UKC

Strict Liability - should it extend to train drivers?

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 wintertree 12 Apr 2015
Cyclists jump level crossing, nearly die "avec grande vitesse."

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/apr/12/paris-roubaix-cyclists-train-l...
 Chris the Tall 12 Apr 2015
In reply to wintertree:

Mark steel tells a great story about Derry airport, whose runway has a railway line crossing one corner of it. He was on a train and heard a plane thunder over head. At the station he then overheard the train driver asking his mate "who has priority at the runway?"
 sbc_10 12 Apr 2015
In reply to wintertree:

That's quite amazing in todays age. Very close to a tragedy.
They need to look out for the Lanterne on the front of the train!!
 Neil Williams 12 Apr 2015
In reply to wintertree:

What complete and total muppets. The lot of them should be disqualified.

Neil
 Neil Williams 12 Apr 2015
In reply to Chris the Tall:

Planes do, apparently:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Derry_Airport

Neil
 felt 12 Apr 2015
In reply to wintertree:

Nothing like "nearly died"! Never seen such a great fuss being made out nothing; most cyclists have much closer shaves every single time they go out on a ride.
1
 Neil Williams 12 Apr 2015
In reply to felt:

Consider how the train driver would have felt if he'd hit any of them. Some of them never drive again.

Neil
 The New NickB 12 Apr 2015
In reply to felt:

I am quite surprised the situation arose, it's not as if it was some local sportive.

I have a regular local 5k that involves running across a level crossing, it's a bugger when the barriers come down, there is a subway, but I reckon it adds 5 seconds.
 lowersharpnose 12 Apr 2015
In reply to wintertree:

Didn't something similar happen a few years ago on the TdF? IIRC, the rule was that no advantage was supposed to be gained from getting through the barriers, but some folk didn't realise and tried to make something of the split.
Jim C 13 Apr 2015
In reply to The New NickB:


> I have a regular local 5k that involves running across a level crossing, it's a bugger when the barriers come down......

Hurdles?

abseil 13 Apr 2015
In reply to Chris the Tall:

> Mark steel tells a great story about Derry airport, whose runway has a railway line crossing one corner of it. He was on a train and heard a plane thunder over head. At the station he then overheard the train driver asking his mate "who has priority at the runway?"

Decades ago some friends and I ACTUALLY drove onto a live runway [at a parachuting club] to see a small plane ACTUALLY at about 500 feet coming in to land on that runway. We panicked and quickly drove off it. Believe it or not it happened. I'm still mystified as to how on earth it could be possible even then to drive onto it.
 The New NickB 13 Apr 2015
In reply to abseil:

A wrong turn, generally once on the airfield the runway isn't fenced off. I've done a little bit of parachuting and often it is necessary to cross the runway after landing. As long as you followed the agreed procedure it wasn't a problem.
 Trangia 13 Apr 2015
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Consider how the train driver would have felt if he'd hit any of them. Some of them never drive again.

> Neil

Such cyclists would certainly never ride again!

Complete knobs to ignore the barrior
 Neil Williams 13 Apr 2015
In reply to Trangia:
Indeed. Nasty for all involved.

I read elsewhere that the marshals (or whatever they're called) stopped the group who did pass through until the ones who didn't caught up, and as such they gained no advantage, which is good.

Neil
Post edited at 09:28
 jkarran 13 Apr 2015
In reply to abseil:

Once you're on an airfield (often now also an industrial estate) it's pretty hard to tell what's what from the ground especially as light aircraft and gliders will often use the grass. I'm pretty sure you can drive onto my club's runway without having to open gates or make any special effort, we have gates we close at night (we're supposed to keep them closed but they never are) and they have very clear signs but the microlight club the other side of the field never used to have gates. We also have a public footpath running the length of the main runway which adds a little spice especially since you can't go around in a glider

jk
 Chris the Tall 13 Apr 2015
In reply to wintertree:

Looks like SNCF are demanding the police take action. Riders involved should be disqualified at least. The commissars claim that they can't identify all those who crossed seems like a pretty poor excuse.
abseil 13 Apr 2015
In reply to The New NickB:

> A wrong turn, generally once on the airfield the runway isn't fenced off. I've done a little bit of parachuting and often it is necessary to cross the runway after landing. As long as you followed the agreed procedure it wasn't a problem.

Thanks a lot for your reply and the information.
abseil 13 Apr 2015
In reply to jkarran:

> Once you're on an airfield (often now also an industrial estate) it's pretty hard to tell what's what from the ground... I'm pretty sure you can drive onto my club's runway without having to open gates or make any special effort...

Thanks a lot for your reply! That's interesting.
 petellis 13 Apr 2015
In reply to wintertree:

Highly motivated (paid in prize money) athletes in the heat of a race take risks shocker.... to be honest they appeared remarkably restrained to me. Some of them die every year in normal races so this isn't any different...

... and of course every year in this conutry people ar fined for jumping the barriers on foot, driving cars, on bikes, in tractors, some of them even get killed, they aren't racing.

OP wintertree 13 Apr 2015
In reply to petellis:

> Some of them die every year in normal races so this isn't any different...

Except for the train driver. And the police with the job of collecting dozens of body parts from the ballast...

> ... and of course every year in this conutry people ar fined for jumping the barriers on foot, driving cars, on bikes, in tractors, some of them even get killed, they aren't racing.

Very true. I've never understood the mindset of barrier jumping, level crossings make me nervous when they're up and you can see for miles.
 timjones 13 Apr 2015
In reply to petellis:

> Highly motivated (paid in prize money) athletes in the heat of a race take risks shocker.... to be honest they appeared remarkably restrained to me. Some of them die every year in normal races so this isn't any different...

It is very different if you involve an innocent train driver in your messy death.

> ... and of course every year in this conutry people ar fined for jumping the barriers on foot, driving cars, on bikes, in tractors, some of them even get killed, they aren't racing.

The point is that they are fined, why should people who are racing be exempted from punishment. It would set a useful precedent if the cyclists who pushed past these barriers were punished in order to
encourage the next idiots that are tempted to try it to think again.
 Chris the Tall 13 Apr 2015
In reply to petellis:

> Highly motivated (paid in prize money) athletes in the heat of a race take risks shocker.... to be honest they appeared remarkably restrained to me. Some of them die every year in normal races so this isn't any different...

Since the race was immediately neutralised their risks were pointless. There have been cases where an existing split has benefited from the chasers having to wait for a train (and in the case of Robert Millar, a train that never came) but the riders should have realised this wouldn't happen and going under the barriers was not a good move. And I don't know how many level crossings there were on the route, but it seems to me to be poor planning not to have sufficient marshalls to stop the riders if necessary, and not rely on the barriers
 petellis 13 Apr 2015
In reply to timjones:
> It is very different if you involve an innocent train driver in your messy death.

I'd guess that probably isn't in the minds of the racers with potential huge prize money and the career boosting prestige that a good placing in the queen of the classics races would bring. I think the race organisers know that and they are the ones that should mitigate such things.... but I am thinking to wholistically.

> The point is that they are fined, why should people who are racing be exempted from punishment. It would set a useful precedent if the cyclists who pushed past these barriers were punished in order to encourage the next idiots that are tempted to try it to think again.

I think (looking at the video) the point in this instance is that the barriers aren't up to the job to be honest, if they can go around them then in the heat of a race that is what they will do.

Fine the riders by all means but if thats all that is done then expect to be fining riders again when it inevitably happens again since it doesn't fix the problem (I think this is probably a problem that has been ocurring since the paris-roubaix began) and it doesn't allow for human nature. Again I am thinking the problem through which is a really dozy practice in todays world.
Post edited at 12:21
 Neil Williams 13 Apr 2015
In reply to petellis:

> I think (looking at the video) the point in this instance is that the barriers aren't up to the job to be honest, if they can go around them then in the heat of a race that is what they will do.

Automatic half-barriers are fairly standard for unmonitored rural level crossings, particularly in mainland Europe. The reason for them is so a vehicle on the crossing when they come down can escape without causing a train crash.

If the race organisers felt this was not sufficient, as indeed it seems it was not, they, at their cost, should have organised relevant additional mitigation, such as an additional manned barrier in advance of the crossing with communication with SNCF.

Neil
 timjones 13 Apr 2015
In reply to petellis:

> I'd guess that probably isn't in the minds of the racers with potential huge prize money and the career boosting prestige that a good placing in the queen of the classics races would bring. I think the race organisers know that and they are the ones that should mitigate such things.... but I am thinking to wholistically.

The other alternative is a long term ban if you blatantly ignore something so obvious. They can always factor that into their quest for prestige and money. there's nowt wrong with encouraging poeple to use brains as well as brawn.

> I think (looking at the video) the point in this instance is that the barriers aren't up to the job to be honest, if they can go around them then in the heat of a race that is what they will do.

> Fine the riders by all means but if thats all that is done then expect to be fining riders again when it inevitably happens again since it doesn't fix the problem (I think this is probably a problem that has been ocurring since the paris-roubaix began) and it doesn't allow for human nature. Again I am thinking the problem through which is a really dozy practice in todays world.

There are more ways of fixing the problem than physical restraint, they won;t have got to be so good at their sport without exceptional mental discipline, why not just ensure that they have adequate incentive to harness that discipline in other ways as well.
JMGLondon 13 Apr 2015
In reply to wintertree:

The tours cross loads of these so surely the riders know the race gets suspended (for a period) in the event of a train passing through? If not, the organisers & teams need to do a better job of briefing the riders on the morning of the stage. Not taking away from the stupidity of the riders that crossed.

Side note - humans (not just cyclists...) will take outrageous risks if the person in front of them does it.



 Chris the Tall 14 Apr 2015
In reply to wintertree:

Some fascinating footage has just been found on youtube !


@inrng This video is from the 1937 Paris-Nice: youtube.com/watch?v=59iDYFlOgUo&
 Mike Highbury 14 Apr 2015
In reply to Chris the Tall: Now having seen the picture of Sunday's rail crossing, can we all agree that the train driver should have been encouraged to get a move on?


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