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In this short piece of video from Kieran Duncan, we see a climber fall from the popular 7b Omiros on Kalymnos.Callum the climber (we wish him a speedy recovery) falls with the rope behind his leg and has a harsh belay. He whips in to the rock breaking his thumb and some ribs. Ouch.
Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=69790
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In reply to UKC News:
Jeez. That was unpleasant to watch. Lucky sport climbing is safe though, and you don't need to wear a helmet....
The catch didn't look too bad. There was a fair bit of rope out and the belayer just locked off and held the fall, which would probably have been fine if the climber hadn't been coming down head first. A soft catch in that situation might really have dropped him on his head. Doesn't bear thinking about.
Jeez. That was unpleasant to watch. Lucky sport climbing is safe though, and you don't need to wear a helmet....
The catch didn't look too bad. There was a fair bit of rope out and the belayer just locked off and held the fall, which would probably have been fine if the climber hadn't been coming down head first. A soft catch in that situation might really have dropped him on his head. Doesn't bear thinking about.
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In reply to ChrisBrooke:
It also didn't look to me like the climber was doing anything too wrong with their leg either; I think they were just unlucky to catch the rope on the way down.
So the fall was just unlucky, the catch was probably OK, and the climber still nearly got hit on the head (which without a helmet would probably have been much worse than a few broken ribs... glad the climber got some luck at the end and didn't hit their head. Hope he is better soon.
Funny how you aren't really allowed to say that people should wear helmets though...
It also didn't look to me like the climber was doing anything too wrong with their leg either; I think they were just unlucky to catch the rope on the way down.
So the fall was just unlucky, the catch was probably OK, and the climber still nearly got hit on the head (which without a helmet would probably have been much worse than a few broken ribs... glad the climber got some luck at the end and didn't hit their head. Hope he is better soon.
Funny how you aren't really allowed to say that people should wear helmets though...
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In reply to UKC News:
This is xposted from /r/climbing (nice job linking to the original, ukc!).
Here's the original if you want to see what the americans think of this: https://www.reddit.com/r/climbing/comments/39xisk/my_mate_took_a_really_nas...
This is xposted from /r/climbing (nice job linking to the original, ukc!).
Here's the original if you want to see what the americans think of this: https://www.reddit.com/r/climbing/comments/39xisk/my_mate_took_a_really_nas...
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In reply to UKC News:
No helmet, his family must be so proud. I notice it was beside him in the hospital for when he falls out of bed.
No helmet, his family must be so proud. I notice it was beside him in the hospital for when he falls out of bed.
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In reply to Removed User:
Hi, thanks for the link - hadn't seen that. Interesting post there, and sums up the whole thing very well.
Unfortunate, but could have been so much worse, glad the guy is ok!
Best,
Jack
Hi, thanks for the link - hadn't seen that. Interesting post there, and sums up the whole thing very well.
Unfortunate, but could have been so much worse, glad the guy is ok!
Best,
Jack
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In reply to jaggy bunnet:
Don't let this turn into a helmet/no helmet debate- that's personal choice
What's important is that two things contributed to such as bad fall; firstly the climber had his right foot behind the rope, something that's very easy to do especially when on steep ground; secondly, the belayer (assuming a relative beginner) did not give a soft catch— bow string tight belaying followed by taking in as the climber fell and absolutely no movement from the place he was standing.
Thanks for posting the video as it highlights a lot of things that we can all learn from.
Don't let this turn into a helmet/no helmet debate- that's personal choice
What's important is that two things contributed to such as bad fall; firstly the climber had his right foot behind the rope, something that's very easy to do especially when on steep ground; secondly, the belayer (assuming a relative beginner) did not give a soft catch— bow string tight belaying followed by taking in as the climber fell and absolutely no movement from the place he was standing.
Thanks for posting the video as it highlights a lot of things that we can all learn from.
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In reply to simonzxr:
Not what it looked like to me watching the video large screen and pausing the action. His foot wasn't behind the rope when he fell, that happened in mid air. The belayer gave a hard catch, maybe a bad decision, but the rock was sticking out more further down so not completely unreasonable. If the climber had swung in a bit lower and hit his head everyone would be saying it was crap belaying for doing a soft catch and letting him fall further.
> What's important is that two things contributed to such as bad fall; firstly the climber had his right foot behind the rope, something that's very easy to do especially when on steep ground; secondly, the belayer (assuming a relative beginner) did not give a soft catch— bow string tight belaying followed by taking in as the climber fell and absolutely no movement from the place he was standing.
Not what it looked like to me watching the video large screen and pausing the action. His foot wasn't behind the rope when he fell, that happened in mid air. The belayer gave a hard catch, maybe a bad decision, but the rock was sticking out more further down so not completely unreasonable. If the climber had swung in a bit lower and hit his head everyone would be saying it was crap belaying for doing a soft catch and letting him fall further.
Post edited at 12:36
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In reply to Removed User:
To be fair to the belayer - who is receiving lots of criticism on reddit.. if he made a softer/longer catch then the guys head could have impacted the protruding rock below and, in any case, the flip caused by the leg behind the rope is always going to be fast regardless of catch softness.
To be fair to the belayer - who is receiving lots of criticism on reddit.. if he made a softer/longer catch then the guys head could have impacted the protruding rock below and, in any case, the flip caused by the leg behind the rope is always going to be fast regardless of catch softness.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Yes, I was sceptical at first but did the same. At 22 seconds you can just see his right heal is to the left of the bolt (the perspective doesn't help here). It's pretty subtle and in fairness maybe unavoidable in that circumstance....the point is that for less experienced climbers it illustrates that there's more to sport lead climbing and belaying that meets the eye initially.
Yes, I was sceptical at first but did the same. At 22 seconds you can just see his right heal is to the left of the bolt (the perspective doesn't help here). It's pretty subtle and in fairness maybe unavoidable in that circumstance....the point is that for less experienced climbers it illustrates that there's more to sport lead climbing and belaying that meets the eye initially.
Post edited at 12:54
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In reply to UKC News:
There is no mention of what device the belayer was using although it looks like a normal Stitch plate type. I wouldn't criticise either the climber nor the belayer, I wasn't there, but on the associated thread there is a lot of unfair, unfounded criticism of both. Personally I think the best way to give a dynamic belay is to use an appropriate device because my instinct would, I am fairly certain, be to take in or lock off to minimise the distance of a fall. The belayer does not often have the luxury of time to think about all the variables. I use a Mammut Smart which I understand does just that i.e it's designed to give a softer fall as it allows some rope slippage.
There is no mention of what device the belayer was using although it looks like a normal Stitch plate type. I wouldn't criticise either the climber nor the belayer, I wasn't there, but on the associated thread there is a lot of unfair, unfounded criticism of both. Personally I think the best way to give a dynamic belay is to use an appropriate device because my instinct would, I am fairly certain, be to take in or lock off to minimise the distance of a fall. The belayer does not often have the luxury of time to think about all the variables. I use a Mammut Smart which I understand does just that i.e it's designed to give a softer fall as it allows some rope slippage.
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In reply to UKC News:
Whether you're whipped in by a tight rope or swing in on a softer rope hitting the wall still hurts once you're out of control. I think the thing we often fail to appreciate is how much skill and leg muscle is involved in safely landing a fall be it onto the wall or the floor. Once you're flipped and or facing out you just crunch into whatever's behind and below you which head first can obviously be serious. Avoiding getting tangled/flipped is very important but with the best will in the world it can still happen from time to time.
jk
Whether you're whipped in by a tight rope or swing in on a softer rope hitting the wall still hurts once you're out of control. I think the thing we often fail to appreciate is how much skill and leg muscle is involved in safely landing a fall be it onto the wall or the floor. Once you're flipped and or facing out you just crunch into whatever's behind and below you which head first can obviously be serious. Avoiding getting tangled/flipped is very important but with the best will in the world it can still happen from time to time.
jk
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In reply to GridNorth:
I'm the cameraman, and I can tell you the belayer was using a grigri 2.
Glad to see some constructive conversation on here. It ultimately comes down to a multitude of unfortunate but easy mistakes, which culminate in a particularly nasty whip. Luckily it wasn't much worse, and serves as a good reminder to avoid this kind of stuff in the future.
I'm the cameraman, and I can tell you the belayer was using a grigri 2.
Glad to see some constructive conversation on here. It ultimately comes down to a multitude of unfortunate but easy mistakes, which culminate in a particularly nasty whip. Luckily it wasn't much worse, and serves as a good reminder to avoid this kind of stuff in the future.
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In reply to UKC News:
Not sure how the “soft” catch is meant to work in this situation – is the belayer meant to lock off and run up the steepening to the first bolt ?
Not sure how the “soft” catch is meant to work in this situation – is the belayer meant to lock off and run up the steepening to the first bolt ?
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In reply to Jim Hamilton:
That is more or less how you achieve soft catches with a semi autolocking device. Move with the rope, actively if needs be (mainly dependent on the relative weight). Up to the first bolt is a bit far, although I have given my lighter belayers some air miles over the years.
and for the OP: HELMET!
CB
That is more or less how you achieve soft catches with a semi autolocking device. Move with the rope, actively if needs be (mainly dependent on the relative weight). Up to the first bolt is a bit far, although I have given my lighter belayers some air miles over the years.
and for the OP: HELMET!
CB
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In reply to GridNorth:
But in this case it's nothing to do with the belay device. The slippage avoids shock loads, so kinder on the harness (and the climber wearing it) and the protection (it's a bolt, not a huge concern).
The problem here is containing the swing, once the belay device has locked off (a split second if it's a tuber) and most of the slack has gone you're going to pendulum. The only way to introduce some give into the system is to move the anchor ( the belay device), so step in or jump up so that some of the energy is disapated downwards and not sideways.
Of course the problem is, as others have said, that may be more or less likely to bring into contact with hazards below you.
> Personally I think the best way to give a dynamic belay is to use an appropriate device because my instinct would, I am fairly certain, be to take in or lock off to minimise the distance of a fall. The belayer does not often have the luxury of time to think about all the variables. I use a Mammut Smart which I understand does just that i.e it's designed to give a softer fall as it allows some rope slippage.
But in this case it's nothing to do with the belay device. The slippage avoids shock loads, so kinder on the harness (and the climber wearing it) and the protection (it's a bolt, not a huge concern).
The problem here is containing the swing, once the belay device has locked off (a split second if it's a tuber) and most of the slack has gone you're going to pendulum. The only way to introduce some give into the system is to move the anchor ( the belay device), so step in or jump up so that some of the energy is disapated downwards and not sideways.
Of course the problem is, as others have said, that may be more or less likely to bring into contact with hazards below you.
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In reply to winhill:
I never said that it was. I was responding to others who mentioned dynamic belays, I was just expanding on that.
Al
> But in this case it's nothing to do with the belay device.
I never said that it was. I was responding to others who mentioned dynamic belays, I was just expanding on that.
Al
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In reply to Jim Hamilton:
It looks to me like he takes rope in as the climber is falling so I would say that to do a soft catch you shouldn't do that— this may not always be appropriate though.
As an aside I often notice that when someone thinks they're going to fall or they are about to jump off, they usually shout 'take!' (we're all guilty of that one )...it's worth pointing out that it should be the belayer that decides if that is the appropriate course of action or not, even if it slightly inconveniences the climber because they fall further!
It looks to me like he takes rope in as the climber is falling so I would say that to do a soft catch you shouldn't do that— this may not always be appropriate though.
As an aside I often notice that when someone thinks they're going to fall or they are about to jump off, they usually shout 'take!' (we're all guilty of that one )...it's worth pointing out that it should be the belayer that decides if that is the appropriate course of action or not, even if it slightly inconveniences the climber because they fall further!
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In reply to simonzxr:
I would have had an inch or so more slack in the system but then again who's to say, that may have resulted in a worse situation. It's all well and good this armchair analysis but when you are there, on the spot instincts kick in and I believe most peoples instinct would be to take in and brace themselves when they think a fall is imminent and/or in progress. It would require a cool quick brain to analyse all the variables within a split second and respond in the correct way in every situation, hence my comments about letting the gear do what it's designed to do.
I would have had an inch or so more slack in the system but then again who's to say, that may have resulted in a worse situation. It's all well and good this armchair analysis but when you are there, on the spot instincts kick in and I believe most peoples instinct would be to take in and brace themselves when they think a fall is imminent and/or in progress. It would require a cool quick brain to analyse all the variables within a split second and respond in the correct way in every situation, hence my comments about letting the gear do what it's designed to do.
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In reply to GridNorth:
I was replying to a question about dynamic belaying and thought I'd chosen my words well enough to not be considered to be having a go.
I agree that instinct takes over which is why practice ingrains those instincts to act appropriately. If you're belaying attentively I would suggest that you're analysing the variables constantly and experience leads you to act accordingly. So the only criticism you can level at the belayer is inexperience which is not really a criticism at all.
I was replying to a question about dynamic belaying and thought I'd chosen my words well enough to not be considered to be having a go.
I agree that instinct takes over which is why practice ingrains those instincts to act appropriately. If you're belaying attentively I would suggest that you're analysing the variables constantly and experience leads you to act accordingly. So the only criticism you can level at the belayer is inexperience which is not really a criticism at all.
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In reply to GridNorth:
The best way, if you are actually interested in sport climbing - which you explicitly say in your profile you aren't, so fair enough - is to learn and practice giving a proper soft catch by moving with the rope as it comes tight.
I would expect that somebody of your experience ought to be able to appreciate that different belaying styles and techniques are appropriate for different situations. There are times when minimising the distance is important and there are times when an extra metre makes no difference at all and it's more pleasant and safer for all concerned to minmise the impact. The classic scenario is just above a bolt on slightly overhanging ground, when a semicircular slam against the rock is dangerous and letting the climber drop a bit is much safer.
Not the instinct of an experienced and competent sport belayer, because s/he has trained and practiced doing something else.
I'm an old traddie too and still in the process of learning to suppress my "take in and brace" reflex, but it is, in fact, possible for old dogs to learn new tricks. If they can be bothered.
> Personally I think the best way to give a dynamic belay is to use an appropriate device because my instinct would, I am fairly certain, be to take in or lock off to minimise the distance of a fall.
The best way, if you are actually interested in sport climbing - which you explicitly say in your profile you aren't, so fair enough - is to learn and practice giving a proper soft catch by moving with the rope as it comes tight.
I would expect that somebody of your experience ought to be able to appreciate that different belaying styles and techniques are appropriate for different situations. There are times when minimising the distance is important and there are times when an extra metre makes no difference at all and it's more pleasant and safer for all concerned to minmise the impact. The classic scenario is just above a bolt on slightly overhanging ground, when a semicircular slam against the rock is dangerous and letting the climber drop a bit is much safer.
> most peoples instinct would be to take in and brace themselves when they think a fall is imminent and/or in progress.
Not the instinct of an experienced and competent sport belayer, because s/he has trained and practiced doing something else.
I'm an old traddie too and still in the process of learning to suppress my "take in and brace" reflex, but it is, in fact, possible for old dogs to learn new tricks. If they can be bothered.
Post edited at 15:19
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In reply to simonzxr:
One of my regular climbing partners habitually does that. I agree: very bad habit.
> As an aside I often notice that when someone thinks they're going to fall or they are about to jump off, they usually shout 'take!' (we're all guilty of that one )...it's worth pointing out that it should be the belayer that decides if that is the appropriate course of action or not, even if it slightly inconveniences the climber because they fall further!
One of my regular climbing partners habitually does that. I agree: very bad habit.
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In reply to AlanLittle:
I cringe when my old timer climbing partner is about to fall. He quite often tries to grab the quickdraw mid-fall. One day he'll do some real damage.
Boggy.
I cringe when my old timer climbing partner is about to fall. He quite often tries to grab the quickdraw mid-fall. One day he'll do some real damage.
Boggy.
In reply to Bogwalloper:
I saw a picture once of a guy who did that. Quickdraw nose went through his palm and ripped the entire hand to shreds. Pretty awful.
I saw a picture once of a guy who did that. Quickdraw nose went through his palm and ripped the entire hand to shreds. Pretty awful.
In reply to UKC News:
Looks to me like the busted thumb was caught between his head and the wall? Need to remember that neat technique the next time I'm climbing sans-lid.
Looks to me like the busted thumb was caught between his head and the wall? Need to remember that neat technique the next time I'm climbing sans-lid.
In reply to Bogwalloper:
I saw someone do the same thing last year. Somehow by grabbing it they managed to uncllip it and thus fell much further onto the bolt below.
> He quite often tries to grab the quickdraw mid-fall.
I saw someone do the same thing last year. Somehow by grabbing it they managed to uncllip it and thus fell much further onto the bolt below.
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In reply to stp:
I kicked the wire at my feet out whilst falling once. That wasn't such a great idea either.
I kicked the wire at my feet out whilst falling once. That wasn't such a great idea either.
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In reply to PM:
That's what we thought initially but after analysing the video at home we're pretty sure his arm just impacts the rock above (relative to the climber) his head.
> Looks to me like the busted thumb was caught between his head and the wall? Need to remember that neat technique the next time I'm climbing sans-lid.
That's what we thought initially but after analysing the video at home we're pretty sure his arm just impacts the rock above (relative to the climber) his head.
In reply to simonzxr:
That's forums for you. I never thought for a second you were having a go and I have no idea where Alanlittle got the idea that I don't like or participate in sports climbing. I still maintain however that most peoples reaction to a falling climber is to brace and lock especially with a regular belay device. Perhaps I mix in the wrong circles.
Al
That's forums for you. I never thought for a second you were having a go and I have no idea where Alanlittle got the idea that I don't like or participate in sports climbing. I still maintain however that most peoples reaction to a falling climber is to brace and lock especially with a regular belay device. Perhaps I mix in the wrong circles.
Al
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In reply to GridNorth:
Perhaps I misread the bit in your profile where you yourself said:
If you and your mates aren't interested in working routes then that's fine obviously, but it probably means you're not catching lots of falls.
I'm not finding the process of learning sport belaying as an experienced trad belayer at all easy, but I've taken the first step which is realising that i have something to learn, that the technique and mindset I had - "take in and brace" as you eloquently put it - isn't the right tool for the job.
Perhaps I misread the bit in your profile where you yourself said:
> as I have got older I appreciate the added security of bolts and the warmth of Europe more and more. Despite this I am a traditionalist at heart and climb on bolts as opposed to sport climb. I would rather give up climbing than spend a day on a single pitch working the moves.
If you and your mates aren't interested in working routes then that's fine obviously, but it probably means you're not catching lots of falls.
I'm not finding the process of learning sport belaying as an experienced trad belayer at all easy, but I've taken the first step which is realising that i have something to learn, that the technique and mindset I had - "take in and brace" as you eloquently put it - isn't the right tool for the job.
Post edited at 17:30
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In reply to AlanLittle:
No all I mean by that is that I approach a sports climb as I do every other climb. On sight and attempt to get up it without falling off or pulling on gear. It's the Redpointing I don't do. I probably climb more sports routes than trad these days as it offers fresh new rock to someone who has been around a long, long time. I even go to Kalymnos twice a year so I can hardly claim to not like sports climbing. It's just my attitude is not that of a typical sports climber. That's why I say I climb on bolts rather than sports climb as I can see a subtle distinction. Too clever for my own good, that's my problem. and I don't mean clever in the intelligent way.
Al
No all I mean by that is that I approach a sports climb as I do every other climb. On sight and attempt to get up it without falling off or pulling on gear. It's the Redpointing I don't do. I probably climb more sports routes than trad these days as it offers fresh new rock to someone who has been around a long, long time. I even go to Kalymnos twice a year so I can hardly claim to not like sports climbing. It's just my attitude is not that of a typical sports climber. That's why I say I climb on bolts rather than sports climb as I can see a subtle distinction. Too clever for my own good, that's my problem. and I don't mean clever in the intelligent way.
Al
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In reply to UKC News:
Poor Guys.
No matter how experience, a soft catch from the belayer isn't always possible. And always climbing with the rope dead on centre between your legs is near on impossible. A calculated risk we all take.
Not sure I approve of the wording of the original reddit post -
"The belayer could have given a softer catch with a dynamic belay, this was mostly due to a lack of experience".
Perhaps it would have been better to leave others to critique, rather than ripping into your mate and making him feel even worth than he probably already feels. If I were the belayer, I'd be a little upset at my friend's comments criticising me on a public forum, even if it is so that everyone can learn from my mistakes.
Poor Guys.
No matter how experience, a soft catch from the belayer isn't always possible. And always climbing with the rope dead on centre between your legs is near on impossible. A calculated risk we all take.
Not sure I approve of the wording of the original reddit post -
"The belayer could have given a softer catch with a dynamic belay, this was mostly due to a lack of experience".
Perhaps it would have been better to leave others to critique, rather than ripping into your mate and making him feel even worth than he probably already feels. If I were the belayer, I'd be a little upset at my friend's comments criticising me on a public forum, even if it is so that everyone can learn from my mistakes.
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In reply to GridNorth:
Al,
Yes, it was clear to me that that was the distinction you were making and I totally agree with it. I also suspect you're "climbing on bolts" far more proficiently than I'm redpointing. But I have got into redpointing in the last couple of years, and one of the things I realised pretty quickly when I did was that I needed to learn a whole new attitude and technique for belaying. I wouldn't claim to be proficient at it yet, but I'm learning, and I would be pretty peeved if my belayer slammed me into the wall unnecessarily.
(Btw I'm not saying that's what the belayer in the video did. He did appear to have the climber on a very tight rope, but maybe that's because he was aware of the impact hazard.)
Al,
> climb on bolts rather than sports climb as I can see a subtle distinction
Yes, it was clear to me that that was the distinction you were making and I totally agree with it. I also suspect you're "climbing on bolts" far more proficiently than I'm redpointing. But I have got into redpointing in the last couple of years, and one of the things I realised pretty quickly when I did was that I needed to learn a whole new attitude and technique for belaying. I wouldn't claim to be proficient at it yet, but I'm learning, and I would be pretty peeved if my belayer slammed me into the wall unnecessarily.
(Btw I'm not saying that's what the belayer in the video did. He did appear to have the climber on a very tight rope, but maybe that's because he was aware of the impact hazard.)
In reply to AlanLittle:
I don't think the belayer could give a dynamic belay as his leg was braced against the slope and as you say the rope looked quite snug to start with.
Al
I don't think the belayer could give a dynamic belay as his leg was braced against the slope and as you say the rope looked quite snug to start with.
Al
Post edited at 18:30
In reply to Kieran Duncan:
Many years ago now I fell off when a hold broke, somersaulted backwards and, I think, caught my forearm between the rock and my hip resulting broken ulna which has to be plated. Still hurts on cold days!
Many years ago now I fell off when a hold broke, somersaulted backwards and, I think, caught my forearm between the rock and my hip resulting broken ulna which has to be plated. Still hurts on cold days!
In reply to jkarran:
Completely agree
> Whether you're whipped in by a tight rope or swing in on a softer rope hitting the wall still hurts once you're out of control. I think the thing we often fail to appreciate is how much skill and leg muscle is involved in safely landing a fall be it onto the wall or the floor. Once you're flipped and or facing out you just crunch into whatever's behind and below you which head first can obviously be serious. Avoiding getting tangled/flipped is very important but with the best will in the world it can still happen from time to time.
> jk
Completely agree
In reply to GridNorth:
True. Which is why most of us could do with more practice in holding falls. Isn't it a bit strange that the most important job in climbing is so rarely practiced by most of us. Especially as indoor walls make practicing so easy.
> I still maintain however that most peoples reaction to a falling climber is to brace and lock especially with a regular belay device.
True. Which is why most of us could do with more practice in holding falls. Isn't it a bit strange that the most important job in climbing is so rarely practiced by most of us. Especially as indoor walls make practicing so easy.
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In reply to David Coley:
I saw this video via UKC,
vimeo.com/4026166
At 3.16 - if the girl caught her leg as Callum and hit a sharp bit of limestone would she have injured herself ? despite all the practice.
> True. Which is why most of us could do with more practice in holding falls. Isn't it a bit strange that the most important job in climbing is so rarely practiced by most of us. Especially as indoor walls make practicing so easy.
I saw this video via UKC,
vimeo.com/4026166
At 3.16 - if the girl caught her leg as Callum and hit a sharp bit of limestone would she have injured herself ? despite all the practice.
In reply to GridNorth:
Suggesting using a particular device over learning how to correctly belay? Belayer has all the time in the world to think about the variables, and should be ready to give the appropriate catch at any moment. If you can't do that, no offence meant, you're simply a bad/dangerous belayer.
> Personally I think the best way to give a dynamic belay is to use an appropriate device because my instinct would, I am fairly certain, be to take in or lock off to minimise the distance of a fall. The belayer does not often have the luxury of time to think about all the variables. I use a Mammut Smart which I understand does just that i.e it's designed to give a softer fall as it allows some rope slippage.
Suggesting using a particular device over learning how to correctly belay? Belayer has all the time in the world to think about the variables, and should be ready to give the appropriate catch at any moment. If you can't do that, no offence meant, you're simply a bad/dangerous belayer.
Post edited at 10:52
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In reply to Jim Hamilton:
Possibly, but nothing like as badly as if the belayer had not given a soft catch, i.e. had not practised soft catching. The best falls are the ones just before her's - look at how far the belayer travels across the floor. When she falls, the belayer is in a more constrained position so goes for travelling up the route instead. In both cases, I'm guessing the belayers had a plan before the fall, or enough falls held to react fast enough, by instinct.
> I saw this video via UKC,
> At 3.16 - if the girl caught her leg as Callum and hit a sharp bit of limestone would she have injured herself ? despite all the practice.
Possibly, but nothing like as badly as if the belayer had not given a soft catch, i.e. had not practised soft catching. The best falls are the ones just before her's - look at how far the belayer travels across the floor. When she falls, the belayer is in a more constrained position so goes for travelling up the route instead. In both cases, I'm guessing the belayers had a plan before the fall, or enough falls held to react fast enough, by instinct.
In reply to ColmShannon88:
You are mis-representing what I said. No offence but in my long climbing career I've probably held more falls than you have had hot dinners.
You are mis-representing what I said. No offence but in my long climbing career I've probably held more falls than you have had hot dinners.
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In reply to David Coley:
I appreciate that a more “forgiving” belay would have lessened Callum’s impact, but even at a sanitised climbing wall, with an experienced belayer, and an empty flat floor to run across and jump around on , the girl in the video still slams into the wall, so I don’t think it’s a panacea. What about multi pitch ?
I appreciate that a more “forgiving” belay would have lessened Callum’s impact, but even at a sanitised climbing wall, with an experienced belayer, and an empty flat floor to run across and jump around on , the girl in the video still slams into the wall, so I don’t think it’s a panacea. What about multi pitch ?
1
In reply to Jim Hamilton:
I didn't say it was a panacea. But it will help a lot, but you need to practice. She doesn't really slam into the wall, but she does hit it. The idea is that the speed is lower so the chance of injury less.
I didn't say it was a panacea. But it will help a lot, but you need to practice. She doesn't really slam into the wall, but she does hit it. The idea is that the speed is lower so the chance of injury less.
1
In reply to Bogwalloper:
I find regularly practicing falls (on the indoor wall) gets rid of the instinct to do this and makes your default instinct instead to fall properly.
> I cringe when my old timer climbing partner is about to fall. He quite often tries to grab the quickdraw mid-fall. One day he'll do some real damage.
I find regularly practicing falls (on the indoor wall) gets rid of the instinct to do this and makes your default instinct instead to fall properly.
In reply to simonzxr:
I can't tell if he's taking in during the fall but when a climber is above a bolt on the lip of an overhang, it's certainly possible to force a sort of arc slamming in to the rock doing that. Whilst a little slack in the system just allows a fall down on to the rope and much less speed of movement towards the rock face. I've done similar on some sandstone top ropes where the belay is well to the side. It's usually much better to have some slack in the system than a tight rope in this case.
The video also illustrates to me why I wear a lid that can take side and rear impacts!
> It looks to me like he takes rope in as the climber is falling so I would say that to do a soft catch you shouldn't do that— this may not always be appropriate though.
> As an aside I often notice that when someone thinks they're going to fall or they are about to jump off, they usually shout 'take!' (we're all guilty of that one )...it's worth pointing out that it should be the belayer that decides if that is the appropriate course of action or not, even if it slightly inconveniences the climber because they fall further!
I can't tell if he's taking in during the fall but when a climber is above a bolt on the lip of an overhang, it's certainly possible to force a sort of arc slamming in to the rock doing that. Whilst a little slack in the system just allows a fall down on to the rope and much less speed of movement towards the rock face. I've done similar on some sandstone top ropes where the belay is well to the side. It's usually much better to have some slack in the system than a tight rope in this case.
The video also illustrates to me why I wear a lid that can take side and rear impacts!
2
In reply to GridNorth:
"I don't think the belayer could give a dynamic belay as his leg was braced against the slope and as you say the rope looked quite snug to start with."
Both of which are basically errors, no?
"I don't think the belayer could give a dynamic belay as his leg was braced against the slope and as you say the rope looked quite snug to start with."
Both of which are basically errors, no?
1
In reply to AlanLittle:
I've taken the lob off the next route over (as have many!), and belayed a friend on the route in question, and I'm not really convinced there is any "impact hazard". It's pretty damn steep at the top, and there is a safe fallout zone. See pic from below here :
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=172193
> He did appear to have the climber on a very tight rope, but maybe that's because he was aware of the impact hazard.
I've taken the lob off the next route over (as have many!), and belayed a friend on the route in question, and I'm not really convinced there is any "impact hazard". It's pretty damn steep at the top, and there is a safe fallout zone. See pic from below here :
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=172193
1
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Absolutely. The falling climber generates angular momentum about a pivot at the bolt. Since angular momentum is conserved, if the radius of the arc is reduced by taking in rope, the speed at which the climber follows the arc *must* increase. Conversely, with a soft catch you increase the radius of the arc during the fall, which will decrease the speed of the climber around the arc.
> it's certainly possible to force a sort of arc slamming in to the rock doing that
Absolutely. The falling climber generates angular momentum about a pivot at the bolt. Since angular momentum is conserved, if the radius of the arc is reduced by taking in rope, the speed at which the climber follows the arc *must* increase. Conversely, with a soft catch you increase the radius of the arc during the fall, which will decrease the speed of the climber around the arc.
1
In reply to simonzxr:
Not really a good idea giving a soft catch when someone falling upside down as the risk of head injury is to great. Has to be the responsibility of the climber not too fall with the rope behind the leg or foot or deal with the consequences, can't blame the belayer.
Not really a good idea giving a soft catch when someone falling upside down as the risk of head injury is to great. Has to be the responsibility of the climber not too fall with the rope behind the leg or foot or deal with the consequences, can't blame the belayer.
1
In reply to rockandsun:
Well, given Jim's first hand observation that there is no dangerous impact zone, the rope hould never have been as tight as it was in the first place. And if you stop motion through the video, you can see that the climber's foot doesn't get caught until he is in mid air, so he *might* not have been upside down if the belayer hadn't been actively giving the hardest possible catch.
Well, given Jim's first hand observation that there is no dangerous impact zone, the rope hould never have been as tight as it was in the first place. And if you stop motion through the video, you can see that the climber's foot doesn't get caught until he is in mid air, so he *might* not have been upside down if the belayer hadn't been actively giving the hardest possible catch.
1
In reply to UKC News:
Surely the conclusion is that sometimes s**t happens?
And consider wearing a helmet, or is that too controversial :P
Surely the conclusion is that sometimes s**t happens?
And consider wearing a helmet, or is that too controversial :P
Post edited at 14:17
4
In reply to rockandsun:
How so? I mean, a soft catch is only really appropriate on a steep or overhanging wall with no ledges etc that the leader might bounce off. In those circumstances, I don't see how a hard catch is somehow more appropriate when the climber is upside down. On the contrary, if the climber is upside down I would say a hard catch is even more dangerous than if they're the right way up.
How so? I mean, a soft catch is only really appropriate on a steep or overhanging wall with no ledges etc that the leader might bounce off. In those circumstances, I don't see how a hard catch is somehow more appropriate when the climber is upside down. On the contrary, if the climber is upside down I would say a hard catch is even more dangerous than if they're the right way up.
1
In reply to rockandsun:
While the best situation is for the climber not to invert, it is the even more imperative for the belayer to give a soft catch (so long as this doesn't result in hitting an obstruction). Once invertted the climber can do nothing to absorb the impact force but the belayer can massively reduce it by adding rope to the system (a 'soft catch'); certainly not as it seems here removing rope from the system....
While the best situation is for the climber not to invert, it is the even more imperative for the belayer to give a soft catch (so long as this doesn't result in hitting an obstruction). Once invertted the climber can do nothing to absorb the impact force but the belayer can massively reduce it by adding rope to the system (a 'soft catch'); certainly not as it seems here removing rope from the system....
1
In reply to UKC News: Hmmmn. A lot of blame and criticism seems to be attaching itself to the belayer who was said to be inexperienced. I think if there's a blame culture (and there seems to be one here) then those supervising in the group may not have supervised closely enough or maybe the team should have chosen a more experienced belayer for that route???Seems like when I was back in school and the most inexperienced football player was put in goal and them blamed for letting the goals in....
1
In reply to obi-wan nick b:
I don't see the observations people are making as "blaming" the belayer. It is obvious that the catch was unnecessarily hard, and it is possible that this may have contributed to the climber flipping and getting injured. This is not a value judgement and has nothing to do with who is to "blame" - a belayer who didn't know any better, or a climber who chose to go on a route at his limit with an inexperienced belayer.
There's been a lot of talk on here lately about whether/how we can discuss and learn from accidents without hurting the feelings of the people involved, and I think this is a pretty clear case where we can learn some lessons.
The lesson I personally am taking away is that hard catches are more hazardous than I previously thought. I know I still have a tendency to give hard catches - old-school traddie belayer - so I need to put some more work into my sport belaying technique. And be a little more careful on the lead with some of my mates who I know are nervous belayers.
> Hmmmn. A lot of blame and criticism seems to be attaching itself to the belayer who was said to be inexperienced.
I don't see the observations people are making as "blaming" the belayer. It is obvious that the catch was unnecessarily hard, and it is possible that this may have contributed to the climber flipping and getting injured. This is not a value judgement and has nothing to do with who is to "blame" - a belayer who didn't know any better, or a climber who chose to go on a route at his limit with an inexperienced belayer.
There's been a lot of talk on here lately about whether/how we can discuss and learn from accidents without hurting the feelings of the people involved, and I think this is a pretty clear case where we can learn some lessons.
The lesson I personally am taking away is that hard catches are more hazardous than I previously thought. I know I still have a tendency to give hard catches - old-school traddie belayer - so I need to put some more work into my sport belaying technique. And be a little more careful on the lead with some of my mates who I know are nervous belayers.
Post edited at 06:52
In reply to AlanLittle: Likewise, I hadn't even heard of a soft catch until a few months ago and like Gridnorth I tend to "climb on bolts" sometimes rather than "sports climb" so this has been a real eye opener for me and v useful discussion.
1
In reply to AlanLittle:
Agreed.
> I don't see the observations people are making as "blaming" the belayer.
Agreed.
In reply to natetan:
I seem to recall a very nasty fall last year involving a female climber (also at Kalymnos) who appeared to go head first into the rock and a few people posted, including me, how it looked potentially quite serious. The response from people claiming it was ridiculous to suggest you could get injured on a 'sport' climb was quite strong. I'll say no more....
I seem to recall a very nasty fall last year involving a female climber (also at Kalymnos) who appeared to go head first into the rock and a few people posted, including me, how it looked potentially quite serious. The response from people claiming it was ridiculous to suggest you could get injured on a 'sport' climb was quite strong. I'll say no more....
In reply to simonzxr:
Ive waited for 3hrs on a rescue chopper holding a guys head together , maybe once you've done that you'll see my point.
Ive waited for 3hrs on a rescue chopper holding a guys head together , maybe once you've done that you'll see my point.
2
In reply to jaggy bunnet:
Having sustained a serious head injury myself while climbing, I completely agree with you.
We should always keep the debate going on helmets. One day they will be as acceptable in climbing as they are in cycling.
Having sustained a serious head injury myself while climbing, I completely agree with you.
We should always keep the debate going on helmets. One day they will be as acceptable in climbing as they are in cycling.
4
In reply to VirtualRanger:
What's the 'debate'?
They are already completely acceptable.
> We should always keep the debate going on helmets.
What's the 'debate'?
> One day they will be as acceptable in climbing as they are in cycling.
They are already completely acceptable.
In reply to Jim Brooke:
While the conclusion may well be correct, the mechanics is clearly more complicated than that (and the conclusion far from obvious). More slack means the climber falls further and there is more time for the moment of their weight about the bolt to increase their angular momentum about it, so their angular momentum will in fact be greater in a softer catch. You need to argue that the greater radius more than compensates for the greater angular momentum. Rope stretch will also introduce complictions and possibly important considerations.
> The falling climber generates angular momentum about a pivot at the bolt. Since angular momentum is conserved, if the radius of the arc is reduced by taking in rope, the speed at which the climber follows the arc *must* increase. Conversely, with a soft catch you increase the radius of the arc during the fall, which will decrease the speed of the climber around the arc.
While the conclusion may well be correct, the mechanics is clearly more complicated than that (and the conclusion far from obvious). More slack means the climber falls further and there is more time for the moment of their weight about the bolt to increase their angular momentum about it, so their angular momentum will in fact be greater in a softer catch. You need to argue that the greater radius more than compensates for the greater angular momentum. Rope stretch will also introduce complictions and possibly important considerations.
In reply to UKC News:
That wouldn´t happen to be a bolt he climbed past before he fell off would it? The one at nipple height before he started flailing.
That wouldn´t happen to be a bolt he climbed past before he fell off would it? The one at nipple height before he started flailing.
1
In reply to Rob Parsons:
I'm not sure if you've misunderstood me. I'm in favour of helmets but they're definitely not as universally worn or accepted in climbing as they are in cycling. Nowhere near.
Someone earlier was saying don't start a debate on helmets, I'm saying we should because talking about them will increase awareness/acceptability.
I'm not sure if you've misunderstood me. I'm in favour of helmets but they're definitely not as universally worn or accepted in climbing as they are in cycling. Nowhere near.
Someone earlier was saying don't start a debate on helmets, I'm saying we should because talking about them will increase awareness/acceptability.
1
In reply to VirtualRanger:
I'm puzzled as to what you mean by "accepted". Are you saying you've seen or heard of people experiencing hostility/ridicule for wearing helmets when others aren't? I can't say I have.
I very rarely wear one sport climbing - although I've been at a few crags where I've mildly regretted not bringing one for belaying. I'd be pretty peeved if my partner showed up for an alpine route without one.
In trad climbing I've seen the "helmet question" go full circle. When I started in the early 80s most people, including me, wore those great big heavy Joe Brown fibreglass jobs. Then they went heavily out of fashion for summer rock climbing, with the - not entirely spurious - argument that they mucked up your spatial awareness, banged on overhangs and generally made you more likely to fall off. Nowadays I get the impression that the modern lighter, less obtrusive helmets are pretty much generally worn again for trad climbing.
Partly fashion, true, but mostly people making their own judgement of perceived risk vs quality/suitability of available kit. So what's the debate?
I'm puzzled as to what you mean by "accepted". Are you saying you've seen or heard of people experiencing hostility/ridicule for wearing helmets when others aren't? I can't say I have.
I very rarely wear one sport climbing - although I've been at a few crags where I've mildly regretted not bringing one for belaying. I'd be pretty peeved if my partner showed up for an alpine route without one.
In trad climbing I've seen the "helmet question" go full circle. When I started in the early 80s most people, including me, wore those great big heavy Joe Brown fibreglass jobs. Then they went heavily out of fashion for summer rock climbing, with the - not entirely spurious - argument that they mucked up your spatial awareness, banged on overhangs and generally made you more likely to fall off. Nowadays I get the impression that the modern lighter, less obtrusive helmets are pretty much generally worn again for trad climbing.
Partly fashion, true, but mostly people making their own judgement of perceived risk vs quality/suitability of available kit. So what's the debate?
Post edited at 20:13
In reply to simonzxr:
Of course it's personal choice; but it should be informed personal choice.
There are popular misconception that helmets aren't needed on sports climbs because they are too steep for risk from falling rock, routes are bolted to make falling safe and only numpties allow themselves to get their rope behind their leg.
I had a very bad scare a few years ago falling off a sport route near the end of a longish run-out. Somehow the rope ended up behind my leg and I inverted banging back of my head; I was hanging upside down unconscious for a good few minutes. After a few days bad headaches I checked into A&E and after a scan ended up in hospital for a couple of days. Fortunately no lasting problems or effects but now I always wear a helmet sport climbing, and make sure it's one with good back of head protection
> Don't let this turn into a helmet/no helmet debate- that's personal choice
Of course it's personal choice; but it should be informed personal choice.
There are popular misconception that helmets aren't needed on sports climbs because they are too steep for risk from falling rock, routes are bolted to make falling safe and only numpties allow themselves to get their rope behind their leg.
I had a very bad scare a few years ago falling off a sport route near the end of a longish run-out. Somehow the rope ended up behind my leg and I inverted banging back of my head; I was hanging upside down unconscious for a good few minutes. After a few days bad headaches I checked into A&E and after a scan ended up in hospital for a couple of days. Fortunately no lasting problems or effects but now I always wear a helmet sport climbing, and make sure it's one with good back of head protection
2
Climbing can be dangerous.
The belayer saved him from dying.
All involved made their choices.
Enough said.
... and since when did UKC go all nanny state touchy-feely about not hurting peoples feelings when genuine disection of climbing incidents take place? What happened to plain old truth in these matters?
The belayer saved him from dying.
All involved made their choices.
Enough said.
... and since when did UKC go all nanny state touchy-feely about not hurting peoples feelings when genuine disection of climbing incidents take place? What happened to plain old truth in these matters?
1
In reply to Robert Durran:
Well yeah, it certainly is more complicated than that... A correct argument is about conservation of energy - which is fixed at the point the rope starts to become tight, and has to either be absorbed by the rope/belayer, or through impact of the falling climber. My point about angular momentum, while not strictly correct, was to illustrate how the *horizontal* speed of the falling climber will increase if the belayer takes in rope after it starts to go tight...
One thing :
Having more slack out does not equal a soft catch! A soft catch is about increasing the amount of energy absorbed by the rope/belayer system, most easily achieved by the belayer moving towards the wall after the rope starts to come tight.
Well yeah, it certainly is more complicated than that... A correct argument is about conservation of energy - which is fixed at the point the rope starts to become tight, and has to either be absorbed by the rope/belayer, or through impact of the falling climber. My point about angular momentum, while not strictly correct, was to illustrate how the *horizontal* speed of the falling climber will increase if the belayer takes in rope after it starts to go tight...
One thing :
> More slack means the climber falls further
Having more slack out does not equal a soft catch! A soft catch is about increasing the amount of energy absorbed by the rope/belayer system, most easily achieved by the belayer moving towards the wall after the rope starts to come tight.
In reply to Jim Brooke:
Having more slack out does mean the horizontal speed of the climber is reduced as the period of the pendulum has increased. A "soft catch" merely attenuates the impact so reducing the maximum force, the rope/belayer system must always absorb all the fall the energy otherwise the climber wouldn´t stop, you can´t increase the amount absorbed above 100%.
> Well yeah, it certainly is more complicated than that... A correct argument is about conservation of energy - which is fixed at the point the rope starts to become tight, and has to either be absorbed by the rope/belayer, or through impact of the falling climber. My point about angular momentum, while not strictly correct, was to illustrate how the *horizontal* speed of the falling climber will increase if the belayer takes in rope after it starts to go tight...
> One thing :
> Having more slack out does not equal a soft catch! A soft catch is about increasing the amount of energy absorbed by the rope/belayer system, most easily achieved by the belayer moving towards the wall after the rope starts to come tight.
Having more slack out does mean the horizontal speed of the climber is reduced as the period of the pendulum has increased. A "soft catch" merely attenuates the impact so reducing the maximum force, the rope/belayer system must always absorb all the fall the energy otherwise the climber wouldn´t stop, you can´t increase the amount absorbed above 100%.
In reply to jimtitt:
This is only true if the leader falls cleanly into space. If the climber hits the rock, then some of the energy is absorbed in the impact, which is why it might hurt!
> the rope/belayer system must always absorb all the fall the energy otherwise the climber wouldn´t stop
This is only true if the leader falls cleanly into space. If the climber hits the rock, then some of the energy is absorbed in the impact, which is why it might hurt!
In reply to jimtitt:
Sorry, re-read your post and I see what you mean. Agreed - in the absence of impact, the point of a soft catch is to absorb the energy of the fall over a longer period of time, to reduce the force on the climber at any give moment.
Sorry, re-read your post and I see what you mean. Agreed - in the absence of impact, the point of a soft catch is to absorb the energy of the fall over a longer period of time, to reduce the force on the climber at any give moment.
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