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Am i right in thinking this is quite common practice in places like France and Spain but is unacceptable in the UK?
In reply to Pylon King Against Capit@lism:
If the odd memorial plaque is out, then painting grades on every route is certainly not acceptable.
'Leave no trace' and all that. Buy a guidebook, or just do it old skool and look at the route and make an assessment yourself (for the 'true onsight'...)
If the odd memorial plaque is out, then painting grades on every route is certainly not acceptable.
'Leave no trace' and all that. Buy a guidebook, or just do it old skool and look at the route and make an assessment yourself (for the 'true onsight'...)
1
In reply to captain paranoia:
Surely "no trace" went out of the window when you started drilling loads of holes in the rock and sticking bits of metal in them?
I'm not arguing against the ethic, but I think Trangia's post is probably closer to the real justification.
> 'Leave no trace' and all that.
Surely "no trace" went out of the window when you started drilling loads of holes in the rock and sticking bits of metal in them?
I'm not arguing against the ethic, but I think Trangia's post is probably closer to the real justification.
1
In reply to Pylon King Against Capit@lism:
Painting the names is common, painting the grades is stupid since they change.
Painting the names is common, painting the grades is stupid since they change.
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In reply to Pylon King Against Capit@lism:
One of my local routes has red and white mushrooms neatly painted around all the bolts.......
Not something I'd like to see anywhere else, but it certainly adds a bit of quirkiness to the route!
One of my local routes has red and white mushrooms neatly painted around all the bolts.......
Not something I'd like to see anywhere else, but it certainly adds a bit of quirkiness to the route!
In reply to jimtitt:
Painting route numbers (as in their guidebook position) is also daft but surprisingly common.
> Painting the names is common, painting the grades is stupid since they change.
Painting route numbers (as in their guidebook position) is also daft but surprisingly common.
In reply to Pylon King Against Capit@lism:
Not entirely sure why it should be unacceptable in the UK. Once you have decided to drill the rock you have changed the nature of the venue and the climbing experience in any case. I suppose people sneaking in bolted routes at trad venues like Stoney or High Tor may feel a bit sheepish about it.
Not entirely sure why it should be unacceptable in the UK. Once you have decided to drill the rock you have changed the nature of the venue and the climbing experience in any case. I suppose people sneaking in bolted routes at trad venues like Stoney or High Tor may feel a bit sheepish about it.
1
In reply to GrahamD:
This is what i was thinking. It a bit hypocritical to say its just not British.
> Not entirely sure why it should be unacceptable in the UK. Once you have decided to drill the rock you have changed the nature of the venue and the climbing experience in any case.
This is what i was thinking. It a bit hypocritical to say its just not British.
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In reply to Pylon King Against Capit@lism:
Most sport routes in the UK are easy to identify. In Johnny Foreigner land they cram them really close and have rubbish topos so you need all the help you can get
Most sport routes in the UK are easy to identify. In Johnny Foreigner land they cram them really close and have rubbish topos so you need all the help you can get
1
In reply to Pylon King Against Capit@lism:
You could argue, in general at least, that bolting the routes is necessary to allow them to be climbed (unless you think they should all be soloed as most British sport routes can't be naturally protected) whereas painting names and grades is not necessary since you can just use a guidebook. So in that respect it keeps the "damage" to a minimum.
Also, paint tends to wear away quite quickly and need replacing otherwise you can't read it and paint is more visible and at eye level so more obvious, especially to non climbers who might take a dim view of people painting "graffiti" on rock.
You could argue, in general at least, that bolting the routes is necessary to allow them to be climbed (unless you think they should all be soloed as most British sport routes can't be naturally protected) whereas painting names and grades is not necessary since you can just use a guidebook. So in that respect it keeps the "damage" to a minimum.
Also, paint tends to wear away quite quickly and need replacing otherwise you can't read it and paint is more visible and at eye level so more obvious, especially to non climbers who might take a dim view of people painting "graffiti" on rock.
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In reply to Pylon King Against Capit@lism:
They do it differently at Reconco in Spain where they have small metal tags attached to first bolts with name and grade stamped on them.
> Am i right in thinking this is quite common practice in places like France and Spain but is unacceptable in the UK?
They do it differently at Reconco in Spain where they have small metal tags attached to first bolts with name and grade stamped on them.
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In reply to Pylon King Against Capit@lism:
I used to rather like those faint scratched initials at the foot of the east face of Tryfan. IIRC, wasn't there something like 'FPR' for First Pinnacle Rib?
I used to rather like those faint scratched initials at the foot of the east face of Tryfan. IIRC, wasn't there something like 'FPR' for First Pinnacle Rib?
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Yes. There's also 'FPR' for 2nd Pinnacle Rib!
And at Tremadog, there's 'PMP' at the foot of Borchgrevinck.
> wasn't there something like 'FPR' for First Pinnacle Rib?
Yes. There's also 'FPR' for 2nd Pinnacle Rib!
And at Tremadog, there's 'PMP' at the foot of Borchgrevinck.
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
Ah yes, love it! And I'd forgotten about GA too.
> Yes. There's also 'FPR' for 2nd Pinnacle Rib!
> And at Tremadog, there's 'PMP' at the foot of Borchgrevinck.
Ah yes, love it! And I'd forgotten about GA too.
In reply to pec:
Try climbing on South Wales sandstone, rock "art" is part of the fun. Some of the local graffiti contributors seem to have a healthy approach to adventure, if not to literary excellence
Try climbing on South Wales sandstone, rock "art" is part of the fun. Some of the local graffiti contributors seem to have a healthy approach to adventure, if not to literary excellence
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
GAY in foot-high letters the last time I was there.
> Ah yes, love it! And I'd forgotten about GA too.
GAY in foot-high letters the last time I was there.
2
In reply to Ramblin dave:
Possibly, but bolts and staples are often fairly unobtrusive, compared to low level paint (see pec's post).
> Surely "no trace" went out of the window when you started drilling loads of holes in the rock and sticking bits of metal in them?
Possibly, but bolts and staples are often fairly unobtrusive, compared to low level paint (see pec's post).
In reply to captain paranoia:
No, drilling holes is permanent, irreparable damage, whereas paint can always be removed.
No, drilling holes is permanent, irreparable damage, whereas paint can always be removed.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I quite like the system at Indian Creek where route names are engraved on discreet shards of rock placed at the foot of routes.
> No, drilling holes is permanent, irreparable damage, whereas paint can always be removed.
I quite like the system at Indian Creek where route names are engraved on discreet shards of rock placed at the foot of routes.
2
2
In reply to sheppy:
Well yes, the Earth won't be 'permanent' but lets not be silly about it! Keeping a sense of perspective, cities are permanent and so are bolts/bolt holes.
Well yes, the Earth won't be 'permanent' but lets not be silly about it! Keeping a sense of perspective, cities are permanent and so are bolts/bolt holes.
1
In reply to captain paranoia:
On the contrary I would have said. On crags (abroad) where names are painted on the rock its sometimes the devils own job to spot it even once the suspected line of bolts has been found.
On the contrary I would have said. On crags (abroad) where names are painted on the rock its sometimes the devils own job to spot it even once the suspected line of bolts has been found.
In reply to Pylon King Against Capit@lism:
I came across this while climbing in the Ukraine a couple of years ago. Lacking a guidebook, I found it quite useful.
I came across this while climbing in the Ukraine a couple of years ago. Lacking a guidebook, I found it quite useful.
In reply to Pylon King Against Capit@lism:
Didn't we have this grade painting thing at Malham(?) quite a long time ago? I seem to remember that it didn't stay for very long.
Pmc
Didn't we have this grade painting thing at Malham(?) quite a long time ago? I seem to remember that it didn't stay for very long.
Pmc
In reply to Pylon King Against Capit@lism:
I like the painted names (just initials works).
Painting grades does seem a bit silly.
I like the painted names (just initials works).
Painting grades does seem a bit silly.
In reply to Pylon King Against Capit@lism:
I really don't think it'll be long before a location based augmented reality app appears on our phones and you can just point your phone camera at the rock and it'll overlay the route name. And you can unlock route line, key move sequences, gear placements, and get points and credits for how well you get up the route and then it'll be shared on facebook for everyone.
Or something like that.
I really don't think it'll be long before a location based augmented reality app appears on our phones and you can just point your phone camera at the rock and it'll overlay the route name. And you can unlock route line, key move sequences, gear placements, and get points and credits for how well you get up the route and then it'll be shared on facebook for everyone.
Or something like that.
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In reply to Pylon King Against Capit@lism:
I find it quite useful when abroad, it doesn't take much new route action to move the 3rd line from the left to the 6th line from the left. It is great when visiting a newly developed crag without a guide to have the name and grade at the base of a route.
Would the world really stop turning if discreet markers were painted at the bottom of routes, particularly at some of our recently developed "quality" venues?
There have been numbers painted at Craig y Longridge for longer than I have been climbing, letters carved on Gimmer since the dawn of climbing
I find it quite useful when abroad, it doesn't take much new route action to move the 3rd line from the left to the 6th line from the left. It is great when visiting a newly developed crag without a guide to have the name and grade at the base of a route.
Would the world really stop turning if discreet markers were painted at the bottom of routes, particularly at some of our recently developed "quality" venues?
There have been numbers painted at Craig y Longridge for longer than I have been climbing, letters carved on Gimmer since the dawn of climbing
In reply to captain paranoia:
Oh, sure, there are reasons to be happy bolting rock but not painting on it. It's just a bit more subtle and less clear-cut than "because of our fierce commitment to leave-no-trace ethics".
Are there places in the US where it's acceptable to paint the name of the route on the rock but only if you do it on lead?
> Possibly, but bolts and staples are often fairly unobtrusive, compared to low level paint (see pec's post).
Oh, sure, there are reasons to be happy bolting rock but not painting on it. It's just a bit more subtle and less clear-cut than "because of our fierce commitment to leave-no-trace ethics".
Are there places in the US where it's acceptable to paint the name of the route on the rock but only if you do it on lead?
1
In reply to Pylon King Against Capit@lism:
I believe that discretely chiselled route names are acceptable in the Trym Valley:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=28294
I believe that discretely chiselled route names are acceptable in the Trym Valley:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=28294
In reply to Pylon King Against Capit@lism:
Dulux Exterior White Gloss 1960, Wolf Crag:
http://dalrymple.me.uk/images/P4304589.jpg
Dulux Exterior White Gloss 1960, Wolf Crag:
http://dalrymple.me.uk/images/P4304589.jpg
In reply to JDal:
I know someone who painted the names of their new routes on the crag (Seven Sisters - Wye valley) using the same paint used for concord (they worked at the factory). This contributed to getting the crag banned for eternity!
I know someone who painted the names of their new routes on the crag (Seven Sisters - Wye valley) using the same paint used for concord (they worked at the factory). This contributed to getting the crag banned for eternity!
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In reply to Simon Caldwell:
Yep - caused me some confusion when I soloed PMP in the wet many years ago
--
Some might say Infidel is a bit over the top then?
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:High_Rocks_Warning_Rock_4087.JPG
> And at Tremadog, there's 'PMP' at the foot of Borchgrevinck.
Yep - caused me some confusion when I soloed PMP in the wet many years ago
--
Some might say Infidel is a bit over the top then?
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:High_Rocks_Warning_Rock_4087.JPG
Post edited at 16:45
In reply to needvert:
On a Euro bolt crag, grades would be a lot more useful than a load of funny foreign names. You'd not really need the guide book which is generally just a load of topos with tightly packed lines with grades at the bottom of them anyway. It seems to work well at climbing walls too.
> I like the painted names (just initials works).
> Painting grades does seem a bit silly.
> Painting grades does seem a bit silly.
On a Euro bolt crag, grades would be a lot more useful than a load of funny foreign names. You'd not really need the guide book which is generally just a load of topos with tightly packed lines with grades at the bottom of them anyway. It seems to work well at climbing walls too.
In reply to Robert Durran:
the system at Indian Creek where route names are engraved on discreet shards of rock placed at the foot of routes.
Don't people just keep moving the rocks around? It would be very hard to resist....
the system at Indian Creek where route names are engraved on discreet shards of rock placed at the foot of routes.
Don't people just keep moving the rocks around? It would be very hard to resist....
In reply to Robert Durran:
Isn't that the point: you have to buy the local topo to find the grades of the routes?
Chris
> On a Euro bolt crag, grades would be a lot more useful than a load of funny foreign names. You'd not really need the guide book which is generally just a load of topos with tightly packed lines with grades at the bottom of them anyway. It seems to work well at climbing walls too.
Isn't that the point: you have to buy the local topo to find the grades of the routes?
Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Yes, cunning these foreigners aren't they? But not cunning enough because we all just buy the Rockfax
> Isn't that the point: you have to buy the local topo to find the grades of the routes?
Yes, cunning these foreigners aren't they? But not cunning enough because we all just buy the Rockfax
Post edited at 18:43
In reply to Robert Durran:
Grades change, Robert, so don't waste paint...
> On a Euro bolt crag, grades would be a lot more useful than a load of funny foreign names.<
Grades change, Robert, so don't waste paint...
In reply to carl dawson:
Well, its just sport climbing so there's only really five possible grades>
5,6,7,8,9
> Grades change, Robert, so don't waste paint...
Well, its just sport climbing so there's only really five possible grades>
5,6,7,8,9
In reply to carl dawson:
Not by much. At least I could just turn up at a crag and know roughly what to expect on a route.
> Grades change, Robert, so don't waste paint...
Not by much. At least I could just turn up at a crag and know roughly what to expect on a route.
In reply to Pylon King Against Capit@lism:
In crags like Dunglas, that would probably quite useful, but I don't think that's a good idea.
In crags like Dunglas, that would probably quite useful, but I don't think that's a good idea.
In reply to Pylon King Against Capit@lism:
Leave no trace? Many crags are disfigured with chalk marks nowadays.
Leave no trace? Many crags are disfigured with chalk marks nowadays.
In reply to Pylon King Against Capit@lism:
So you've not climbed at The Breck, then?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=140557&lgn=31866
So you've not climbed at The Breck, then?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=140557&lgn=31866
In reply to Carless:
I never realised that it was Mick Fowler who carved that poem on the rocks after he did Infidel! This information opens up the whole idea that there is a parallel set of names for the climbs at Under Rockes with either Uganda Wall or Lionheart (can't remember which) having been named 'Sharon Loves Trace'.
On a more serious note, the scratched initial at the start of some of the routes on the East Face of Tryfan never really bothered me too much (preferably on the right routes) back, and I may even have used it back on my early visits back in the 60s, but it is graffiti that damages the rock, whereas paint should wear off eventually - not that I agree with that in the UK.
Bob
I never realised that it was Mick Fowler who carved that poem on the rocks after he did Infidel! This information opens up the whole idea that there is a parallel set of names for the climbs at Under Rockes with either Uganda Wall or Lionheart (can't remember which) having been named 'Sharon Loves Trace'.
On a more serious note, the scratched initial at the start of some of the routes on the East Face of Tryfan never really bothered me too much (preferably on the right routes) back, and I may even have used it back on my early visits back in the 60s, but it is graffiti that damages the rock, whereas paint should wear off eventually - not that I agree with that in the UK.
Bob
In reply to Pylon King Against Capit@lism:
I've found names painted on pretty useful in locating routes, particularly on crags you've never been to before. I've never seen grades painted on and they'd be less help, not just because they change and are subjective anyway. The name of a route tells you exactly where you are. If you see something like '7a' it could be any one of a number of routes.
The french tend to do a really nice job in painting route names. They use a pretty fine brush and tasteful lettering too. Sometimes they brush away an elipse of lichen or dirt to help the name stand out a little more but with letters typically an inch and a half high it never seems obtrusive or detrimental to the environment.
I've found names painted on pretty useful in locating routes, particularly on crags you've never been to before. I've never seen grades painted on and they'd be less help, not just because they change and are subjective anyway. The name of a route tells you exactly where you are. If you see something like '7a' it could be any one of a number of routes.
The french tend to do a really nice job in painting route names. They use a pretty fine brush and tasteful lettering too. Sometimes they brush away an elipse of lichen or dirt to help the name stand out a little more but with letters typically an inch and a half high it never seems obtrusive or detrimental to the environment.
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