UKC

I've entered the rosedale trail marathon. Having never done one before I have no idea what time to aim for. I did the Sheffield half a couple of years ago in 1hr 31mins and will be at a similar or higher level of fitness I would imagine by the time the race comes around. If it was a flat road marathon I'd aim for sub 4hrs as my ultimate goal, however, its not! There is 670m of ascent in the route and although offroad I dont think the going is too technical. As long as I get round ill be really pleased but am not sure what to aim at. Is 4.5hrs unrealistically fast?

In reply to Somerset swede basher:

Just concentrate on maintaining a consistent effort - pace becomes slightly less of an issue because of the change in terrain.

FWIW, a few years back when my road marathon time was around 3.20, I did the Greensand Marathon in 3:55 - there was around 955m of elevation. Although the ups are tough, if its not too technical you can obviously get a right shift on with the downhills.

The bigger issue is making the jump from half to full marathon, which it sounds like you haven't done.

The thing I love about trail races though is that you don't beat yourself up over the time so much as every course is quite different. Just get out and enjoy yourself.

In reply to Somerset swede basher:
Id say over 26 miles 670m isnt a lot, unless its all in one go, but otherwise it should be fairly spread out. Yes itll be slower than a road marathon but if youve been training for the distance then 4.5 should be realistic for you. That works out about 10.30 per mile. Nobody really knows the answer, but its something to aim for!

Edit - I agree with yorkshireman though as its a long haul run youve got to enjoy it and not worry too much about the time

In reply to Somerset swede basher:

We used to live in Rosedale so know the area reasonably well. The first climb (up Rudland Rigg) is long and steady on a stony but not loose stony track. From there to the drop in to Rosedale is on the track of the old iron ore railway - there's one or two sections that are rough due to landslip over the years but in general it's mostly like a canal towpath. The drop down to Dale Head Farm is fairly steep as is the climb up to checkpoint 4. This climb is also quite loose underfoot. More old railway to the top of Chimney Bank. Not sure about the last bit across the moor down to HLH as it wasn't open access land when we lived there but there are plenty of tracks across the moors and it's generally downhill.

For me, the only bit that would be significantly slower than on-road times would be the climb up to CP4 and a short section near the start by Gillamoor. YMMV (sic)!

In reply to Somerset swede basher:

670m isn't a huge amount, similar to the ascent on the Snowdonia road marathon, which is probably less than ten minutes slower than a fast marathon. Conditions under foot are likely to make more of a difference, dry well compacted non-technical trails can be nearly as fast as road, muddy technical terrain can add a minute of more a mile.

Your training should be you indicator, just can't guess what sort of marathon shape you might be in from the information you have given. The fact that you think 1:31 might convert to sub 4 suggests you might be winging it, 1:31 potentially converts to sub 3:15 for a runner that has trained right for the marathon.

In reply to Bob:

Thanks all, I guess the obvious next question is how to make the jump fRom half to full. I've looked at several training plans and both beginner and intermediate only have a handful of runs over half marathon distance and they seem to base themselves on lots of runs a week between 6-10 miles and one longer one. Should I be doing more longer runs?

In reply to Somerset swede basher:

Pick a plan that you'll be able to stick with. The last few of months of any marathon plan will involve distance runs - regardless of pace.

Using your HM time is a good guide for what you can aim for in the marathon, but without the training it's useless.

Good luck!

In reply to Somerset swede basher:
My first marathon was the Yorkshireman (trail) in about 4h40. I would have been around 1h40+ for a half at the time and definitely in bodging it territory, having not done any longer runs. That's about 950m climbing.

In reply to Somerset swede basher:

Agree with previous replies that the jump from half to full marathon is the major issue. Basically you have to be able to run for around or upwards of 4 hours and there is no better way than simply going out and doing it! So as many long runs as you can manage and do not worry too much about pace. As for trails, the surface is the major issue. If it is muddy then you will be slower. As with others, I prefer trails now as the times are somewhat meaningless but the enjoyment enormous - so go out and enjoy it.

In reply to yorkshireman:


Sounds about right. I went from 3:18 road marathon to 3:58 for Beachy Head with about 3500ft of ascent. I was also on 1:32 half marathon pace at the time. 4 hrs could be a good target for the OP - go for it!

In reply to Somerset swede basher:

For what it's worth, my best half is 1:42, best marathon 4:20.
I've done quite a lot of (technical) trail marathons now, my best time is 5:30.
Just a ballpark figure really 'cos I'm rubbish!!

In reply to Somerset swede basher:

It's impossible to say, depends on the surface and the ascent. I've done almost entirely trail marathons, even 44km long, with 1500ft ascent in 2:50, but others have taken 4:00 plus, the 2:50 was run on superb grassy trails and few muddy sections.

In reply to Somerset swede basher:
I ran the Clarendon Way trail marathon last oct as my first marathon which had 665m of ascent. I ran it in 4.25 and I can't get anywhere near 1.30 for a half so you will do it in well under 4.5 unless the conditions underfoot are bad.
As for training, I raced offroad all through the summer over distances ranging from 10 to 16.5 miles, all hilly races too. I then stepped up the distance to 20 miles a couple of weeks before but didn't follow any plan. My last long run was along the Cotswold Way in the dark!!
Have fun!

In reply to liz j:

At the moment I do a 5 mile run before work Mon and Fri, a 10 mile run after work on a wed and another 10mile on Saturday. My plan is to gradually increase the sat run but keep the others the same due to time constraints. Does that sound about right?

In reply to Somerset swede basher:

I'm in the middle of marathon build up and totally fed up with my new obsession with pace - it's sapping the fun from running for me. Just signed up for the Giants Head marathon in June which is a lovely trail run in Dorset. The Garmin will remain in the drawer for that and the time and pace will be totally unimportant.

They dish out cider at the last fuel station

In reply to Somerset swede basher:

It's worth checking it's actually marathon distance before setting your heart on a time, a lot of these races are significantly over distance.

jk

In reply to jkarran:

That is a very valid point. The last one I did was 46km and 1300m ascent on poor tracks. You can't compare that to a road half etc

In reply to JMGLondon:


I was like that last year - had my heart set on a marathon PB and trained specifically all summer for it - foregoing all the amazing trails and mountains in my backyard in order to get marathon training in.

This year I'm just running about 10 scabby local trail races of anything from 17-55km and my training will consist solely of going out for runs when I feel like it with the dog, exploring the mountains and maybe throwing in the odd bit of speedwork every couple of weeks. Running for fun basically.

In reply to Somerset swede basher:

That is more than I did, my training consisted of a midweek offroad run of between 6 and 9 miles with hills and a longer run on a weekend. Not ideal marathon training but it worked for me. I do think that running races can give you the edge on fitness too, and I also worked on my speed, as that meant I was not even breathing hard on the actual marathon as I was running at a lower speed that I was used to.

In reply to Somerset swede basher:


It depends what you want to do? I'd lengthen the long run to 2 hours at least, at that level the more you run the better. I'd try to get the mileage up to around 45 miles a week. From 30 now that's attainable, then add in a few specific sessions. A long run, some hill reps (if it's hilly) and LT/tempo work.. You can probably alternate them so one hard session a week at first. LT work should be around the pace you can run hard for 1 hour at, so somewhere between 10 mile and 10km pace depending on your speed. Then 1 min rest/mile.. aim for around 25-35 mins of actual efforts. So 2 x 2 mile reps with 2 min rest, 3 x 2km reps with 1:15 rest, 4-5 x 1 mile with 1 min rest.

I'd be careful doing 2 hard sessions on 30 mile weeks as that will be a large portion of your weekly mileage and injury is likely, also a quality long run is effectively a session.

In reply to Somerset swede basher:

Currently doing marathon training - my research is saying that you need to be doing 2-3 times the marathon distance in a week. The most effective training time for building endurance is apparently 1.5-2 hours. However you will need to be careful about building miles. The other obvious one is train on trail to build the stability you need and learn to run down hill (I'm always amazed at the number of people who can't do this and lose huge amounts of time)

In reply to Alex1:

I'm awful at running down hill!

Re 2-3 times the distance - I don't run 50+ mile weeks at any point during marathon training, mainly due to other commitments and partly because I lose the will to run at all. It's not prevented me from achieving the distance in my target times, but I'm sure I could go faster with increased mileage of better quality.

(I max out at 40 mile weeks).

In reply to JMGLondon:

I suspect most people running sub 3 hours are averaging more than 55 miles a week in the 12 weeks prior to the marathon and probably 40 plus even when not marathon training, but there will always be exceptions. I'm aware of one guy who has been running sub 3 for 30 years, peaking at 2:30, on an average 40 miles a week.

Most of the quick marathon guys (sub 2:30) I either know or follow on Strava are doing about 100 miles a week.

In reply to The New NickB:

Sure - I run 3.20's and I know that to run faster I'll have to run longer.