UKC

I have been practicing a bit of prusiking and escaping from the system over the last couple of days, and just wondered how often, in the real world, people have had to use these skills, and would be interested in any stories or tips regarding there use in real life situations.

In reply to tmawer:

I can escape the system but have never had to. Just a thought on the tips front, I hear its easier to escape the system if you setup a direct belay. I don't know if you've done this as part of your practise but it seems to make sense to me.

In reply to tmawer:

avoidance is usually the best strategy. escaping the system is a good skill to know but I've never had to do it.

In reply to tmawer:

Never had to escape the system but being able to prussik and change to ab from prussik and vice-versa is essential.

Practice with various knots, devices and none.

Also practice with one (without two is asking a bit much ) leg or arm. (from recent experience )

In reply to tmawer:

I like people who practice emergency stuff. Too many people go out not knowing what to do when shit hits the fan.

The best thing is knowing, "hmm that doesn't look good, let's give it a miss".

In reply to Rick Graham:

Have you had to prusik "in extremis " Rick, or just as part of the days plan?

In reply to tmawer:
Had to setup an assisted hoist on the first pitch of the Old Man of Stoer when my partner slipped on the traverse. Couldn't lower him to the ground because there wasn't any.

Wasn't necessary to escape from the system as I always setup a direct belay unless it's unsafe to do so.

Tips would be to learn the simplest possible setup (that will work) using the gear you're most likely to have. For me this is an assisted hoist from a direct belay with half ropes.

In reply to planetmarshall:

Is 2:1 were you lower a loop to your second, and gain a mechanical advantage with a pulley?

In reply to tmawer:
Had to think about that question for a few minutes.

The only prussiking not in the days plan:

Getting back up to rerig a jammed abseil rope, ( not mine )1972
Getting back up a fixed rope/abseil on an alpine retreat.1980
Getting past an aid section after a fixed peg snapped seconding, not much fun as half the belay failed at the same time.1978
Getting my gear back, last year, with a broken ankle.2014

So less than once every ten years but still handy.

In reply to tmawer:
Missed one

Getting a floating helmet back from a jellyfish infested zawn near the Old Man of Stoer 2003

In reply to tmawer:
Depends. If the loop goes straight from you to the second, there is no mechanical advantage - but both of you can pull on the rope.

You can gain mechanical advantage if the rope goes from the second to a pulley at the anchor, and back down to the second (A classic z-pulley) but this is more complex to setup and may not be necessary.

You need at least two turns in the rope to gain mechanical advantage, notwithstanding friction in the system caused by climbing devices and also elasticity in the rope.

In reply to tmawer:

Maybe a naive question but can you 'hire' someone to teach oneself these techniques?

In reply to greylag:
Of course

Http://www.jbmountainskills.co.uk

In reply to Rick Graham:

Nice one Rick. Never had to do it........time yet though!

In reply to jezb1:

Probably lots of people offering this kind of training, but I am quite interested in how frequently these skills are "used in anger".

In reply to tmawer:


Always best to have your accidents near or on the ground.

I was lucky when I crushed a vertebra, landed in a car park, just a matter of backing up the ambulance.

In reply to tmawer:

5 for me.
Only 2 if I was not tight or helpful.

In reply to tmawer:

Had to do it once to assist a crag fast 10 year old on black crag.

In reply to tmawer:

I've hoisted a few times, prussiked a couple but thankfully never done a full on escape-evacuate but I know a few who have.

In reply to planetmarshall:

eh?

If you drop a loop (ideally with pulley) to hanging person you get a 2:1 system. Every length you take in they move up by half. Z-rig is 3:1. obviously with friction you loose quite a bit.
With dropped loops you need to have some sort of 'capture' in place (so yo don't drop them....). A 2:1 is hard work for anything other than a short lift (unless you are many).

In reply to HardenClimber:



Yeah, what he said.

In reply to planetmarshall:

I've had to haul a partner twice - once when they couldn't follow and again after a fall below a roof meant no way to get back in contact with the rock. Prussiked out swanage cliffs a couple of times too, once after a minor accident left us both too shaken to climb out.

Both hauling situations involved the usual tied off belay plate and hands free set up, but no need to entirely escape the system, if I recall correctly.

I've also had partners have to prussik up after me. One thing I think is really good here is to have the second prussik on a single strand and then belay them on the other (obviously only if you can communicate this and are using half ropes). I think it gives a bit of extra security against stupid accidents, and prevents the chance of sharp edges doing anything nasty as only one rope is properly weighted.

In reply to tmawer:
If you can;

Escape the system
Prussik up, or down.
Hoist - assisted / unassisted
Abseil - usual style / counter balance.

then, you can solve pretty much any situation that you'll ever meet as a climber, either to your own climbing party or others.

The only real exception would be the imagined scenario where your second falls off the middle of dream, hangs too far below the route line unconscious. You can't hoist them to you, you can't lower them to the ground, you can't ab off for help, you are alone on the crag.. You can retreat down your own rope to help them, but self rescue unless you solo out is practically impossible(there is a very long winded solution). Time for the old fashioned whistle (or mobile).

Even if the odds of use are low, learning these skills will make your rope work and general awareness so much better.

In reply to tmawer:

The first time I'd ever tried Prusiking was to escape the Boulder Ruckle one November day as the sun was heading down and the start of Sinbad wasn't happening. Luckily we had managed to get one of our rope of three up the pitch and the second aided up on some gear. As last person I had to strip the gear and learn to Prusik fast ! Actually I knew the theory well enough, but I don't think anything prepares you for a) how stretchy a climbing half rope really is and b) how much a thin loop can cut into your delicate feet in rock shoes !

I've never seen the point of learning "how to escape the system". ((.9 times out of a 100 the right answer is lower your artner off and the other 0.1% of the time you can bet the scenario won't be anywhere near as convenient as the one you practiced in ideal conditions.

In reply to GrahamD:

Interesting: the one time I had to prusik for real was at Swanage too.

Other than that: did a self-rescue course once, practice a bit every year or so, never had to use any of it in anger yet.

I also find solo top roping is relevant practice: you're on your own with nobody to double check you and you're using systems and techniquesthat aren't what you use in normal everyday climbing, so you have to really pay attention to what you are doing, making sure you are secured & backed up at all times etc.

In reply to GrahamD:

This seems to be in line with the conclusion I am reaching. Prusiking seems a useful skill to have.......although having climbed a long time I have never had to do so......perhaps I am not trying hard enough!? I tried to think of situations in which escaping the system would be the required thing to do, but could only come up with very contrived and unlikely situations for the climbing I actually do.

In reply to tmawer:

Part of the deal with climbing for me, is self sufficiency.

So taking the leader / second falling on a route like dream, yes you could whistle, phone, shout but I'd rather be able to sort it out myself.

Of course any of us might need assistance from MR etc at some point, but I'd rather not have to rely on them.

In reply to tmawer:

Once (Prusiking) in 15years I think, ascending a jammed ab rope. I don't recall ever having to escape a belay in an emergency though I've probably used the skills once or twice to extricate myself from some incompetent cluster**** I've built then needed to abandon with others still attached.

More knowledge is never a bad thing whether you use it or not.
jk

In reply to tmawer:

Are you planning a particular type of epic this weekend Tony?! Let me know what you have in mind and I'll get prepared!

FWIW - assisted hoists have come in handy on a couple of occasions when out with Mrs BT. We did spend a day with someone preparing for MIA assessment a while ago who needed a couple of guinea pigs. Went through escaping the system, prusiking up, hoisting (assisted/unassisted), traverse rescue, and abbing past a knot. Bloody freezing but a really useful day, some of which we have utilised. We did get into the habit of practicing a few scenarios occasionally, particularly before we headed to Morocco.

Plenty of opportunity to practice if the weather stays like this!

In reply to Rick Graham:


You had double ambulances?

In reply to tmawer:

Wow, I'm starting to feel like I'm doing something wrong!! I've prusiked in anger at least 5 times in the last 6-7 years. I guess having practiced it and knowing it's not too bad might make it more likely to happen, e.g. last year I prusiked out of Yellow Walls at Gogarth as my partner failed on his route and we couldn't be arsed climbing out.

Never had to escape the system (though I know in theory how I'd do it) and never had to rescue or hoist a partner. And thr only time I've injured myself climbing was at Brimham so my friends could carry me back to the car.

In reply to tmawer:

Prusik - a few times to retrieve stuck abseil ropes etc. Escape from the system? Never. Hoisting someone - once (Boulder Ruckle too BTW). In 30 years.

In reply to BTphonehome:

Glad to be in good hands mate, at least one of us knows what we are doing! Main epic is likely to be finding dry rock!!

In reply to tmawer:

Despite a vast amount of time spent learning improvised rescue techniques, (including, back in the days before harnesses, getting the weight off the victim's waist-loop) the only one I've ever had to use is the simple assisted hoist. Both of you pulling like buggery, easy-peasy.

Apart from that, the usual prussiking up to free a jammed ab in the Alps.

Oh yes, not climbing exactly but four of us once carried a guy with a broken ankle out from the top of Ben a'Bhuird on a split coil.

In reply to tmawer:
You can never know too much. Practicing rope-work and technical skills teaches you how to solve problems. One day, you might have to use these skills and you don't want to be "inventing" them in the cold, in the wet, in the dark, without a headlamp and with naught but a karabiner and a shoe-lace.

I don't think these skills are really necessary at sport crags but I would advise every traditional climber (especially multi-pitch and alpine) to learn how to:

* tie and use a munter hitch
* tie off a belay and escape the system
* ascend and descend ropes
* pass knots in both directions and while lowering
* haul a partner with mechanical advantage & progress capture
* isolate rope-damage with an alpine butterfly
* drop a rope into a gale that's funneling vertically up your route
* perform a tandem abseil (counter-balanced and both-together)
* lift yourself off a knot (bonus points for lifting a partner off a knot)

These aren't required knowledge - just go climbing and pick them up as you go along - but, next time you're rained out, consider staging a rope-skills session before retiring to the pub.

In reply to Xharlie:

Trouble is, every time I've had to do something creative I've had to invent it, largely because whoever laid out the crag gave little thought as to how you were going to arrange a viable three-in-one hoist off a single horizontal crack at ankle level on a foot wide ledge, with the gear available and in a time frame compatible with avoiding hypothermia. Equally, escaping the system has always seemed to be a deeply unattractive proposition, but perhaps I have yet to be in a predicament when the status quo is worse

In reply to Xharlie:

There are only a couple of pieces of knowledge needed though: how pulleys and forces work (O level or modern day equivalent); how to tie a Prusik; how to tie a knot. The exact arrangement of these for any situation really is scenario dependent.

In reply to nniff:

But by knowing the building blocks you can improvise more effectively... I reckon.

In reply to jezb1:

Yes, it's solvable, with a little time. We came up with that worst case scenario we could think of, on a MIA training course in the 90s. Hoping that Twid wouldn't get any ideas and add it into a future assessment.

In reply to Xharlie:

But it looks like the anecdotal evidence is that most of this, whilst interesting to some people, and potentially useful, is unlikely to be used in the real world. I have now been climbing for over 40 years and some how have managed, without being confident of achieving anything in your list! Perhaps I have just been lucky.

In reply to summo:


Ha, I had to do a traverse rescue on my assessment..! Fun times

In reply to tmawer:

Had a golden opportunity to put to use my esoteric knowledge of the 'retrievable ice screw' in January. One for next time. Or, hopefully, not.

In reply to jezb1:


Indeed.

Although high tide, a phone call to Holyhead lifeboat and a knife would rapidly solve the dream problem.

In reply to tmawer:

I've lived with a fire-extinguisher in my house for many years and never had to use it. It is still serviced according to a schedule, though, so that a tragic sausage-and-bacon accident doesn't become the death of me. Unlikely, but possible.

In reply to Xharlie:

The "what if" argument is hard to argue against, but can lead to a good deal of needless anxiety and what therapists call "safety behaviours" which are understandable but keep the worry alive. A panic room in a house may be (?) a good idea, but is perhaps more of a sign of how anxious the owner is rather than being evidence of a realistic level of risk.

In reply to tmawer:

Fair enough. I don't have a fully-automated server-room-grade fire-suppression system installed in my house, I have the common and ubiquitous little red jobby burried under bike tools and old boots in a cupboard.

This is why I don't consider those techniques to be required knowledge. It is a good list of stuff to practice when you've got time to kill. (Personally, I enjoy hanging on ropes and playing with gear and learning exactly what you can and can't do with it. It is a lot of fun. Besides, the superiority-complex is delicious.)

In reply to tmawer:

Because it's not often that folk decide to second multipitch routes which are far too hard for them, prussiking is almost certainly most common after an abseil. So if you never abseil you'll PROBABLY never have to prussik.

But it only needs a rope to jam on a multipitch abseil and then what do you do? It's not a magic bullet but can be a useful skill to have when required.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

I agree, I was mid route in the alps and had a rock fall damage the rope, I isolated the damaged with a knot, but if you need use of the full rope length, then you need a few improvised work arounds.

In reply to tmawer:

Never had to escape the system or hoist for real, just in practice. Other than a couple of days ago in Swildons Hole, my mrs couldn't (refused) to climb the last 2 metres of a ladder pitch, ended up hoisting her up with the lifeline. These skills come in handy at the most unlikely times! Its good practice to refresh your mind on emergency scenarios every now and then.

Ollie.

In reply to tmawer:

In 20 years, once had to prussik up a rope (in fact used the belay device on off-vertical rock with a prussik back -up which seemed easier). This was absolutely essential as otherwise no way up or down and no phone signal. One assisted hoist but not essential - could have abbed off.

In reply to Xharlie:



Etc, etc.

To the skills listed, can I add one other - waist belaying.

In reply to tmawer:

In 18 years of climbing and 6 of those guiding never once have I had to use a rescue. The only thing I have had to do is a few time on a sea cliff use an assisted Z pull to help a person seconding get passed a few moves they could not do. But I do not regret knowing rescue rope work.