UKC

Have just returned from winter assent of Toubkal and found summit day challenging I wondered if anyone has done both Toubkal and Elbrus and can give a comparrison
Rod

In reply to rodw:

Challenging in what respect: altitude, weather, technicality, day length, start time? A single day on one mountain is hard to compare to another without some context.

In reply to rodw:

I found Toubkal particularly tricky because of all the liquids geysering out of both ends, we think it was a dodgy olive, or maybe a dead goat in a stream we washed out faces in. Anyway, I hold the record for highest vomit in North Africa.

I'd imagine food poisoning on Elbrus would be horrible too, I honestly don't think I'd recommend it.

In reply to Escher:
Hi I was thinking more in the severity of summits day in terms ofdurationand ascent I know the increased alltitude will make a difference. I found summit day on Toubkal quite taxing and I am trying to decide if I am up to Elbrus

In reply to rodw:

I haven't done Toubkal but I did Elbrus. It gets lots of storms and can end up as it did with me lots of snow to get through. It was tough but the altitude was less of a problem on this than I found on the previous climb Kilimanjaro. Seems to be the route everyone else there had done doing this hill first. You climb up to some rocks high on the mountain as acclimatisation the day before and give you the option of a lift up in the morning on the snow track machine. We went for that to save some time.

BTW : A lot of people there funnily enough don't like westerners and go out their way to be unpleasant towards you.

In reply to rodw:

I have done both a winter ascent on Toubkal and summited Elbrus last summer. They are both VERY different with Elbrus being more arduous. We spent a week acclimatising on the west side of Elbrus first, so had no problems with altitude on the ascent.

I climbed from the north side of Elbrus, load carrying kit from base camp to ABC at the foot of the glacier and summited without using any snowcats or vehicles. A typical summit day on the north side is a 16 hour round trip from ABC-summit-ABC. My team and I done it in 13 hours with excellent weather.

Without wanting to blow my own trumpet, I was the strongest and fittest on the team and even I was pissing brown and stumbling from dehydration and exhaustion in the last couple of hours of the descent. 11 guys set out for the summit pre-dawn and only 5 of us got to the top.

It's not just the duration and exertion of the summit day that makes it harder but the weather (very cold: -20c, often very windy), the terrain (steep glaciated slopes) and of course the altitude also contributes.

Toubkal is a relatively easy, quick, alpine style ascent but Elbrus is definitely more of a high-altitude expedition.

Hope this helps.

In reply to Adam_Turner:
Thanks for that Adam it has certainly helped me reach a decision

In reply to rodw:
Don't be put off the only person that didn't do it in our group was a oil worker talked into it by his hillwalking mate. he turned around purely because it was getting tough and was on holiday.
There were guys there far from fit and one pissed us off why he had come holding everyone back. overweight and nil hill fitness but still made it up.
They drove a landrover up there previously and despite what people like to ham it up you have to walk through the snow borders/skiers to reach the final ascent from col to summit.

"Summit days" come on its a winter sports hill hardly a 8000+ m mountain.

In reply to Pete Houghton:

The long drop from the old Priut 11 hut on Elbrus was one spot not to be ill. The altitude and aspect combined to make it warm enough for the poo to degrade for only 2 weeks every year, and it had a lot of visitors over the years! I think I was there during the 2 weeks. Not a good spot to be ill. On the plus side I don't think you'll find any olives for hundreds of miles.

In reply to fmck:
Hi thank for that. I take it you did it by the southern approach

In reply to rodw:

Yes by a Russian guide company that no longer seems to exist. Pity because there was only two of them and they did us an amazing service. The place is a bit hostile and they practically put us back on the steps of the plane. May be different these days but probably worse with Putin and his drive to return to the cold war.
You got a week to acclimatise so I found it easier than Kili even though it was under deep snow. On Kilimanjaro one of the guides took my pack off me because he thought I was struggling. Probably was, Elbrus is a struggle but everyone but one that left the huts that day made it but the guy that didn't just thought stuff this. Sensible fellow thinking why carry on with something that he found unpleasant. He did feel regrettable later speaking to him in a pub in St Petersburg later.
I don't take to altitude very well. As long as you book a trip with a weeks acclimatisation beforehand you will be fine. Problem with some of these mountain tours is they try to get you there far too quickly.

Go for it, unless you've got some medical problems you will make it with proper acclimatisation.

In reply to rodw:

Oh forgot to add ;

On traveling up the remote road after being picked up from the airport. A soldier with an AK47 waved for us to stop. The driver swerved off the road to avoid him and carried on. The group of westerners in the van asked " I think that soldier wanted us to stop". He replied " he just wants money". We explained " He had a f#####g AK47"

"Ah but he has no bullets! Bullets are currency round here and he wouldn't waste any"

Mental!

In reply to rodw:

I have only done Toubkal in the summer, so can't really compare them. But I have to say that Elbrus was my highest mountain at the time, after Ben Nevis. I went with a company called EWP, and we spent over a week acclimatizing and the programme they had worked really well. I had no bad effects at all, and didn't find Elbrus especially hard. Summit day is quite long. If I remember rightly, we left the barrel huts at 3am and returned to them about noon. Most people on the trip took the chair lift up to just below the huts but a few of us preferred to walk which definitely helped acclimatization- I would advise you to walk up. We slept in the cable car station as it started snowing really heavily (in july) and walked to the huts the next morning. It got very cold once the sun went down. As I said I have only done Toubkal in summer. We camped at the refuge and I think summit day was maybe 6 hrs,tent to tent. But please don't be put off Elbrus- It's a fantastic experience. Unlike fmck, I found the Russian people to be wonderful and they were really kind and friendly. It helps if you speak a few words of Russian and try to learn the alphabet. Good luck

In reply to rodw:

How long did you have acclimatising on Toubkal? If you went almost straight up from Imlil (to the hut one day, then up), its high enough for altitude to be a major factor. Having done it after a full week walking in the Atlas over high passes, it then felt little harder than an ascent of Ben Nevis. If I'd done it after just a day or two, I'd have struggled. Of course, much depends on how you personally react to altitude...

In reply to Mal Grey:
1 day to acclimatise 1 day up to refuge then summit day

In reply to redsonja:


It was there ten years ago and both myself and my mate over previous found it pretty hostile. They must be seeing westerners as bringing in much needed money to the area because at the time I couldn't understand it.
The quarries were all closed in the valley and there was much unemployment. Someone told me it was there was no longer a demand for some mineral that was in big demand during the cold war. Don't know.

We did a acclimatisation walk on the Elbrus side of the valley and we needed to pass through a village. There was the village nutter at the entrance with a gun and he let the front Russian party through. After some talk between our guide and said nutter, guide shook his head and led us up the hillside round and back down to the track again.

Acclimatisation camping trip up to the green hotel the Georgian army made us sit in the forest for two hours. They had our passports, etc. After two hours of the trying to extort money off us another western party arrived and we got to go while they then got the same treatment.

The hotel in Terskol was obviously a brothel with my bed leopard skin covers and bright pink sheets and pillow cases. Once in the bar the bar man told us he had 13 girls and one guy. Lucky guy!
The hotel manager lost the plot with us because we were taking too long getting our wet gear in to the boiler room. Do not know what he was saying but he was yelling in Russian while going round everyone grabbing there kit off them.
Not everyone was hostile and there were plenty sensible folks there but the real nasty encounter came after the final night and celebration night. One of the lads drunk must of done something to upset the chef. We went down for breakfast very hungover from homemade vodka the night before. The chef burst out the kitchen door grabbed the guy against the wall at put a kitchen blade to his throat. What followed was the guide and chef having a frantic Russian discussion with everyone freaking out. The guy was ready to cut him for sure his face was red with rage and eyes fuil of insane rage.

There was a number of incidents but these were the worst. Time moves on and by the sounds of it the place is becoming a bit more westerner friendly.

In reply to fmck:

My gosh. I honestly didn't see anything like this. I was there in 2001

In reply to rodw:

Having done both in the summer seasons my thoughts are;

Elbrus summit day is harder than Toubkal and the lead up to summit day is harder as well. Having said that there is no reason why you couldn't move on from Toubkal (winter) to Elbrus, it's far from a massive step.

If you can walk up Toubkal in the winter, with a bit more experience (which you already have by walking up Toubkal) you will manage Elbrus ok given a bit of luck. Just recognise Elbrus is a lot higher so even if going in the summer there is a significant chance weather will play a part in your experience (how this differs from your experience of Toubkal is down to circumstances and your view of things).

Andy

In reply to rodw:

I would agree with most of the comments here in that I personally found Elbrus quite a lot more physically demanding than Toubkal (particularly the summit day).

As a bit of background we climbed Toubkal in 2 days from Imlil when there was snow down to the refuge. On Elbrus we spent the best part of a week on the mountain walking up from the valley floor carrying food/tents etc. which probably contributed to how tough I found the summit day. There was also a lot of snow which made it harder going as we needed to break trail.

Technically Elbrus is straightforward (although you do need to be aware of crevasses even on the normal south route) and if you're fit and well acclimatised it's certainly very achievable. You can also vary how tough you make the ascent by use of the chairlift/snowmobiles if you prefer. As others have mentioned the weather may play a significant part in your success on Elbrus, we were very lucky.

Just to add that we had a great experience in Russia and found everyone to be very friendly and helpful (this was in May 2013). We were unguided but used a company to sort permits and for transport from the airport to the starting valley.