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Nice one France!
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/stop-greedy-companies-making-product...
On the off chance it'll make any difference, there's a petition started to have the same thing in the UK.
Spare a few moments of your precious UKC surfing time to sign it peeps.
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/stop-greedy-companies-making-product...
On the off chance it'll make any difference, there's a petition started to have the same thing in the UK.
Spare a few moments of your precious UKC surfing time to sign it peeps.
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In reply to Timmd:
Definitely like the idea, especially if it help people claim warranties on things that are past the 1 year warranty but can be reasonably expected to last longer.
Definitely like the idea, especially if it help people claim warranties on things that are past the 1 year warranty but can be reasonably expected to last longer.
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In reply to Timmd:
The Sale of Goods Act already gives pretty good protection for what is a 'reasonable' lifespan. And I'd say one year is unreasonable for most electronic items.
Hoovers, kettles, mowers, etc, are very much usage-dependent; should a warranty apply to someone who uses a hooverd for a cleaning business, or who has OCD issues...?
The Sale of Goods Act already gives pretty good protection for what is a 'reasonable' lifespan. And I'd say one year is unreasonable for most electronic items.
Hoovers, kettles, mowers, etc, are very much usage-dependent; should a warranty apply to someone who uses a hooverd for a cleaning business, or who has OCD issues...?
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In reply to captain paranoia:
I'd imagine a guesstimate could be found for a lot of products, for their average lifespan, and business use might be excluded?
OCD people might end up unlucky in being suspected of using them for business use (or they might not depending on the company)?
I guess France managed to navigate their way through such questions.
I'd imagine a guesstimate could be found for a lot of products, for their average lifespan, and business use might be excluded?
OCD people might end up unlucky in being suspected of using them for business use (or they might not depending on the company)?
I guess France managed to navigate their way through such questions.
Post edited at 16:59
In reply to Timmd:
Utter BS. Products break because they are cheap. Products are cheap because that's what the market wants. The environment or my wallet? Yup my wallet.
Instead of doing something completely useless like voting in the above petition do sonething practical the next time you buy a washing machine skip the £150 Beko and go for the £1599 Miele instead or buy the fully repairable £130 Dualit kettle.
What should happen is that all those tight wads that buy crappy cheap and nasty brands like Beko et. al. should be forced to pay a disposal Tax so when it breaks down and is uneconomical to repair there's a Tax of say £400 to take it away to the local recycling site. Anyone found dumping them without paying the Tax should be fined at least £1000 with prison time.
There needs to be consequences for people who choose to buy cheap crappy products at the expense of the environment.
Utter BS. Products break because they are cheap. Products are cheap because that's what the market wants. The environment or my wallet? Yup my wallet.
Instead of doing something completely useless like voting in the above petition do sonething practical the next time you buy a washing machine skip the £150 Beko and go for the £1599 Miele instead or buy the fully repairable £130 Dualit kettle.
What should happen is that all those tight wads that buy crappy cheap and nasty brands like Beko et. al. should be forced to pay a disposal Tax so when it breaks down and is uneconomical to repair there's a Tax of say £400 to take it away to the local recycling site. Anyone found dumping them without paying the Tax should be fined at least £1000 with prison time.
There needs to be consequences for people who choose to buy cheap crappy products at the expense of the environment.
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In reply to Indy:
Do I get a 'disposal tax' rebate for my old English Electric EE100 washing machine, bought second-hand 13 years ago, and repaired by me, twice, by buying spare parts (that would otherwise eventually go to land fill)...? Admittedly, the bits I took out that I couldn't recycle (thanks, local council) probably went to land fill...
Or for buying second-hand electronic goods in charity shops...?
Do I get a 'disposal tax' rebate for my old English Electric EE100 washing machine, bought second-hand 13 years ago, and repaired by me, twice, by buying spare parts (that would otherwise eventually go to land fill)...? Admittedly, the bits I took out that I couldn't recycle (thanks, local council) probably went to land fill...
Or for buying second-hand electronic goods in charity shops...?
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In reply to Indy:
How about fines for companies that sell their products at ridiculous markups, thus creating a market for companies sell cheaply-built stuff at reasonable prices?
The most common fault in electronic items? The humble electrolytic capacitor. There should be fines for using the cheapest, shittiest capacitor, especially when using it at the limit of its working rating. Every piece of electronic equipment I've repaired has been due to the failure of a capacitor somewhere. Well, those bits of electronics I have managed to repair, that is, so there may be some reinforcement bias going on...
How about fines for companies that sell their products at ridiculous markups, thus creating a market for companies sell cheaply-built stuff at reasonable prices?
The most common fault in electronic items? The humble electrolytic capacitor. There should be fines for using the cheapest, shittiest capacitor, especially when using it at the limit of its working rating. Every piece of electronic equipment I've repaired has been due to the failure of a capacitor somewhere. Well, those bits of electronics I have managed to repair, that is, so there may be some reinforcement bias going on...
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In reply to captain paranoia:
Thats a cop out.
A Miele washing machine for instance is desgned in Germany by German workers. Its built in Germany by workers paid a German wage under environmental laws to German Standards.
Now lets look at the cheapy Chinese rubbish that cost 1/4 the price. Do you think the workers are paid a 1/4 the hourly rate of the German workers? nope its more like a 20th. Are Chinese companies having to factor in environmental costs..... nope they can just pump there highly toxic waste straight into the local river course. What about the environmental cost of getting that washing machine from China to the UK? If it breaks 2 days out of warranty so what I'll dump it and get another cheapy
Maybe Miele's price is the most honest.
Doing a quick Google shows that the average cost of a washing machine in 1965 was £45 or nearly £800 at todays prices. For those now paying for a cheapo £150 WM it would have been £9 in '65. And THAT sums up why stuff doesn't last any more.
> How about fines for companies that sell their products at ridiculous markups, thus creating a market for companies sell cheaply-built stuff at reasonable prices?
Thats a cop out.
A Miele washing machine for instance is desgned in Germany by German workers. Its built in Germany by workers paid a German wage under environmental laws to German Standards.
Now lets look at the cheapy Chinese rubbish that cost 1/4 the price. Do you think the workers are paid a 1/4 the hourly rate of the German workers? nope its more like a 20th. Are Chinese companies having to factor in environmental costs..... nope they can just pump there highly toxic waste straight into the local river course. What about the environmental cost of getting that washing machine from China to the UK? If it breaks 2 days out of warranty so what I'll dump it and get another cheapy
Maybe Miele's price is the most honest.
Doing a quick Google shows that the average cost of a washing machine in 1965 was £45 or nearly £800 at todays prices. For those now paying for a cheapo £150 WM it would have been £9 in '65. And THAT sums up why stuff doesn't last any more.
Post edited at 18:29
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In reply to Timmd:
Totally agree. I was amazed when to find out when our last Bosch washing machine bearings failed, that nearly all washing machines are disposable when this happens. In addition, the bearings are crap compared to how they used to be. It's a massive con and a huge waste of natural resources. It's the sort of thing the EU should be sorting out.
Totally agree. I was amazed when to find out when our last Bosch washing machine bearings failed, that nearly all washing machines are disposable when this happens. In addition, the bearings are crap compared to how they used to be. It's a massive con and a huge waste of natural resources. It's the sort of thing the EU should be sorting out.
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In reply to Yanis Nayu:
My parents old washing machine lasted from the mid eighties to around five years ago.
It is a massive waste of resources if modern washing machines don't last for as long.
My parents old washing machine lasted from the mid eighties to around five years ago.
It is a massive waste of resources if modern washing machines don't last for as long.
Post edited at 18:56
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In reply to Indy:
What if you can't afford expensive items? Another tax on the poor?
Utter bullshit was your post.
> Utter BS. Products break because they are cheap. Products are cheap because that's what the market wants. The environment or my wallet? Yup my wallet.
> Instead of doing something completely useless like voting in the above petition do sonething practical the next time you buy a washing machine skip the £150 Beko and go for the £1599 Miele instead or buy the fully repairable £130 Dualit kettle.
> What should happen is that all those tight wads that buy crappy cheap and nasty brands like Beko et. al. should be forced to pay a disposal Tax so when it breaks down and is uneconomical to repair there's a Tax of say £400 to take it away to the local recycling site. Anyone found dumping them without paying the Tax should be fined at least £1000 with prison time.
> There needs to be consequences for people who choose to buy cheap crappy products at the expense of the environment.
What if you can't afford expensive items? Another tax on the poor?
Utter bullshit was your post.
Post edited at 19:16
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In reply to captain paranoia:
The most common fault in electronic items? The humble electrolytic capacitor. There should be fines for using the cheapest, shittiest capacitor, especially when using it at the limit of its working rating.
That's down to the fact that there could be thousands of electronic components in a modern device and it only takes one to fail and the whole device fails as well. That's why Motorola introduced 'Six Sigma'. They recognised the fact that using the Probability Multiplication Rule, the more components fitted, then the chance of a failure exponentially increased. Their solution was to increase the reliability of each individual component to 3.4 defects/million.
So, if you buy a device with components manufactured to six sigma, you should be OK. Buy a cheap device with cheap components and you essentially take your chances...
In essence, you get what you pay for.
The most common fault in electronic items? The humble electrolytic capacitor. There should be fines for using the cheapest, shittiest capacitor, especially when using it at the limit of its working rating.
That's down to the fact that there could be thousands of electronic components in a modern device and it only takes one to fail and the whole device fails as well. That's why Motorola introduced 'Six Sigma'. They recognised the fact that using the Probability Multiplication Rule, the more components fitted, then the chance of a failure exponentially increased. Their solution was to increase the reliability of each individual component to 3.4 defects/million.
So, if you buy a device with components manufactured to six sigma, you should be OK. Buy a cheap device with cheap components and you essentially take your chances...
In essence, you get what you pay for.
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In reply to FactorXXX:
No, it's down to the fact that silicon is actually very reliable, compared to capacitors.
In the early days of integrated circuits, MIL-STD 217 (the reliability standard) penalised integrate circuits, on the basis of containing lots of transistors. Whereas the reality is that the silicon rarely fails; what fails is the interconnect within the package (unless the device is subject to ESD). This has eventually been recognised...
The most common capacitors to fail are in particular locations, and it's nothing to do with random failure of thousands of devices. It's down to the fact that capacitors are chemical devices, wet electrolytics especially so, and their MTBF is much lower than the surrounding components. This is exacerbated by using a device close to its maximum ratings of voltage and power, because bigger, higher voltage parts are slightly more expensive. The input capacitors on a mains-powered SMPS are particularly bad, because they have to deal with 400V DC, at a significant current. As a result, they often degrade, losing electrolyte until their capacity falls so far that the cheap regulator saturates the associated inductor, and blows the switch off the board, because it hasn't been designed to protect itself from overcurrent...
You can pick a six sigma device, but if its MTBF is still low, or it's over-stressed, it won't help you. If just means that it's a well-manufactured part; six-sigma is a manufacturing quality measure, not a basic failure mechanism measure.
> That's down to the fact that there could be thousands of electronic components in a modern device and it only takes one to fail and the whole device fails as well.
No, it's down to the fact that silicon is actually very reliable, compared to capacitors.
In the early days of integrated circuits, MIL-STD 217 (the reliability standard) penalised integrate circuits, on the basis of containing lots of transistors. Whereas the reality is that the silicon rarely fails; what fails is the interconnect within the package (unless the device is subject to ESD). This has eventually been recognised...
The most common capacitors to fail are in particular locations, and it's nothing to do with random failure of thousands of devices. It's down to the fact that capacitors are chemical devices, wet electrolytics especially so, and their MTBF is much lower than the surrounding components. This is exacerbated by using a device close to its maximum ratings of voltage and power, because bigger, higher voltage parts are slightly more expensive. The input capacitors on a mains-powered SMPS are particularly bad, because they have to deal with 400V DC, at a significant current. As a result, they often degrade, losing electrolyte until their capacity falls so far that the cheap regulator saturates the associated inductor, and blows the switch off the board, because it hasn't been designed to protect itself from overcurrent...
You can pick a six sigma device, but if its MTBF is still low, or it's over-stressed, it won't help you. If just means that it's a well-manufactured part; six-sigma is a manufacturing quality measure, not a basic failure mechanism measure.
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In reply to Indy:
No, it isn't a cop-out. I give you Apple products, or any 'perceived value' manufacturer. Home entertainment is especially vulnerable to 'perceived value', where the rrp bears no resemblance to the 'honest price', as you put it.
> Thats a cop out.
No, it isn't a cop-out. I give you Apple products, or any 'perceived value' manufacturer. Home entertainment is especially vulnerable to 'perceived value', where the rrp bears no resemblance to the 'honest price', as you put it.
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In reply to Dave the Rave:
WTF.... Yoda you are(n't)
A £1600 Miele with a 10 yr guarantee works out at ~£3/week. A £1000 Miele is £1.90/week both not inc. special offers like the recent £100 off.
Can't afford? now that's bullsh*t!!!
> Utter bullshit was your post.
WTF.... Yoda you are(n't)
A £1600 Miele with a 10 yr guarantee works out at ~£3/week. A £1000 Miele is £1.90/week both not inc. special offers like the recent £100 off.
Can't afford? now that's bullsh*t!!!
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In reply to Indy:
They may work out at a couple of quid a week, but for folk with no cash up front or unable to get credit, then it's Beko every time.
I won't rise to yoda insults, turd.!
> WTF.... Yoda you are(n't)
> A £1600 Miele with a 10 yr guarantee works out at ~£3/week. A £1000 Miele is £1.90/week both not inc. special offers like the recent £100 off.
> Can't afford? now that's bullsh*t!!!
They may work out at a couple of quid a week, but for folk with no cash up front or unable to get credit, then it's Beko every time.
I won't rise to yoda insults, turd.!
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In reply to Indy:
My £150 Beko washing machine is still going strong after 7 years, so that would be approx. 40p/week!!!
At the time I bought it I didn't have £1000 knocking around to buy a Miele machine!!
My £150 Beko washing machine is still going strong after 7 years, so that would be approx. 40p/week!!!
At the time I bought it I didn't have £1000 knocking around to buy a Miele machine!!
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In reply to Indy:
My EE100 cost me £120, 2nd hand. I've spent £80 on parts. That works out at 30p a week. It was built in Wales...
My EE100 cost me £120, 2nd hand. I've spent £80 on parts. That works out at 30p a week. It was built in Wales...
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In reply to captain paranoia:
Yes it is because the cost of the German product 'honestly' reflects the costs of producing a product that won't breakdown after 366 days i.e. decent wages for the workforce, the cost of disposing toxic waste responsibly etc. etc. The tightwads who buy the 'dishonest' cheapo Chinese product are just externalising the cost so its the Chinese worker who 'pays' through abusive working conditions i.e. lives in a dormitory and sees his wife and children once a year and the Chinese environment which has been polluted beyond belief. Then again any tightwad will no doubt whinge Sky Sports or a half pint down the pub each week is FAR more important than the Chinese or the enviroment.
> No, it isn't a cop-out.
Yes it is because the cost of the German product 'honestly' reflects the costs of producing a product that won't breakdown after 366 days i.e. decent wages for the workforce, the cost of disposing toxic waste responsibly etc. etc. The tightwads who buy the 'dishonest' cheapo Chinese product are just externalising the cost so its the Chinese worker who 'pays' through abusive working conditions i.e. lives in a dormitory and sees his wife and children once a year and the Chinese environment which has been polluted beyond belief. Then again any tightwad will no doubt whinge Sky Sports or a half pint down the pub each week is FAR more important than the Chinese or the enviroment.
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In reply to Timmd:
Typical of the ill-considered drivel that 38 Degrees and other online petition sites spew out these days!
Won't this just increase the price of the cheap junk that breaks down too soon?
There's no such thing as a free lunch
> Nice one France!
> On the off chance it'll make any difference, there's a petition started to have the same thing in the UK.
> Spare a few moments of your precious UKC surfing time to sign it peeps.
Typical of the ill-considered drivel that 38 Degrees and other online petition sites spew out these days!
Won't this just increase the price of the cheap junk that breaks down too soon?
There's no such thing as a free lunch
In reply to Indy:
I do agree with this philosophy, and do it myself - I hate cheap junk that breaks. Spend the money on something that will last.
However, it would be a nightmare to enforce this. What the French have done is put something in place that's actually workable, and is probably the best available option.
I do agree with this philosophy, and do it myself - I hate cheap junk that breaks. Spend the money on something that will last.
However, it would be a nightmare to enforce this. What the French have done is put something in place that's actually workable, and is probably the best available option.
In reply to captain paranoia:
That sounds more like the purchasing/commercial department are the ones that are setting the place in the market for the device. If the components are cheap, then yes, they will fail prematurely.
Six Sigma means 3.4 defects/million, therefore it's MTBF shouldn't be low as that's the whole point of it. When Motorola decided that was the reliability they required, they went about setting about a system to achieve it and that then became known as Six Sigma. It may have been hijacked by consultants to mean something else, but ultimately Six Sigma is still 3.4 defects/million.
That sounds more like the purchasing/commercial department are the ones that are setting the place in the market for the device. If the components are cheap, then yes, they will fail prematurely.
Six Sigma means 3.4 defects/million, therefore it's MTBF shouldn't be low as that's the whole point of it. When Motorola decided that was the reliability they required, they went about setting about a system to achieve it and that then became known as Six Sigma. It may have been hijacked by consultants to mean something else, but ultimately Six Sigma is still 3.4 defects/million.
In reply to Indy:
I try to buy stuff that is well made, and will last a long time. I try not to but any 'straight to landfill tat'. I value value for money above all.
I wouldn't buy a Miele, because a) I don't think they're value for money b) I don't think they're actually much better than mid-range offerings and c) I think they fall into the 'perceived value' category.
They're good, but they're not that good.
As for the 'cheap Chinese' argument, it's pretty hard to find consumer electronics not made there. My TVs are made in Turkey (Vestel/Celcus). My RPi is made in Wales. That's probably it...
I try to buy stuff that is well made, and will last a long time. I try not to but any 'straight to landfill tat'. I value value for money above all.
I wouldn't buy a Miele, because a) I don't think they're value for money b) I don't think they're actually much better than mid-range offerings and c) I think they fall into the 'perceived value' category.
They're good, but they're not that good.
As for the 'cheap Chinese' argument, it's pretty hard to find consumer electronics not made there. My TVs are made in Turkey (Vestel/Celcus). My RPi is made in Wales. That's probably it...
In reply to FactorXXX:
Still manufacturing defects. The only thing that will reduce is infant mortality, by reducing premature, manufacturing fault failures. The length of the bathtub is still determined by the basic physics.
Six sigma may be associated with design improvements that lengthen the bathtub, but, fundamentally, it's about reducing the manufacturing variation; that's what the six sigma bit is. It's trying to ensure that the tails of the production variation, measured by the standard deviation, sigma, is so small that even six sigma out from mean, the devices are still within spec.
Still manufacturing defects. The only thing that will reduce is infant mortality, by reducing premature, manufacturing fault failures. The length of the bathtub is still determined by the basic physics.
Six sigma may be associated with design improvements that lengthen the bathtub, but, fundamentally, it's about reducing the manufacturing variation; that's what the six sigma bit is. It's trying to ensure that the tails of the production variation, measured by the standard deviation, sigma, is so small that even six sigma out from mean, the devices are still within spec.
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In reply to timjones:
Why would the cost of cheap junk go up?
Couldn't it (for part of the market at least) encourage people to think about their buying habits more carefully, in buying less things which are more reliable, and also help stimulate a 'race to the top' if more countries followed their lead, in prompting companies to produce more reliable products so that people will buy them?
As, if one looks at Germany, for an example of people looking for reliability, German people will most commonly drive a BMW or VW or Audi, since the reputation of Mercedes went through the floor for reliability.
> Typical of the ill-considered drivel that 38 Degrees and other online petition sites spew out these days!
> Won't this just increase the price of the cheap junk that breaks down too soon?
> There's no such thing as a free lunch
Why would the cost of cheap junk go up?
Couldn't it (for part of the market at least) encourage people to think about their buying habits more carefully, in buying less things which are more reliable, and also help stimulate a 'race to the top' if more countries followed their lead, in prompting companies to produce more reliable products so that people will buy them?
As, if one looks at Germany, for an example of people looking for reliability, German people will most commonly drive a BMW or VW or Audi, since the reputation of Mercedes went through the floor for reliability.
Post edited at 21:03
In reply to Dave the Rave:
If you can't afford a washing machine that will last a decent time, then you can't afford a washing machine. Sorry, but it's not a basic human right.
If cheap machines were catching fire and killing people in this country then there would be outrage at how poor people were suffering as a result. But as long as it's only poor people in China suffering then we want our cheap machines.
> What if you can't afford expensive items? Another tax on the poor?
If you can't afford a washing machine that will last a decent time, then you can't afford a washing machine. Sorry, but it's not a basic human right.
If cheap machines were catching fire and killing people in this country then there would be outrage at how poor people were suffering as a result. But as long as it's only poor people in China suffering then we want our cheap machines.
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In reply to Hooo:
Another super Tory boy from Southern England.
Tell you what. We will do without cheap washers and go and clean them in the local river.
Ps. We will piss in your water
Another super Tory boy from Southern England.
Tell you what. We will do without cheap washers and go and clean them in the local river.
Ps. We will piss in your water
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In reply to Dave the Rave:
Don't you dare call me a fookin Tory. I'm talking about protecting the oppressed who are dying so that you can join in the consumer society.
Don't you dare call me a fookin Tory. I'm talking about protecting the oppressed who are dying so that you can join in the consumer society.
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In reply to Dave the Rave:
It could seem like an unfeeling post.
I've noticed a couple of places in Sheffield which sell reconditioned washing machines, which addresses the throwing away aspect a bit at least.
> Another super Tory boy from Southern England.
It could seem like an unfeeling post.
I've noticed a couple of places in Sheffield which sell reconditioned washing machines, which addresses the throwing away aspect a bit at least.
Post edited at 21:07
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In reply to Hooo:
You are clearly mad.
So. I need to wash my families clothes, can't afford a Gucci longlasting machine, what do I do? Mmmm. I'll buy the cheapest I can afford . Don't care who makes it really . Not my problem. I can't afford morals.
What are you wearing? Oriental clothes? What are you watching/ posting on. Bet it was made cheaply in the Far East , unless you're rich?
> Don't you dare call me a fookin Tory. I'm talking about protecting the oppressed who are dying so that you can join in the consumer society.
You are clearly mad.
So. I need to wash my families clothes, can't afford a Gucci longlasting machine, what do I do? Mmmm. I'll buy the cheapest I can afford . Don't care who makes it really . Not my problem. I can't afford morals.
What are you wearing? Oriental clothes? What are you watching/ posting on. Bet it was made cheaply in the Far East , unless you're rich?
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In reply to Indy:
That's great if you want to do this but something tells me that most people haven't got £1599 to spend on a washing machine or £130 to spend on a kettle.
Not sure how long you expect to keep these items but a ~£20 kettle for me lasts at least 5 years so to get equal £/year value your expensive kettle needs to be around for 32 years by which time if it's still working it will look crap.
And re. the washing machine, if your £1599 machine lasts 4 times what a £400 machine lasts, so around 18-20 years in my estimation, how much has technology changed in the last 20 years? people had only just started using biological washing powder 20 years ago and the washing machines of the time were terribly inefficient and used gallons of water.
They do, for every item they produce they have a legal obligation to arrange the recycling of another item.
Anyone found dumping them without paying the Tax should be fined at least £1000 with prison time.
A reasonable sentiment but do you fancy stumping up the tax to pay the £33K/year to put these fly tippers in prison.
And to add to this, my Beko oven and fridge cost me very little, are A rated for efficiency and have out lived my hotpoint dishwasher that was considerably more expensive.
> Instead of doing something completely useless like voting in the above petition do something practical the next time you buy a washing machine skip the £150 Beko and go for the £1599 Miele instead or buy the fully repairable £130 Dualit kettle.
That's great if you want to do this but something tells me that most people haven't got £1599 to spend on a washing machine or £130 to spend on a kettle.
Not sure how long you expect to keep these items but a ~£20 kettle for me lasts at least 5 years so to get equal £/year value your expensive kettle needs to be around for 32 years by which time if it's still working it will look crap.
And re. the washing machine, if your £1599 machine lasts 4 times what a £400 machine lasts, so around 18-20 years in my estimation, how much has technology changed in the last 20 years? people had only just started using biological washing powder 20 years ago and the washing machines of the time were terribly inefficient and used gallons of water.
> What should happen is that all those tight wads that buy crappy cheap and nasty brands like Beko et. al. should be forced to pay a disposal Tax
They do, for every item they produce they have a legal obligation to arrange the recycling of another item.
Anyone found dumping them without paying the Tax should be fined at least £1000 with prison time.
A reasonable sentiment but do you fancy stumping up the tax to pay the £33K/year to put these fly tippers in prison.
And to add to this, my Beko oven and fridge cost me very little, are A rated for efficiency and have out lived my hotpoint dishwasher that was considerably more expensive.
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In reply to Indy:
Beko, who you seem to like having a go at, are actually Turkish and actually have some manufacturing and design capability in Germany as they bought out Grundig. Otherwise their facilities in Turkey have actually received great acclaim for quality control being environmentally friendly with regards to energy efficiency and waste etc. It had an entire "in business" program dedicated to it on Radio 4.
> Yes it is because the cost of the German product 'honestly' reflects the costs of producing a product that won't breakdown after 366 days i.e. decent wages for the workforce, the cost of disposing toxic waste responsibly etc. etc. The tightwads who buy the 'dishonest' cheapo Chinese product are just externalising the cost so its the Chinese worker who 'pays' through abusive working conditions i.e. lives in a dormitory and sees his wife and children once a year and the Chinese environment which has been polluted beyond belief. Then again any tightwad will no doubt whinge Sky Sports or a half pint down the pub each week is FAR more important than the Chinese or the environment.
Beko, who you seem to like having a go at, are actually Turkish and actually have some manufacturing and design capability in Germany as they bought out Grundig. Otherwise their facilities in Turkey have actually received great acclaim for quality control being environmentally friendly with regards to energy efficiency and waste etc. It had an entire "in business" program dedicated to it on Radio 4.
In reply to gethin_allen:
biological? Add at least 20 years to your guesstimate - my mother used biological in the 70s but stopped when my sister proved allergic to it
biological? Add at least 20 years to your guesstimate - my mother used biological in the 70s but stopped when my sister proved allergic to it
In reply to Indy:
I have only had 2 washing machines in the last 25 years, neither were German and both at the cheaper end of the market. The strong machine broke at the end of last year and I replaced it with a Samsung which very efficient. Since I am semi retired there is know way I could afford a top of the range washing machine.
I have only had 2 washing machines in the last 25 years, neither were German and both at the cheaper end of the market. The strong machine broke at the end of last year and I replaced it with a Samsung which very efficient. Since I am semi retired there is know way I could afford a top of the range washing machine.
In reply to gethin_allen:
I have got a Beko fridge and my father had a Beko fridge freezer, both represent great value for money.
I have got a Beko fridge and my father had a Beko fridge freezer, both represent great value for money.
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In reply to wercat:
Maybe, I was only working on when I remember having issues with it myself after my mum tried it and my skin felt to bits.
> biological? Add at least 20 years to your guesstimate - my mother used biological in the 70s but stopped when my sister proved allergic to it
Maybe, I was only working on when I remember having issues with it myself after my mum tried it and my skin felt to bits.
In reply to Indy:
I've got a long memory and remember you bitching about your Miele White goods! Anyway, that doesn't matter.
Here is a thought, maybe a £1300 washing machine, might be reasonably considered to have a longer life than a £150 one. As has already been mentioned, is all covered by the Sale of Goods Act.
Personally I've had the same cheap washing machine for 10 years, if I had six kids I might have some thing different.
I've got a long memory and remember you bitching about your Miele White goods! Anyway, that doesn't matter.
Here is a thought, maybe a £1300 washing machine, might be reasonably considered to have a longer life than a £150 one. As has already been mentioned, is all covered by the Sale of Goods Act.
Personally I've had the same cheap washing machine for 10 years, if I had six kids I might have some thing different.
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In reply to Indy:
Yeah, get those poor people lining up outside of brighthouse! Middleclass shame of of branded white goods be upon you!
> WTF.... Yoda you are(n't)
> A £1600 Miele with a 10 yr guarantee works out at ~£3/week. A £1000 Miele is £1.90/week both not inc. special offers like the recent £100 off.
> Can't afford? now that's bullsh*t!!!
Yeah, get those poor people lining up outside of brighthouse! Middleclass shame of of branded white goods be upon you!
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In reply to Indy:
And products like my printer clearly has a requirement for spare parts programmed in. It warns me that something is going to need replacing and then it stops working. It also tells me that the ink cartridges are empty when they aren't, and that emptying the used toner bin isn't good enough - I need to buy a new one.
Some of this can be hacked round, but the intention is very clear, it I want it to carry on working I need to pay them more money. It isn't left to chance that a cheap component will fail, it's specifically designed in.
> Utter BS. Products break because they are cheap. Products are cheap because that's what the market wants. The environment or my wallet? Yup my wallet.
And products like my printer clearly has a requirement for spare parts programmed in. It warns me that something is going to need replacing and then it stops working. It also tells me that the ink cartridges are empty when they aren't, and that emptying the used toner bin isn't good enough - I need to buy a new one.
Some of this can be hacked round, but the intention is very clear, it I want it to carry on working I need to pay them more money. It isn't left to chance that a cheap component will fail, it's specifically designed in.
In reply to icnoble:
I've got a Beko dishwasher, it's generally been fine. It's designed to be repairable as well; taking it to bits yourself is easy if there is a problem (I got a matchstick stuck in the pump somehow and it took me only half an hour to get it out).
I've got a Beko dishwasher, it's generally been fine. It's designed to be repairable as well; taking it to bits yourself is easy if there is a problem (I got a matchstick stuck in the pump somehow and it took me only half an hour to get it out).
Post edited at 08:58
In reply to Indy:
My Mum has a Dualit kettle and toaster and has sworn no never by Dualit again. She's been through three kettles and two tosaters, none have lasted more than 18-24 months. Style and "brand" over substance.
(I have got a Miele hoover thogh - it's very good apart from the fact it's so powerful it lifted up the carpets when I first got it!)
> .... or buy the fully repairable £130 Dualit kettle.
My Mum has a Dualit kettle and toaster and has sworn no never by Dualit again. She's been through three kettles and two tosaters, none have lasted more than 18-24 months. Style and "brand" over substance.
(I have got a Miele hoover thogh - it's very good apart from the fact it's so powerful it lifted up the carpets when I first got it!)
In reply to Timmd:
I get the feeling that this thread has become a place for premium brand fanboys to flaunt their white goods...
I get the feeling that this thread has become a place for premium brand fanboys to flaunt their white goods...
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In reply to Timmd:
I guess that it might influence all sorts of things, but I suspect that the bottom end of the market would still exist and the items would just be more expensive in order to finance what is in effect an imposed extended warranty.
> Why would the cost of cheap junk go up?
> Couldn't it (for part of the market at least) encourage people to think about their buying habits more carefully, in buying less things which are more reliable, and also help stimulate a 'race to the top' if more countries followed their lead, in prompting companies to produce more reliable products so that people will buy them?
> As, if one looks at Germany, for an example of people looking for reliability, German people will most commonly drive a BMW or VW or Audi, since the reputation of Mercedes went through the floor for reliability.
I guess that it might influence all sorts of things, but I suspect that the bottom end of the market would still exist and the items would just be more expensive in order to finance what is in effect an imposed extended warranty.
In reply to Clarence:
It's the middle aged equivalent of a bunch of teenagers in fiestas razzing around asda carpark trying to convince their friends that their fat exhaust makes their car so much faster.
> I get the feeling that this thread has become a place for premium brand fanboys to flaunt their white goods...
It's the middle aged equivalent of a bunch of teenagers in fiestas razzing around asda carpark trying to convince their friends that their fat exhaust makes their car so much faster.
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1
In reply to Timmd:
Those saying the market wants cheap are correct. Those saying that people deliberately choose cheap and short-lived machines may have over-simplifed a little. I'm pretty certain that, given the choice, anyone would choose a £150 machine that would last 20 years over a £150 machine that would last 2 years.
In fact, most would probably pay £250 for the 20 year machine. Those unrestrained by cashflow might well pay the full-pro-rata'd £1500. Cash-flow has already been identified as a flaw here, but the bigger flaw is the incomplete information you have with which to make the choice. You have absolute certainty on the price, it's written there in front of you, but you have next to no information about the quality. In fact, what do most people use as a rough measure of quality? The price (and to some extent the brand). Some people will feel that with the expensive one you are 'paying for the brand' and choose the cheaper one, others will think 'buy cheap buy twice' and buy the expensive one. None of them actually have any useful information on the function of the washer, so they haven't chosen the life of the machine at all.
If buy a t-shirt for £1 from Tesco will it last one hunderedth of the time than a £100 one from Prada? Or am I just being conned? How do I know the same isn't true of Miele washing machines?
As a consumer, you have massive choice and very little information with which to make the choice. Fortunately, companies help you out here with branding, by associating certain brands with certain properties you can simply chose the product with the image that best matches your values and forget about the function.
Those saying the market wants cheap are correct. Those saying that people deliberately choose cheap and short-lived machines may have over-simplifed a little. I'm pretty certain that, given the choice, anyone would choose a £150 machine that would last 20 years over a £150 machine that would last 2 years.
In fact, most would probably pay £250 for the 20 year machine. Those unrestrained by cashflow might well pay the full-pro-rata'd £1500. Cash-flow has already been identified as a flaw here, but the bigger flaw is the incomplete information you have with which to make the choice. You have absolute certainty on the price, it's written there in front of you, but you have next to no information about the quality. In fact, what do most people use as a rough measure of quality? The price (and to some extent the brand). Some people will feel that with the expensive one you are 'paying for the brand' and choose the cheaper one, others will think 'buy cheap buy twice' and buy the expensive one. None of them actually have any useful information on the function of the washer, so they haven't chosen the life of the machine at all.
If buy a t-shirt for £1 from Tesco will it last one hunderedth of the time than a £100 one from Prada? Or am I just being conned? How do I know the same isn't true of Miele washing machines?
As a consumer, you have massive choice and very little information with which to make the choice. Fortunately, companies help you out here with branding, by associating certain brands with certain properties you can simply chose the product with the image that best matches your values and forget about the function.
Post edited at 14:33
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1
In reply to Dave the Rave:
I can't afford a £1599 washing machine!
I have been saving though, while my old washing machine is still going strong (bought 8 years ago 2nd hand), so that I have enough for a midrange machine in the future. My cooker on the other hand was given to me about 5 years ago with no instructions. It had numbers instead of temperatures on the dials and a google search for the make & model revealed it was Originally sold in 1963. I had to replace an oven element & buy an in-oven thermometer for it. I think my cooker is ace. Cooks beautifully. There's even one on display in the science museum!
I can't afford a £1599 washing machine!
I have been saving though, while my old washing machine is still going strong (bought 8 years ago 2nd hand), so that I have enough for a midrange machine in the future. My cooker on the other hand was given to me about 5 years ago with no instructions. It had numbers instead of temperatures on the dials and a google search for the make & model revealed it was Originally sold in 1963. I had to replace an oven element & buy an in-oven thermometer for it. I think my cooker is ace. Cooks beautifully. There's even one on display in the science museum!
1
In reply to Oujmik:
Agreed, and that is true of almost all products we buy; unless we're technically competent in the particular field, and have had the opportunity to delve into the guts, we're buying speculatively.
The only thing we have to go on is reviews, either customer reviews, or the likes of Which? Which is why so many companies are tempted to subvert the customer reviews by the hated 'placed testimonials'.
I chose my secondhand washing machine because it was a Hoptpoint, and a model very similar to one I'd had experience of fixing a number of times in a shared house. It was the simplicity of the machine, and the ease of servicing that made me choose it. That and the fact that the drum was almost pristine, with practically no scratching. It was built in 1997, and I bought it in 2002. Keeping it going has been very rewarding...
> None of them actually have any useful information on the function of the washer, so they haven't chosen the life of the machine at all.
Agreed, and that is true of almost all products we buy; unless we're technically competent in the particular field, and have had the opportunity to delve into the guts, we're buying speculatively.
The only thing we have to go on is reviews, either customer reviews, or the likes of Which? Which is why so many companies are tempted to subvert the customer reviews by the hated 'placed testimonials'.
I chose my secondhand washing machine because it was a Hoptpoint, and a model very similar to one I'd had experience of fixing a number of times in a shared house. It was the simplicity of the machine, and the ease of servicing that made me choose it. That and the fact that the drum was almost pristine, with practically no scratching. It was built in 1997, and I bought it in 2002. Keeping it going has been very rewarding...
In reply to RockAngel:
The impression I get with washing machines that to get something repairable and with decent bearings you hav to spend a fortune.
The impression I get with washing machines that to get something repairable and with decent bearings you hav to spend a fortune.
In reply to Timmd:
I think part of the problem is we have forgotten how to fix things. The belt tensioner on my hotpoint tumble dryer wore out recently. It cost me an hour and £8.99 to repair.
I think part of the problem is we have forgotten how to fix things. The belt tensioner on my hotpoint tumble dryer wore out recently. It cost me an hour and £8.99 to repair.
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In reply to radddogg:
This is true.
I recently put a new dishwasher circ pump on and washing machine drain pump, with the help of youtube tutorials to aid diagnosis & talk through fixes (did get a little help with spring clips). Very satisfying and saved a tidy sum.
This is true.
I recently put a new dishwasher circ pump on and washing machine drain pump, with the help of youtube tutorials to aid diagnosis & talk through fixes (did get a little help with spring clips). Very satisfying and saved a tidy sum.
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In reply to Indy:
It's more about having that amount of money available to spend in one go at the time, I would suggest, while paying for rent or mortgage as well, and food and energy and transport costs, and clothing, and home upkeep and raising children.
It's only £3 a week, but you need to be able to not miss that large an amount of cash in total when spending it
> WTF.... Yoda you are(n't)
> A £1600 Miele with a 10 yr guarantee works out at ~£3/week. A £1000 Miele is £1.90/week both not inc. special offers like the recent £100 off.
> Can't afford? now that's bullsh*t!!!
It's more about having that amount of money available to spend in one go at the time, I would suggest, while paying for rent or mortgage as well, and food and energy and transport costs, and clothing, and home upkeep and raising children.
It's only £3 a week, but you need to be able to not miss that large an amount of cash in total when spending it
Post edited at 00:04
In reply to Timmd:
We have a Miele washing machine, our second. The washing machine is pretty well the only bit of domestic equipment that has to be industrially reliable if you're not to be constantly replacing or spending on fixing it, certainly for families. When it fails and you have kids it is a domestic emergency if you aren't close to a launderette.
We're not well off at all but the first machine went 16 years straight without breakdown washing for a family every day practically. The only failure was a door seal that we replaced ourselves at pretty low cost and was an easy fix, about 9 or 10 years in. We put money aside for replacement throughout the life of the first, that's the only way to budget if you have limited means. Breakdowns are very very costly so buy cheap and spend more in the long run.
We have a Miele washing machine, our second. The washing machine is pretty well the only bit of domestic equipment that has to be industrially reliable if you're not to be constantly replacing or spending on fixing it, certainly for families. When it fails and you have kids it is a domestic emergency if you aren't close to a launderette.
We're not well off at all but the first machine went 16 years straight without breakdown washing for a family every day practically. The only failure was a door seal that we replaced ourselves at pretty low cost and was an easy fix, about 9 or 10 years in. We put money aside for replacement throughout the life of the first, that's the only way to budget if you have limited means. Breakdowns are very very costly so buy cheap and spend more in the long run.
Post edited at 09:18
In reply to radddogg:
also that some "things" are no longer repairable ( sealed tank or drums in washing machines, makes it difficult if possible to get at the bearing), or it is not cost effective to repair.
> I think part of the problem is we have forgotten how to fix things.
also that some "things" are no longer repairable ( sealed tank or drums in washing machines, makes it difficult if possible to get at the bearing), or it is not cost effective to repair.
Post edited at 10:52
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