trad, albeit pretty slowly. Compared to routes indoors which I stay fairly stagnant at, even though I'm on a fairly intensive training programme.
If you ever fancy some 4x4s I'm doing them 2-3 times a week at the moment.
To be honest I really don't know. I work 50 hour weeks and have a family, but still progress on trad, albeit pretty slowly. Compared to routes indoors which I stay fairly stagnant at, even though I'm on a fairly intensive training programme.
If you ever fancy some 4x4s I'm doing them 2-3 times a week at the moment.
In reply to deacondeacon:
50 hour weeks! Not like a few years ago is it? I'm in a similar position minus the family, but don't seem to have time for any more than a couple of quick sessions at the works and then a boulder outside on sunny days off. Normally I'm all about the 4x4s, but this year I'm not bothering with routes indoors at all, since Edge is no more. Can only just afford my Works membership Can't wait 'til this year's done with, thinking seriously about going part time straight away, 5 days of stressful work and commuting is a pile of bollocks and not worth the money.
50 hour weeks! Not like a few years ago is it? I'm in a similar position minus the family, but don't seem to have time for any more than a couple of quick sessions at the works and then a boulder outside on sunny days off. Normally I'm all about the 4x4s, but this year I'm not bothering with routes indoors at all, since Edge is no more. Can only just afford my Works membership Can't wait 'til this year's done with, thinking seriously about going part time straight away, 5 days of stressful work and commuting is a pile of bollocks and not worth the money.
In reply to Ciderslider:
Interesting post Mr C/S,
I like the n+1 theory, but it doesn't quite fit for me.
I've beta flashed and head-pointed a few E5's, and even a solitary E6, but I can still fail on easier extremes; while also aspiring to be a solid E5 leader before I get too old.
So, would this be an n-1 goal?
Bouldering is good fun but, above the sixes, it hurts my old joints and sometimes lacks the necessary interest and adrenaline to ensure full commitment (Read bum scraping traverses and low ball finger wreckers). Even so, I would still like to be a solid f7a boulderer; because that's where a lot of my projects currently are.
As for sport grades, it would be nice to be solid at F7a/+, but I lack the psyche for sport climbing. If falling off doesn't matter then I tend to try less hard. Whereas, on trad, I tend to be fully committed; particularly where falling off and walking away is not really an option.
I also found it interesting to see people aspiring to E5 and 8a which, for me, just highlights the vast differences in approaches to climbing. I have no ambition to climb 8a, and if I did it would only be as training for E8/9; which also seem completely out of reach just now. So, like I say, interesting thread and good luck to everyone striving to reach their goals in any area of climbing
Interesting post Mr C/S,
I like the n+1 theory, but it doesn't quite fit for me.
I've beta flashed and head-pointed a few E5's, and even a solitary E6, but I can still fail on easier extremes; while also aspiring to be a solid E5 leader before I get too old.
So, would this be an n-1 goal?
Bouldering is good fun but, above the sixes, it hurts my old joints and sometimes lacks the necessary interest and adrenaline to ensure full commitment (Read bum scraping traverses and low ball finger wreckers). Even so, I would still like to be a solid f7a boulderer; because that's where a lot of my projects currently are.
As for sport grades, it would be nice to be solid at F7a/+, but I lack the psyche for sport climbing. If falling off doesn't matter then I tend to try less hard. Whereas, on trad, I tend to be fully committed; particularly where falling off and walking away is not really an option.
I also found it interesting to see people aspiring to E5 and 8a which, for me, just highlights the vast differences in approaches to climbing. I have no ambition to climb 8a, and if I did it would only be as training for E8/9; which also seem completely out of reach just now. So, like I say, interesting thread and good luck to everyone striving to reach their goals in any area of climbing
In reply to Jon Stewart:
I just wrote a really wrong reply and deleted it by accident.
The main points were, although I work a lot of hours I have no stress at all. In work or out of it. This allows me to be completely focussed when I'm climbing, and really relaxed.
I'd only last five minutes in a stressful job, and my climbing would definitely suffer.
Deacon
(got my arse kicked by a soft E1 yesterday too, so I'm almost definitely talking bollocks)
I just wrote a really wrong reply and deleted it by accident.
The main points were, although I work a lot of hours I have no stress at all. In work or out of it. This allows me to be completely focussed when I'm climbing, and really relaxed.
I'd only last five minutes in a stressful job, and my climbing would definitely suffer.
Deacon
(got my arse kicked by a soft E1 yesterday too, so I'm almost definitely talking bollocks)
In reply to Jon Stewart:
If you are talking about pure onsight climbing then you probably have a point. However, someone who climbs 7a regularly could easily work an E5 and headpoint it.
Thinking about it, it's pretty clear you mean the former and not the latter.
> Don't you think it's way easier to get good at sport and bouldering though (7b/7A), because they respond well to indoor training? Whereas to get to E5 you have to climb trad a lot, climb trad a lot more, and then climb some more trad to get any good. Which is hard for anyone with a job and/or family.
If you are talking about pure onsight climbing then you probably have a point. However, someone who climbs 7a regularly could easily work an E5 and headpoint it.
Thinking about it, it's pretty clear you mean the former and not the latter.
In reply to Climbster:
To onsight E5 confidently I'd expect to be on sighting 7a+/7b on sport so an 8a redpoint shouldn't be that far off. I'd say E5 and 8a are reasonably "equivalent". That said I'm a desk jockey with a family so want a bit in hand when trad climbing.
> I also found it interesting to see people aspiring to E5 and 8a which, for me, just highlights the vast differences in approaches to climbing. I have no ambition to climb 8a, and if I did it would only be as training for E8/9; which also seem completely out of reach just now.
To onsight E5 confidently I'd expect to be on sighting 7a+/7b on sport so an 8a redpoint shouldn't be that far off. I'd say E5 and 8a are reasonably "equivalent". That said I'm a desk jockey with a family so want a bit in hand when trad climbing.
In reply to Ciderslider:
I've led a handful of E1s and red(head?)pointed E2, but work and family have definitely stalled my climbing progress in the last 18 months or so. Loving the whole being a Dad thing, but missing regular outdoor climbing.
My aspirations are limited at present to trying to prevent too much deterioration! To be honest maintaining relative competency at 6a and VS is the height of my current ambition.
I've led a handful of E1s and red(head?)pointed E2, but work and family have definitely stalled my climbing progress in the last 18 months or so. Loving the whole being a Dad thing, but missing regular outdoor climbing.
My aspirations are limited at present to trying to prevent too much deterioration! To be honest maintaining relative competency at 6a and VS is the height of my current ambition.
In reply to galpinos:
Like I said, vast differences in approach. I've climbed more E5's than F7a's, because it's trad which pushes me to perform at my limit.
If I could climb F8a I'd expect to be headpointing E8/9 but, as a weekend warrior myself, that may be a bit ambitious.
Like I said, vast differences in approach. I've climbed more E5's than F7a's, because it's trad which pushes me to perform at my limit.
If I could climb F8a I'd expect to be headpointing E8/9 but, as a weekend warrior myself, that may be a bit ambitious.
In reply to Climbster:
If you've onsighted more E5s than 7as isn't that just because you prefer trad? That fact you can onsight them both surely reinforces my point that they aren't a million miles away, just trad is your passion/forte? If you were redpointing 8a, there'd be plenty of E8s that would be within your physical lot to headpoint, especially on the grit.
If you've onsighted more E5s than 7as isn't that just because you prefer trad? That fact you can onsight them both surely reinforces my point that they aren't a million miles away, just trad is your passion/forte? If you were redpointing 8a, there'd be plenty of E8s that would be within your physical lot to headpoint, especially on the grit.
In reply to deacondeacon:
Sounds great! Yep, stress makes a massive difference to whether or not I've got the energy to go climbing, and what I can do when I do get out. Don't see myself working towards any E5s until I've completely reversed the work-life balance I've got just now...should be worth it though.
no way!
> The main points were, although I work a lot of hours I have no stress at all. In work or out of it. This allows me to be completely focussed when I'm climbing, and really relaxed.
Sounds great! Yep, stress makes a massive difference to whether or not I've got the energy to go climbing, and what I can do when I do get out. Don't see myself working towards any E5s until I've completely reversed the work-life balance I've got just now...should be worth it though.
> (got my arse kicked by a soft E1 yesterday too, so I'm almost definitely talking bollocks)
no way!
In reply to Climbster:
I wonder if there's some difference in style here - I'm one of the 8a/E5 people, but was talking strictly about E5 onsight, and I suspect many others were too.
I wonder if there's some difference in style here - I'm one of the 8a/E5 people, but was talking strictly about E5 onsight, and I suspect many others were too.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Yes, definitely, given that many safe E5's would be 7a if bolted.
> (In reply to thermal_t)
> Or because it's a far higher aim than the other two?
Yes, definitely, given that many safe E5's would be 7a if bolted.
1
In reply to Robert Durran: Also if you look at the original E grade of older sports routes there do seem to be some disparities. E.g. Yosemite Wall ai Malham was given E5 or E6 6a or 6b (can't remember exactly) but is 7a+.
So people who aspire to E5 & 8a must mean onsight & redpointed -surely.
So people who aspire to E5 & 8a must mean onsight & redpointed -surely.
In reply to galpinos:
He says he has flashed/head pointed some E5s, not onsighted, which adds another potential variable into the equation.
As Robert says, E5 could easily be Fr7a climbing (7b for the knarly sandbags by repute?), so for those I'd have thought 7b sport onsight (on relevant sorts of routes) would be about where I'd need to be (my aims tend towards the steeper, more protectable end of the range). Guess I'll find out when I give them a go later in the year.
I've usually tended to have a 4 grade onsight:redpoint difference, which puts it into the ~8a equivalency.
He says he has flashed/head pointed some E5s, not onsighted, which adds another potential variable into the equation.
As Robert says, E5 could easily be Fr7a climbing (7b for the knarly sandbags by repute?), so for those I'd have thought 7b sport onsight (on relevant sorts of routes) would be about where I'd need to be (my aims tend towards the steeper, more protectable end of the range). Guess I'll find out when I give them a go later in the year.
I've usually tended to have a 4 grade onsight:redpoint difference, which puts it into the ~8a equivalency.
In reply to AJM:
I must have skipped over the headpointing part, I always think of trad and onsighting.
Looks like we agree on the reasonable E5 (onsight) and 8a (redpoint) equivalence (assuming we’re not talking about physically easy chop routes)
Good luck this summer! I might join in trying some if I can pluck up the courage.....
I must have skipped over the headpointing part, I always think of trad and onsighting.
Looks like we agree on the reasonable E5 (onsight) and 8a (redpoint) equivalence (assuming we’re not talking about physically easy chop routes)
Good luck this summer! I might join in trying some if I can pluck up the courage.....
In reply to Michael Hood:
Yes, I think so. I expect most steady E5 leaders couldn't onsight 8a. Very few E5's are going to require that sort of finger strength. But they could probably do laps on 7a+ all day - the ability to hang on to reasonable holds forever working out the moves and fiddling in gear is far more relevant.
> So people who aspire to E5 & 8a must mean onsight & redpointed -surely.
Yes, I think so. I expect most steady E5 leaders couldn't onsight 8a. Very few E5's are going to require that sort of finger strength. But they could probably do laps on 7a+ all day - the ability to hang on to reasonable holds forever working out the moves and fiddling in gear is far more relevant.
In reply to Ciderslider:
I'm not climbing much at the moment so this may not be representative of the occasionally slightly more keen me.
Trad: E4 and by that I mean being willing and able to get on/up a reasonable selection of them.
Redpoint: Whatever's next. That said there are a handful of mid-7s at Kilnsey which I've started but not yet finished, those are top priority should I get fit again.
Bouldering: Ft5 in Font.
jk
I'm not climbing much at the moment so this may not be representative of the occasionally slightly more keen me.
Trad: E4 and by that I mean being willing and able to get on/up a reasonable selection of them.
Redpoint: Whatever's next. That said there are a handful of mid-7s at Kilnsey which I've started but not yet finished, those are top priority should I get fit again.
Bouldering: Ft5 in Font.
jk
In reply to galpinos:
My experience is that for a good number of people that certainly seems to hold true, however I'd argue that it is because a lot of climbers are currently far better sport climbers than they are at trad.
Unlike AJM I have generally had a zero or 1 grade difference between onsight and redpoint grades. For me that makes the above comparison fairly laughable. I wouldn't say I was a great trad climber but I am happy to admit I have never been a super pysched sport climber when it comes to projecting routes.
FWIW I'd say consistent 7a+ onsight ability is easily enough to climb a good fraction of E5s (i.e. those in the lower half of the grade) assuming a fairly bold approach on 6c-ish climbing. However it is well accepted that E5 is a VERY broad grade and hence a significant minority of routes are extremely bouldery and in specific areas (e.g. Pembroke) some very safe routes with climbing tending towards 7b.
> Looks like we agree on the reasonable E5 (onsight) and 8a (redpoint) equivalence
My experience is that for a good number of people that certainly seems to hold true, however I'd argue that it is because a lot of climbers are currently far better sport climbers than they are at trad.
Unlike AJM I have generally had a zero or 1 grade difference between onsight and redpoint grades. For me that makes the above comparison fairly laughable. I wouldn't say I was a great trad climber but I am happy to admit I have never been a super pysched sport climber when it comes to projecting routes.
FWIW I'd say consistent 7a+ onsight ability is easily enough to climb a good fraction of E5s (i.e. those in the lower half of the grade) assuming a fairly bold approach on 6c-ish climbing. However it is well accepted that E5 is a VERY broad grade and hence a significant minority of routes are extremely bouldery and in specific areas (e.g. Pembroke) some very safe routes with climbing tending towards 7b.
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
Yes, perhaps it's an age thing? Learning to climb at a time when "the leader never falls", I never quite got to grips with the idea falling off; so endlessly dogging sport routes has never really done it for me.
I don't like to dog trad routes either; partly for pride, partly for environmental reasons and partly for self preservation. So my best efforts usually happen after minimal abseil inspection, or a little practice on T/R, to make sure that the rock's in climbable condition and/or to reassure myself that I can do the moves; as part of my "getting in the bubble" routine.
Most of the harder routes I've done were originally done in this style and if it's good enough for the likes of Al Manson then that's good enough for me. I just see it as progress towards my trad goal of E5 on-sight.
I tend to use sport/indoor for mileage in bad weather, training for specific trad projects, or just holiday climbing. But it also helps to give me some idea of what I might be able to achieve on trad.
If I was climbing hard sport, I would feel as if I was underperforming, unless my trad grades were closely matched to my sport grades; but that's just a personal thing and no reflection on anyone who invests significant time and effort in achieving big numbers in sport climbing.
Matt
Yes, perhaps it's an age thing? Learning to climb at a time when "the leader never falls", I never quite got to grips with the idea falling off; so endlessly dogging sport routes has never really done it for me.
I don't like to dog trad routes either; partly for pride, partly for environmental reasons and partly for self preservation. So my best efforts usually happen after minimal abseil inspection, or a little practice on T/R, to make sure that the rock's in climbable condition and/or to reassure myself that I can do the moves; as part of my "getting in the bubble" routine.
Most of the harder routes I've done were originally done in this style and if it's good enough for the likes of Al Manson then that's good enough for me. I just see it as progress towards my trad goal of E5 on-sight.
I tend to use sport/indoor for mileage in bad weather, training for specific trad projects, or just holiday climbing. But it also helps to give me some idea of what I might be able to achieve on trad.
If I was climbing hard sport, I would feel as if I was underperforming, unless my trad grades were closely matched to my sport grades; but that's just a personal thing and no reflection on anyone who invests significant time and effort in achieving big numbers in sport climbing.
Matt
The grade I aspire to is the one I will continue having fun at. I'll let you know when I've found the grade that I don't...
In reply to RJP:
Thing is, if the fun is from climbing at your limit, then if you climb regularly your limit gets harder so aspiring to higher grades just *is* aspiring to continue having fun.
> The grade I aspire to is the one I will continue having fun at.
Thing is, if the fun is from climbing at your limit, then if you climb regularly your limit gets harder so aspiring to higher grades just *is* aspiring to continue having fun.
2
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
Yes, I think the 3-4 grade difference between sport onsight and sport redpoint grades does somewhat require you to try at redpointing!
Consistent 7a+ has got to imply the odd 7b, which then fits well for me with the level I was onsighting when I did my as-yet solitary 8a. I've got some skills which improve my redpointing in a way that doesn't really transfer to my onsighting (good memory for sequences, amongst other things), which is probabky one reason why I traditionally have quite a wide boundary between the two.
Yes, I think the 3-4 grade difference between sport onsight and sport redpoint grades does somewhat require you to try at redpointing!
Consistent 7a+ has got to imply the odd 7b, which then fits well for me with the level I was onsighting when I did my as-yet solitary 8a. I've got some skills which improve my redpointing in a way that doesn't really transfer to my onsighting (good memory for sequences, amongst other things), which is probabky one reason why I traditionally have quite a wide boundary between the two.
In reply to Ciderslider:
I aspire to climb overhangs again and to swing about like I used to,
English 6a I guess, but it's the fluidity or freedom of movement I'm after, bloody elbows, this summer is 'physio summer'.
I aspire to climb overhangs again and to swing about like I used to,
English 6a I guess, but it's the fluidity or freedom of movement I'm after, bloody elbows, this summer is 'physio summer'.
Post edited at 23:18
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Or it could be finding about new puzzles to unlock when trad climbing, I guess, while still being at the same grade, about piecing together the gear placements while not falling off and climbing proficiently.
> Thing is, if the fun is from climbing at your limit, then if you climb regularly your limit gets harder so aspiring to higher grades just *is* aspiring to continue having fun.
Or it could be finding about new puzzles to unlock when trad climbing, I guess, while still being at the same grade, about piecing together the gear placements while not falling off and climbing proficiently.
Post edited at 23:26
In reply to Monk:
I'm an E1/7a guy and for me its definitely a risk/experience thing. Whilst on a good day I can occasionally climb 6c+ indoors, I'm a million miles away from being able to climb to that level on trad. I've just not the experience to feel comfortable at E1 yet - living in Surrey with a full time job and non-climbing wife means I just don't get to climb outside too often. Though I don't think I'm far off E1 now. And as said on here its all down to mileage. I'll definitely get there though, and probably this summer.
I'm an E1/7a guy and for me its definitely a risk/experience thing. Whilst on a good day I can occasionally climb 6c+ indoors, I'm a million miles away from being able to climb to that level on trad. I've just not the experience to feel comfortable at E1 yet - living in Surrey with a full time job and non-climbing wife means I just don't get to climb outside too often. Though I don't think I'm far off E1 now. And as said on here its all down to mileage. I'll definitely get there though, and probably this summer.
In reply to Ciderslider:
oh, also worth mentioning that E1 for me, I expect to be onsighting, whereas 7a is redpointing. I'm a long way off onsighting 7a so that also explains the disparity.
oh, also worth mentioning that E1 for me, I expect to be onsighting, whereas 7a is redpointing. I'm a long way off onsighting 7a so that also explains the disparity.
In reply to GridNorth:
Get on a 7a and give it a good go in Kalymnos in April. If you don't manage it then there's your motivation to train hard indoors.
Come back next April and crush.
Get on a 7a and give it a good go in Kalymnos in April. If you don't manage it then there's your motivation to train hard indoors.
Come back next April and crush.
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