UKC

Following on from JCM's tongue in cheek thread I thought some of the responses interesting.

So who on here could, or has, sacked someone?

I have carried out this fairly miserable task on 3 occasions.

The first was a case of incompetence, the second was a case of inability and the third was a case of abject stupidity.

And the people I sacked had some faults 'n all.

Still not very pleasant but unfortunately necessary.

In reply to Removed User:

Yes 5 times.
Most cases were a combination of the following.
Repeated stupid mistakes costing me money.
Repeated lateness despite being ready and stood at the door come finishing time.
Constantly on their mobile either texting or on Facebook.
Not actually completing their tasks, doing enough to squeak by short term but long term other people had to re do the job to finish it properly.

There were other problems as well, one of them just decided not to bother going to collage anymore and I only found out when the collage rang after 4 weeks, against my better judgement I kept him on and the same thing happened again 5 weeks later.

4 of these were apprentices and they are easier to let go because they don't tend to have the family commitments and the self entitled attitude of today's youth rubs me the wrong way anyway.
The 5th guy though was in his 40s with a disabled wife. He is a very skilled service engineer who had been on the sick for 5 years and I decided to give him a chance.
To start with he was excellent and quickly became my go to guy. Him and the wife started planning to buy a home and started looking round but he is the one who started taking shortcuts. Despite having sit downs with him and even warnings it was still happening and a good 50% of his work had to be re done and when the site was ofter 2 hours away from my workshop that costs serious money.
In the end he had to go and it was a very difficult thing to do knowing how much it would affect his life.
I do feel better about it now though, he is a friend of a friend and apparently has had 9 jobs in the last 2 years.

In reply to Removed User:

Many years ago I worked in a posey gear shop and found myself pretty much doing a management job. After a while the management of the chain interviewed me for a trainee manager/assistant manager post. While I was waiting for the results one of the other staff in the shop did some deliberate damage to some of the stock (smashed up a tent display, broken poles, ripped fly etc). He was a nice bloke but I think he was having some personal issues which were overspilling into work. I called head office to tell them that there was a situation which needed handling. You've guessed it - they told me I got the job now go and fire him! Great. "Come in, sit down. I'm boss now. You're fired." Didn't enjoy it all. In retrospect I could've handled it differently but I was very young at the time.

In reply to Removed User:

Twice.

First one was a graduate we had taken on seven days before the incident. It was a Friday staff night out and he proceeded to get extremely drunk on free booze, make sexual advances on a female staff member, make the comment to my boss that 'she was fu*cking loaded' and called me a 'fu*cking pussy' when I announced I was going home at 1:30am. He also made homophobic remarks to a staff member. He was gone at 9:30am the following Monday. It was the first time I'd ever dismissed anyone, but it wasn't too difficult given the events of the Friday night. His tears made it that bit harder though.

The second was for incompetence but fortunately the staff member in question knew he wasn't up to the job. He was graduate who interviewed so well and had a strong academic background but it was immediately clear that he didn't suit the job (trainee tax advisory position). It was almost a mutual decision in the end.

In reply to Axel Smeets:

Jeez you sacked someone for talking pish, drunk on a night out! I think most of us have done similar maybe not to that extent but usually its accompanied by a nervous Monday doing the rounds apologising.

In the construction industry hiring an firing is the norm. Lost count how many times I have had the message at the end sometimes even a text. As a site manger I do the same (not with a text).
I am in a strange situation at the moment of having a guy who I keep finding asleep in his van, hide rubbish including COSHH about the site as he cant be bothered carrying back, poor workmanship (Took two weeks to fit a single door and we are constantly back at it) Falsely fills in check sheets(Doubt he even bothers to go an check even) Committed some seriously dangerous acts that have destroyed plant. I am resigned to the fact that every so often the guy is going to get me in bother. The guy is long term with the client and they want him to stay and he gets paid for so company obviously don't want to remove him. Lost count how many meetings I have been to explaining my lose of management of him while he sits there not giving a f**k.

In reply to Dax H:

I was fired as an apprentice, it still wasn't nice. Luckily, I managed to get the job back 3 months later and I still work here today.

In reply to Removed User:

How easy is sacking someone nowadays, when there are so many procedures to be followed?

I remember several people who had 'problems' working on for years because they worked the system.

In reply to Removed User:

I was fired loads of times when I was a lot younger, few times for genuinely not being any good even though I tried hard and a few times for my general attitude. The last time was over 20 years ago now, although I am about to me made redundant which kind of feels like the same thing

In reply to Axel Smeets:

So you give a (presumably) young man free booze on a Friday night, he drinks it, and gets pissed. What a shocker! Amazingly, when pissed as a result, his little head overrules his big head and his dick takes over. What a surprise! And then you sack him - really?? If you had been present at and in charge of our staff nights out over the last thirty-odd years, you'd have been bloody busy on a Monday morning!

In reply to fmck:

Have you tried telling him to stay in his van and not touch anything!

In reply to Mostin3:

Its not nice for the employer either.

Sounds like you learnt from your boss. Sadly a lot don't and think they are entitled and can do what they want.

In reply to Jim C:
Not so straightforward. We have someone who generates a final written warning every two years and has a permanent and growing mountain of evidence backed grievances against him, mainly for bullying and corrupt practices (falsifying results). Somehow, he is still there, although weakness at board level is possibly as much to blame.

OP: Yes, a small number of times. Every time it has been someone who has been happy to let their colleagues pick up all their slack , all of the time, which doesn't sit well with me so it didn't give me sleepless nights. In the case of one guy it was frustrating as his knowledge and ability were ahead of most of his colleagues and he was very likeable, but he was rarely punctual and when he did appear he wouldn't do very much.

In reply to John Ww:

So your staff nights are full of homophbic tw*ts then?

In reply to fmck:

So what exactly does this other guy in the current 'strange situation' have to do before someone takes measures - stab someone? If the decision were yours, would you have sacked him by now?


In reply to Axel Smeets:

For the record, I think you did the right thing. Drunk or not, some actions warrant rapid dismissal.

In reply to Removed User:

When your working on a building site and ya sacking somebody, it usually goes something like.... Get ya tools and f*ck off lol. Easy!

In reply to marsbar:

I do have that attitude towards him as I tried everything else. No one wants to work with him and he wont sit in the canteen with the rest of the guys he sits in his van. He steals equipment on a regular basis but nothing big just small tools etc.
Recently I had to use him to do a job (Don't want to give too much away). He was going about it wrongly as I stood there telling him constantly what to do. He just kept ignoring the fact and carrying on his way that was going to destroy what we were working on. At the point the other workers were all telling him to stop I exploded! He said " there's need for that" I just kept shouting the sentence I had been telling him to do for the past ten minutes.
Once I calmed down I explained to him I have not lost it in over 20 years in the industry but he had taken me there. It helped for a couple of days he actually seemed to make an effort.(As it turned out it was too late he had already damaged it beyond repair)
Like you say I try as much as possible to get him to do safe jobs. I would love to get rid but as I say he makes the company money and if he went the client wouldn't replace probably. He has been there the longest of anyone so part of the wood work but when various people ask for work done more often than not they say they don't want him.

Ah well things could be worse. I shouldn't really be telling this but its a hell of a situation to find yourself in.

In reply to Removed User:
Oh my, loads. Mostly redundancies but several on performance and a couple of spectacular summary dismissals.

Redundancies are heartbreaking; the others are fine.





Edit; why don't I read spelling before hitting enter?

In reply to fmck:

Frustrating.

In reply to Removed User:

Not directly but my complaints have been the final nail in the coffin for someone (completely hopeless but works hard and likeable so I held off for months). Not fun.



This thread made me think of when I was walking past a Glasgow building site a few weeks ago on my lunch break, all I heard was-

'Reet, yooo! Git yer stuff and git tae f*ck, yer sacked!'

In reply to John Ww:

Asking me and other members of staff if one of our graduates was 'fuc*king queer' because he speaks in a mildly effeminate manner and then telling me (a director) that a female member of staff was 'going to get it hard tonight'....And you think that is acceptable?! Maybe standards at your firm/industry are different but that's entirely inappropriate where I work.

And then going up to the MD in front of other staff members and telling her how 'fuc*king loaded she is'.

All this after seven days at the firm.....the mind boggles what he would have been like when he had settled in and lost that new job shyness.

I had two female staff members call me the following morning to make a complaint, both regarding aggressive, sexual behaviour.

In our industry, socialising with clients is part of the job and this will involve alcohol and being around young females and people of a different sexual orientation. This pillock was clearly incapable of handling himself in such a situation.

A huge risk to the company and an all-round bad egg. Good riddance.

In reply to Removed User:

More times than I like to admit. But always, absolutely always, because I knew they were jeopardising the company and therefore everyone else's jobs - and invariably they seemed to be totally unaware, they thought that our resources were bottomless and they could carry on until they got another job elsewhere. (Conversely I have people who have worked for me for 20 years - I'm not always a monster.)

Most times this has happened within 12 months so there haven't been legal implications. The one time someone tried to threaten me she got her sons to phone up and threaten legal action - I told them in that case I would change the reasons for her dismissal from redundancy - which was being charitable - to gross misconduct - which could easily have been sustained, and would feature on any reference I was asked to give. Never heard any more, though no doubt the lawyers on here will have a fit.

In reply to Removed User:

Interesting if depressing thread. I am considering to not extend the contract of one of my team members when it runs out end of the year. Very nice person, but just not good enough. Feel shit just thinking about it,
CB

In reply to Axel Smeets:

I must be lucky with the environment I work in, my bosses, the MD and equally the women would probably find that pretty funny.

In reply to Mostin3:

Probably the women you work with know how it is and will pretend to find it funny because upsetting the status quo is not something they feel able to do.

In reply to marsbar:

Possibly the case, however, I honestly think the women are worse than the men in a lot of cases.

In reply to Axel Smeets:
Totally agree with your view and position here. Totally inappropriate behaviour. People need to understand that a "works do" is still work, and the behaviours shown will be noted. If you are unable to handle yourself when drunk then don't get drunk.

The closest I've come to sacking someone (or more accurately, getting them sacked) was when I was once following a couple of grad new starters down to the canteen and they were using racist language between themselves. I asked them to follow me into a meeting room at which point I told them that I was not going to ask their names or who their line manager was because then I would have to have them dismissed. However a repeat of any of the phrases used would be likely to end in summary and immediate dismissal.

In reply to Mostin3:

Homophobic, sexist and sexually threatening behaviour is funny. Hmmn. Your workplace is indeed a world away from mine.

In reply to Removed User:

Sorry, I didn't mean homophobic and sexist comments and sexually threatening behaviour, I more so meant that the new guy had a few too many ales on his first outing with new colleagues and didn't keep hold of his tongue.

On reflection, it was probably what left his mouth after doing the above that got him into trouble.

In reply to fmck:

What might happen if you told him to stay in the van all day as nobody will work with him (due to the poor work he does)?

In reply to Removed User:

Its an interesting debate about the "works do" incident. In this case I think the right thing was done but I would also accept that there has to be a degree of subjectivity i.e. on balance was this an error of judgment or was it an indication of a bigger problem? If he rang all 3 bells (racism, sexism and homophobia) in one night 7 days into his new employment then I think we can be safe that the correct decision was taken.

The first guy I sacked was simply out of his depth as a consultant. He'd been a sales rep for years and then got an MBA (that always hits my radar - but perhaps another thread?). I didn't hire him but ended up managing him. His main job was to write reports and when he told me that he was more of an editor than a writer then he raised the flag. There were many other things which came together to make the final decision.

The second was a girl who simply failed to do her job (data input) to any acceptable standard. IMHO data inputting is an aptitude thing and if you don't have it you never will. I tried with her for a very long time but, in the end she was so frustrated and miserable that I think I did her a favour.

The last one was hilarious. I had a new start who goes on 3 months probation. She seemed to do the job well enough but was not a particularly nice person and was not fitting well with the team. Its a small team which magnifies things a little but I was willing to live with her provided her work was up to scratch. Then I was driving to work and listening to the local radio who were running a feature on work colleagues who pretend to work hard but are really just blagging it. And on comes my new hire to tell the whole city that she always blags it and is proud of the fact. Unfortunately for her, all of her work colleagues heard her as well.

She was the easiest one to let go but in the end it is still a tough thing which I never undertake lightly.

In reply to fmck:

I'd be wondering about security marking tools and planting them for him to take, before searching his stuff and finding grounds for firing him...?

I can volunteer with all kinds of people (even bigots who'd dislike things about me if they knew), but him being paid to be like this is something else..

In reply to Axel Smeets:

I didn't say it was acceptable, but I do think it may have been predictable. Was he briefed about expected standards of conduct before the event? Was he warned about his conduct during the evening? Was he issued with a formal verbal or written warning after the event? Or did you just sack him on the spot because he got pissed, shouted his mouth off and upset some people. I'd love to have seen the outcome if he had decided to take his case to an industrial tribunal for wrongful dismissal.

In reply to John Ww:

TBH he wouldn't have stood a chance as he would likely still be in a probationary period.

In reply to Removed User:

Possibly, but not stated in the o.p.

JW

In reply to John Ww:

It was actually. As I understand it you have virtually no employment rights for the 1st 12 months.

In reply to Removed User:

I wonder how prevalent a 'resign or be sacked' type ultimatum is?

I'm not in a position where I'd deal with sackings per se but if it had company implications ie. we'd get sued (sex/race discrimination etc ) or there was substantial dishonesty leading to criminal/regulatory intervention then I'd be made aware.

In reply to Indy:

There is a "with cause" and "without cause". The former requires significant documentation, full procedural protocols to be followed and no severance for the individual. The latter is basically "if you go quietly we will pay you X amount and you won't have anything on your employment record.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Er, where exactly is it specifically stated in the o.p?

In reply to Removed User:

Yes, wonder how much it goes on.

In reply to John Ww:

It says they took him on 7 days earlier.

In reply to John Ww:


First week in the company is a really big clue.

In reply to The New NickB:

Yes, thanks for that, but I can actually read. My question is, unless specifically stated, do all jobs in all forms of employment, have a "probationary period"?

In reply to John Ww:


You dont get the right to claim for unfair dismissal for two years (excluding automatically unfair cases such as discrimination).

In reply to dissonance:


But you can claim wrongful dismissal at any time. I think all employment has a probationary period. Normally 3-6 months.

In reply to Gone for good:

Wrongful dismissal is different though since thats about keeping to the contract and hence will vary massively.
About the only bit which is shared is statutory notice periods. Which for less than one months service is zero (after that its 1 week until 2 years and then increments).
This can be got around anyway with pay in lieu of notice.

Where probationary periods generally come in is that 1 weeks notice is both ways and hence companies will often want to increase it to at least a month once they are happy the person suits the job. Since it can be awkward finding a replacement with a weeks notice.

In reply to Axel Smeets:

At the free booze bit I thought sounds like my type of company , knows how to kick back after a hard years work e,c,t
Now I'm so grateful I don't work for a Nazi like you ! Friday night on the booze is defo not work time !

In reply to Removed User: Read the post Colza. Not putting up with misogynistic rasists doesn't make you a nazi And being drunk isn't an excuse

In reply to John Ww:

I've been reliably informed that....
A probationary period is a purely individual per employment contract construct as there is no law relating to probationary periods.
Probationary periods shouldn't be excessive lengths of time i.e more than 6 months?
Employee's should be given formal performance reviews (thats a post in itself) at regular stages.
Once the employee has satisfactorily completed the probationary period they should be told there appointment has been confirmed.

As stated elsewhere you can no longer claim unfair dismissal for a period of 2 years BUT if the company doesn't go through a fair dismissals process then you can claim 'Wrongful Dismissal' which doesn't require any service length.

In reply to Indy:

For unpleasant behaviour outside of work while not on business I would have wanted a complaint from a member of staff over the issue and it to affect performance at work.

I've had a more complicated version of this and sacking might seem easiest, and dismissal in the first year is virtually without reproach, but really you need to be fair. What if it appears to set a precedence. What if you later choose to do nothing about a longer standing employee who does something similar to someone you value less.

At the very least you should probably reconsider a work policy that encourages excessive drinking and has lead to disciplinary proceedings.

In reply to Philip:

I have to admit that on a personal level the blurring of lines between work life and home/social life worrying when it comes to employment.

In reply to Colza:

I'm quite surprised that there are people on this thread that don't feel the lad's behaviour was worthy of dismissal. I'd question the assertion that work nights out are 'out of work time'. If someone committed a serious criminal offence during out of work time, does that mean it should just be ignored by the employer because it wasn't during office hours? Of course it doesn't. Regardless of the argument whether work nights out are 'work time', what his actions did show that he was incapable of interacting appropriately with females and people he perceived to be gay.

This was someone who would be required to do overnight stays across the country with other members of staff. Many of them would be female. And, like most people when they stay away on business, the opportunity to have a few drinks would be there. Given that two female members of staff had made a complaint against him - leering, touching, suggestive comments - there was a risk of an incident occurring again when he was staying away with female staff. Both complainants the following morning made it quite clear they didn't want to work away with him as they felt at risk. This risk had to be removed.

Many naysayers will be relieved to learn that staff issues have recently been taken out of my hands somewhat as we have been acquired by a very large corporate entity. Shortly after we were acquired, I met with the Director of HR to discuss policies etc and iron out a few issues. The incident discussed on this thread was brought up in our conversation. I explained what had happened and the action we had taken and asked if the right thing had been done. I suppose when you run a small business (we had 13 staff at the time), there is a worry that you may get things wrong or perhaps not follow the letter of the law correctly, given that you don't always have access to expensive advice which larger companies take for granted. However, when I posed the question to the new HR Director, she almost spat out her tea with laughter. She made it quite clear that there had been multiple incidents during the evening which warranted dismissal and the lad in question would be not have a leg to stand on should the decision have been challenged.

I'd question the Nazi label too. Not putting up with homophobia and aggressive sexual behaviour? You may want to revisit your history books.

In reply to wbo:

Question is was this work time? if it was classed as work time was he being paid? and if not why not?

While the behavior was abhorrent the fact remains that if it was out of work time where are the grounds for dismissal?

In reply to mwr72:

That would be the difference between salary and hourly paid.

In reply to marsbar:

Does the contract say 40 hours p/w or is he just expected to be considered as being in work time 24/7 if he's in the company of another colleague?

In reply to mwr72:

I doubt the guy was paid by the hour. A salary for the job more like with standard contract clauses about travel, nights away and longer days when required.

A works social event, with folk from work, paid for by work. You really think it is separate from work?

Some companies have a meal out with alcohol as part of the interview process. This checks that you have table manners (mouth shut when eating and can use cutlery etc), can make appropriate conversation and don't neck the drink. Very useful if socialising with clients is important.

In reply to Removed User:

I was visiting a mine in South Africa when I witnessed a shift boss give an instant dismisal to a guy we caught smoking underground. It was pretty traumatic and the culprit broke down in tears as he had a large family to support. Not pleasant.There is no social security and high unemployment. But the rules on smoking underground are rigorously enforced because they put everyone's lives at risk.

In reply to mwr72:



Leaving Co workers feeling threatened is not on regardless of if it is during work time or not.
We do a lot of training courses that involve a few nights away, normally in the hotel suggested by whatever manufacturer is training us for their products and those hotels can have anyone from the CEO down to a service engineer staying in them.
I give my lads the company credit card with no restrictions on food or drink but they know they need to maintain a professional standard at all times.
Getting mashed and touching up the CEO's wife at the bar would result in my distributorship being revoked and the lads would be out of a job.

In reply to mwr72:

This isn't a subjective question. The employee's behaviour would be considered by most employers to be gross misconduct (sexual harrassment, homophobic abuse, bringing the company's name into disrepute etc), whether it happened in work hours or not is utterly irrelevant. His future employment with the company was made impossible by his own actions toward other employees.

In reply to Axel Smeets:

That may all be correct , I'm just glad I don't work for you , with you or you company ! Also glad I don't socialize with you or any of your colleges as that is work too ! What a sad existence , I don't see why you couldn't of took the guy to one side and had a word with him and explained he needed to change his ways ( at least given him chance !

In reply to solomonkey and others:

It's very rare that I'm actually surprised by the differences of opinion that crop up on UKC.

This one however seems so clear cut - the employes behaviour when drunk is so far beyond a personal red line regardless of wether it occurred on work time or not.

Why can't you take them to one side? Consider the valued employees who he has harassed and offended? You want to send them a clear message that they are valued and their safety and welfare are valued. They're more valuable to your firm than someone whose been there a week and has demonstrated multiple times in multiple ways that they've not worth the effort. Perhaps getting fired after a week will have taught them a valuable lesson.

People can do daft things at work dos and where I am there's lot of forgive and forget going around, but I seriously doubt it would have stretched as far as this chump.

In reply to wintertree:

Ditto.

In reply to Removed User:
I really need to get my eyes tested. I thought this said spanking someone!

In reply to solomonkey:


With all due respect, what f***ing planet are you on???

In reply to solomonkey:

The company I used to work for got rid of the MD for similar behavior to that described by Axel Smeets. (& no, it wasn't just an excuse to get rid of them, it was a principled stand taken by the owners of a company that works in construction; hardly the the least tolerant of type of Company, one might expect).

When you're at a Company function, you are representing the Company. Bad behavior ought to have consequences.