UKC

UPDATE: Franco Cookson and Divine Moments of Truth H10 7a

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 UKC News 02 Jun 2015
Franco climbing Divine Moments of Truth H10 7a, 3 kbWe recently reported that a new E10 7a - or H10 as used by Franco to indicate a headpoint ascent - named Divine Moments Of Truth had been established by Franco Cookson at Kay Nest, North Yorkshire. We got in touch with Franco to find out more information about the route.

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=69763
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 Scott Quinn 02 Jun 2015
In reply to UKC News:

I don't know why but I really hate this H grade shit...
5
In reply to scott quinn:

Is that why you voted it a Bag of... for the star rating?
 Scott Quinn 02 Jun 2015
In reply to Paul Phillips - UKC and UKH:

No its e10 in the logbook I can deal with that
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 Ramblin dave 02 Jun 2015
In reply to scott quinn:

Makes sense to me - it must be hard enough to decide that one route that you've headpointed is definitively harder to headpoint than another, without then having to guess which would be hardest to onsight once you take into account tricky sequences, non-obvious gear, levels of commitment and so on. So why not stick to the one that you can actually take a reasonable stab at?

Route looks nails anyway.
 Chris the Tall 02 Jun 2015
In reply to scott quinn:

> I don't know why but I really hate this H grade shit...

E grades are, notionally at least, and indication of how hard the route is to on-sight. By headpointing you take various factors - gear placement, gear choice, route reading - out of the equation. On some routes they might be more important than others, but it's all hypothetical unless you actually try an on-sight.

It seems to me that Franco is being quite honest and grading on his experience, rather than how hard the route might be if climbed in a different style. Of course we will all equate H10 with E10, but it doesn't have to follow. And despite his critics, I like the fact he isn't saying "I've climbed E10".
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In reply to scott quinn: It's far more honest than claiming to have led an E10 after months of practice and knoing the holds and gear intimately. It gets away from the macho bull of strutting around afterwards claiming that you have done something that you have not. Franco has the right idea and the right attitude.

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 Scott Quinn 02 Jun 2015
In reply to Frank the Husky:

Most of his hard ascents have been well documented by Franco & co via their blogs etc. Its no secret in what style he has climbed these bold committing routes & I'm sure if any talented climber wanted to repeat them they would do their research?

H10 is obviously at least e10 or more I'd prefer to call it e10 and let following ascents determine the grade.
I did like how old FRCC guides included a French grade for routes over e6 & for me is a far more beneficial system.

Guess I just don't like the idea of another grading system being introduced... Almost like the Yorkshire P grades which negated the adjective grade all together!

In reply to UKC News:

Why not to just say E10 7a Headpoint? Still short enough descriptor. People indicate style, when talking about sports routes, why not apply this to trad. I agree that trad grade without additional comment should mean on-sight.

I am an armchair climber in this range of grades. E1 5c is my best. Still, can I really claim on-sight on a route that I saw climbed many times before, simply because its on a crowded venue where I frequently climb ...

Congratulations for great new route.
Removed User 02 Jun 2015
In reply to andrzej kierzek:
Surely one interesting aspect of the H grade that is that it leaves open the possibility of a variance between it and the E grade. e.g. E10/H9 due to some very unusual gear and/or hard to place (blind?) crucial gear, or a very complex and contrived sequence?

This would be equally applicable further down the grading system e.g. E2/H0 it it wasn't for the fact that at that level you're not a headpointer but a dirty wee top-roping sh1t?
Post edited at 15:24
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 Rob Parsons 02 Jun 2015
In reply to scott quinn:

> I did like how old FRCC guides included a French grade for routes over e6

I don't remember that all. Can you give an example?
 mrconners 02 Jun 2015
In reply to UKC News:

Done in Ron Hills as well. Fu**ing good effort In my view, and the route is as well.
 Scott Quinn 02 Jun 2015
In reply to Rob Parsons:

I don't have a guidebook with me but I can give rough example as to how its shown in the guide.
The route would be shown as - e6 6b (fr7a+) - "description"

They even include a paragraph in the front of the guide behind this "new" thinking regarding the higher grades....& on another note the comprehensive graded lists in the older guides would indicate the difference in difficulty between one route and another of the same grade.
In reply to mrconners:

> Done in Ron Hills as well.

Do you Franco is ahead of the game? Is it ok to be retro and where Ron Hill's again?

 Rob Parsons 02 Jun 2015
In reply to scott quinn:
> I don't have a guidebook with me but I can give rough example as to how its shown in the guide.

Thanks. I honestly can't remember that. Are you *sure* you mean FRCC guides?

Unfortunately I don't have my guidebooks with me either but, if you get the chance, it'd be good if you can point me at a specific page. Thanks.
Post edited at 16:34
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 Coel Hellier 02 Jun 2015
In reply to Removed User:

> Surely one interesting aspect of the H grade that is that it leaves open the possibility of a variance between it and the E grade. e.g. E10/H9 due to some very unusual gear ...

Well, Psykovsky's Sequins is certainly not E8 for the on-sight without some very particular gear beta!
Removed User 02 Jun 2015
In reply to Coel Hellier:

It is clear to me from my arm chair vantage point that that particular route will settle in at e9 H8 7a.
 Michael Gordon 02 Jun 2015
In reply to scott quinn:

The H grade is a bit of a non-issue at this level as everyone knows E10 won't be onsight.

Though pre-practice isn't common for new routes around E3-E5, I think it's important that when it occurs the FA tries to take a good stab at the onsight grade as that is the style in which they're likely to be repeated. They can just put 'headpoint' in the description.

As far as I can tell the issue (if there is one) seems to mainly be with stuff around E6-E8 which in theory could be repeated in either style.

In general I usually think that estimating an onsight grade is more useful to the potential onsighter than just giving an H grade which could mean a range of possible E grades.
 treesrockice 02 Jun 2015
In reply to Michael Gordon:
> The H grade is a bit of a non-issue at this level as everyone knows E10 won't be onsight.

Why will E10 not be onsighted? never say never.
 Michael Gordon 02 Jun 2015
In reply to treesrockice:

I mean that everyone knows a route graded E10 will have been put up using pre-practice. Anyone looking to try and onsight something like 'Muy Caliente!' (the most likely contender?) will know that the FA was not in that style.
 Kemics 02 Jun 2015
In reply to treesrockice:

I reckon James Pearson onsights E10 in the next couple years
 Lukem6 02 Jun 2015
In reply to Paul Phillips - UKC and UKH:
I've just learned you can vote for routes without climbing them... it does now mean my testing of this may effect the logbook. whoops
and sorry.... remove it as i can not seem to undo this.. would be nice to be able to remove votes or adjust. as some of my previous votes I now disagree with now that i have more experience and have repeated recently
Post edited at 21:04
 Monk 02 Jun 2015
In reply to Rob Parsons:

> Thanks. I honestly can't remember that. Are you *sure* you mean FRCC guides?

> Unfortunately I don't have my guidebooks with me either but, if you get the chance, it'd be good if you can point me at a specific page. Thanks.

Totally off topic, but it's true. For example look at reescastle in the 2000 borrowdale guide.
 USBRIT 02 Jun 2015
In reply to UKC News:

Good effort by Franco.. and respect to his H grade
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 Steve Perry 03 Jun 2015
In reply to UKC News:

Really well done, a great effort and here's hoping it inspires another climber capable enough to climb it and enjoy it.
I was wondering when a trad route this hard was last climbed in the UK?
 stp 03 Jun 2015
In reply to Frank the Husky:

> It's far more honest than claiming to have led an E10 after months of practice

I totally agree. I've always found the E grades for headpoints confusing. The question is whether the grade for that person's headpoint ascent of the route or more for the theoretical difficulty of how hard the route would be for a would be ground up ascent. Or maybe even some kind of mishmash of the two?
 Blake 03 Jun 2015
In reply to UKC News:
Does this mean we now have a subjective and an objective grade? As well as a adjective and a technical one?

I was talking to a friend about this at the weekend.. there are 3 types of climbers: people who climbed it and say its easy... people who climbed it and say its hard... people who climbed it and don't say anything, they just enjoy it.

Either way, its a bizarre metric for gauging such a complex and entirely relative thing. Seeing as only a handful of people at most will ever repeat this route, its a far more nourishing discussion if we discuss what we have climbed and enjoyed lately, and why?
Post edited at 09:27
 Rob Parsons 03 Jun 2015
In reply to Monk:

> Totally off topic

Yes, sorry - not trying to derail the thread.

> For example look at reescastle in the 2000 borrowdale guide.

Thanks, I'll check that out.
In reply to Lukem6:

> Would be nice to be able to remove votes or adjust. as some of my previous votes I now disagree with now that i have more experience and have repeated recently

We're working on the climb page at the moment, I will build in a option to change your previous vote.
In reply to UKC News:

It would be interesting to know what sport grade Franco would give the climbing. With a minimum crux grade of font7c presumably it would have to be at least French8b if not 8c. I've no idea what sports grade Franco climbs at or even if he climbs sport (and I'm not have a Mr. Farnell style dig!) so I don't know if he could comment or not. I find sports grades much more useful at this level as english 6c/7a is so broad.
 JamieSparkes Global Crag Moderator 03 Jun 2015
In reply to Somerset swede basher:
Have a look at his blog, he has some thoughts on using british tech at the upper end and is apparently using a modified version of it to try and reduce the variation at the upper end.
Post edited at 17:35
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 robin mueller 03 Jun 2015
In reply to Somerset swede basher:

> It would be interesting to know what sport grade Franco would give the climbing. With a minimum crux grade of font7c presumably it would have to be at least French8b if not 8c.

It's not that straightforward. Depends on how hard and how long the rest of the climbing is. Eg. Entree at Cheedale is a short 8a with a boulder problem crux of 7C. Pump up the Power at the Tor is 8a+ and 7C+.

 victorclimber 03 Jun 2015
In reply to UKC News:

Did Francos route way back as an artificial climb with step etriers ,probably in the 60,s and it was hard enough for us then ,and steep,so hats of to him and lets see some of the folk who tend to focus just on grit come up and try some of the Moors new routes.and then the grades can be seen to be in line with the norm or not ..
In reply to robin mueller:

Fair point - I was comparing against Mecca at 8b+ with probably a font7c crux. Glad to see we all use the Tor as a benchmark!

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