UKC

Hi

I am 44 and have run on and off for 20+ years. In last couple of years I have run 3 marathons now with PB of 3.34. However, I struggle with a concept...

All the marathon training plans /advice I have ever read state that the weekly long run should be run at a considerably slower pace than marathon target pace. I understand that this is to prevent overload on body, reduce injury risk etc. I also understand that shorter runs can be used to develop speed and strength via intervals, hill work or whatever.

However, if you NEVER run a really long run with every mile at your target race pace how do you KNOW that you’ll cope with that pace over 26 miles on the day?

So for example, I need to run at under 8 min miles if I am to knock 5 mins or so off my PB. So... I run short runs at say 7 min miles. I then run my long runs at 8:30 or even 9 min miles. But how do I ever KNOW if my body can keep churning out 8 min miles for 26 miles? Is it just a complete leap of faith on race day? Or is there something I’m missing?

Thanks for your advice.

In reply to climberchristy: Some people race a 20 in the build up at about marathon pace, but others feel that takes too much out of you. I used to try to do 4 or 5 miles at slightly quicker than race pace towards the end of a long run - so maybe 14 miles at MP+60s then 5 miles at MP-20s then a mile steady to warm down. Gives you the feeling of going hard when you're knackered.

In reply to climberchristy:

You don't.

That part is bourne of experience. I've not worked it out yet. I fade over the last 6miles. The ideal race is split into 4 sections. A two mile section, two of 9 miles and then the last 6. Each section run at a faster pace. Which I've only managed once and that was by running at my LSR pace to start.

In reply to andy:

Cheers for that. Might give that a try.

In reply to climberchristy:





You trust your training..

There's lots of awful advice on line and lots of coaches nowadays.. you should be running some of your long runs as a hard work out either a solid hard pace (not MP), or picking up the pace for sections, or finishing at MP. Many run their long runs way way too slow.

In reply to climberchristy:

Don't take my advice, as I've never got a marathon right, but that said, the last one was probably bad luck more than anything else.

I did lots of fairly hilly (because my local runs are) 10-12 mile runs at target marathon pace and regular 20 milers at 30-40 seconds slower than target marathon pace. I also ran a 20 mile race at target marathon pace 5 weeks before the marathon. This was all based on a sub 3 hour target.

I fell down a utilities trench 3 weeks before my marathon and ended up running the marathon carrying an injury, so my main advice is don't fall down holes in the road!

In reply to Roadrunner5:
Thanks. I agree lots seem to run longer runs at a pace way too slow.

In reply to The New NickB:
Thanks for response. Sorry to hear about the trench. Better luck in next race!

In reply to climberchristy:

I know the concept does vary, although I always think about 50 secs slower per mile than race pace is about right.

During the build up to London I was training with a number of guys in the week who ended up running between 2:18 and 2:30 in London. One of their staple sessions each week on a Thurs night was up to 16 miles tempo at race pace. It may vary slightly, but they would alternate 3k at race pace with 1k (recovery!) and narginally slower than race pace. so maybe 3k at 3:20 per k with 1k at 3:30 per k and just kept it going.

Anyway my point is that in addition to the traditional long run they were doing 16 miles a week at race pace - which i guess takes some of the worry out of the overall pace of the long run. bloody hard session to do week in/week out!

In reply to climberchristy:

I've never really understood this either. Upping both the pace and the distance t the same time just doesn't feel like a good strategy,.. .. .. ???

In reply to climberchristy:

Nothing really to add, but I'm glad it's not just me who struggles conceptually with this! I have been racing 5kms and 10km for a couple of years, and just signed up for my first half. I have been struggling with the thing.

Thanks to other contributers - some useful thoughts there!

In reply to bowls:

16miles at marathon pace shouldn't be too hard. Bear in mind these guys will be capable of running 13miles at half marathon pace. Running slower for another 20mins shouldn't be too tough. It's an hour and a half session.

The problems come when you're a 3:30-4:00 and above. 16miles is over 2hours. Approaching 3 in some cases.

This one size fits all is where people are struggling to understand why the advice in forums appears to be inconsistent and in some cases wrong.

There are two purposes of a long run. And so there should ideally be two types. One is time in your feet and the other is getting used to running at long distances at marathon pace. I don't think one session can replicate that.

In reply to DancingOnRock:

I agree, but I do think the double long run is a great addition.

But I have my slower clients take their midweek run up to 90 mins > 1:45.. the weekend long run 2:30-3:00.

I'm not a fan of the 'time on the feet' phrase as I think it encourages slow running, but 'time trained' is probably more fitting. But I am a big fan of the twice weekly longish run, as long as their bodies can take it. The problem is a long run of 16-18, a longish run of 12-13 and they are already at 30 miles for the week.

Of course there is no 'one size fits all' but there are general well tried approaches which are worth looking at. For example harder sessions during the long run, or fast finishes bringing that 'tired feeling' earlier on in the run meaning the long run doesn't have to be as long. Some runners will do 10-20 long runs of 23 miles + in a marathon training cycle and then die off come mile 20 in the marathon as they've never got their body to cope with running fast when tired.

In reply to Roadrunner5:
I agree.

I'm just saying for slower runners those distances are either shorter or the times are longer.

For instance I'm a 4hour runner and my 'long' midweek run is 'only' 10miles long. At marathon pace that's 90mins.

My plan over the summer is to take the Sunday runs up a notch and see what happens. Running 18miles in 3hours is a long time out. Maybe 16 in 2 hours 30 should be my target with the last 3miles at marathon pace. Although I've seen last 25% banded about.

In reply to climberchristy:

Thanks to everyone who has contributed. Some interesting ideas. More and more I am coming to the conclusion that really you need two long runs: one slow(ish) to develop stamina or 'time on feet' (although I can see why one contributor rightly doesn't like that term much); one faster at marathon race pace for some if not all of the run.

Two long runs in a week would be a struggle for me: my running is reduced to 3 sessions per week as I train for climbing (or just climb!) 3 times per week too. So, I'm thinking I need to stick to one long run per week but alternate weeks between a slower one and a tempo one.

Cheers for the advice everyone and happy running!

Christy

In reply to climberchristy:

I wouldnt do weekly long long runs

The week dominates most peoples cycles when it need not. I do my long runs on a 10 day cycle often. Meb ran an 8 day cycle for Boston, a week can force too much into too little time.

In reply to climberchristy:

An excellent book to move your training on a level, with training plans ranging from 55 to 100+ mpw, is Advanced Marathoning by Pfitzinger & Douglas.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Advanced-Marathoning-Peter-Pfitzinger/dp/0736074600...

As well as very good training plans, it gives a very good explanation of all the various types of running you should be doing.

In reply to steelbru:

Thanks for that

In reply to Roadrunner5:

Good point thanks. You're right - we all just think in weeks when there's no reason why we have to.

In reply to climberchristy: thinking in x runs per week is a big problem. I know for sure if I did 16 miles at 15 , 20 secs off my half pace I would be cooked for the rest of the week. If you have to run club league races to do, then a weekly Sunday long run can bea miserable experience