UKC

I still find it a miracle that i'm able put this article across to you folks but here it goes. Injuries are as follows; Torn tricep and ligament. Disjointed elbow. Fractured metacarpal/carpal (hand). The first injuries have been operated on using a metal plate and pins to connect everything back together. Specialists have said that the impact force on my hand has weakened the joint connecting both metacarpal and carpal resulting in a potential early onset of arthritis.
All this originated from some uber poor belaying, which saw me hitting the deck from a height of 15m.

So here's what happened. I was climbing my last route of the night at the ever polished and popular 'cuttings' venue on Portland, Dorset. I got to the top of the route where i clipped both staples with quickdraws. My belayer had intended to do the route 'top rope' style so i left the gear in to prevent any unnecessary wear & tear on those staples. Correct me if i'm wrong but i believe this is common practice on sport climbs.

I shouted 'ok safe, coming down', to which my belayer replied, 'alright'. From then i leant back weighting the rope and that's when i thought my time was up. I started falling, wondering when the belay device would bite and stop me in my tracks. Nothing. The fall was a full on 15 metres from the top of the route to the stone hard ground. An impossible fall to survive from but my guardian angel was with me that day.

Turns out that my belayer misheard me thinking that i shouted 'slack'....presumably, in his mind, to thread the staples at the top, thus creating a top rope with no gear left behind. So at the precise moment when i weighted the rope, my belayer paid it out, losing control of the rope. He claimed he couldn't regain control due to the rope going through the belay device (dmm bug) so fast. I don't think by any means that this was done on purpose but i do think there are some fundamental flaws to be highlighted here;
Firstly, there were no 'eyes on the climber' during this stage. Something which needs to happen for both parties.
Also, i believe that my belayer would have paid out slack in a nonchalant manner where there is no lock off on the belay device for every rope length paid out.
This would happen if you were to use a grigri as the cam would try to engage, or if you were to use a reverso, the teeth would attempt to clamp down on the rope when given out. So why not make the adjustment of holding the rope in a 'lock off' position every time you pay out the rope when using a dmm bug. Don't just feed the rope through with the belay device constantly open.
Although this may be seen by some as just an act of complacency, i assure you that complacency can creep into any partnership. Incidents like this never seem possible until they actually happen to you. Just like being in a car crash as a result of not checking mirrors.

I'd like to hear from anyone that's had similar injuries whilst climbing as i don't really know what to do with myself at the moment.

I hope this makes people out there think more whilst on the crag and that you become totally aware of everything you do. Remember when you first got lowered off a climb and how scary it was...how much communication was involved, how much trust there is between you and your partner.

Thanks for reading my story.

George

In reply to gkrgeorge: First of all, you're lucky to be alive and walking. Stuff like this usually ends with someone dead or a wheelchair. Crap belaying is the norm and it makes me shudder. I usually say something to people who don't have any concept of what they're doing.

You say that "He claimed he couldn't regain control due to the rope going through the belay device (dmm bug) so fast. I don't think by any means that this was done on purpose but..."

From the way you've written it is sounds like you don't believe his story and that you have a suspicion you think he did it on purpose. Unless he's a psychopath then he didn't; he simply f*cked up and he knows it. He's incredibly lucky that he isn't responsible for your death or disablement. My advice, never climb with him again, and never climb with people who don't take belaying seriously.

In reply to gkrgeorge:

Thanks for sharing your story, get well soon.

In reply to gkrgeorge:

Bad news fella, I hope you recover well!
I've always used a sticht plate (without the spring and on a short cord), which most of the time, especially with doubles, you have to work to feed the rope(s) through. Which, with any tension on the lead rope, it locks off straight away.

In reply to gkrgeorge:

Really sorry to hear how badly you were hurt. Lucky to be alive for sure!! Not keeping the device at least partially locked off between giving out slack is poor belaying technique in my mind.

The biggest mistake is not being absolutely sure what is going on with the other member of the climbing team. If I'm climbing I always make sure the belayer has got me before I weight the rope when getting lowered off, and likewise when I'm the belayer I always make sure that I've understood what the climber wants me to do (and not just by sound alone if possible! Hearing a command and then seeing that they want lowering or taking in or whatever as well).

These kind of accidents always depress me because at the end of the day it's an entirely preventable lapse on the belayers part that could have cost you your life........Hope you don't climb with this person again! and that they learn from their mistake

In reply to gkrgeorge:

I don't quite understand how he dropped you. He pays slack, you take a fall but if he was holding the brake end of the rope this wouldn't have happened surely?

In reply to gkrgeorge:

I've suffered from the "running out of rope while lowering" classic. Had a couple of x rays but got away with it with cuts and bruises. My friend did the same thing but wasn't so lucky. Another simple complacent cock up that could have been prevented easily.

When lowering off sport routes I tend to look at what the belayer is doing and feel for the rope going tight before leaning back, but I appreciate that's not much of a redundancy and not always possible based on the route and your position. Eyes on the climber, and eyes on the belayer if possible. I would also normally mention that I'm just going to clip the chains with a draw and lower straight off so the belayer is definitely aware they shouldn't pay out loads of slack at any point.

Thanks for sharing, I hope you recover fully and it doesn't hold your climbing back.

In reply to gkrgeorge:

Sounds like a genuine mistake through a massive cock up! Glad you are still alive.

However...

I do think that you should always take some personal responsibility for things like this. Did you look down at your belayer? Did you make eye contact? Did you wait for the rope to go tight before leaning back?

I don't want to come across as being mean or anything but I always make sure that the rope has gone tight before leaning back, always have, it only takes an extra second and is well worth it in my opinion.

Simon

In reply to gkrgeorge: firstly, get well soon

Secondly, to those who say never climb with that person again, what if the belayer was George's son or brother or partner? Doesn't sound so easy now.

Thirdly, accidents like this are down to human error which is impossible to totally eradicate. We do things ok 100 times and get complacent on the 101st. Communications is a two way thing so its important that both parties are sure, maybe they were, easy to f**k up.

Lastly, i suspect even with a bug, unless 15m of slack was let out, there would have been some drag keeping you below 9.81ms-2. Maybe that,s what kept you out of a wheelchair.

Discuss with your belayer, see what's been learned. If that was me I'd be pig sick and determined that I made sure it could never happen again.

Hope you get back to full health and enjoy your climbing in future.

In reply to gkrgeorge:

1- Stay clipped to anchor and weight the rope before unclipping
2- There is rarely any need to shout safe on a single pitch sport climb, slack and take should be all you need
3- Don't climb with this person again. A belayer that can let 15m of rope run through a plate without grabbing it is useless.

Get well soon!

In reply to Cheese Monkey:


Definitely. I thought this was going to be one of those 'I thought he was lowering me and he thought I was clipped in and and was going to abseil' scenarios that get people killed but it doesn't sound like it.

Even if you had wanted some slack, you were still on belay FFS! The situation was no different to requiring rope to be paid out while you were climbing - you still expect a fall to be arrested even if you fall during the act of paying out.

To the OP: you had an very lucky escape. Any competent belayer would have caught you within a few metres, misunderstanding or not. Hope you make a full recovery and find someone who will somehow help you rebuild your confidence by demonstrating their competence and reliability.

In reply to jsmcfarland:


Agree with this completely.

Good to share these stories. Most of us have been guilty of complacence some of the time.

In reply to gkrgeorge:

Glad you're okay and lived to tell the tale, but sounds to me like a classic case of miscommunication. "Safe..." (to me) implies you're in control of your position, not your belayer. Not sure if this is one of your normal calls, but I'd get things clear between both parties before you set out. Having said that, I'd have thought at only 15m up, your belayer should have been capable of seeing what you were doing and where you were in the lowering-off procedure. Again from my perspective: inattentive belayer means ex-belayer.

Injuries wise, I can't help sorry, but good luck with a speedy recovery.

In reply to gkrgeorge:

He may well be the most attentive belayer in the world after this

Al

In reply to gkrgeorge:
Wow glad your alive! Get well soon

I have mixed feelings on the topic, plus most belayers I see make me feel queasy.

I think most belays never expect someone to fall off, which worries me alot. I also think most don't know how to hold a really hard fall

I was almost dropped by a very close friend, I was really struggling on a sport route and kept telling them to watch me as right at my limit, I made it real clear I didn't think they were watching me as they were chatting. When I got to the chains (still talking) I clipped the rope in above my head and jumped off to test them. Sure enough I fell over half the height of the route as I felt the rope go thru their hand. I was livid....

A few years later, I basically did the same thing to a friend whilst trying to give them a soft catch during a big fall. I had been using a grigri 5 mins before and switched to an atc plate. Really scary. I had 3 deep grooves of rope burn in my brake hand from making sure he stopped

In reply to gkrgeorge:

The belayer is getting a bit of stick here, I think quite unfairly. Perhaps you're long term partners with a non-standard set of calls you routinely use and understand but blaming him for nonchalant belaying after you've called 'safe' seems a bit off. Safe means 'safe, you can take me off', you'd get nonchalant armfuls of slack from most people.

As to the claim he couldn't stop the rope once it was running, that seems entirely plausible without gloves which nobody wears but this is why they're almost universally recommended in belay plate instructions.

Your 'eyes up' point is fair but what would he have seen from 15m below to lead him to conclude your safe call didn't actually mean safe?

Anyway, I don't mean to be harsh and I am glad to hear you're not too badly hurt despite a big nasty fall. If the story you tell is accurate I don't think you should be so hard on your belayer and I do think you should invest in a gri-gri (or similar) and have a chat about what happened and what you each mean and understand by the various climbing calls you use. Your injuries will heal and if you want to climb again I'm sure you'll find a way, you'll just have to be patient. Engage with your physio and use the healing period to do something else you'd like to do but wouldn't have found the time for around climbing, treat it as an opportunity.

jk

In reply to Michael Hood:


Definitely, a Bug is quite grippy on single ropes.

If the belayer was moved around by the unexpected loading of the rope I can easily see how the situation would have been impossible for them to recover - once a weighted rope starts whizzing through a device there is only a fraction of a second to react.

In reply to gkrgeorge:

I am trying to think of a single situation where on a single pitch sport route I would let go of the breakrope. Even when the climber is threading the belay there is no reason not to keep a hand on that breakrope, it isn't exactly strenuous.

In reply to gkrgeorge:

Best wished for a steady recovery. The mistake YOU made was leaning back on the rope without double-checking that your 2nd had taken the slack in and was holding you ready to lower.

Chris

In reply to gkrgeorge:

Your belayer is a dick, but you should have weighted the rope to test first ( "take in", "that's me" )

You don't need to be able to see each other to be safe, but you do need to know what you are both doing even so! Tugs on the rope can be sufficient. But you should always be on belay and he should have caught you, or at least slowed you down.

I've seen people completely let go of the rope because their partner is tied in with slings, it's this sort of issue that can lead to the type of accident you've thankfully walked away from.

Glad your safe, good luck

In reply to gkrgeorge:














Lackadaisical belaying is something I regularly see. At climbing walls especially but frequently enough outdoors at sports climbing venues, not just in this country either. With particular reference to climbing walls it's surprising that more catastrophic incidents don't occur given the appallingly lax attitudes (from both management and climber) to belaying and correct procedure in general. George, you were very lucky and with luck you'll get over it. What may not be possible is that the climbing fraternity will learn anything
lasting from your experience and sloppy procedures will continue. Complacency did somebody say? Yes, that. And a lack of imagination.

In reply to JoshOvki:


Absolutely this, I don't let go of the brake rope until my climber is on the ground, it doesn't matter what they are doing at the top of the route, any slack they ask for gets paid out the same as if they were clipping on lead, I can't see why you would do it any other way.

As for never climbing with that partner again, I think you can safely assume they will be the most attentive belayer you ever had in the future (plus you might suggest they brush up on their belay skills with a course or something)

In reply to gkrgeorge:

Glad you off 'lightly' as, like you say, it could have been much worse. I wish you a speedy recovery.

It does sound like either a huge brain fart from the belayer (though from your description it doesn't sound likely he thought you were in any way attached to the clips), or more likely some piss poor belaying. Most people have done it, but it's stories like this that people need to read and take seriously - one day someone will fall or you'll misunderstand a call, and not having hold of the brake end of the rope is not something that should happen.

Also keeping specific universal calls is a good habit. I've seen a lot of assumptions of what odd calls mean, and also lots of confusion.

In reply to ashtond6:


Oh dear.

You've not seen the Bill Hicks thing on acid casualties learning to fly have you?

In reply to Jamie B:


I've sometimes watched the rope drop after pulling it from a single pitch sport route I've climbed and reflected on that. It doesn't take long to hit the deck from 15m, so once the belayer loses control of the rope, you're going to hit the ground. So don't lose control of the rope. However, I don't go along with the "perfect" belayer way of thinking, and recognise that even the best of climbing partners may make mistakes, although very rarely -- being human, after all. So, I do like back-ups in the system like using a gri-gri or similar.

In reply to Cheese Monkey:


this

In reply to gkrgeorge:

This must all be a horrible shock. As with so many accidents - it sounds like this was caused by a mixture of miscommunication and lack of attentiveness. Hopefully both parties would do things quite differently in future. I'd suggest that possibly this is best dealt with by you and your belayer (who presumably will be feeling pretty upset already even without this thread) speaking to each other in person. I hope you both recover physically and emotionally from this, and get back climbing soon.

Danny.

In reply to Cheese Monkey:

>> 2- There is rarely any need to shout safe on a single pitch sport climb, slack and take should be all you need

Surely even when sport climbing it is essential that the climbers communicate clearly, especially when it comes to lowering off? Lack of communication is the root cause here, crucially the climber and the belayer hadn't clearly agreed how they were going to tackle the route and what would happen at the top - clip or rethread? Everything which subsequently happened seems to stem from that misunderstanding, and different expectations of what was going to happen at the top of the route.

I think it is a little unfair to blame the belayer for his mistake in giving slack. If he thought the climber was going to rethread, he may have heard what he expected to hear. With this in mind, the climber's call of "safe" was misleading, and if the belayer had heard the word correctly he might have thought this meant that the climber was clipped to the top staples. Even though he actually misheard, it would still be be reasonable from his point of view to assume this if he believed the climber was going to rethread and thought he was being asked for slack. In either situation, why would he lock off? He would be expecting the climber to be secure and off the rope.

Whether the belayer should have been able to recover control of the rope, I cannot say as I have never been in that situation. It does rather looked as if he panicked. Certainly poor belaying contributed to this, but the climber also seems to have been a bit nonchalent and that also contributed.

There is a tendency to deride the standard climbing calls as only for novices, but whether you use them or your own version it is essential to have a clearly understood sequence so that both climber and belayer know what is happening. Complacency can be a killer, fortunately not in this case, but a lucky escape none the less.

Thanks to the OP for posting this experience as we can all learn from it. Hope you make a full recovery and get well soon.

In reply to gkrgeorge:

Ouch, sounds like a horrible fall - glad it wasn't any more serious.

For what it's worth, I' wouldn't be too harsh on your belayer, if he's genuinely believed that you've cried down that your safe, and asked for slack (to thread the belay assumable)then I can see why he's paid out slack. Safe is a dangerous word to use sometimes - as soon as you say it, you take responsibility for your own security (hence it's normally the cry once you're firmly attached to the next belay). I've seen similar incident where a fall was only just averted by someone else intervening after the climber called "Safe" when they weren't (in a climbing call context anyway).

Did you discuss with the belayer what the plan was for the top? Always a good idea on a sports route so that they are no assumptions on what's happening, esp if you are using different setups / systems through the day.

Also a good idea to make the belayer taking in slack (so that you feel the rope come tight) before you commit your weight to it for a lower off on this type of sports route. Sitting back onto a slack rope is never a good idea.

Once you were falling, again I can believe that the belayer wasn't able to regain control - the fall it's self would have been over in couple of seconds - if unexpected it's not surprising that he wasn't able to regain control before you hit the ground. I've had similar happen to me indoors where I fell about 12m and decked out as the rope was pulled through the belayers hand (they allowed themselves to be distracted at just the wrong time!) after I fell whilst trying to clip. Once control of a rope is lost, it's near impossible to regain before impact....

Lessons all round I think as the belayer shouldn't have switched off enough not to see what you were doing (esp on such a short pitch and with slack paid out), and if comms were easy then they should have double checked if in any doubt.

Similarly, slack or no slack their hand should have been on the dead end of the rope even if they thought you were "safe" since they were away to lower you off.

That said if they thought you were "safe" i.e. attached to the belay, then I can see why they may not have been fully attentive or had hands off the device.

Please don't take the above as negative criticism - more as a lessons learned where you've found ways to make your systems safer and better. Not so easy sitting laid up with injury I know......

Hope you have a fast recovery and it doesn't put you off climbing!

On the plus side, you've now got a belayer who will likely be super attentive and guilty enough to belay you more or less indefinitely on your next project route. :O)

Cheers,

Stuart

In reply to Michael Hood:


Whoever's belaying you there should be a zero tolerance policy towards screw ups and lack of attention. Sure, he might offend his son/brother etc, but that's better than being dropped and seriously injured/killed. Being nice to someone shouldn't take precedence over reliable belaying. Of course, a serious event like this might wake the belayer up for the future, but there would always be the memory of that failure which I wouldn't put up with. It's just a personal thing for me.

In reply to winhill:

haha, I was pretty angry at the time so wasn't thinking.... I figured they would get a big jolt but catch me...

although my experience later, gave me more sympathy for them

In reply to gkrgeorge:

I cant be bothered reading all the thread so this may well have been said already.

Clearly it's your belayer's fault overall but as with all climbing messages you want to get confirmation.

By that I mean, if you shout something you need to know your partner knows what you said and hes needs to know that you know he knows what you said.

So to put into practice it will go something like this:-

Clipping your top draws: "OK, take / Ok you got me?"

Belayer replies: "Yes, got you"

Then wait for the rope to come tight (this effectively confirms he's heard you and understood)

Then you weight the rope.

It's something I often do when threading belays, particularly before I un-clip from then chains, just to double confirm they have me back on belay / have taken the slack in before I detach.

In reply to gkrgeorge:

Interesting that everyone admits to regularly seeing incompetent belaying, but no one will admit to actually doing it. Kind of like the statistic that everyone thinks they're an above average driver.

In reply to gkrgeorge:

I shouted 'ok safe, coming down'

Your call here is the problem, combined with you not checking what your belayer was doing.

"Safe" means you are safe. Why use the word safe at all when you clearly are not and don't want your belayer to treat yo as safe.

"Coming down" - What should this mean? If you mean take, say take.

I think this is pretty much your fault completely.

In reply to planetmarshall:


Absolutely. The best belaying lesson I ever learnt was when I almost dropped my partner at the wall. The ramifications of my complacency and inattentiveness hit home like a truck, forcing me to up my game.

In reply to gkrgeorge:


I would strongly recommend tightening up on your communications. Keep it short and simple and bear in mind that safe usually means that you are safely tied into the anchors and don't need belaying.

In reply to gkrgeorge:

People calling 'SAFE' at the top of a single pitch sport route they want lowering off is one of my pet hates. It's an invitation to be taken off belay - and even if your belayer isn't that stupid and knows what's happening, it's still an easy thing to accidentally do automatically when you hear the call. The only two things you should ever need to call for are 'SLACK' and 'TAKE'. No ambiguity, no possibility to be taken off belay by accident, and hopefully no drama.

In reply to gkrgeorge:

Single word communication is key. Say take or slack, NEVER say them in the same sentence e.g. take-in slack. The second half of sentences have a horrible habit of getting lost in the wind. Eye to eye contact is not always possible. Safe means safe and I would take it to mean that if necessary I can take the person on the other end of the rope off the belay plate but on single pitch sport I cannot see any valid reason why you would want to do that. EVER. This is why I like assisted braking devices. I know they are not auto locking but everyone knows that in most circumstances that is exactly what they will do.

Glad to hear your injuries are not worse although they sound serious enough.

Al

In reply to GridNorth:

I don't agree. They sound much too alike from a distance. I don't where and when just "Take" crept into climbing language? It always used to be "Take in". You are far less likley to confuse "Take in" with "Slack"

To the OP. Thanks for sharing. Glad you are alive. I wish you a speedy recovery.

In reply to Trangia:

Yes you are quite right and indeed it's what I use but I don't think that slight difference is a huge issue. I just used "take" because that was what had been used previously in the thread but anyone who mistakes "take" for "slack" needs their ears testing I think "take" is used more often when someone thinks they may fall and "take in" in a less stressful situation.

Al

In reply to lowersharpnose:

Glad the OP is not too badly injured but I'm with you on this one. Miscommunication but Safe means Safe.

In reply to Trangia:

Agreed - and more worryingly, TAKE and SAFE sound very similar on a windy day...

In reply to gkrgeorge:

George, Thanks for posting as this must be very traumatic, hope you can get yourself back together.

I have only seen a belayer mistake in the gym, where the belayer fumbled the rope and the climber fell the full height, there must have been a fair bit of friction throught the belay device as the climber was ok, but the chances of any reaction once the rope is running is nil.

I will take away from this and a previous recent accident report, that
A clear plan and understanding between the climber and belayer needs to be sorted before leaving the ground; even if I feel awkward being pedantic.

Best Wishes.

In reply to Trangia:

true, they do sound alike, but a belayer should still be in control while giving slack, not just let go of the rope. If youre in control of the rope it should never get to the stage when its slipping through your hands too fast to stop because you will realise long before that something is wrong. So even if a belayer mishears 'take' as 'slack' then they should still have hold of the rope as they pay out and be able to lock off again. And if the belayer cant see the climber properly then they should be even more cautious when paying out slack.

In reply to gkrgeorge:

Man you are one lucky dude. Luckily I've never come close to this.

One tip I've found to be really useful is to ask the belayer to take in before I remove any off the top gear from the chains. This way you have proven that you are solely on the rope and can afford to remove gear. Its a subtle tip that people miss in the rush to lower off.

see this video for a demo http://dmmclimbing.com/knowledge/lowering-off-sport-route-vid/

I treat lower offs like abseiling. Triple test everything, you have on point of failure, which can be catastrophic if fails.

Climbing calls on a sports route and lowering off in particular are an interesting one. With my normal partner we only ever say "take" or "slack" in terms of climbing calls. More importantly to my mind, we never take the other off belay on a single pitch sports route. That way you should never be dropped even if there is some sort of a misunderstanding. The belayer keeps them on belay the entire time (it's not hard) and you only need to say "take" when you want to lower off.

We do back that up with a visual signal if possible (eye contact/thumb up by lead climber) just to double check your belayer is paying full attention, and then wait for the rope to come tight before weighting it.

My lighter belayer doesn't get on well with gri gris but has started to use a click-up which seems to work really well. She held me on a pretty massive fall once but got dragged up a long way and wanted an auto device of some form just in case she is jolted sufficiently to make her lose control of a normal device.

In reply to gkrgeorge:

I don't have too much to add that hasn't been said above somewhere. I would, however, like to wish you a very speedy recovery

Thanks for posting too - improved awareness amongst everyone and the opportunity to learn from others' mistakes has to be a good thing.

Mike.

In reply to gkrgeorge:




Last night I was giving some newbies some pointers, and one was, if sport climbing, never call "safe" as its a bad habit that some UK Trad climbers get into, and that one friend of mine was involved in a fatal accident and another in a near fatal, and along you come to prove the point. I hope all goes well for you.

In reply to gkrgeorge:

Hope you get better soon.

I can't even pretend to be a sport climber at this point, but 'safe' means 'I am responsible for my own protection, take me off belay if you want, have a sandwich if you want'. I get annoyed by people:
a) shouting 'safe' once they clip into a single bolt - you are not 'safe' in sport terms until you are attached by both bolts... it isn't usually necessary if your belayer is keeping you on belay but you are not 'safe'.
b) belayers taking people off belay, even if the climber has said they are safe. Normally it is just laziness...

If you shout 'safe' and subsequently wish to transfer back to someone else's protection then communication is needed to ensure this. As already pointed out this is rarely required. In fact you should be able to do a sport climb completely silently - there is no need for the belayer to stop belaying you at any point.

In reply to planetmarshall:


Well, I suspect those hanging out on UKC take their climbing skills a bit more seriously than the average.

In reply to gkrgeorge:

I think a very important lesson here especially for people starting out is don't get into a mind set that equates "bolted venue" with "safe venue".

In reply to lowersharpnose:






Probably a bit harsh. Let's say for examples sake the climber had actually said "Slack" (as the belayer heard). In that case we would expect the belayer to give out slack in a safe manner, and be ready to hold a fall if the climber falls right before the clip. This didn't happen.

Just about every other aspect of climbing has a back-up system. But accidentally/ignorantly saying safe, and then being taken off, has no backup. If the belayer exercises judgement when hearing 'safe', and treats it as a request (rather than a command), then the belayer can decide for themselves whether the climber meant to say safe/actually is safe. If I'm in doubt, I ask the climber "Are you safe <name>!?" (multiple times if I have to) to be sure.
Another example (didn't happen to me), but there were a few groups of climbers climbing. ClimberA shouted safe - and BelayerB thought that ClimberB said it (when they weren't safe), and so BelayerB took ClimberB off! This is a different scenario of course, but the same logic that the belayer should apply their judgement to the situation applies.

In conclusion - both at fault.

In reply to BarrySW19:

I'm not too sure - I've had a couple of real eye opening days out with folk I've arranged to meet from the site! Pushed my soloing grade if nothing else. Folk on here are probably similar to any other sample of climbers in terms of competence - a spread from inept to extremely competent.

I suspect it's more to do with difficulty in seeing our own sloppy habits and mistakes as just that. I had a really productive day with an MIC earlier in the year where they pointed out and picked up a few bad habits I'd developed, and suggested a few things I could do to make everything slicker and safer. If asked before hand I wouldn't have identified them as bad habits or things I could improve. I should add that nothing I was doing was unsafe though!! Just to stop my partners panicking.

I suspect that no-one sees themselves as an unsafe driver, unsafe climber, bad dog owner etc if asked. Though they will admit that they make the odd mistake......

Cheers,

Stu

In reply to StuDoig:


Ha ha - me too. One even got chucked out of the climbing wall I met him in within 5 minutes of us starting - due to his belaying.

In reply to SenzuBean:

Probably a bit harsh. Let's say for examples sake the climber had actually said "Slack" (as the belayer heard). In that case we would expect the belayer to give out slack in a safe manner, and be ready to hold a fall if the climber falls right before the clip. This didn't happen.

That is because the climber said 'safe'!

In reply to lowersharpnose:



Yes, but the belayer did not hear safe - hence my example: "Turns out that my belayer misheard me thinking that i shouted 'slack'"
My first paragraph implies that if the climber had said slack, then the belayer would've dropped them still - hence why I say the belayer was unsafe.

But if the belayer DID hear safe, then only my second paragraph applies.

In reply to gkrgeorge:

I wouldn't be too hard on your belayer. Certainly he didn't do well but as others have said the accident was as much due to team mis-comumication and team complacency as anything else. Sounds like there was no rebundance in the teams methods to catch any f*ck-up that may occur.

If you know your partner isn't the best belayer in the world, shouting "safe" and then launch off the top of a climb was always going to be a bit of a gamble.

A Grigri is a good investment.
Speedy recovery.

In reply to Que Sera Sera:


Rubbish!

Safe is a perfectly valid call when sport climbing. You just need to use it correctly.

In reply to JLS:

If you know your partner isn't the best belayer in the world, shouting "safe" and then launch off the top of a climb was always going to be a bit of a gamble.

If you *do* have the world's best belayer, shouting "safe" and launching off is still daft!

In reply to gkrgeorge:

The other problem with all of this is that it would be easy for a communication from a climber on an adjacent climb to be mistaken for a call from the person you are belaying. I once saw a nasty accident on Stanage specifically because of this.

Al

In reply to timjones:


But not necessary (except in multipitch or abseil descent).

In reply to andrewmcleod:


Maybe that's why I said that it should be used correctly

In reply to gkrgeorge:

You ask what to do with yourself now. It's obviously going to be a while before you can get back into climbing.

Presumably your feet and legs are ok?

if so, why not get into walking, if you are not doing it already? It's great exercise, sociable if you join a walking group - local Ramblers? - and will keep you fit.

Just a thought.

In reply to jkarran:


Exactly what I was thinking. Communication is the error here, not 'belaying error'

I never say "safe" when I want my belayer to remain in control of the rope. As a belayer, if I heard "Safe" I would expect the climber to be clipped into the bolts under his/her own safety line/extender until I was told otherwise.

In reply to timjones:

Whatever.

In reply to Derry:

Unfortunately I have to agree on that point.

IMO there is fault attributed to both parties here.

I agree with Al that when single pitch sport climbing you should never take your partner off belay when they are threading the staples / whatever.

Secondly a shout of safe generally means that no further belaying is required, the next thing you normally hear is off belay from you second!

I'd pretty much attribute the blame 50/50 myself.

In reply to Dandan:


For slow cleaners, it seems reasonable to give them enough slack to rethread, and then tie them off until they're ready to come down. Is that foolish?

In reply to humptydumpty:


How could it be,?
jk

In reply to timjones:


In the UK at least a shout of safe means you are either attached to anchors or at the top. Generally if trad climbing it means you no longer require belaying. I tend not to use it single pitch sport climbing as at that point some people take you off belay, which I'd rather they didn't. Instead when I want to thread the anchors I ask for plenty of slack. (that would be after I had been taken in, sat on the rope and attached to the anchors of course)

In reply to Que Sera Sera:


Now that is definitely not on the list of wise climbing calls

In reply to timjones:

lol

In reply to jkarran:

Not sure, but a couple of people have said they would never take their hand off the brake ever, and it sounded a bit absolute.

In reply to humptydumpty:
Once I've given my partner the required slack for threading the rope, then half the time I'm looking for my shoes or the like, rather than actively belaying. If my faffing about is going to involve removing my hand from the dead rope then I'll put a knot in the rope even though I'm using a Grigri. There's nothing wrong with not actively belaying, if a ground fall requires the leader to spontaneously unclip themselves, a Grigri not to auto-lock and knot to come undone. Trouble comes when you are relying purely on the leader not spontaneously unclipping themselves and don¡¦t have the other back stops in place. It's always good to have redundancy in a system to cover the extraordinary occurrences.

In reply to gkrgeorge:

Firstly I don't understand how even with plenty slack out the belayer was unable to stop the fall. It would surely be no more difficult than stopping a lead fall. My only conclusion is he can't belay properly.

But I have to agree with others that I can't understand why you would shout "safe" either. That's the last thing you should say. "Take in", "Got me?", even an ambiguous "OK?" would be better than shouting safe.

In reply to gkrgeorge:

I've got to admit, thought I'd probably question it if I didn't know my partner or knew they were a beginner; if someone shouted safe at me I would have given them a second and then removed the rope from the belay and gone to get a drink.

In reply to neuromancer:

That makes sense for a trad route but surely not for a sport lower off (you'll only have to put them back on again)?

In reply to Michael Gordon:

I admit it's uncommon, but there may be a number of reasons why he might want me to take him off belay; it being multipitch (I realise this wasn't the case here but calls are calls and responses are learned not always thought about) is one, but also what if the rap rings or chains are very worn and so he wants to ab off as he's worried about rope damage / fixed gear failure?

In reply to neuromancer:

Yeah I always thought command for safe was you were safe independently from rope. Ultimately it's the belayer's responsibility to stop the climber hitting the ground but this wasn't the right thing to communicate. That said it's easy to do. I had a similar thing happen to me where "take" was mistaken for "safe" and belayer paid me lots of slack. Fortunately he was using a gri gri so I fell half the crag. Gives me the willies thinking about it.

In reply to gkrgeorge:

I was up in Scotland a few years ago in winter. The wind was blowing and conditions were poor, there was a guy on lead 80ft up a route with one bit of gear at 50ft. I could see he was struggling to get his axe to bite, in frustration and fear I heard him shout "oh f...'s sake".... a couple of seconds later his belayer shouted up "off belay". As if he wasn't terrified enough already!

In reply to gkrgeorge:

Here we go, blah blah blah belayer to blame blah blah climber to blame blah bla.

But Chris Craggs nailed it this morning at 9:22, 18th post on th thread.

Leaning back on a slack rope before double checking that the belayer had you FFS!

Bog

In reply to Bogwalloper:


Isn't that a bit like 'blah blah climber to blame blah blah'?

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
Yes - but it doesn't stop this thread going to 80 posts.

Bog

In reply to gkrgeorge:
Me when reaching the top of a sport climb 'OK TAKE IN!'
My belayer upon hearing this, takes in and responds 'OK, LEAN BACK'

Simple, effective, and preventative. It would be pretty difficult to misunderstand, but even if they do misunderstand me, I'm not going to put myself in a position where their misunderstanding will put me in danger.

I'm inclined to say you're just as much at fault for sloppy drills, as he is.

However, I wish you well in recovery, and hope it doesn't put a stop your climbing. Good luck.

Edit speleleleleing

In reply to neuromancer:


Fair enough, though usually they'd communicate that fact

In reply to gkrgeorge:

Sorry to hear about your injuries, but ambiguous/misleading calls are potentially very dangerous, and you should be aware for future reference that you made a pretty big mistake:

In all climbing, SAFE always means "independently anchored, no longer relying on the belayer". In a sport climbing context it means your harness is directly attached to the top anchors (usually prior to an abseil descent). This call should not be used in any other situation. If you wish to be lowered off as normal, confine yourself to rope management calls such as SLACK, TAKE IN, etc.

In reply to humptydumpty:


Tying off is hardly the same as releasing the brake rope.

Belayer shoulds never let go of the dead end. Its complacency. To really keep yourself in a position to hold a fall when you think you won't be needed for a few minutes whilst the climber unties and reties is something people rarely do.

Climber should have tested the tension before being lowered off.

Both should have discussed the plan before starting to climb if if was too far or windy to discuss when at the top. Climber assumed that leaving two QDs attached was the plan, yes this is correct practice but plenty aren't so conscientious.

Climber is lucky to be posting this. Belayer is lucky not to have a lifetime of regret.

In reply to Martin Haworth:

It happens. I've been that belayer. I managed to wrongly infer from my mates garbled call with a tone of relief and indicative rope movements that he was safe on the belay when actually he'd just summed up the energy to launch into the crux. Luckily he heard my "off belay" call and made it quite clear I should put him back on belay prompto. No harm done but a lesson learnt, better to be over cautious than under cautious.

In reply to gkrgeorge:

Hey buddy, hope you have a speedy recovery. I was dropped at the end of January while taking a lead fall about 7 meters of the ground and broke my wrist, according to CCTV footage (this happened at a climbing wall) my partner gave me way too much slack and was not looking up as i was climbing. My confidence has been poor since but its improving.
What i'd like to say is that everyone can make mistakes and try not to raise fingers against each other regarding who has most of the blame for the accident.

In reply to gkrgeorge:

If I was your belayer, even if I was at fault, I'd be pretty aggrieved at being hung out to dry by my partner.

In reply to gkrgeorge:
I'm very glad you're still on the planet. Reflection after serious injury is a polarising experience.
You are in good company however; the same thing happened to a certain, very experienced and prolific climber who was belayed at the time by a very experienced climber. I won't name names, but you shouldn't feel too bad.

In reply to gkrgeorge:

I'm going out to buy some walkie fecking talkies.

Scary stuff!

Get well soon!

In reply to m dunn:


Yes, mentioned it in 2 threads now, it's starting to sound a bit (or a lot) bitter and hasn't come back to this thread.

I think we could be kind and say he's still in a bit of shock but he's not come back to this thread despite some good advice, so it's about settling scores not learning. It's a reminder to get to know who you're climbing with.

In reply to humptydumpty:


That's the trouble with internet fora, lot's of different opinions and no filter.
jk

In reply to gkrgeorge:

Hmm, shouting 'safe' seems a bit odd. I normally shout this when im in a postion of safety, looking after myself and the belayer can take me off if they want. Quite why they would on a sport route is anyones guess though.

A 15m ground fall fall is pretty huge, glad you are OK. Seems you have been blessed with more than one life.

In reply to Cheese Monkey:


"Safe", if you're going to use it, should ONLY be used if it is acceptable for the belayer to unclip the plate and take you completely off belay immediately. Using it for other purposes introduces the potential for dangerous confusion.

I tend to look down and shout "take" then something like "you got me?" when I'm wanting to be lowered off in a sport climbing manner.

Neil

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Surely the correct response to "safe" is to take off belay. I might ignore that if I felt it was a wrong call (can't see why you'd call it for sport), though. It is a statement that you no longer require belaying.

If you want *slack* e.g. to thread an anchor ask for that

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:


Some folk routinely abseil rather than lower from sport routes, generally when the routes aren't steep, so are easy to clean on abseil. Presumably they'll want to be taken off belay completely once they're clipped in and "safe". The advantage is that it wears the chain much less, but for anything steep cleaning becomes a ball-ache.

In reply to gkrgeorge:

As a complete novice to climbing (I only belay my 8yr old daughter) I find these discusions very informative. Even though I admit to not understanding everything you guys are discussing, it is great to read about the different circumstances that result in communication issues (Obviously not the resulting accidents).

I must admit to being led by my daughter. We double check everything and I don't do anything that she hasn't instructed me to do. At present we are only indoors (Lead climbing for her) but we plan to go outdoors. Trying to get suitable training sessions arranged for moving outdoors is proving a pain tbh but really looking forward to it.

In reply to Oldsign:


Which can be very useful for full rope run-out ice pitches or on sea-cliffs. Not terribly relevant to the situation of a 15m sports route though.

Like many others, I am puzzled by the reference to calling "safe" and still expecting your belayer to be protecting you. Safe explicitly means they no longer have that responsibility.

In reply to gkrgeorge:

It seems to me that all this talk about (mis)communication, although it has its place, misses the point here. The belayer gave slack in the expectation of lowering the leader and so was still on belay. He then lost complete control of---what?---a FF 0.07 leader fall? How was he ever going to hold a real leader fall if he couldn't manage a trivial one? I'd say this is primarily a serious belay failure with no excuses for misunderstanding the leader's intent. Do with that what you will.

Although I have great admiration for UK climbing norms, the use of "safe" has always struck me as whimsical at best, and surely is open to question in a large spectrum of circumstances in which it is applied. In the U.S. we say "off belay," which is unambiguous in it's implication---the belayer is henceforth relieved of all belay duties. Whether the leader is or is not safe might be an implication of this locution, but is not explicitly part of the statement at all. Yes, this is all a matter of linguistics, but a person who had clipped into an anchor and who wants to be lowered would never say "off belay."

In reply to rgold:

"Safe" in the UK tradition is also pretty unambiguous and whether the leader actually is "safe" or not it actually means the same thing, it means "you can take me off belay now".

In reply to rgold:


What's ambiguous about "safe"?

In reply to rgold:


if you shout "Safe" there is no need to shout "Off anything".
i hear safe , i take it you are ; as in you are in control of your own safety, and off belay you usually go.

In reply to deepsoup:

And in the context of a 15m sport climb, the leader is in a perfectly decent position to check that he's on belay, his belayer is paying attention, has taken slack in, and is ready to lower him, before deciding to launch himself off the cliff. Sure, this guy's belayer should have been more awake, but as a climber you've got to take some responsibility for yourself in these situations - i.e. checking that your belayer is ready to lower you off - which he's not going to be if you've just called "safe".

In reply to deepsoup:


It is interesting that all the replies were not about my main point but about my somewhat tongue-in-cheek linguistic critique, which has little or nothing to do with the accident.

That said, it is evident that the ambiguity that some are saying does not exist is on full display in this accident. The leader used the word "safe" when it was not appropriate---he did not mean to be taken off belay---and the belayer understood it in this inappropriate sense (by keeping the belay on but giving the leader slack for clipping). My only point is that this kind of ambiguity is harder to come by if the leader's call consists of an explicit belayer directive rather than a proclamation about the leader's existential state.

Don't get me wrong friends, I'm not suggesting anyone give up their time-honored procedures. Your belaying calls are safe with me.

In reply to rgold:

Isn´t "off belay" something the belayer would say, even in the US tradition? Has been a while since I was climbing alpine multipitch with some American friends, but that´s what I seem to recall.

We also agreed again on the commands we would use before every single climb. Otherwise, getting teams of Austrians, Germans who climbed a lot in the UK, Swiss who learned climbing in the US, and US climbers from a different part of the states to communicate in English would be a recipe for disaster.

CB

In reply to rgold:

shut up and take your biners with you, it's crabs D
but yeah we have a system that uses as little coms as possible , we never hear much over the wind , "off" would disappear and "belay" would be heard the second starts , shouting "climbing" (thinking i said "on belay") and i am thinking hang on i haven't shouted climb when ready or on belay whatever we use, they then shout "take in the slack" i hear slack feed out some rope , etc
and a back and forth of "ay what did you say" ensues.
we like it simple.

In reply to cb294:


If I recall Yanks call 'on belay' when they have tied in - not the expected 'off belay',


Chris

In reply to gd303uk:


The fact that you lads have crabs would, in the states, be taken as a sign of deficient personal hygiene.



I agree, simple is good. And whatever passes for "standard" practice in the U.S. is arguably excessive:

Leader: Off belay!
Second: Belay off!
(Pause...)
Leader: On belay!
Second: Climbing!
Leader: Climb!

Most of the people I climb with use the "off belay--belay off" calls whenever time efficiency seems important, because they allow the second to get ready to move while the leader is finishing the anchor and getting set up to belay. But the only other one we typically use is for the leader to shout "climb!" when they are ready to belay the second. The second usually just starts climbing, but if there has been a longish delay, they might shout "climbing" to wake up a leader who has since fallen asleep waiting for the second to get their act together.

Note that since the leader never shouts "on belay," their "off belay" call can never be mistaken for "on belay," even if the "off" part isn't heard.

In reply to rgold:

dude read your what to say list,




cough cough

In reply to rgold:




I don't get that. It's the same words, with the same capacity for bits not to be heard, just in a different order, and if you don't hear the important word the order is irrelevant.

I'm probably just being thick.

In reply to gd303uk:

In keeping with the best of UK traditions, and in view of the many times I've been benighted, I'd prefer being addressed as "Sir Dude."

The list you quoted was my "what not to say list." Since it didn't seem to be clear as I described it, what we use is

Leader: Off belay!
Second: Belay off!
(Pause...)
Leader: Climb!

That's it. Actually, with many of my regular partners, we manage most of the time with the ordinary rope motions (and, if visible, hand signals) and don't issue any calls at all.

But climbs involving the lowering of the climber through some top anchor require more communication.

(Pause...)
Person to be lowered: Take!
(Does not, however, lean back until belayer responds with
Belayer: Got! (As in "I've got you.")

Considering the relatively large number of accidents occurring in this situation, it makes sense to use a protocol similar to rappelling: the person to be lowered connects themselves to the anchor with some kind of tether and only unclips it when it is clear that the lowering system is functioning.

In reply to rgold:

ah i see , sorry Sir Dude

i must have read it wrong!

In reply to CurlyStevo:


I don't understand why anyone would take someone off belay on a single pitch sport route until they are back on the ground.

In reply to stp:

Sometimes, for various reasons, people rappel rather than be lowered, in which case they have to go off belay.

In reply to rgold:


Regarding the accident described in the OP, and your main point (which was what - that the accident described in the OP really shouldn't have happened?) there's really nothing much to say is there.

In reply to stp:

Yes I agree with that also and said as much.

However IMO that doesn't absolve the leader from any fault in this.

In reply to rgold:

Could you give an example? And wouldn't such be decided before leaving the ground - at the very least the lead climber would have to take an abseil device with them.

In reply to gkrgeorge:

Perhaps the most typical example is rappelling rather than lowering to spare wear on an anchor that may not have been set so that the lowering surfaces can be easily changed when they start to groove.

In an ideal world, the leader's intention to rappel or not to rappel would indeed be clear before climbing began. In the real world, both parties have at times been quite clear on what was going to happen while both having contradictory ideas.

In reply to stp:


Maybe read John Arrans post a wee bit earlier with regards your first point? And one would think so with regards your second point (although probably not relevant to the OP - although as the OP seems to have gone to ground, who cares?).

In reply to Andrew Kinnersley:

>Trying to get suitable training sessions arranged for moving outdoors is proving a pain tbh but really looking forward to it.

Have you looked at the courses offered by The National Mountain Centre / Plas-y-Brenin? I don't know if they cater for 8 year olds but I do know that they close their centre to adults for two weeks each summer and run a range of climbing courses for youths. One in particular is called something like "touching rock" and is aimed at exactly your daughter's situation. My daughter loves the courses and has made great friends while on them - highly recommended.

In reply to gkrgeorge:

I wonder whether videos have anything to answer for here? Time and again, we see a superstar reach the top of a route, clip and immediately jump off into space. It looks spectacular, which is no doubt why they do it. Of course, their belayer will be fully aware of what is about to happen.

In this case, the climber seems to have behaved in a similar fashion while his belayer apparently expected him to do something quite different. He could see the climber was at the top, so it wasn't the same as a normal clip while climbing. Clipping quickdraws and threading staples require very different actions from climber and belayer. From a belayer's point of view, these are completely opposite - in one case he should be taking in ready to lower, in the other he should be giving slack for the climber to thread. This happened because of a misunderstanding of which course of action was to be followed.

The discussion over the use of "safe" is interesting but irrelevant to this situation, because it was misheard. The fall occurred because the belayer was expecting to be asked for slack rather than to have to control a fall.

In reply to planetmarshall:

FORD PREFECT: We’re safe.
ARTHUR DENT: Oh good…
FORD PREFECT: We’re in a small galley cabin in one of the spaceships of the Vogon constructor fleet.
ARTHUR DENT: Ah. This is obviously some strange usage of the word “safe” that I wasn’t previously aware of.

(HitchHikers Guide to the Galaxy - Douglas Adams)

In reply to Howard J:


You're right; that's what originally struck me and I still think that the underlying problem was that having paid out slack the belayer then failed to react to the (to them) unexpected. I was probably a bit harsh, and we all have to accept that we can make mistakes, especially when inexperienced, but the fact remains that whole point of belaying is to stop people hitting the ground when something unexpected happens. The belayer has a responsibility to do the right thing whatever the leader says or does.

All the other stuff about using 'safe' (nobody at the chains of a sport route is 'safe') and never completely committing to weighting the rope before testing it whilst still attached to the belay, is valid too. It's a good example of how accidents are often caused by a concatenation of multiple factors; lapses in concentration, poor technique, miscommunication, a bit of out of character showing off, over-familiarity, not being familiar enough, Sod's Law. We never know how often we narrowly escape disaster without even noticing.

In reply to Dave Garnett:


I don't think that's fair. When I say safe I mean it, I'm responsible for my own security. If I subsequently fling myself off the top of a route without even checking I'm still on belay it's not my poor belayer's fault.

If I call safe I mean it, I'm on the chains, happy with how I'm attached and what I'm attached to. They can keep me on, pay me slack, tie me off or take me off completely to go find their shoes/drink, it's none of my business at that point, I'm safe and expecting nothing of them. I'll negotiate getting down when I'm ready. If I want someone to keep me on and safeguard my re-threading (and I frequently do) I'll not say I'm safe, I'll just ask for slack and usually add a reminder to 'just watch me' or 'keep me on' then I'll carefully shift my weight back onto the belay rope to test it before releasing my own temporary belay. It's me facing the fall from the top if I've made a faulty assumption so I double check everything including my trusted belayer before committing to the rope.

jk

In reply to Dave Garnett:



Anyone who is incapable of keeping themselves safe at the chains on a sport route should consider taking up a different sport.

In reply to rgold:


I understand this is common in the States (you have proper grown-up sport crags with multipitch descents etc) but it is extraordinarily rare in the UK. Given that abseiling is generally considered more dangerous than lowering, in the UK the latter is standard. We also rarely have routes long enough that running out of rope is an issue, and anything requiring more than the standard 60m rope is unusual and usually clearly marked in the guidebook (which is probably why so many UK people come unstuck when they hit the continent though)...

In reply to andrewmcleod:

Oh? 60m ropes are the standard now? When did that happen?

In reply to Dave Garnett:


In that sense the belayer clearly failed in his principle duty to keep the climber off the ground. On the other hand the climber seems to have contributed to a situation where this was likely to happen. Once this happened, if the belayer had been able to regain control of the rope he might well have suffered burns or other injuries in the process.

It is a reminder that roped climbing is a team sport and both members have a responsibility for each other's safety, and that when things go wrong it is often as a result of an accumulation of errors, perhaps by both climbers, rather than a single mistake by one of them.

In reply to csambrook:

Hi There,

Its not quite as straightforward tbh. She lead climbs everything indoors (I belay everything so its that or nothing). She is on the local bouldering team and has impressed the walls at penrith and Kendal etc for there to be no issue regarding her leading anywhere indoors. Indoors is fine even sport climbing on the Kendal walls with quickdraws.

Unfortunately her age counts against her when it comes to BMC courses. She is invited to the regional acadamies due to her YCS from 2014 but that doesn't cover outdoor roped climbing. There is a course being held atm and that is for teenagers. I emailed the guy organising it and he was absolutely correct this course wouldn't suit her as it was residential, however there is no way in hell I am waiting 5yrs to get her outside just because I don't have a climbing background.

I have googled and watched every instruction video going regarding setting things up, but I am a do it a few times supervised then off you go kind of learner. I have climbing friends but getting them pinned down is proving hard as they are all active doing other stuff.

Local wall wants £100 for 3hrs teaching so I have to get 10 people together to get that sorted etc etc etc.

For people who don't have a climbing history or present its very hard to get the youngsters the kind of education they should unless you throw lots of money at it

In reply to jkarran:

I'm sure you are extremely competent and always have excellent communications with your belayer but I see lots of trad leaders casually calling down safe when they are anything but.

Sport is a bit different and I take your point that once you have clipped the chains in principle the belayer is no longer responsible. However, quite a few people would still be alive (one personal friend in particular) if their belayer had not assumed that their leader was expecting nothing of them and would negotiate getting down when they were ready. Anyway, in this case, the belayer didn't even hear 'safe', they heard 'slack'...

In reply to gkrgeorge:

Makes a contentious post. 2 days and 130 replies later, he's yet to respond to anyone. hmm...

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Trouble is that "safe" is not an absolute. One persons safe is another persons watch me here. For example in many situations I will call safe when I only have one anchor clipped in the belay . I suspect most people wait until the belay is fully rigged.

In reply to GridNorth:


Eh? "Safe" is an instruction to your belayer that they need not belay you any more. Whether you are actually safe when you utter it is up to you!

In reply to Andrew Kinnersley:

Don't know where you're based Andrew, but MCofS run "real rock" sessions aimed specifically at getting kids (8ys to 17yrs) outdoor climbing. Might be worth a long weekend away with your daughter to attend one? I don't know how it works if your not an MCofS member, if they will do reciprocal deal for BMC members etc. Worth asking them though if your really struggling! I know one person who took their daughter along to them and really rated it.

Cheers,

Stuart

link here:

http://www.mcofs.org.uk/realrock.asp

In reply to GridNorth:

Sorry, I have to disagree. Safe is an absolute. You should only be using it when you no longer want or need the belayer to secure you. What people consider safe may vary, it might be as soon as you top out on a crag, it might be with a single anchor clipped, it might not be till you've got a full 3 point anchor attached to you, but the meaning stays the same for your belayer - "you can take me off belay".

Cheers!

Stuart

In reply to gkrgeorge:
Yes. I didn't word that very well did I? 😀

In reply to Coel Hellier:
I knew what I meant but expressed it badly. 😁

In reply to GridNorth:

Trouble is that "safe" is not an absolute. . For example in many situations I will call safe when I only have one anchor clipped in the belay . I suspect most people wait until the belay is fully rigged.

There. I think thats what you meant. I do the same or even with no belay if on a flat topped grit edge.

In reply to Rick Graham:
It is, though. When you call safe, you are stating to your belayer that they can take you off belay. Simple as that. What you have set up to protect yourself is of no concern to them, you're just saying you no longer require belaying - they will unclip their plate and possibly walk away.

If you don't mean that, say something else.

Neil

In reply to gkrgeorge:
Wow, i can't believe how much discussion there's been.
I would like to say that there are a few loose ends that you as the public don't know about and although i have taken on board some of what you guys have said i didn't ask for a lecture on climbing commands. I asked to hear from anyone who has had any similar injuries so that i could gauge how long it would be until i got full movement/strength back into my arm. Therefore, get back into climbing, work and other things that i like to do.
The whole point of this article was to make people aware, not to place blame. That's not for you lot to decide!
To clarify, my belayer intended to do the route top rope style. Meaning he told me he wanted to do it top rope before and during the climb. Whilst saying 'ok safe', i also said 'coming down' to my belayer. In regards to noise, there was no pollution from wind, other groups etc...
We both have a fair few years climbing experience and have climbed together several times.
Thanks to those who did get back to me with an answer from my original request but i don't really want to spend any more time reading through comments that are from people that belong to the 'blame culture'. I'd rather be outside and doing stuff, and as climbers, so should everyone else.
George

In reply to gkrgeorge:


Didn't you say this?

In reply to gkrgeorge:



Yup, we are now aware that either you are incompetent, your belayer is incompetent or acts of god occur. We made our decision as is our right in a free society.

In reply to jimtitt:

Harsh.

George is right, If he did make any mistakes he doesn't need everyone ramming it down his throat

In reply to ashtond6:


Well maybe, but he did word his OP very much as his belayer being at fault, whereas it might have been better as "between us we screwed up".

In reply to gkrgeorge:

My climbing partner( My daughter) takes in ALL the slack when lowering me off. I am left in no doubt that she has me safely supported (usually my voice goes up an octave due to the "reassuring" pressure of my harness.

We have a simple set of unambiguous hand signals that we use to back up vocal communication. So far this has served us well.

In reply to Coel Hellier:

Personally, I'd be pissed off with that belayer

"To clarify, my belayer intended to do the route top rope style. Meaning he told me he wanted to do it top rope before and during the climb."

Anyone else think this is alluding to the belayer intending him harm?!

If you didn't want input about every conceivable aspect of this event then the Internet was the wrong place to come buddy.

In reply to gkrgeorge:
First, I am glad you're ok.

Second, this is what's just happened:

"My belayer is terrible."
"Yes, they are. But you've got such bad climbing communication that if you climb with someone else, you're liable to get dropped again, and it would be your fault."

Whether you choose to take anything away from this or not is totally up to you, and isn't anyone else's problem, but it's a good thing the internet can act like this. There's probably a few silent non-posters who have had a shot across the bows too.

In reply to ashtond6:


That said, there is the following saying which seems pertinent: 'The wise man learns from someone else’s mistakes, the smart man learns from his own, and the stupid one never learns.'

In reply to gkrgeorge:




I suspect that if this were really the case then you should have just posted the first paragraph of the OP, but stripping out the first and last sentences. Including all the other information as you did would suggest that there was some sort of (subconscious?) intent to get comments regarding blame, to some degree or other.

In reply to gkrgeorge:



Bullshit. You're thread is titled 'Awareness of belaying error-serious injuries'. You spend around 3 paragraphs throwing blame onto your belayer on a public forum and you didn't want this to happen? It's just backfired that's all. You even play with the idea of him dropping you on purpose, quite an accusation to make.


He should have taken you off belay, what else does safe mean? You're lucky to be alive, next time you direct your belayer to do the wrong thing don't come on here slagging him off for it.

In reply to Andrew Kinnersley:


It's not really her age that counts against her, it's your lack of experience.

The reason the courses start at an older age is that there isn't a great deal to help with at age 8.

If you're going Trad climbing then someone (not the 8YO) has to either set up a top rope, or place bomber protection for the kid to lead up. This really has to be done by the adult as it's not common to put 8YOs in charge of their own life protection.

If you're going Sport, then again someone (not the 8YO) has to place a top rope (who's belaying for that) or the 8YO has to be taught to rethread lower offs (again who is comfortable teaching 8YOs to untie themselves from the rope at 20m height?). Either that or you have to find crags with lower offs that don't need rethreading (there are a few but not many). Or you end up leaving gear all over the place, which is expensive and/or a bit anti-social, depending on what you leave behind.

So in fact it is yourself that needs to skill up and do the courses, not the 8YO, or pay someone who has the skills, or find someone in a similar position who has the skills but no partner to help them.

That's why you won't find many courses for 8YOs outdoors, except as an 'experience'.

In reply to Andrew Kinnersley:

What about something like this? Open to kids aged 8 and above with an adult?

http://www.pyb.co.uk/courses-detail.php?coursecode=RCC36&irisref=687

In reply to rgold:


I think you have a point here, but it doesn't change the fact that the SAFE call was inappropriate.


Why open to question? As far as I can see it only means one thing - securely anchored (or on easy ground) and no longer reliant on a belayer. And (in the UK, at least) the call OFF BELAY is the reply - it's providing information, not giving an instruction. If different calls are used in other parts of the world, or the same terms are used the other way around, fair enough - we just need the correct definitions if we climb there with locals. But surely the calls always need a clear definition. The use of SAFE may have been "whimsical" in the case of the OP, but that's because he made a mistake, not because there's anything inherently ambiguous with the call.

In reply to gkrgeorge:


You didn't ask for the lecture, but you did make it clear that you need one! And in your long OP there was only one small line about hearing from people with injuries, and rehab time wasn't mentioned.


Again, who are you trying to convince here? You think we can't simply scroll up and check what you said? Your OP was mostly devoted to apportioning blame.


Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! However, I do wish you a speedy recovery.

In reply to slab_happy:

Thanks for the suggestion. Appreciated.

This. I so agree. I much prefer "Take in". However it is really irritating me how some people are suggesting it was the OP's fault somehow.

The responsibility for ensuring that the climber does not fall to the ground rests entirely with the belayer.

The belayer has control over the rope and the climber is completely at their mercy. So the belayer is really the one that needs to make sure they are doing the right thing, no matter what words are coming out of the climber's mouth. As a climber you could say "slack" but then lose your footing and fall off. Your belayer always needs to be ready to catch a fall, even if they are paying out rope or not expecting one. There is no debate to be had about that.

There are many situations in climbing where you may not be able to hear or see your partner. So all the people who are talking about eye contact and commands are being naive. Any experienced climber will have been in situations where they couldn't see or hear their partner. And any experienced climber will therefore know that as a belayer you need to be responsive, and if it seems like the rope is weighted and slipping you need to make damn sure you stop it.

I hope you feel better soon and you can forgive your friend for their mistake.

In reply to louise_london_climber:


Always? When the climber has said they are safe and on belay?

Climbing is a sequence, and responsibility for one's own safety and that of one's partner alternates. What is essential is that there is a clearly understood system for handing over that responsibility. Sport climbing is a little different, as usually that responsibility starts and ends when the climber is on the ground. However when threading the lower-off there is a period when the climber is supposed to be secure, and takes responsibility for their own safety while they come off the rope. During that period the function of the belayer is to make the rope available. Since the climber won't be tied in during this process the belayer is temporarily redundant, until the climber is back on the rope and ready to descend. Again, clear communication is essential.

It is very clear from the OP that the belayer was expecting the climber to thread the staples rather than clip into quickdraws. That can only be due to a failure to communicate the climber's intention. Whether that is because the climber didn't explain properly or the belayer misunderstood is immaterial - the responsibility was on them both to ensure that they both knew what to expect when the climber reached the top of the route, and what the belayer was then expected to do.

This does not absolve the belayer from responsibility for what happened. However the belayer's failure arose not because of laziness or inattentiveness, but because they misunderstood what was expected of them at that stage of the climb. As well as the initial communication failure, the climber also contributed by giving misleading calls and by jumping off without checking that his belayer was ready. The climber therefore shares some responsibility for what happened.

I am not interested in apportioning blame between these two individuals, that is for them to sort out between themselves. The reason this incident is worth discussing is because it illustrates the importance of communication and a clear understanding of what is expected from each party, and that safety is the responsibility of the team as a whole. The notion that the belayer is solely responsible at all times is misleading and possibly dangerous, even in the context of sport climbing.

In reply to gkrgeorge:

Despite all the in and outs and technicalities of this incident the thing I find the most worrying is the disagreement between climbers about what "safe" means and where responsibility lies. To some it means can I now be taken off belay to others it doesn't appear to signify much at all demonstrated by the fact that they continue to keep hold of the rope. I am one of the former and would immediately start preparing myself to climb, but can not see why anyone should need to let go of the rope completely when single pitch sports climbing unless there was some pressing need.

Al

In reply to GridNorth:

I agree, when single pitch sport climbing I can't see the need to take someone off belay or let go of the rope til they're back on the ground.

In reply to louise_travelling_climber:


...until the climber calls "safe", at which point (provided the belayer is sure that that is what was called) the climber has asked them to relinquish that responsibility to themselves.

If it was misheard as "slack" then that confirms your point, but it could have been worse if it *wasn't*.

Neil

In reply to LakesWinter:
Nor to call "safe". I suppose I might well answer "safe" with "wha?" and no change to what I was doing with the rope, though.

Neil

In reply to louise_travelling_climber:


But responsibility for the belayer rests solely with the climber because they are the one at risk. If your belayer isn't doing what you want then make them do it.

In this case it's 2 inexperienced climbers with the injured party sounding like the most experienced, so the best advice would be not to climb out of sight of your novice partner and be clear how you are directing them.

When the OP says "I got to the top of the route where i clipped both staples with quickdraws. My belayer had intended to do the route 'top rope' style so i left the gear in to prevent any unnecessary wear & tear on those staples. Correct me if i'm wrong but i believe this is common practice on sport climbs" it sounds like it's maybe the first time they've done it and quite possibly the first time the belayer had ever seen it done. It's quite possible the belayer thought a (misheard) shout of slack meant that the OP was now rethreading in some fashion and their attention wandered because they had previously only experienced someone sitting on a cowstail whilst rethreading.

Whilst it is clearly up to the belayer to control the rope, there are any number of factors that can contribute to an accident, new skinny rope, new belay device, miscommunication, whatever, so it's best to get everyone on the same page before doing anything that commits you to an action that can have serious consequences.

In reply to Howard J:


Depends how you do it... as long as you clove hitch/fig 8 your rope into the belay loop (not a gear loop!) when you pull up slack then you are still on belay continuously, and can be caught on whatever the last thing the rope is clipped into, even though you untie.

In reply to gkrgeorge:

"Ok safe. Coming down"

What you have there is a statement and a prediction.

As people have said above, the error was in saying that you were safe when in fact you were about to put yourself into the most unsafe position that you had been in since leaving the ground.

Personally, I always make it abundantly clear to anyone that I am about to lower that I have got the rope firmly under control, usually by taking in all of the slack and sitting down to take the strain fully. I hate it when I find myself obliged to take a slump of faith onto a loosely tensioned lower.

Anyway, if someone tells me that they're safe, I'll busy myself with sandwiches, coffee and the like and may or may not take the rope out of the plate, depending on the plan, and may tie a knot in the dead rope as a 'Justin'. As to what your belayer heard, or thought he heard, no doubt that vexed him sorely as he endeavoured to work out how it all went wrong. Thanks for letting him know it wasn't his fault.....

In reply to gkrgeorge:
Yeah, it's that statement that makes no sense whatsoever to me:

"I shouted 'ok safe, coming down' "

Whilst if I was belaying you, I wouldn't have let go, I would have shouted up "what the fudge are you on about?"

Safe means you are now in a position where you have decided you no longer need to be on belay. Eg. attached to a belay or well back from an edge.

Get well soon!

In reply to andrewmcleod:


Fair point, although this should be unnecessary if you have made yourself safe to the top bolts. I'd still prefer my belayer to keep control, mind, but that's because I'm fairly paranoid. I wouldn't lose sleep if they took the opportunity to, say, get a drink.

In reply to Howard J:


Unless my climber has specifically indicated they want to be taken off belay (to rap down or drop or rope loop to bring up more gear) I would never leave them not locked off on a sport climb. When they go to re-thread, give them 3m of slack and wrap a loop of rope round your brake hand or lock off your device - it takes two seconds and I can't think of a reason not to do it.

In reply to andrewmcleod:

This is how I do it. I am always attached to the rope when re-threading. Stops me:
A. losing the rope
B. hitting the floor the the staple I am attached to fails for some reason
C. losing the rope

For that same reason of B I would never expect the belayer to let go of the end of the rope without it being tied off.

Even trad climbing if I am not convinced the climber is safe, I will keep them on belay. Might mean paying out more rope but better safe than dead.

In reply to JoshOvki:
The way I was taught to do it was to clip the lower-off with a cow's tail or something, then while staying tied in pull up a loop of slack, feed that through whatever I'm threading, then tie an 8 on the bight with a bit of slack on the harness side and clip that to my belay loop. Then call take, and only once the rope has gone fully tight onto my new tie-in and I have double checked everything should I think about untying. Then double check everything *again* before unweighting and unclipping the cow's tail.

I have heard of lower-offs where a bight won't fit through, in which case you'd have to untie first, but I doubt these are the majority.

I wouldn't expect to be off-belay, and at no point would I call safe. If the lower-off was two separate rings, I would *certainly* want to remain on belay as I wouldn't want to be being protected by only one bolt while hanging on the cow's tail. Yes, you'd get a nice big fall if that bolt did fail, but you'd expect it to be held.

In reply to Howard J:

At Portland and I'm sure many other places the two top staples are not connected. To make yourself properly 'safe' you therefore need two cows tails or similar. I use a slowdraw with screwgates to clip the other bolt to my cowstail sling; if one bolt fails I will drop ~30cm onto the sling unpleasantly but will be unlikely to die. I used to use a quickdraw but I suspect the odds of the sling unclipping itself are quite high. Clipping both ends of a quickdraw to connect to two bolts won't work as they are U-staples...

How many people actually do this? (routinely connect themselves to two bolts). How many people have seen someone clip into one bolt and shout 'safe'?

In reply to Neil Williams:

Common on Portland (at least for fat ropes)? I teach people the untying method first because it works everywhere, and then they aren't stuffed if they hit a bolt that is too small

In reply to andrewmcleod:


I would never call "safe" on a single pitch sport route because I don't intend to be taken off belay (see above, passim). With regard to clipping in, I'm happy on one cow's tail if the bolts are big enough to get a bight through so I don't have to untie. If I have to untie to thread then I would probably want to double up.

In reply to AlanLittle:

I agree entirely! But some people seem to like going 'safe' completely unnecessarily, and worse - badly.

In reply to gkrgeorge:
You could shout 'banana' for all that it matters. As long you and partner know what that means, and what's going to happen.
Personally, I'll happily shout 'safe' to my regular partners when Ive clipped the top as they know our system and what I'm going to do and what's expected of them.
The only reason that would break down, and did in George's situation was that it wasn't clear what 'safe' meant.

Also, for those that are saying they would never consider themselves safe at the top, i think that might be a slight exaggeration. If I'm clipped with a cows tail to one bolt, a figure 8 on a bight in a crab to my harness to the other I am safe. Two independent staples. If you are seriously concerned that both are going to spontaneously fail for no good reason, then you have trust issues.

In reply to mark_wellin:



But you are also over complicating the situation. Just be kept on belay and save on the faff.

In reply to mark_wellin:

If I may re-enter the fray, the problem with "safe"---if there is a problem---is that it has a host of meanings from natural language, thus obliging climbers to invoke the Humpty Dumpty (or, if you wish, Banana) Rule:

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean---neither more nor less." (Through the Looking Glass, Chapter 6).

Doesn't it seem, way too late at this point but with 20-20 hindsight, that choosing terminology that does not already come laden with meanings might be a more effective approach to mitigating both misuse and misunderstandings?

In reply to mark_wellin:

If you shout "safe" when you are not safe and don't want to be treated as if you are safe then you are risking catastrophe - as the OP found out.

In reply to lowersharpnose:

I shout safe when I am safe. To people that know what that means. To imply that something is going to happen. Everyone involved knows what's going on.

Don't worry. I won't shout safe at you lot, ever.

In reply to rgold:



It's not exactly difficult to understand what safe means in this context. It's an abbreviation of "I'm safe" which is pretty unambiguos. Personally I routinely use" I'm safe" as it is hard to confuse with any of the other calls.

It's hard to think of a better alternative, the American system of off belay, belay off etc is a really messy accident just waiting to happen

In reply to mark_wellin:

If you're saying your safe when clipped into something reasonable I can't disagree with that. If you needed to be taken off belay for something. Definitions of reasonable vary but whatever you are happy with is fine.


Is this implying something different than what is ordinarily assumed as safe? I don't actually think you and lowersharpnose disagree.


Very sensible!

In reply to Coel Hellier:


Only just got to this thread - some of it is quite worrying. Absolutely agree with Coel here. "Between us we screwed up" is surely the right place to start from. Not George's "All this originated from some uber poor belaying", which, as written, strongly suggests that George believes the fault lies entirely with his belayer. It may not be the impression George intended to give, but he doesn't go out of his way to correct this impression in his second post.

Instead he criticises those who have responded to the thread as being part of a "blame culture". Not at all the case as I see it. The value of this post to the climbing community as a whole is that it's given us a chance to consider how we can avoid something like this happening to us, and most of the posts have, I suggest, contributed positively to this debate.

I hope George does read this and other peoples' further comments, as he, as well as the rest of us, can benefit from the opportunity to learn from what happened. I wasn't there, so I can't be sure, but I think it's very likely that both people involved made mistakes. Perhaps the greater responsibility rests with the person who was the most experienced. I would certainly never just blame my belayer if I was climbing with someone significantly less experienced, and since I've been climbing now for 50 years, that's normally the case these days.

I hope George recovers fully, and that both he and his belayer are able to continue enjoying climbing.

Martin

In reply to timjones:


I like some aspects of the US approach. The UK tendency to just acknowledge everything with a stream of OKs doesn't give quite the same ability to pick up on a wrong acknowledgement and stop the wrong action occurring. That's a principle used to good effect in aviation - you acknowledge by repeating the instruction back.

Neil

In reply to mark_wellin:


I've always understood 'safe' to mean something like at the top of a climb and somewhere safe enough to be taken off belay, which I learnt from my dad, who learnt it from the people he climbed with in the 60's, which seems to mirror what quite a few people on here take it to mean.

I'm not saying this to say that you're wrong, more to say that there could be a lot of potential for miscommunication.

Have safe climbing.

In reply to Neil Williams:


I only ever use OK in one situation, as a belayer after the climber has shouted "climbing" in order to give confirmation that I know that they are on the move.

Where else do you use it?

In reply to timjones:

It seems to come up a bit when lowering off, but I can't quite work out when without doing it! But I have heard climbers overusing it.

(I have heard "on you/on me" as a communication at the top but it isn't common)

Nonetheless it does miss the possibility of acknowledging in a more specific way.

Neil

In reply to Howard J:

Yes!! *exasperated face and eye roll* I can't reiterate it enough, it's so important: a belayer always needs to be ready to catch a fall, even if they are paying out rope or not expecting one. This responsibility only ends once you are ABSOLUTELY SURE it is safe to take the climber off belay. Don't do it otherwise. Simple as.
There are very few scenarios where it would be safe and appropriate to take someone off belay on a single pitch sport route, so if you heard someone apparently shout "safe" you should be immediately wondering if they actually are, if you heard them correctly, and what the appropriate response would be (it's highly unlikely that the correct response would involve taking them off belay, unless they are topping out which is pretty rare for a sport route, and you would probably know about it if it was possible to top out). You shouldn't just automatically take them off without even confirming with them.
Also, it is not 100% "safe" to be dangling off a bolt or even a couple of bolts/an anchor. They fail. It happens. I've had secondhand experience of this, the guy died. So why would a belayer assume that their climber is safe if they are at the top of a single pitch sport route and attached to the anchor? If I was the belayer I would never just blindly, unquestioningly accept that they are "safe".
In this case it doesn't sound like the belayer had even thought it through properly, and it certainly doesn't sound like they had made their own judgement call about whether or not the climber was actually "safe" and whether they should take them off belay.

ANYWAY as far as I can tell it sounds like the belayer didn't actually take them off belay, they just didn't hold the rope properly. So this debate is kind of irrelevant.

Obviously if a climber has said they are safe then normally this is because they are at the top of a trad route, and then the usual procedure is to take them off belay. I agree with you there. But you could mishear them. It's so easily done. I always keep people on belay unless I'm 100% they are safe. Either by confirming it with them verbally, or by looking up. It has happened many times that when I am belaying someone and they reach the top of a trad route and it's hard to hear them, I err on the side of caution and keep them on belay. Then usually I find that they are pulling the rope up, quite fast, and they must be safe after all. But because I wasn't sure, I didn't take them off. Then I usually shout up at them to stop and take them off, but only once I am totally sure it is OK to do so.

This is just plain wrong. If the anchor does fail and your belayer has locked off the rope while you are rethreading (and this is assuming you are rethreading correctly), then there is a good chance the other bolts and the rope will hold you. Your belayer is in no way redundant while you are rethreading. It's one of the reasons why you don't just untie and relay on hanging off an anchor on a sling while you sort out the ropes at the top.

I am also not interested in "apportioning blame" as you put it, but I think a lot of people in this thread are being insensitive to this poor guy who must be seriously suffering right now from life-changing injuries. Spare a thought for him here, have some compassion. Instead of comforting him and wishing him a speedy recovery a lot of people seem to feel the need to tell him that it was largely his fault (rather patronisingly and from the comfort of their chair/sofa/bed with the blessing of hindsight). He is basically being told off it seems. And the worst thing is, it really wasn't his fault. I have explained why. I don't think I can make it any clearer.

If someone walked out in front of a car on a pedestrian crossing and got badly injured, would your first response to that person be "hey idiot you shouldn't have walked in front of the car, it's your own fault this happened"....

In reply to louise_travelling_climber:

You sound like a bit of a fundamentalist about this.

I like it, you can hold my rope any time!

In reply to


Only after the person publically called out the driver on the internet?

Two guys made a mistake. Only one of them has posted on UKC denegrating the other.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Is it a long rope?

Sorry I couldn't help myself

In reply to gkrgeorge:

You called "safe".
Belayer stopped belaying. (Perfectly reasonably. IMO)
You let go.
You fell.

I don't understand how this is your belayer's fault at all.

I can see better communication helping, and personally always check if someone wants a lower or is rapping before I stop belaying attentively. And if they want a lower but need to thread, I'll stay on belay as a best practice measure which could save the climber from their own stupidity... but if the climber has called "safe" they shouldn't then expect any form of belay!

In reply to louise_travelling_climber:

I'd help, because making a mistake does not deserve a death sentence, but I certainly wouldn't hold back criticism once the immediate need for medical care was resolved. And I would expect to be called a muppet if I called "safe" when I wasn't, unless I had some sort of agreement with the belayer that that didn't mean what it normally does. Not that I'd do that, the word has a very clear meaning and I would never use it for anything other than that.

FWIW in my view the blame is shared. Climber called "safe" (wrong), but it seems like the belayer heard "slack" and offered that (not unreasonable in that case as slack is likely to be called for threading the lower-off) but having done so did not remain in control of the rope - which would make me wonder if they could catch a long lead fall had one occurred earlier in the climb, or if they were paying proper attention.

In reply to gkrgeorge:


Actually I missed that, there's an example of the "OK" response (or similar) being sub-optimal.

If the response to "safe" was always "off belay" (which is how I respond to it), there is a chance you would have screamed "no, take in" and stopped the whole error going further.

FWIW if being lowered off I will shout "take" and only fully weight the rope once it's gone completely tight. Another way to avoid that misunderstanding.

Neil

In reply to louise_travelling_climber:


He made some serious mistakes and basically has broken arm/hand as a fairly lucky result. Instead of reflecting on the experience and working through it with his partner to learn lessons he's taken the opportunity to ream him out on the internet then ignore a lot of very sensible comments from experienced posters.


No but if they were subsequently posting on the internet about it bitching and moaning about the driver I'd point out they probably should have looked and thought before stepping under a moving vehicle whatever state the green-man light was in.

jk

In reply to gkrgeorge:


That's total crap and you know it. The title of your thread puts the blame squarely on the shoulders of your belayer. Now you've been told that you made mistakes of your own and you don't like it.

Man the f*ck up, and don't post on a public forum and try to tell people what they can and can't decide.

I hope your recovery is swift.

In reply to planetmarshall:

Agreed; posting something on a public forum is an invitation to discussion. If you don't want discussion, don't post it.

Neil

In reply to louise_travelling_climber:

I don't disagree for a moment that you should keep the climber on belay until you are 100% sure they are safe. But if they clearly say "safe" then that should be sufficient assurance. If they're not in fact safe (frequently the case at the top of gritstone crags where people commonly call "safe" on topping out, before finding a belay) that's then their responsibility, not yours. If you're not sure you've heard correctly then yes, keep them on belay until they start to take in. Perhaps I should have said "when you've heard the climber say safe" but I thought that was implied.

I also agree that when sport climbing on a single pitch with a lower-off then the belayer should keep the climber on belay throughout. This belayer did not take the climber off, but he should have been better prepared for a fall and is clearly at fault for losing control of the rope. However it is understandable, although perhaps not forgiveable, that he was not ready if he was expecting the climber to thread the staples and therefore expected him to be tied in to them, and safe. It is not at all uncommon for both climbers to relax a bit at that point - this incident illustrates why that is poor practice.

The belayer in this instance failed badly, that is not disputed. However I remain convinced that this fall occurred because the two climbers had not clearly agreed between themselves what was going to happen at the top of the route, which resulted in the belayer misunderstanding what he was being asked to do. The climber, as the one who would, and did, suffer the consequences, should have made very sure before starting the climb that his partner understood this.

I don't think there has been a lack of sympathy with the climber for his injuries and of course we all wish him a speedy recovery. However his OP, and the thread title, emphasised the belaying error. I don't think it is unreasonable that this forum should discuss this and point out that there was more to it, and that both parties contributed to the situation where the belaying error could arise. If the OP disagrees, that is his prerogative. Perhaps others will learn from this.

As for your final point, of course that would not be my response. However even on a pedestrian crossing a pedestrian has some responsibility for himself and would be very unwise to step out in front of an oncoming vehicle without being confident it was going to stop. Having legal right of way is no protection against being run over. Neither would it be unreasonable or unfeeling to point this out to them, since it might help them to avoid doing it again.

In reply to gkrgeorge:

Glad you're (mostly) ok. That could have been much worse.
As others have said very clearly, your communications were very vague.

If someone shout's "safe" at me, I'd usually confirm it, and then take them off belay - though that's usually a trad scenario.
In sport, I can't really see a need to ever shout "safe".

In reply to TobyA:

Interesting thread. Saying 'safe' at the top of a sport climb is a weird thing to do, and theoretically could lead to confusion. But I've climbed the route where the accident occurred and it's about 10 metres high. If you were paying attention as a belayer (which of course is your role), you could actually see if the climber had clipped himself into the anchor bolts.

In this instance there's no way the belayer should have paid out a bunch of slack if they'd been watching as carefully as they should have been, and also, they should have been prepared to hold the fall in any event. You could catch someone at the penultimate bolt who was still tied in if the anchor failed, for example.

There is a lot of vitriol directed at the climber here, who made a contributory error, but that's a sideline to the real story, which is sloppy belaying. The video thread of Kalymnos the other week was another instance of the same.

There's often a lot of sneering against indoor walls and taking practice falls etc, but they provide good opportunities to practice good belaying habits, and catching unexpected falls.

In reply to TobyA:

Thanks for sharing your story and analysis Toby, much appreciated. Something (else!) to be aware of.

In reply to louise_travelling_climber:

I agree with the most of your post. If I think I hear someone I'm belaying shout 'safe' I'll need to be sure they are before taking them off. If they shout it at the top of a sport route (sometimes new partners or beginners do this when they mean either 'slack' to thread the belay, or 'take' to sit on the rope they've clipped in) I'll be sure to check what they really mean.
It can't just be right to treat belaying as a box ticking exercise and think that because a belayer hears 'safe' they are absolved of any responsibility.
I disagree on a couple of points though:


I don't think its fair to assume that. The OP says "Turns out that my belayer misheard me thinking that i shouted 'slack'"
That is one side of the story and considering the tone of the OP's post I wouldn't read much into it. It might be a third or forth hand account of what the belayer said, it might be an assumption on the OP's part. He also said that he shouted 'safe' so it must be equally likely the belayer just took him off without paying attention. The OP is probably not best placed to comment on the reasons for his partners mistake as he's understandably quite angry.

With regards to the lack of sympathy I think the OP would have got much kinder response if he hadn't tried to shame his belayer on an internet forum. They both made mistakes but the OP blames everything on belayer error. Again this is perhaps understandable given his injuries but his belayer must also feel pretty bad. The OP might learn more from this whole thing if he allows for the possibility that he also made a mistake.

Anyway I wish him a speedy recovery.

In reply to louise_travelling_climber:




If you check some of the Sport photos on UKC, I'll bet a lot of them are hanging off the lower off without a belayer, unless they've got a patient belayer, holding whilst they take shots.

But you seem to have completely misunderstood the risk here. If you are lowering off a Sport route and stripping it, then as soon as you are 25% of the way down you are at risk of a ground fall. At 33% there are equal amounts of rope above and below you but add in some slack and some stretch and you'll see it's possible to get hurt way before 33%. If you are stripping the draws then you are dependent on the lower off bolts all the way to the ground, plus you have the added factor of the belayer's weight acting on the bolts, which makes lowering off far more dangerous than sitting on the bolts at the lower off. I wonder what your bailout strategy is like if you're not trusting a double bolt lower off.


Rather than policing the thread for emotional responses it's better to try to help people identify and mitigate risk. At the Cuttings probably 80% or more of my conversations with climbers are along the lines of them saying "Do you find the grades a bit stiff here? I'm a solid 6a climber indoors but I can't get up these" because it attracts the inexperienced. In the OP an inexperienced climber has not ensured that his system is robust and then over-stressed an already weak system by dropping onto the belayer, it's nose-dive karma.

Indoor climbing may well be the best intro to Sport leading outdoors but the inexperienced still lack the experience to be able to tell what it is that they don't know. Telling them that they won't fall because the belayer will save them is not a step in the right direction.

In reply to winhill:


Surely it depends more on the distance between the bolts at the top and your proximity to the floor than on the percentage of rope out. Only the rope above the final bolt is added to your fall distance. If there is three meters between the last bolt and the belay and the belay fails you'll fall a maximum of six meters + rope stretch regardless of how far down the route you are (ok that's quite a lot and the rope stretch will increase with rope %out) and there shouldn't be any slack in the system if you are being lowered and 33% of the way down.

Also surely the force increase due to pulley effect is added as soon as you come off the sling and onto the rope so if the system is going to fail suddenly due to that its most likely to be when you're still at the top.

You're right lower offs shouldn't really be failing though and worrying about that routinely must lead to madness. I thought the main point of Louise_travelling_climber's post was about not taking people off belay without being sure they are really safe. Hard to argue with that.

In reply to GridNorth:

''safe means safe and I would take it to mean that if necessary I can take the person on the other end of the rope off the belay plate but on single pitch sport I cannot see any valid reason why you would want to do that. EVER. ''

What about the times that the leader wants to thread the bolts and ab off himself? Thus saving the bolts and rope from wear.

Which makes calling safe in OP's situation even more crazy.

In reply to louise_travelling_climber:


Yet it is somehow OK to come on here and criticise the belayer who isn't even present to put their side of the story?


No-one has used the word idiot as far as I can see.

If the pedestrian subsequently condemned the driver on a public forum I would hope that some people would step in and point out that they weren't entirely blameless.

In reply to louise_travelling_climber:
I like the slant of your posts, that mistakes and miscommunication happens, and it's the belayers' job to make sure the climber is safe through anything which might happen, whoever's fault it is. When you think of the gravity of somebody losing their life, it's hard not to agree.

In reply to Timmd:

Fair enough.

But here ....

The climber shouted "safe", chucked himself off without looking and then publicly blamed the belayer for not preventing a groundfall.

In reply to lowersharpnose:
I can't shake the feeling that if it was me I'd be wondering 'What, how can he be safe? He's at the top of a sports climb & coming down in a minute'

I think it's one of those things where both viewpoints are true, if you see what I mean, that they were probably both at fault.

In reply to Timmd:

Of course. And the OP has taken some flak for the somewhat accusatory tone of at the start of the thread but lets also remember that he wrote that whilst in a state of shock so maybe he didn't entirely say what he meant and mean what he said. I would say we should all cut him some slack, but I reckon he's had plenty of that to be going on with.

In reply to deepsoup:

Ho ho, & good point about the shock.

In reply to deepsoup:

What do you mean, shock?

He started this thread two weeks after the fall.

In reply to lowersharpnose:
A sense of emotional turmoil can last for a good while after a serious accident like that. He'd possibly still be getting his head around things still two weeks on. It could take a lot of processing.

In reply to JHiley:



No, the risk is much higher when you are stripping the route, you are quite quickly relying on exactly the same lower-off to keep you off the ground but with the addition of twice as much downward force on it! If the lower-off isn't safe to sit on statically it won't magically become safe once you start descending and stripping the route. If it's a steep or meandering route you can add the swing as well.

In reply to winhill:

So the times it is most likely (but still extremely unlikely) to fail would be (a) when the climber first clips into it, and (b) when they start being lowered i.e. exactly what JHilley said?

Then again if a 2 bolt lower off was that bad I'd be somewhat concerned about the state of the other bolts!

In reply to Mike Hewitt:


Yes, that seems a valid reason for calling safe.

In reply to winhill:


If this is a concern you can put a prisik on the rope going to the belayer and connect to your harness. There may be a bit of rope damage if there's a fall due to the top anchor failing but it'll probably stop you hitting the ground.

If the top bolts look OK and they've held my weight for a couple of minutes while rethreading (with belayer backup) without any obvious stress I'd be happy to trust them though.

In reply to Dandan:



Even if they say they are safe and you think they are abseiling?

In reply to lowersharpnose:






Perhaps it was lucky the belayer didn't take him off completely as he would have thought he was 'safe'

In reply to Lord_ash2000:



Perhaps you should read more of the thread (then you wouldn't have 5 dislikes). It isn't as clear as you think.

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

Just scrolled up and yes, for some reason 5 people dislike it (although 5 people like it too).

I don't know why, I addressed both issues. The climber made a poor choice of calls using the word "safe" when he wasn't but ultimately the belayer is responsible for protecting his climber and he didn't bother looking up to see if that was the case before he paid out slack and then was unable to arrest the resulting fall. If the climber was clearly out of sight of the belayer then fair enough it's more the climbers fault but in this case it's just general incompetence all round.

In reply to Lord_ash2000:

ultimately the belayer is responsible for protecting his climber

The major point that has come up in the rest of the thread, which I tend to agree with, is that the belayer is not responsible for protecting the climber after the climber has called "safe". In my book if you call "safe" then sit back on the rope expecting to be held then it's your own fault if you end up hitting the deck.

In reply to timmeh81:

It's a tricky one, there is a balance of responsibility between the climber and belayer for the safety of the climber. This fluctuates depending on the situation. In most situations, the belayer's job is to arrest any fall the climber makes and do so in a way that minimizes the risk of harm to the climber. There are also instances where the belayer might need to instruct the climber, for example if the rope has got stuck behind a flake and he needs to the climber to whip it out in order to maintain safety. The belayer needs to keep an eye on his climber and adapt according to the situation.

Now, in this situation, yes the climbers calls were not ideal and could have been misinterpreted/ miss heard by the belayer, that was the climbers mistake. However, given that this took place at the cuttings, which is a short single pitch bolted venue where you can easily see what your climber is doing, the belayer should have at least been aware of what the climber had done / not done (ie clipping in) before just blindly paying out the rope, and it was this final action which lead to the fall.

It was a sequence of errors by both parties but the belayers final one is what made the difference between "What you mean you're safe or you want lowering off?" and just basically dropping the guy.

In reply to Lord_ash2000:

The climber made a mistake and was dropped.

Best practice by the belayer would have prevented the climber's mistake from leading to injury.

Can we move on now... :P

In reply to RockSteady:



Exactly my point. I think everyone agree's the climber should have made sure the belayer had him before letting go regardless of how poor his calls were. But like I said, and this confirms, if the belay was paying even a bit of attention to his climber he should have seen the error before just blindly paying out rope.

In reply to Lord_ash2000:

Everyone veers from best practice from time to time, whether intentionally for expediency, or through a mistake.

Creating a thread like this to publicly slam your belayer under the guise of seeking advice about the injury smacks of a lack of self-awareness and personal responsibility.

In reply to gkrgeorge:

Firstly I hope the climber & belayer both recover fully, and learn from this.

Secondly, I'm glad I've read this discussion. I and the guys I climb with quite regularly say 'safe' once we've clipped (both) anchors and attached with sling(s). This might be partly due to feeling 'safer' as e.g. we've got past a scary crux move, but I reckon being attached to 2 anchors is pretty safe, more so than the risks of driving home.

However, once we've rethreaded the rope we always shout down 'have you got me?' or similar before weighting the rope again. In fact, especially at Portland, we might shout down (if not already prearranged) to see what the next climber wants to do i.e. whether to strip the route, leave the draws in, etc. It is hard though sometimes for the belayer to see what the climber is doing at the top, as his body is often in the way of the anchors.

What I take from this discussion is that I'll be more careful with the use of the word 'safe' and reserve it for trad climbing where I expect my belayer to then take me off belay.

In reply to dereke12000:

If both you and your partners understand how "safe" is being used in this context then it might not be a problem. However if you find yourself climbing with other people it might be misunderstood. There is also the possibility that a partner might automatically respond to "safe" as if they were trad climbing and take you off belay. In theory we should be 100% attentive the whole time, but the human brain doesn't work like that and may react to trained responses even where it's not appropriate. So you're probably best to avoid using it.

On another thread I've argued for a standard set of calls for sport climbing, just as there are for trad.

In reply to Howard J:

I'm not clear on what the problem with the trad ones is (other than possibly the use of OK, but that applies equally to trad). Just don't use "safe" unless you are requesting being taken off belay in order to abseil. And a call of "slack" means (same as trad) "give me slack but be ready to take it back in and catch me if I fall if at all possible".

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:

The trad calls are to safely hand over responsibility for belaying between climber and second when they are at opposite ends of the pitch. With sport climbing, the issue is safely managing the transition between climbing and lowering off. The climber isn't safe until he's back on the ground. In principle it should be simple, keep the climber on belay at all times, but in practice people seem to find ways to mess up with serious and sometimes fatal results, so an effective and unambiguous system of communication seems to me to be desirable .

"Safe" is an essential part of the trad calls but is paradoxically unsafe for sport. If you have a different set of calls for sport you are less likely to mix them up and use them inappropriately.

In reply to Howard J:

I don't really agree. To me the ONLY call that means "don't bother paying attention any more" is "safe", and there is no reason to call it unless you *are* safe. A lot of trad climbers call it by default as soon as they top out, and they arguably shouldn't; they are not "safe" until they have constructed the belay. It might be that that makes them call it on a sport route, perhaps? But how would you prevent a second set of calls getting confused with the first? I think there's more potential for confusion there.

It might be that a campaign for "never call safe on sport, nor respond to it by taking off belay" would make sense, but I'd leave it there.


Hmm. I think with two sets of calls to remember there is more likely to be confusion, e.g. mixing them up.

It's easy to remember - only "safe" means "take me off belay". With any other call, the belayer should continue to expect to have to hold a fall at any second - even if it looks like there might be too much rope out to manage it, they should still try if at all possible e.g. running backwards if feasible. And you should not call "safe" unless you are certain you wish your belayer to unclip and walk away when performing any kind of climbing. You should never call it by default, trad or sport, you should always consider your situation, double check what you're attached to if relevant, and *then* call it.

That is the problem, not a problem with the calls themselves.

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:

For this reason I only say 'safe' on trad when I've constructed my belay. If I want to be taken off after I've topped out because I'm happy, or I've a long walk to the anchors or something, I'll say 'OK, I'm fine, take me off', rather than 'safe'. Just helps keep that distinction in my mind, and hopefully that of the belayer.

In reply to gkrgeorge:

Last month at Stoney my belayer took me off the plate when I said I was going to lower off.It is the leader's job to check the belayer has them safe.Hold onto the rope with both hands until you are CERTAIN the belayer has you.Never mind being polite,check and double check verbally that the belayer is going to hold you.Keep hold of the effin' rope!
I was watching a guy who has lead E4 belaying his son last night,climbed for 30 years, he put his belaying hand above the plate several times while adjusting the rope,which meant he couldn't have held the fall.This is a very common error,and can be fatal. Mitch

In reply to paul mitchell:
Interestingly a local Scout climbing club uses "on you"/"on me" at the top before lowering off. The climber doesn't weight the rope until he gets the "on me" back.

I tend to use "take" but won't weight the rope until I feel it going tight, and if it doesn't go tight I call "take" again until it does.

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:

The problem with that is that they are learning a non-standard (in the UK) set of climbing calls and should be discouraged (IMHO)

Steve

In reply to SteveD:

Fair point, those wouldn't be recognised if climbing with someone else. Though would probably just bring on a "wha?"

(If you get an unfamiliar call as a belayer, best find out what it is before acting on it!)

Neil

In reply to paul mitchell:

He was probably thinking about those pegs at Millstone.

In reply to Howard J:



I don't agree with the above as if you are climbing multi pitch sport then it would be normal to call safe at the top of each pitch as you would with trad.
I don't want to comment to much on the OP but a normal call would be 'take' when you are ready to descend. Keep it short and simple.
Hope both involved can recover and keep climbing.

In reply to Scott K:

And don't just sit back as soon as you've called it. At best, your belayer won't like you as you may sit back just as they take in and they have to react to that. At worst, they might fumble and you end up dropped, or they've misunderstood like in this case and you end up with a load of slack and an unintentional "lead fall". Only sit back when the rope has gone fully tight (though I accept rope drag can sometimes make this a bit hard), and if it hasn't assume there's been a problem and call take again.

Care on both sides prevents accidents; most accidents require a chain of issues before they occur.

Neil

In reply to Howard J:


Actually, even that isn't really true. I must have climbed for 20 years before I heard anyone use 'safe' as a call. The system I was taught (and still usually use) is to wait until I am fully attached to the belay and then say 'taking in'.

Even in the situation where you are at the top and need to walk back to find a belay, standard practice was to ask for 'slack' and explain you would be needing lots of it, but this wasn't 'safe'. Anyone who has had to search for a belay on steep grass at the top of the crag at Gogarth or on the Culm coast will immediately understand the difference!

I do now occasionally use 'safe', meaning I'm not really safe but I'm going to be faffing about for a while and I'll be needing some slack and I fairly sure I'm not going to fall off but only where it's clear what's going on - it's a bad habit though. I wouldn't be using it at all on a big crag where communications were difficult.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

I don't doubt what you say, but the conventional set of UK climbing calls now in use, as contained in most instructional material, uses "safe". If my memory serves this was pretty much the system I was taught when I began climbing in the 1970s. I don't think "Off belay" came in until the advent of Sticht plates and the need to allow the second time to remove the rope, whereas with a body belay you could just let go of it. Of course not everyone uses these calls and there are other systems.

It's not just steep grass top-outs - I've seen people at Stanage stumble and nearly fall over the edge after calling "safe" before they'd set up a belay. Only use it when yuo mean it, imo.

In reply to Howard J:


I started in 1975 and if it wasn't in Blackshaw...

In fact, Blackshaw suggests using 'I'm there' to alert the second that the leader has reached the next belay. At this point the second may be permitted to remove his gloves. And perhaps loosen his tie in preparation for the exertions to come.

In reply to Dave Garnett:


Heaven forefend!! That may be acceptable to the lower classes but would get a letter of rebuke and a stiff fine in MY club.

In reply to Scott K:


Yes, but that is a very different scenario from what is under discussion. On the other thread I pointed out at least four possibilities for the top of a pitch on a sports climb:

1) clip and lower off
2) thread and lower off
3) abseil
4) bring up second and continue

They all require slightly different procedures. With the first two the climber should remain on belay throughout, but not with the others. It is essential that both climbers understand what is going on and what is expected of them. People have died when that has been lacking.

In reply to louise_travelling_climber:


Er no.Because a pedestrian has ABSOLUTE right of way on a pedestrian crossing.

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:


Legally, perhaps. That's no guarantee of immortality.

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

It is never sensible to assert your right of way when everything is telling you that to do so will cause you to be killed or injured. When behind the wheel that's called "defensive driving", I guess there's also "defensive pedestrianism"

Neil

In reply to Dave Garnett:

It's like a pedestrian only looking one way when crossing a one way street - it amazes me how many people I see doing this...

In reply to dereke12000:

Particularly in car parks where you near enough always see someone going the wrong way...

(I'm surprised the parking enforcement companies have not put up cameras against this yet, they might find it a very popular measure, as I get thoroughly sick of lazy people who can't be bothered to follow the arrows).

Neil

In reply to dereke12000:


Does anyone actually do this? Weird!

In reply to Howard J:



Even option 1) has 2 possibilities:
1a) clip and lower off leaving all the draws in for someone else to red point
1b) clip and lower off stripping all the draws for someone to lead (and saving a bit of time by only the last climber threading the anchors)

This decision often forms part of our communication between climber and belayer, so we're both sure what's happening.

In reply to dereke12000:

Definitely worth a discussion first if you can see the lower-offs.

Neil

In reply to john arran:

yes, because a lot of the climbs at Portland were bolted by giants, so if you only have to reach the bottom of the draw with the rope, rather than reaching higher up to clip the draw into the bolt itself, then they are much easier...

In reply to dereke12000:


All the more reason for leaving them in if you ask me ... if a bolt is placed too high then start with it extended. Same grade for everyone then.
Each to their own though; if you like risking long falls simply because some twunt didn't put enough thought into the bolting then feel free.

In reply to Dave Garnett:


True but if I was driving I would accept my responsibility rather than call the pedestrian an idiot which is the relevance to this whole thread.

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

Well the way I was using that analogy was different and I think you have misunderstood it, or at least you have changed the original implications of it.

I was implying that the belayer was the driver (not the climber) and that the climber was the pedestrian. Because the driver is ultimately the one here who is responsible and caused the accident, but then the pedestrian also made a mistake which lead to the accident.

If you are in a car, you can kill someone if you are not driving carefully and looking out for danger. If you are a pedestrian you can also get killed, even if you are walking along somewhere you think is safe, if you do not look out for danger and take some responsibility for yourself. But drivers have a lot of control and a lot of responsibility (as do belayers) and so they should really be incredibly careful not to hit anyone. You know the whole "you must be able to stop within the visible distance" rule. Being able to catch a fall while belaying is similar in my opinion. The responsibility of the belayer should not be disregarded, someone's life is in your hands.

But ultimately I was using that pedestrian/driver analogy to demonstrate that we should be sensitive in the way we assess the situation and the way we address the climber (and the belayer). I am not here to police the thread. I just think the way that some people are handing out advice here is a bit coldhearted, and if you actually saw this guy lying in a hospital bed in front of you, feeling terrible because he may never climb again, you might not be telling him so harshly that it is all his fault. Yes OK it's not ideal of him to have publicly reprimanded his belayer, but I think the point behind him starting the thread was more to warn people so that the same thing doesn't happen to someone else. I think the intention was good. To remind people to pay proper attention while belaying. I have been dropped before by people - I understand the anger or frustration he may be feeling.

I still stand by my original (and rather valid I think you will agree) point that as a belayer it is easy to mishear a command/call. So you should never stop belaying someone if you aren't sure they are safe, and you should always assess a situation yourself and think through your actions, instead of following a command without thinking about what you are doing (like some kind of mindless robot).

Climbing safely is all about making good judgement calls. I would hate to climb with someone who took me off belay or let go of the rope at the drop of a hat. You need to think about what you are doing the whole time.

In reply to louise_travelling_climber:

I agree with nearly all that you say. I do disagree that we've been telling the climber that it's all his fault - I don't think that's the case at all. However by focussing only on the belayer's failure to hold the fall (where he undoubtedly f*cked up big-time) you are ignoring the circumstances which led to the climber being in an uncontrolled fall in the first place. There is a strong case that this was because of a failure to communicate what the climber intended to do, resulting in a misunderstanding by the belayer. Communication is a two-way thing, and the climber contributed to the communication failure which allowed that to happen - to what extend only he and his belayer know.

By concentrating on the need for the belayer to be attentive at all times and be ready to hold the fall (all undoubtedly true) you are overlooking the arguably more important lesson that better preparation and communication could have prevented the fall in the first place. That is the key thing to take away from this discussion, and I think it is clear from the comments that many people have. I hope the OP is one of them.

In reply to Howard J:

A very sensible and balanced view. Both parties have a responsibility to avoid accident by double-checking, communicating and adding feedbacks into the system.

We do "climb when ready", "climbing", "OK" - even given the use of OK rather than the more specific US-style "climb on" this is a useful bit of double-feedback that gives the belayer the chance to shout "no, not you!" or something and stop a misunderstanding causing an accident (using names also helps here). So why not at the top? As I said above, unless it was a genuine fall I would never deliberately plonk myself down onto anything other than a completely tight rope. If nothing else it's an unnecessary shock load on equipment, but it could also save your life if it turns out the belayer has taken you off due to a misunderstanding.

Neil

I've recently got back into climbing after a long time out and my current climbing partner has only just started. After trad leading him up a route and setting the anchor I proceeded to belay him up behind me. I did have a little chuckle to myself thinking about this thread when he shouted up to me to 'take' the 'slack' Luckily I had eyes on and could see he just wanted the comfort of a tighter rope. Needless to say we'll be going over some climbing calls before our next climb.

In summary of this accident I draw the following conclusions:

The climber gave unclear instructions to the belayed - climber at fault
The climber weighted the rope without checking the belayer 'had' him - climber at fault
The belayer apparently failed to maintain concentration on what the climber was doing - belayer at fault
The belayer failed to arrest a fall/maintain control of the rope - belayer at fault
Both parties failed to maintain an adequate level of communication - both parties at fault

I'd apportion the blame 50/50

In reply to radddogg:

Sounds a reasonable sum-up of the situation.

In reply to radddogg:

I'd suggest






Most important part though is luck, this time, 100% for both; hope they both recover, keep climbing, that they learn from their experience and so do the rest of us.

We're not here long enough to learn from our own mistakes we need to learn to learn from other people's.

In reply to Hyphin:

I think we need a meta-analysis of all the summaries posted so far to arrive at a definitive recommendation.

In reply to gkrgeorge:
Everything has been said already, but I think this simple method is overlooked

1- at the beginning of the lower off, keep the other side of the rope (the one going up) tight with your hands: if something goes wrong your are sustaining yourself with an advantageus pulley system at the belay. Even if your not strong you are likely to resist enough time for you belayer to take you on belay properly.
2 - After saving my arse once as explained above, I switched to a gri-gri for sport routes. Self locking devices are best in a crag situation plenty of distractions.

In reply to odari:

Remember a Gri-gri isn't guaranteed to lock up - it's a bit like a seat belt - don't turn a backup into complacency. Better that the belayer takes their job seriously and pays attention whatever they happen to be using.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Would be an interesting exercise. Would you suggest a multivariate analysis of the hundreds of attempts at analysis already offered. ( Would suggest each post is an attempt at analysis, only the OP account is a summary)
Should each attempt be weighted equally in search for some grouping of agreement around possible contributing factors. Or should each attempted analysis be screened and weighted on the extent to which the contributor appears to have some understanding of the general principals involved, and has read the OP so has some (one sided) insight into the specific circumstances.

Or do we go for


Don't say "safe" unless you are 100% sure you are, and you are prepared to take 100% responsibility for your own safety.

Don't commit your weight to a rope until you're 100% sure that the other end of it is secured.

Don't let go of a rope unless you're 100% sure the person on the other end has a clear understanding of both above points.


Generally, don't underestimate gravity. I'd suggest sensible assumption is that if the rope's not under you're control at the start of a fall, it still won't be at the end of the fall.

In reply to Hyphin:
Generally, don't underestimate gravity. I'd suggest sensible assumption is that if the rope's not under you're control at the start of a fall, it still won't be at the end of the fall.

This is an interesting point - how easy is it to regain control of a rope during a lower once a certain amount of slack has gone through? Does this vary with different devices? Not something one can really experiment with unless using a drop bag

In reply to thepeaks:

What I've done with kids is:-

have them hold brake rope correctly, I take the live end a few inches before it goes into the device and pull sharply; they never fail to keep control.

Then repeat, but with them starting with hands off the brake rope, they never manage to catch the brake rope before I've pulled through as much as my arm extension/half turn away from them can take. The brake rope does not flow in a nice straight line it kicks and snakes about.

Clearly any of the assisted breaking devices would help in this situation, but worth pointing out to them that if the weight of a big fall hits you when you're not paying attention you are far more likely to be pulled off your feet and face first into the wall.