UKC

I am wondering why these latest power assisted (I've only seen them used as power only I.e. no pedaling) bikes aren't treated the same in law as a moped? They do around 30mph, the only difference I can see is they are powered by batteries rather than fuel, yet if I buy an electric car I need a license etc. I guess they weigh less, but they weigh a lot more than a normal pedal bike

The reason I ask is I see them being riden like a scooter on the road, but also on paths. And in some cases by riders too young to get a moped.

Some of the newer MTB models would rival a motocross bike off road, they are seriously impressive which then begs the question are they suitable for bridle paths?

I'm all for electric assist for those that it might encourage eventually onto bikes, but a lot of these seem to be electric motorbikes with superfluous pedals

In reply to balmybaldwin: so you haven't actually tried one. I'm not sure what the uk limit for power is, but they feel vêr different to a moped to ride.

They are very good for commuting if you're 10km plus each way.

In reply to balmybaldwin:

I'm pretty sure the motor only assists up to a certain speed (14mph I think) then cuts out. That's what I thought anyway.

In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

I'm sure the ones I saw in London the other week(dh MTB style) were quicker as was the one today (a more normal looking e bike) doing at least 20 with no pedaling

In reply to balmybaldwin:


Well it wasn't:

https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules

15mph max.

In reply to andy:


I think enforcement may be a bit lacking with electric bikes in the UK...


I see your rules and raise you a 5.2kw electrically assisted pedal bike that advertises a 50mph top speed and is sold in the UK:

http://www.evobike.co.uk/the-bikes/the-bomber/spec-sheet/

I think these things could grow to be a real problem spot for both legislation and enforcement. On the flip side I think one might be great for my new commute which is in the 10-15 mile with big hills category. Time saved over cycling and by having no need for a shower and change of clothes, all without needing VED, insurance, an MOT or a licence...

In reply to andy:

It seems people are breaking the law then (I checked my speedo and the traffic and the bloke today was doing 20 if not a bit more) but there was definitely no pedaling going on. It seems 20 is the US limit but there are bikes for sale in the sort of style I saw in London (at the formula e race, but outside on the road downhill style MTBs with battery and gubins in an enlarged frame) that do up to 50 (manufacturer claim) and plenty on the market in between.

In reply to Greasy Prusiks:


Thats the UK legal restriction. They are generally capable of more though and, like 50cc mopeds, many may find the restrictor magically breaking.

In reply to dissonance:
Perhaps needs a little enforcement to be done. The idea of an electric moped (as distinct from a pushbike with a bit of assistance for going uphill) is a good idea, but if that's what it is it needs to be insured etc as such.

In reply to wintertree:




To be ridden legally on UK highways, that bike will need you to register as it's keeper with the DVLA, have a moped licence, insurance, and wear a helmet by law (and don't think a cycle helmet will do). Unless you can demonstrate that it has been limited as required. At least it's zero emissions, so tax-free.

But you're right, enforcement is currently lacking, but it'll catch up soon enough if they become common enough. Can't see it being a major problem in the long run.

In reply to balmybaldwin:

Hi
I commute most days on an electric bike, 18km each way. Here (New Zealand) you're limited to a 200w motor legally, which mine is. My top speed on the flat is about 32-35 kph on the throttle, but I'm usually going around 20-25 as I like to pedal, and I don't like going too fast. Though being able to go 30kph/20mph is really useful in traffic! It takes me about an hour to get to work, lots of traffic lights. I get overtaken by electric bikes, and most non-electric Lycra wearing riders. It does seem that many ebikes are imported/handbuilt and go much faster than my top speed, but then so do most non electric fancy road bikes.


Helen

In reply to Neil Williams:


I guess if they start having problems then the police will. Thinking back to when I was a kid I dont recall anyone every being caught for a derestricted 50cc (even at friend of friend/myth level) though so the same might apply.

In reply to Just Another Dave:
It might also be that some designs such as this clearly-pushbike-derived one may not meet with type approval in terms of things like brakes. Regular mopeds are typically a bit heavier built than pushbikes, and there's no reason to assume that an electric one would need to be different.

In reply to balmybaldwin:


They are, if they go faster than 15.5mph. The faster ones are sold as off road vehicles.

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/electric-bike-guides/uk-electric-bike-law/

I've not seen them being used at speed but if it does catch on it will be like the minibike craze, confiscations will put people of doing it, especially the very expensive stealth bomber.

In reply to Just Another Dave:


Maybe, maybe not. There's a big area between the speed at which electric motors are not meant to be used in the UK and the speed at which even bumbly cyclists like myself can go, let alone serious amateur cyclists.

If you're a person tasked with enforcement, are you going to stop every cyclist doing 20mph to check that the regulator on their electric assist had it disengaged at that speed?

Clearly things like the "stealth bomber" range of bikes stand out, but with stuff like the Copenhagen wheel any bike can become an electrically assisted bike.

As others have said, the power limits on 50cc mopeds for 16 year old riders are - anecdotally - not well enforced. In the case of an electric bike it could be a hackable software switch, which is going to prove even more of an enforcement challenge.

In reply to balmybaldwin:


By law they're severely power and speed limited (250w, 15.5mph). Trikes are allowed a little bit more power. Many aren't compliant and should indeed be licensed as a motorcycle (or the law could be relaxed slightly).


You need to be 14+ to ride an electric bike legally.


A very few home builds based on big downhill bikes might but a big motocross bike is a beast. I've not seen anything commercially available that comes close. Road legal electric bikes have less performance than pedal powered bikes.

jk

In reply to andy:


I was thinking about this some more.

Which is safer?

1) A person riding sustained at 25mph under joint pedal and electric power, physically quite relaxed and with their time devoted to hazard perception.

2) A person riding sustained at 25mph under just pedal power, hazard perception reduced by the focus on physical exertion.

It doesn't really make much sense, does it? You could argue that an electric bike has more mass and therefore more ability to cause injury to others in a crash, but the mass difference is similar to that between different cyclists, and will decrease over time.

Interesting dichotomy...

In reply to wintertree:



3) A person riding at 15mph because they aren't fit enough to ride a heavy electric bike at 25mph. This one.

The second is unlikely to happen because those who are fit enough to be riding bikes of any kind at a sustained 25mph will be "proper" cyclists with regular road bikes. These electric bikes aren't marketed at those people, they're marketed at people who would otherwise be too old/unfit to cycle in order to encourage them to do so. The first, well, if it were a motorcycle you'd need insurance etc.

Most people ride bicycles at around 10mph much of the time, downhill aside.

Neil

In reply to wintertree:


On the other hand very few cyclists are capable of riding at 25mph for any period of time. So you are less likely to run into, perhaps literally, 2.
It may have an interesting effect on the "you approached too fast" issue as well. Anyone who can ride a bike quickly will know sometimes people seem caught out at the speed of approach. If electric bikes make that more common place then may reduce this and so make it safer for quicker riders.

The split between pedal assisted and throttled bikes may also prove important. Offroad when it gets interesting your ability to pedal is restricted and speed drops. Whereas if the power is applied regardless speed can be higher.

Be interesting to see what happens.

In reply to Neil Williams:


That's changing though, the "Copenhagen Wheel" for example seems to be aiming at a much wider market. 25mph is a clear stretch, but what about 16mph? 20mph?

Think of a bicycle with that wheel fitted. If I use the electric motor to go at 16mph I can be done for driving without tax, insurance, MOT, motorbike helmet and possibly a licence. Serious crime. If I use my feet to go at that speed, no crime.

It doesn't seem like a sensible state of affairs...

In reply to balmybaldwin:

I think there's a problem - I was riding on a cycle path, uphill, on a road bike and working hard at about 18mph and got passed without warning by a bulky electric bike doing about 30mph, with the 'cyclist' not turning a pedal. Now I don't mind that on the road, but on a 5 feet wide path it's taking the piss

In reply to wintertree:

But that's the same as a road bike vs. a moped. Be careful; the only likely conclusion is mandation of tax, insurance, training/test and helmets on pushbikes, which would be terrible.

In reply to balmybaldwin:

On another note if something is classed as a bike, as in bicycle then surely it's exempt from speed limits? Just a thought.

In reply to Neil Williams:


Similar but not the same, as they are different vehicles in that case. In the case of an electrically assisted bike it comes down to use of pedals vs use of batteries.


That would be disastrous. I can't think of a particularly affordable and workable solution to this one. Batteries are increasing their energy density at about 5% per year, so as problems go it's not going to just go away...

It's not just electric bikes either, people are building prototype mechanical KERS systems now - youtube.com/watch?v=XLvc2itJYuQ& - not sure what effect they have on cornering and it might want a safety guard...

In reply to balmybaldwin:

On a positive note, wouldn't it be great to see these replacing mopeds on Kalymnos !

Plus, I look forward to buying one in 20 years time - and at the current rate of progress it will be lighter than my road bike !

In reply to Chris the Tall:

While it could create the sea-of-mopeds issue as found in Vietnam, electric motorcycles would be a very good thing for city transport.

I expect the current situation in terms of licencing (the 15mph limit for assistance) is probably the most pragmatic way of handling it - it recognises that with effort you can ride a pushbike faster than that, but that most people won't, but those who will tend to be committed road cyclists who are generally far more skilled at handling a bike than Old Mrs Jones off to the shops. Above that it's a motorcycle (however powered) and would require insurance, test etc.

Neil