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We seem reluctant to talk about accidents in this country despite the obvious curiosity they create. With fatal or serious accidents we naturally want to be sensitive to those involved, for more minor accidents it’s perhaps more a case of embarrassment or the judgements that come with making an accident public. Prior to last night I guess I thought accidents only happen to other people, novices or those attempting hard bold routes. One of the reasons we are so interested in accidents is to confirm that the mistake could never happen to us, ignoring the fact that if you have thousands of people out climbing on a regular basis accidents are going to happen out of shear bad luck simply by chance when someone did everything right (find a good example five down on the rock and ice website accidents page).
However we can though learn a lot from accidents both from the physical (holds breaking, gear ripping etc.) and the mental aspects. With that in mind here’s what happened to me last night. I consider myself to be fairly experienced climber, although I have only been climbing for 3 to 4 years, and not especially bold or cautious. I’ve lead a few E1’s but am mainly consolidating at HVS. I’ve taken a few falls, mostly very safe ones on well protected 5b cracks and have never had a piece of gear fail on me or hit the ground before.
Last night I was climbing on the newly cleaned north buttress in the gorge. We’d done two HVS’s already and the choice was between fitting in another climb in or heading for dinner. I elected to lead Carlos J G, what looked like a short, well protected layback crack. I got one good wire in on the right and then, reluctantly, what I though was a good no.1 cam in a solid hand jam. I managed to place another very dubious small wire in quite a parallel crack (small enough that I had no cams that would fit) and moved up. I then placed another poor wire in a dubious shallow placement and then finally what I thought was a bomber wire slotted rightwards into a crack (so that I could not see it from straight on). I pulled hard to seat the wire but rather than biting into the crack it flew straight out of the bottom depositing me, back first, on the floor with all three of the pieces of gear (excluding the too low first piece) there with me. I managed to hobble home and after a visit to A&E this morning found out luckily that it is just soft tissue damage and nothing is broken.
What went wrong and how it could have been avoided
With hindsight the lessons I learned are fairly obvious. The most obvious to be more careful seating wires, especially those that you cannot see! However this would have been ok had the gear below not failed. This was the result of moving upwards with dubious gear rather than spending the time to improve it or climbing back down. The crack was awkward to use and I was not comfortable enough to place gear easily but I probably could have improved the cam I placed or placed a better wire just above it. I shouldn't have assumed that I could get better gear above or that I would find a more comfortable stance to place gear from.
You need confidence to climb close to your limit and I was pretty confident I could do the moves required but in this case this led to over-confidence as it wasn’t my failure to do the moves which led to my fall. The fact that the route has had few ascents should have led to a degree of extra caution.
One of the parts of this I find most worrying is the cam. As far as I could tell it was a solid placement (albeit in limestone) in the middle of the range in a parallel crack. It was a 3CU which I worry given the large ridges on the cam lobes give a poor surface area to rock contact. Also obviously cams placements are more difficult to quality asses than nuts.
Hopefully I have not done any lasting damage to either my physical self or my psyche. Constructive comments, insights, others experiences welcome.
However we can though learn a lot from accidents both from the physical (holds breaking, gear ripping etc.) and the mental aspects. With that in mind here’s what happened to me last night. I consider myself to be fairly experienced climber, although I have only been climbing for 3 to 4 years, and not especially bold or cautious. I’ve lead a few E1’s but am mainly consolidating at HVS. I’ve taken a few falls, mostly very safe ones on well protected 5b cracks and have never had a piece of gear fail on me or hit the ground before.
Last night I was climbing on the newly cleaned north buttress in the gorge. We’d done two HVS’s already and the choice was between fitting in another climb in or heading for dinner. I elected to lead Carlos J G, what looked like a short, well protected layback crack. I got one good wire in on the right and then, reluctantly, what I though was a good no.1 cam in a solid hand jam. I managed to place another very dubious small wire in quite a parallel crack (small enough that I had no cams that would fit) and moved up. I then placed another poor wire in a dubious shallow placement and then finally what I thought was a bomber wire slotted rightwards into a crack (so that I could not see it from straight on). I pulled hard to seat the wire but rather than biting into the crack it flew straight out of the bottom depositing me, back first, on the floor with all three of the pieces of gear (excluding the too low first piece) there with me. I managed to hobble home and after a visit to A&E this morning found out luckily that it is just soft tissue damage and nothing is broken.
What went wrong and how it could have been avoided
With hindsight the lessons I learned are fairly obvious. The most obvious to be more careful seating wires, especially those that you cannot see! However this would have been ok had the gear below not failed. This was the result of moving upwards with dubious gear rather than spending the time to improve it or climbing back down. The crack was awkward to use and I was not comfortable enough to place gear easily but I probably could have improved the cam I placed or placed a better wire just above it. I shouldn't have assumed that I could get better gear above or that I would find a more comfortable stance to place gear from.
You need confidence to climb close to your limit and I was pretty confident I could do the moves required but in this case this led to over-confidence as it wasn’t my failure to do the moves which led to my fall. The fact that the route has had few ascents should have led to a degree of extra caution.
One of the parts of this I find most worrying is the cam. As far as I could tell it was a solid placement (albeit in limestone) in the middle of the range in a parallel crack. It was a 3CU which I worry given the large ridges on the cam lobes give a poor surface area to rock contact. Also obviously cams placements are more difficult to quality asses than nuts.
Hopefully I have not done any lasting damage to either my physical self or my psyche. Constructive comments, insights, others experiences welcome.
18
In reply to sheelba:
I've seen someone else fall off (into a lake) while "testing" a placement to check it was seated properly. I guess if you are really going to pull hard on a piece to check its in, make sure you are in balance and holding on well enough just in case it isn't!
I've seen someone else fall off (into a lake) while "testing" a placement to check it was seated properly. I guess if you are really going to pull hard on a piece to check its in, make sure you are in balance and holding on well enough just in case it isn't!
Thanks for the feedback. Have you see this?
youtube.com/watch?v=MW1teH6k9xo&
I've had cams pull out on limestone, I've fallen on cams on limestone and they've stayed put. I once took a factor 2ish fall onto a small BD C3 cam and it somehow blew all the camstops; and I hit the deck. I sold all my three lobe cams and only use the four lobes now. I NEVER use cam in winter now - only hexes/pegs.
Basically cams in smooth limestone should be a last resort. Be careful with your choice of placement.
youtube.com/watch?v=MW1teH6k9xo&
I've had cams pull out on limestone, I've fallen on cams on limestone and they've stayed put. I once took a factor 2ish fall onto a small BD C3 cam and it somehow blew all the camstops; and I hit the deck. I sold all my three lobe cams and only use the four lobes now. I NEVER use cam in winter now - only hexes/pegs.
Basically cams in smooth limestone should be a last resort. Be careful with your choice of placement.
3
In reply to sheelba:
I'm thinking of replacing my cams with totem cams as i'm told they have better holding power on limestone....going to cost a bit though :/
I'm thinking of replacing my cams with totem cams as i'm told they have better holding power on limestone....going to cost a bit though :/
In reply to ERU:
Try placing a cam with the shaft pointing downwards 'through' the crack - that is what I do (notwithstanding a judgement on any likely angle of fall).
Try placing a cam with the shaft pointing downwards 'through' the crack - that is what I do (notwithstanding a judgement on any likely angle of fall).
Post edited at 16:21
In reply to sheelba:
At the risk of hijacking the thread somewhat, as an MRT trainee this is the part that interests me. If you suspected a break, why did you not call the emergency services? Hobbling home on a potentially broken limb could have done you some serious damage.
> I managed to hobble home and after a visit to A&E this morning found out luckily that it is just soft tissue damage and nothing is broken.
At the risk of hijacking the thread somewhat, as an MRT trainee this is the part that interests me. If you suspected a break, why did you not call the emergency services? Hobbling home on a potentially broken limb could have done you some serious damage.
2
4
In reply to sheelba:
I don't know if I'm the only one but I tend to place cams as a last resort, I much prefer nuts.
Al
I don't know if I'm the only one but I tend to place cams as a last resort, I much prefer nuts.
Al
5
In reply to TobyA:
I was taught that a good system is to give 5 tugs of increasingly harder force rather than going straight for the big tug
> I've seen someone else fall off (into a lake) while "testing" a placement to check it was seated properly. I guess if you are really going to pull hard on a piece to check its in, make sure you are in balance and holding on well enough just in case it isn't!
I was taught that a good system is to give 5 tugs of increasingly harder force rather than going straight for the big tug
7
In reply to sheelba:
Good on you for posting this.
I can't help thinking that your choice of route was also a contributing factor. Layback cracks are notoriously hard to protect, so any route that involves laybacking so close to the ground is likely to carry a fair degree of deckout potential.
Neil
Good on you for posting this.
I can't help thinking that your choice of route was also a contributing factor. Layback cracks are notoriously hard to protect, so any route that involves laybacking so close to the ground is likely to carry a fair degree of deckout potential.
Neil
4
In reply to sheelba:
Thanks for the info, its always good to hear about these things in a constructive manner.
When seating nuts I always try to make sure I'm in a stable position with a good hand hold so that a nut coming out wont cause me to fall off. I've had plenty of nuts ping out of cracks in the same situation, especially on limestone where the cracks are often funny shapes/flared out of sight. Sometimes this means you can't really yank them in, if you are in a tenuous position already, and have to rely on a more gentle tug. The above is obvious I know. I'm guessing you didn't mean to put all your weight on the nut when you seated it?
Conventional wisdom is 'don't trust cams in limestone' and your experience seems to back that up! Its not a rock that lends itself to decent cam placements, and clearly even ones that look solid aren't. It just seems to be too slippery for cams to bite properly. I always try to use nuts rather than cams on limestone, and try not to be in a situation where only a cam is between you and the ground.
Glad you suffered no lasting damage!
Thanks for the info, its always good to hear about these things in a constructive manner.
When seating nuts I always try to make sure I'm in a stable position with a good hand hold so that a nut coming out wont cause me to fall off. I've had plenty of nuts ping out of cracks in the same situation, especially on limestone where the cracks are often funny shapes/flared out of sight. Sometimes this means you can't really yank them in, if you are in a tenuous position already, and have to rely on a more gentle tug. The above is obvious I know. I'm guessing you didn't mean to put all your weight on the nut when you seated it?
Conventional wisdom is 'don't trust cams in limestone' and your experience seems to back that up! Its not a rock that lends itself to decent cam placements, and clearly even ones that look solid aren't. It just seems to be too slippery for cams to bite properly. I always try to use nuts rather than cams on limestone, and try not to be in a situation where only a cam is between you and the ground.
Glad you suffered no lasting damage!
In reply to sheelba:
Your thread title is revealing and shows you are having useful reflections.
My blindingly obvious wisdom is, in falls, make every possible effort to avoid hitting
1. the deck [worst],
2. a ledge [2nd worst],
3. a slab [3rd worst].
I hope your injuries heal quickly, and thanks for posting.
Your thread title is revealing and shows you are having useful reflections.
My blindingly obvious wisdom is, in falls, make every possible effort to avoid hitting
1. the deck [worst],
2. a ledge [2nd worst],
3. a slab [3rd worst].
I hope your injuries heal quickly, and thanks for posting.
2
In reply to GridNorth:
Maybe on slimy polished limestone but on other rock like grit this approach would seriously limit your gear options.
As a side question, anyone know how well hexes cam on limestone and smooth surfaces?
> I don't know if I'm the only one but I tend to place cams as a last resort, I much prefer nuts.
Maybe on slimy polished limestone but on other rock like grit this approach would seriously limit your gear options.
As a side question, anyone know how well hexes cam on limestone and smooth surfaces?
In reply to sheelba:
Do you mind me asking what make of cam this was that popped? just wondering as camalots have a higher camming angle than WC and DMM cams so I'd expect them to be more prone to skidding out.
Do you mind me asking what make of cam this was that popped? just wondering as camalots have a higher camming angle than WC and DMM cams so I'd expect them to be more prone to skidding out.
In reply to sheelba:
Well done on posting such a thing. As you say, it is worthwhile.
Or just to remind ourselves of what sort of things go wrong.
* Tugging to seat a wire in such a way that if it rips you come off is a bit of a rookie error (sorry!), especially if you're placing it blind or semi-blind, but an error which we all might be guilty of on occasion.
* Cams in parallel cracks in limestone -- we'll, I'd place them, but I wouldn't trust them.
Well done on posting such a thing. As you say, it is worthwhile.
> One of the reasons we are so interested in accidents is to confirm that the mistake could never happen to us, ...
Or just to remind ourselves of what sort of things go wrong.
* Tugging to seat a wire in such a way that if it rips you come off is a bit of a rookie error (sorry!), especially if you're placing it blind or semi-blind, but an error which we all might be guilty of on occasion.
* Cams in parallel cracks in limestone -- we'll, I'd place them, but I wouldn't trust them.
1
In reply to sheelba:
Great thread! Glad you're OK. I have been climbing for about 10 years and I have come to realize that it is very difficult to access the reliability of gear. In my experience about 50% of gear fails in a fall. My coping strategy is to place twice as much of it.
Great thread! Glad you're OK. I have been climbing for about 10 years and I have come to realize that it is very difficult to access the reliability of gear. In my experience about 50% of gear fails in a fall. My coping strategy is to place twice as much of it.
3
In reply to Kirill:
Eeek, that makes me think you are doing something wrong, or you climb lots of hard routes on uncooperative rock!? I have pulled runners in falls but I would guess in the 5% to 10% range at worst.
> In my experience about 50% of gear fails in a fall.
Eeek, that makes me think you are doing something wrong, or you climb lots of hard routes on uncooperative rock!? I have pulled runners in falls but I would guess in the 5% to 10% range at worst.
4
In reply to TobyA:
Yes, I am definitely doing something wrong, half of the time. But I don't know which half.
Yes, I am definitely doing something wrong, half of the time. But I don't know which half.
10
In reply to Kirill:
Sorry, but if that's your experience then you're not placing gear very well.
> In my experience about 50% of gear fails in a fall.
Sorry, but if that's your experience then you're not placing gear very well.
9
In reply to sheelba:
For various reasons I've been pondering about my attitude to gear this week, namely do I place enough/quality/at the right time to keep me safe, are my systems adequate? Its probably been too long since I last did this and is a useful/sobering exercise to do from time to time.
From reading your story the main bit that would worry me is having four placements blow (nut being placed, 2 dubious nuts, 1 cam) on a short route rather than the cams in limestone issue. Personally, I normally operate on "if this fails, will the next piece stop me decking?" policy. If yes, carry on climbing, if not, put in more gear and repeat the process until you're happy.
On occasion you'll not have the luxury of available placements but at least in these cases you're normally fully aware of the consequences.
Anyway, glad you're alright and don't let it put you off!
For various reasons I've been pondering about my attitude to gear this week, namely do I place enough/quality/at the right time to keep me safe, are my systems adequate? Its probably been too long since I last did this and is a useful/sobering exercise to do from time to time.
From reading your story the main bit that would worry me is having four placements blow (nut being placed, 2 dubious nuts, 1 cam) on a short route rather than the cams in limestone issue. Personally, I normally operate on "if this fails, will the next piece stop me decking?" policy. If yes, carry on climbing, if not, put in more gear and repeat the process until you're happy.
On occasion you'll not have the luxury of available placements but at least in these cases you're normally fully aware of the consequences.
Anyway, glad you're alright and don't let it put you off!
1
In reply to SenzuBean:
Sorry that advice may apply to novices but to experienced climbers climbing something that is actually tricky for them it really makes little sense.
> I was taught that a good system is to give 5 tugs of increasingly harder force rather than going straight for the big tug
Sorry that advice may apply to novices but to experienced climbers climbing something that is actually tricky for them it really makes little sense.
1
In reply to sheelba:
Besides the other points made, sometimes, even if we don't like it. S##t happens.
Sometimes that s##t is harder than we are, sometimes we learn from it, sometimes we miss it.
As much as I hate reflective practice (when its a forced exercise), it is a valuable tool. +1 for the public posting.
How many people actually try out their gear fully? Its all placed in judgement with what experience is available, I normally back down or back up when I think I'm in danger - if possible. And to be honest, rarely fall on trad. However there are many times when I climb and I think the gear is OK (or know it's dubious) and keep going. But that's part of the game. Risk and risk management.
In reply to MR dude, personally, if I can get to A&E under my own steam then that's what I'll do. I guess its an extension of being self sufficient and taking responsibility for myself. But that too may be naive or fool hardy.
Getting over the mental issues after an accident.... I have no advice to offer, but would be interested to hear your experience when you next tie on. Good luck and stay lucky!
Besides the other points made, sometimes, even if we don't like it. S##t happens.
Sometimes that s##t is harder than we are, sometimes we learn from it, sometimes we miss it.
As much as I hate reflective practice (when its a forced exercise), it is a valuable tool. +1 for the public posting.
How many people actually try out their gear fully? Its all placed in judgement with what experience is available, I normally back down or back up when I think I'm in danger - if possible. And to be honest, rarely fall on trad. However there are many times when I climb and I think the gear is OK (or know it's dubious) and keep going. But that's part of the game. Risk and risk management.
In reply to MR dude, personally, if I can get to A&E under my own steam then that's what I'll do. I guess its an extension of being self sufficient and taking responsibility for myself. But that too may be naive or fool hardy.
Getting over the mental issues after an accident.... I have no advice to offer, but would be interested to hear your experience when you next tie on. Good luck and stay lucky!
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Alright then.
> Sorry that advice may apply to novices but to experienced climbers climbing something that is actually tricky for them it really makes little sense.
Alright then.
In reply to SenzuBean:
You don't really need to test every placement or always have time to, some just clearly are bomber, others need seating, some will be very difficult to retrieve if you seat them, some you only really have enough time to place and go before you pump out.
You don't really need to test every placement or always have time to, some just clearly are bomber, others need seating, some will be very difficult to retrieve if you seat them, some you only really have enough time to place and go before you pump out.
4
In reply to CurlyStevo:
I always test or seat gear, moving up without doing so risks the rope flicking it out. I've seen too many wires lift and drop out when they're not seated.
You can't test them when your flying through the air...
It appears the OP thought some of his gear was bomber, but it wasn't...
I always test or seat gear, moving up without doing so risks the rope flicking it out. I've seen too many wires lift and drop out when they're not seated.
You can't test them when your flying through the air...
It appears the OP thought some of his gear was bomber, but it wasn't...
2
In reply to CurlyStevo:
I thought those went without saying. I did only mean suspect placements.
> You don't really need to test every placement or always have time to, some just clearly are bomber, others need seating, some will be very difficult to retrieve if you seat them, some you only really have enough time to place and go before you pump out.
I thought those went without saying. I did only mean suspect placements.
In reply to sheelba:
If I'm doubtful I downclimb if possible and pull test from somewhere safe below (the ground, a big ledge or by a good runner on another rope). The downside is if you give it a full test you have weighted the rope. I am personally happy to do this at a big ledge or the ground but others may say you have to avoid this to preserve an onsight. Do people take this to be the case or is weighting the rope at a big ledge or the ground for gear testing OK?
If I'm doubtful I downclimb if possible and pull test from somewhere safe below (the ground, a big ledge or by a good runner on another rope). The downside is if you give it a full test you have weighted the rope. I am personally happy to do this at a big ledge or the ground but others may say you have to avoid this to preserve an onsight. Do people take this to be the case or is weighting the rope at a big ledge or the ground for gear testing OK?
In reply to GridNorth:
Me too ,spent a fortune on cams but would much prefer to place a nut.they just feel safer to me,don't know why.
Me too ,spent a fortune on cams but would much prefer to place a nut.they just feel safer to me,don't know why.
In reply to GridNorth:
I'll generally only place cams if there's no alternative or I'm convinced the placement is "bomber". I also prefer nuts/hexes. I've taken one big fall onto a no. 7 nut which i knew was "bomber"as soon as I placed it. I've taken three smalls falls all onto cams. With cams i always try to place with the stem going in the direction of fall.
> I don't know if I'm the only one but I tend to place cams as a last resort, I much prefer nuts.
> Al
I'll generally only place cams if there's no alternative or I'm convinced the placement is "bomber". I also prefer nuts/hexes. I've taken one big fall onto a no. 7 nut which i knew was "bomber"as soon as I placed it. I've taken three smalls falls all onto cams. With cams i always try to place with the stem going in the direction of fall.
In reply to Gael Force:
I deliberately leave some placements wobbly especially if they can't be lifted out and / or it's a mountain route. Having climbed with a few instructors (in their spare time) I actually see this as a sign of expert gear placement - someone that can leave unseated bomber gear that doesn't lift out - sure not the whole way up every climb, but sometimes more often than not!
I'll add that the best test of any gear imo is a visual inspection giving it a tug really doesn't reliably tell you what will happen when half a tone of force hits it. I've seen all too many people pull testing crap placements that have stuck and held 0.3 kn of pull test (or whatever) but would be unlikely to hold a proper 5kn fall. That's my 2p worth anyway and that's not to say I don't seat gear, I normally do. My point was I don't ALWAYS do that.
> I always test or seat gear, moving up without doing so risks the rope flicking it out. I've seen too many wires lift and drop out when they're not seated.
> You can't test them when your flying through the air...
> It appears the OP thought some of his gear was bomber, but it wasn't...
I deliberately leave some placements wobbly especially if they can't be lifted out and / or it's a mountain route. Having climbed with a few instructors (in their spare time) I actually see this as a sign of expert gear placement - someone that can leave unseated bomber gear that doesn't lift out - sure not the whole way up every climb, but sometimes more often than not!
I'll add that the best test of any gear imo is a visual inspection giving it a tug really doesn't reliably tell you what will happen when half a tone of force hits it. I've seen all too many people pull testing crap placements that have stuck and held 0.3 kn of pull test (or whatever) but would be unlikely to hold a proper 5kn fall. That's my 2p worth anyway and that's not to say I don't seat gear, I normally do. My point was I don't ALWAYS do that.
Post edited at 22:10
1
I fell off Malbogies and my be layer kindly put himself between me and the ground. I clipped the wrong rope which was already clipped to gear to the right and wasn't up to a sideways pull hence why it ripped. Older and wiser now.
I also fell onto a sky hook once which held at first then pulled out as I bounced up on the recoil plunging me onto a ledge which had me hobbling for months. A red superlight rock arrested my fall.
I finished the route which was silhouette arete
at Swanage.
I also fell onto a sky hook once which held at first then pulled out as I bounced up on the recoil plunging me onto a ledge which had me hobbling for months. A red superlight rock arrested my fall.
I finished the route which was silhouette arete
at Swanage.
In reply to gethin_allen:
True but I wasn't suggesting otherwise.
> Maybe on slimy polished limestone but on other rock like grit this approach would seriously limit your gear options.
True but I wasn't suggesting otherwise.
In reply to sheelba:
He's a game I play sometimes with people to try and help them understand what is good and bad gear.
I ask them to place their complete rack in the rock at the base of a crag. This normally means that to get rip of all the pieces they have to use a mix of good and poor placements. They then rank each piece 0 to 5. 5=bolt, 0=will pull if I test it, 3=will hold a low FF fall. I then rank them. The idea being less about what is good and bad, more about whether they have an incorrect view of what is good and bad.
Did it at Chudleigh last weekend. Three of the cams pulled when I tested them with a tug on a 60cm sling. He had ranked them 3.
He's a game I play sometimes with people to try and help them understand what is good and bad gear.
I ask them to place their complete rack in the rock at the base of a crag. This normally means that to get rip of all the pieces they have to use a mix of good and poor placements. They then rank each piece 0 to 5. 5=bolt, 0=will pull if I test it, 3=will hold a low FF fall. I then rank them. The idea being less about what is good and bad, more about whether they have an incorrect view of what is good and bad.
Did it at Chudleigh last weekend. Three of the cams pulled when I tested them with a tug on a 60cm sling. He had ranked them 3.
6
In reply to sheelba:
Lots of interesting stuff, thank you for the comments and the support. It renews my faith in internet forums somewhat that there wasn't a 'learn to place better gear you idiot' comment.
Lots of interesting stuff, thank you for the comments and the support. It renews my faith in internet forums somewhat that there wasn't a 'learn to place better gear you idiot' comment.
In reply to halfwaythere:
You use sky hooks on well protected VS routes??
> I finished the route which was silhouette arete
> at Swanage.
You use sky hooks on well protected VS routes??
1
In reply to sheelba:
The thing is, sometimes there is no decent gear, and in those circumstances, you are much better off climbing calmly past the run-out section than getting pumped trying to fiddle stuff in that won't help if you fall. One of my less pleasant falls occurred many years ago on Fang (HVS 5a) at Tremadog. I had placed gear in the crack before one moves left towards an arete, and was about to move round it and on up when my second started telling me with some insistence to place some gear. I hadn't been climbing long - about 18 months - and so, foolishly, I heeded him. I spent ages placing a couple of really useless micro wires from an awkward and strenuous position, so making myself thoroughly scared. When I did move round I fell off one move from a jug.
In the ensuing tumble the wires ripped. I sustained deep grazes to my right hand and knuckles that took months to heal, and a painful shoulder tendon injury. Fortunately it was late October, because that was the end of any climbing for me that year. Over the winter, as my pride and injuries healed, and I recovered my fitness, I replayed that route in my mind again and again. Come early April, warmed up from an easy VS, I went back to Fang with the same second on my second day out on the rock. This time, I didn't hesitate. I was slightly surprised by the route's boldness, but the climbing was straightforward for the grade. I moved steadily round the arete and reached good holds, where I slotted in a bomber nut. On the upper slab I felt euphoric. But I had learnt several valuable lessons, the chief of which was: sometimes, you really do have to go for it, and the less you hesitate then, the better.
The thing is, sometimes there is no decent gear, and in those circumstances, you are much better off climbing calmly past the run-out section than getting pumped trying to fiddle stuff in that won't help if you fall. One of my less pleasant falls occurred many years ago on Fang (HVS 5a) at Tremadog. I had placed gear in the crack before one moves left towards an arete, and was about to move round it and on up when my second started telling me with some insistence to place some gear. I hadn't been climbing long - about 18 months - and so, foolishly, I heeded him. I spent ages placing a couple of really useless micro wires from an awkward and strenuous position, so making myself thoroughly scared. When I did move round I fell off one move from a jug.
In the ensuing tumble the wires ripped. I sustained deep grazes to my right hand and knuckles that took months to heal, and a painful shoulder tendon injury. Fortunately it was late October, because that was the end of any climbing for me that year. Over the winter, as my pride and injuries healed, and I recovered my fitness, I replayed that route in my mind again and again. Come early April, warmed up from an easy VS, I went back to Fang with the same second on my second day out on the rock. This time, I didn't hesitate. I was slightly surprised by the route's boldness, but the climbing was straightforward for the grade. I moved steadily round the arete and reached good holds, where I slotted in a bomber nut. On the upper slab I felt euphoric. But I had learnt several valuable lessons, the chief of which was: sometimes, you really do have to go for it, and the less you hesitate then, the better.
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In reply to sheelba:
If it's any consolation i did exactly the same thing on hen cloud eliminate early in my climbing career.
I yanked hard on the first nut i placed to seat it and it ripped out and i fell off. Luckily i landed directly on my feet with no harm done and immediately set off again without a word leaving my even less experienced belayer to think this was a perfectly normal thing to happen...
If it's any consolation i did exactly the same thing on hen cloud eliminate early in my climbing career.
I yanked hard on the first nut i placed to seat it and it ripped out and i fell off. Luckily i landed directly on my feet with no harm done and immediately set off again without a word leaving my even less experienced belayer to think this was a perfectly normal thing to happen...
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In reply to sheelba:
Thanks again for all the support. I lead Hell Gates a few days ago which is considered top end HVS and have taken quite a few sport falls since tying back on so it seems that my psyche has recovered nicely. I healed surprisingly quickly in only a few weeks. Just need to ensure that I remember the lessons learnt now!
Thanks again for all the support. I lead Hell Gates a few days ago which is considered top end HVS and have taken quite a few sport falls since tying back on so it seems that my psyche has recovered nicely. I healed surprisingly quickly in only a few weeks. Just need to ensure that I remember the lessons learnt now!
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In reply to sheelba:
glad you're ok and thanks for your thoughts.
I keep seeing "we don't talk about accidents in this country" on here, but anytime there is an accident reported thre's plenty of chat. The reason the posts get shut down though are because instead of discussing what happened, what may have happened, or once the results of any investigation are out discussing those, there is a tendency of certain people to be judgemental based on no evidence. "he shouldn't have been doing that and he's an idiot for it" is a common tone of response. THAT is not respectful, especially given the conclusion being based on sketchy, if any, evidence.
glad you're ok and thanks for your thoughts.
I keep seeing "we don't talk about accidents in this country" on here, but anytime there is an accident reported thre's plenty of chat. The reason the posts get shut down though are because instead of discussing what happened, what may have happened, or once the results of any investigation are out discussing those, there is a tendency of certain people to be judgemental based on no evidence. "he shouldn't have been doing that and he's an idiot for it" is a common tone of response. THAT is not respectful, especially given the conclusion being based on sketchy, if any, evidence.
In reply to gethin_allen:
> Maybe on slimy polished limestone but on other rock like grit this approach would seriously limit your gear options.
Not really it's still an option but just the last one I would go for In reply to harold walmsley:
Seems fair enough to me Harold, as you're not actually weighting the rope to aid upwards progress - but instead to check the gear.
D.
Seems fair enough to me Harold, as you're not actually weighting the rope to aid upwards progress - but instead to check the gear.
D.
In reply to harold walmsley:
Really I worry about such ethical obsessions with minutiae when it can really reduce risk. Still counts as a sensible onsight approach to me.
Really I worry about such ethical obsessions with minutiae when it can really reduce risk. Still counts as a sensible onsight approach to me.
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Good thread. We've had the initial description, some useful tips from experienced climbers, and then some 'further down the road' feedback from the OP. Perhaps now is a good time for the thread to stop, before less useful comments (like this one!) get made as usually seems to be the case.
Perhaps in other examples, if an OP makes a similar thread, they can then ask the UKC mods to lock the thread when they (the OP) feels the thread has reached it's 'peak of usefulness' and before it takes a dive?
Perhaps in other examples, if an OP makes a similar thread, they can then ask the UKC mods to lock the thread when they (the OP) feels the thread has reached it's 'peak of usefulness' and before it takes a dive?
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In reply to sheelba:
If you do stick to trad and try to improve your grade you will fall. I have taken many a fall on gear ranging from monster hexes to (supposedly) aid only minute RPs. The minute gear held, the hexes went. Whether it held or not was entirely due- except the once when the whole crack shattered when I wouldn't have thought so- to how well I placed it. How well I placed it was entirely due to how pumped and comfy I was. Some days, my head is in the right place and I will commit above shit gear or no gear at all. Some days my head is not here at all and I won't commit above bomber gear.
That's what it means to be crafty with gear. That's what it means to be feeling confident or not. That's the game of trad climbing.
I am very fortunate that I have never hurt myself badly (only one clipped ankle due to crampons in winter after a mahoosive pisser- managed to hobble back down unassisted) and I feel sorry that you have.
It is nice of you to share your experience: some of us will carry on taking poor decisions regardless, some of us will take stock, some of us are none the wiser. That is the beauty of forums...plenty of wisdom for those who seek it.
Hopefully it's not put you off trad. Personally, trad gave a 2nd wind to my climbing. It came at a moment I was so dispirited with climbing (I only had sport, being a euro cragger) that i nearly sacked it altogether. I love it and to this day (14 years on) I've not looked back once. I only sport climb to be fitter for trad and winter!
[edit] came after the sensible suggestion from Rich sorry!
If you do stick to trad and try to improve your grade you will fall. I have taken many a fall on gear ranging from monster hexes to (supposedly) aid only minute RPs. The minute gear held, the hexes went. Whether it held or not was entirely due- except the once when the whole crack shattered when I wouldn't have thought so- to how well I placed it. How well I placed it was entirely due to how pumped and comfy I was. Some days, my head is in the right place and I will commit above shit gear or no gear at all. Some days my head is not here at all and I won't commit above bomber gear.
That's what it means to be crafty with gear. That's what it means to be feeling confident or not. That's the game of trad climbing.
I am very fortunate that I have never hurt myself badly (only one clipped ankle due to crampons in winter after a mahoosive pisser- managed to hobble back down unassisted) and I feel sorry that you have.
It is nice of you to share your experience: some of us will carry on taking poor decisions regardless, some of us will take stock, some of us are none the wiser. That is the beauty of forums...plenty of wisdom for those who seek it.
Hopefully it's not put you off trad. Personally, trad gave a 2nd wind to my climbing. It came at a moment I was so dispirited with climbing (I only had sport, being a euro cragger) that i nearly sacked it altogether. I love it and to this day (14 years on) I've not looked back once. I only sport climb to be fitter for trad and winter!
[edit] came after the sensible suggestion from Rich sorry!
Post edited at 16:03
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In reply to sheelba:
Hi,
It might seem really obvious but....
A good simple exercise to improve your placements, and (I guess just as importantly after your tumble) your confidence in them, is to challenge a friend to see how many pieces you can place in five minutes within a small area (eg 5m wide or) at the base of a crag. Then test each others' placements, mark out of ten and add up the scores. Then discuss why they've scored you for each. It's a good exercise, surprisingly fun if you're a trad geek, and it forces you to use more unusual, and poorer placements at speed, just as you might have to when on lead. You can even make it a bit harder by doing it while bouldering about.
Hope you get back climbing soon.
D.
Hi,
It might seem really obvious but....
A good simple exercise to improve your placements, and (I guess just as importantly after your tumble) your confidence in them, is to challenge a friend to see how many pieces you can place in five minutes within a small area (eg 5m wide or) at the base of a crag. Then test each others' placements, mark out of ten and add up the scores. Then discuss why they've scored you for each. It's a good exercise, surprisingly fun if you're a trad geek, and it forces you to use more unusual, and poorer placements at speed, just as you might have to when on lead. You can even make it a bit harder by doing it while bouldering about.
Hope you get back climbing soon.
D.
Post edited at 16:24
In reply to sheelba:
First of all, thanks for posting. I also think its important that we learn from our climbing mistakes.
Please forgive me, but when I hear of someone decking out and all the gear ripping, my first thoughts are where was the belayer positioned in relation to the route, and were the runners extended accordingly? Perhaps you have already considered the influence of your belayer and disregarded it, but there is no mention of this in your description of the event.
Anyway, glad you made a full recovery and are continuing to enjoy your climbing.
First of all, thanks for posting. I also think its important that we learn from our climbing mistakes.
Please forgive me, but when I hear of someone decking out and all the gear ripping, my first thoughts are where was the belayer positioned in relation to the route, and were the runners extended accordingly? Perhaps you have already considered the influence of your belayer and disregarded it, but there is no mention of this in your description of the event.
Anyway, glad you made a full recovery and are continuing to enjoy your climbing.
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