UKC

Electrolyte supplements - do they work, is it worth it?

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 The Potato 14 Mar 2015
This is probably going to be down to individual preference, but I thought id pop the question to see what UKC says.

For longer runs, or indeed hikes, cycles etc - do products such as High5 Zero, nuun, etc improve hydration and therefore performance, or are they mostly marketing hype?
I know its possible to over do it with electrolytes as I have done by mistake using Elete citrilyte and getting the dosge wrong, and also possible to run low on sodium etc on long hot runs.
Is it best to get your electrolytes from foods or are supplements beneficial?
Removed User 14 Mar 2015
In reply to Pesda potato:

I don't really understand the science enough to calibrate how much and how often i should take per given amount of exertion in a given temperature etc, but I do use them. I started using them for cycling on the advice of a sports nutritionist and now I pop a nuun tab in my waterbottle for any day's exercise (hillwalking etc). I find they make a big difference and I do ride in hot climates a fair bit. I also seem to be quite prone to dehydration however. Someone will doubtless be along to say it just snake oil and that salt would do the same, and perhaps they are correct, but I'm happy to be a mug and keep buying them in this case.
 SouthernSteve 14 Mar 2015
In reply to Removed User:
re: I don't really understand the science enough to calibrate how much and how often

I don't either, but I looked on PubMed recently to try to get a better understanding. There appears to be large variations between individuals which means there is not a straight-forward formula. A recent review states 'Most team sports players do not drink enough to match sweat losses, but some drink too much and a few may develop hyponatremia because of excessive fluid intake', and there is controversy about how to gain the best adaptation during training, although being a bit dry is useful for hot weather adaptation.

I have been drinking milk post exercise (usually 1-2 hours running) and find this seems to really hit the spot, but there is no way I will carry probably warm milk around! A comparison of Gatorade versus water suggested that Gatorade resulted in less loss of body weight and was useful. Drinking beyond thirst, as recommended in the 90s is out of fashion due to problems with over hydration.

This was quite interesting: https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jnsv/59/3/59_206/_pdf
Post edited at 17:58
 Dark-Cloud 14 Mar 2015
In reply to Pesda potato:

I find I get less dehydration headaches if I use Nuun on the bike, if its hot I end up covered in dried salts so something needs to go back in........
OP The Potato 14 Mar 2015
In reply to Pesda potato:

Ive read a few articles and browsed running websites but its hard to find anything from someone who actually uses them and gives an unbiased view.
 Rick Graham 14 Mar 2015
In reply to Pesda potato:

> Ive read a few articles and browsed running websites but its hard to find anything from someone who actually uses them and gives an unbiased view.

If I don't use them during and after a long hard mountain bike ride I am really stiff and aching the next day.

If I use them I am relatively OK.
ceri 14 Mar 2015
In reply to Pesda potato:

In the past OH and I ran races and couldn't work out why we would get headaches after that wouldn't go away however much water we drank. Then we started adding salt and it made a big difference.
If you sweat a lot it's certainly worth putting salt back in either by electrolytes or having salted peanuts as your snack.
I've seen a young chap running a long distance race get leg cramps which were helped by him being given electrolytes by another competitor.
Whether the posh drinks are any better than putting a teapoon of salt in your bottle, I can't say.
 Brass Nipples 14 Mar 2015
In reply to Pesda potato:

I just have some salted crisps or nuts, plus a pint in a pub en route. In my water I just add black currant flavouring. Don't get on with these tabs or gels make me sick and don't like taste.
In reply to Pesda potato:

I've used the flavoured powders you can add to water and also unflavoured concentrated electrolyte solution. I am very prone to cramp so I tend to take them on very big days out/expeditions where I need every help I can get.
Do I notice the difference? Not particularly. For me staying ahead of the dehydration curve is key, plus copious amounts of stretching before and during exercise. I doubt taking electrolytes would prevent cramp if I didn't do those things. Would I still use them? Yeah, probably. I doubt it can hurt and the powders make the water taste nice.
Removed User 14 Mar 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

> If I don't use them during and after a long hard mountain bike ride I am really stiff and aching the next day.

> If I use them I am relatively OK.

This is exactly what I find. I had one a day every day during a Pyrenean tour (at least 1 col per day on laden touring bikes). Somewhere on the Spanish side I ran out of tabs and this coincided with me feeling a lot more done in each morning.
 dread-i 14 Mar 2015
In reply to Pesda potato:

I've just finished a 50K run, and used the SIS (Science in Sport) ones in my camelback, for the first time. I found they made a big difference. I wasn't constantly thirsty when running. I wasn't craving water and drinks afterwards and my urine was an ok ish colour. Best thing about them is that they don't taste salty or indeed sweet for that matter. Just a neutral, clean lemony flavour. (Their gels also have a clean, neutral taste as well.)

Previously I used rehydration salts from Boots. Not as nice tasting and not as effective, but then again, perhaps the dosage is different, as I didn't really measure the water / powder mix. Not tried hi-5 or nunn, so cant compare to them.

I'm also thinking that electrolyte supplements may be good for hangover prevention / cure. Has anyone tried this?
 StefanB 15 Mar 2015
In reply to Pesda potato:

I am sceptical about electrolytes in these drinks. I think what makes a difference though are the easy to absorb calories most contain. It just means that every time you drink you get some calories.

I see no point in the zero calorie versions. When I take gels, I just drink water and don't feel any worse, as long as I don't forget to take the gels.
In reply to StefanB:

> I think what makes a difference though are the easy to absorb calories most contain.

I agree, I have found that my endurance has massively improved from lots of small and often simple-sugar boosts (chocolate, gels, sweet drinks) which is hard for me as I avoid anything very sugary in my daily life. Moving from dark chocolate to higher sugar versions etc seems to be working well.

I suppose if you do take electrolytes, maybe try the carb/electrolyte supplements you can buy and consume at regular increments. My muscles seem to thank me when I do this.
 Chris the Tall 15 Mar 2015
In reply to Pesda potato:

I use the zero tabs in a pint of water after hard rides/runs. I certainly get less cramp than previously- there were times when I was in agony - and seem to recover better. However maybe it's just than I'm more used to the exertion.

During a ride/run I tend to stick to simple water, can't stand gels, but swear by shot Bloks. Again don't really know if they make a difference - too many other factors - but I believe in them
 /tmp 15 Mar 2015
In reply to Pesda potato:

You can add salt and sugar to water to achieve the same effect much cheaper and more conveniantly (asuming you all ready have those things in your house.) A friend who cycles and is a medic suggested it to me. My housemate who is a nurse and had just done some tropical nurse training agreed with some caveats. She said that when people discovered this was pretty much as affective as re-hydrating people with IV saline it dramitcally decreased infant morrtality in places with outbreaks of cholera as children weren't able to handle sufficant volumes of saline in their veins, the BUT is that the ratios have to be pretty acurate as too much sugar could increase the diarrhea (maybe not a problem if you've not got cholera!) and too much salt would increase dehydration. As such WHO still advocates and distributes ORS(oral rehydration salts) despite the added cost.

Anyway your probably more robust than a child with cholora but I still wouldn't just add a teaspoon of salt to your water bottle and have at it.
ceri 15 Mar 2015
In reply to /tmp:
1/2 teaspoon of salt and about 6 tea spoons of sugar per litre water: it's that simple Commercial stuff has citrate and potassium as well, which helps absorption, but if you are healthy you probably don't need those.
Post edited at 14:59
 DancingOnRock 15 Mar 2015
In reply to Pesda potato:

The body regulated the salt concentration extremely well. Mainly in your urine. Your kidneys will filter out the salt as you become more dehydrated and chuck it out in your urine. That's why it's dark.

Once it's gone you have to replace it.

You don't just lose it in sweat.

I used a zero tab yesterday for the first time after a friend suggested it because I've been getting headaches mid afternoon after a long morning run or race.

No headache yesterday and no stiff legs or joints this morning.

I'm converted.

When I was having chemo, they said that potassium salts were the important ones to replace. So normal table salt (sodium) isn't going to cut it and why bananas help.
 Dark-Cloud 15 Mar 2015
In reply to StefanB:

Most electrolyte drinks have very little or zero calories,.

I don't like taking calories on in liquid form, if you are thirsty or not you have no control over the carb intake, much better to use electrolytes in the drink and proper food or gels for when you need calories, its much easier to control and monitor then.
OP The Potato 15 Mar 2015
In reply to Pesda potato:

Yeah two things ive noted is that on longer events if I get hungry I eat then dont fancy something sweet like the energy powders, which is why i was wondering about the no added sugar ones.

And to those suggesting table salt and sugar, ive also done this and for non sports related severe dehydration this works well, I was just interested in these as they also contain magnesium and calcium.

Good discussion so far people, carry on.
 Gone 15 Mar 2015
In reply to /tmp:

> BUT is that the ratios have to be pretty acurate as too much sugar could increase the diarrhea (maybe not a problem if you've not got cholera!) and too much salt would increase dehydration.

That reminds me of when I was on holiday as a teenager and got the traveller's trots. My mother had read up about rehydration solutions in the guidebook but hadn't bothered to notice that the concentrations of salt and sugar were different. So she made up a bottle of water with a tablespoonful of sugar and a tablespoonful of salt. I told her it was foul and I didn't want to drink it but she insisted that medicine wasn't supposed to taste good and if I didn't do what I was told we would have to leave the tour group and go to a hospital and the holiday would be ruined blah blah blah... So I drank it, and very quickly went from just having diarrhoea to having diarrhoea and vomiting as the saltiness of the water made my puke my guts up repeatedly ... She did apologise in the end though.

OP The Potato 15 Mar 2015
In reply to Gone:

I bet that taught you not to have diarrhoea again didnt it?
 stuartpicken 15 Mar 2015
In reply to Pesda potato:
So money's a bit of an issue for me so i guess that factors into the decision making stuff. But i do use 'em occasionally, and do like them. Mostly I use them on special occasion stuff - usually alpine climbing. In my experience they do make a difference, and are definitely worth the weight and money. I feel better during the day, and perhaps more importantly, notice a marked difference in recovery. Without fail, i bring these on multi-day efforts.
However, generally speaking i don't use them running. I find a perfectly adequate solution (pardon the pun!) is to mix 50/50 water and orange juice + and two thirds of a teaspoon of salt per liter. I dilute so the sugar content is not too high. apparently >6% you're in the territory of gastric distress. i'm not sure i buy this, but for what ever reason i do find straight orange juice disagrees with me.
Day to day this works for me, though perhaps not quite so well as the powders. However, running you've usually got a plenty of time the rest of the day to gradually re-hydrate and take in some salty foods
Anyways, my view is yea, they work and help, but the ol' diluted orange juice is my go to option!
Post edited at 20:00
 Dave the Rave 15 Mar 2015
In reply to Pesda potato:
Dunno. But. I had a long day for me in hot weather in the Fannaichs. Sweated buckets but urine still clearish due to drinking copious amounts of water. On the descent I was overcome with cramps so bad that I thought I would be benighted. This was as scared as I've been on the hills. Hands unable to release a grip and calves and feet cramping too.
I had a night of agony in a tent, and it took 24 hrs for the cramps to disperse once I managed to get some diarilyte.

 Toerag 16 Mar 2015
In reply to DancingOnRock:
they said that potassium salts were the important ones to replace. So normal table salt (sodium) isn't going to cut it and why bananas help.

Bananas don't actually have as much potassium as they're widely said to have.
 Toerag 16 Mar 2015
In reply to dread-i:

> I'm also thinking that electrolyte supplements may be good for hangover prevention / cure. Has anyone tried this?

I used to keep a can or two of lucozade sport in my fridge to guzzle after a night's hard raving. These days I find a can of full-fat coke on the way home from a night out on the piss works well.

In terms of the original question, I've seen someone conk out due to a combination of heat exhaustion and lack of salt. There were about 38 miles into our local 40 mile charity walk and absolutely out of it - they collapsed and were on their hands and knees and unable to speak any sense. They'd been drinking plenty of water throughout the 11 hours they'd been walking and I'm pretty sure they'd simply run out of salts. After ten minutes sat under a wet towel they weren't improving so we called an ambulance for them. I've no idea about the outcome other than that they didn't die.
 nathan79 17 Mar 2015
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> When I was having chemo, they said that potassium salts were the important ones to replace. So normal table salt (sodium) isn't going to cut it and why bananas help.

Too many folk concentrate on sodium and neglect potassium. Lo-salt, the low sodium salt alternative is mainly potassium salts so it's good to use that to get a blend of sodium and potassium if you're making your own DIY drink.

On the original topic, they are a God send. Thigh cramp used to be the bane of my life on long/hot days out on the hills but with a preemptive tab or two dropped in my water it's rare I have any bother.
Ferret 17 Mar 2015
In reply to Pesda potato:

Never been quite sure if they work or are snake oil... however, on my last long run (pushing distance a fair bit so hard going) I started getting calf cramps in last few miles and hadn't taken anything yet. Took a tablet and they were gone in a few minutes. May have been coincidence but no harm done.

Have to admit - I hate 'energy' drinks/flavoured water etc... I just drink plenty of good clean fresh water (and flat coke at race checkpoints). I then eat half a Zero tab once in a while like its a giant refresher..... On anything up to 20 to 30 miles I'll do half a tablet... anything longer I may get round to taking a couple of halfs.
 DancingOnRock 17 Mar 2015
In reply to Toerag:

Interesting. Thanks. Maybe it's the fructose that helps. A lot of gels now being marketed with glucose/fructose mix as the body can absorb mire carbohydrate that way.

I was told to drink tonic water as well.
 Robert Durran 17 Mar 2015
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> I was told to drink tonic water as well.

Tonic water contains quinine which is supposed to be good for cramp (though whether the amount in it is enough to be of use is apparently debatable). Unfortunately it seems difficult to get stronger quinine unless you have a friendly GP! I make up my electrolytic energy drink with tonic water. I'd try anything, cramp now being very much the limiting factor for me running and mountaineering.......

 galpinos 17 Mar 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

Quinine requires gin for absorbtion, or so I've heard.....
 steelbru 18 Mar 2015
In reply to Pesda potato:

There's been a few studies done now, mainly on endurance cyclists, which have shown that cramping muscles are in no way deficient in salt or potassium or any other mineral.

The conclusion of these studies is that cramping muscles is almost entirely due to under-training of those muscles for the length/intensity of the exercise being undertaken.

Sorry, don't have any links to hand for the studies, seem to recall they were done in South Africa
OP The Potato 18 Mar 2015
In reply to steelbru:
Thats interesting, Ive never had 'cramps' as such due to lack of training only muscle pain or strain from pushing too hard.
The only time Ive had cramp is when Ive been for a ride hung over (i.e. dehydrated), or on a long hot run when I didnt have access to enough water.

This is anecdotal but I suppose based on this and your post that its more to do with water volume rather than electrolytes.
Post edited at 16:04

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