UKC

Trad climbing is undoubtedly the principal discipline of the British climbing scene. In the hierarchy of rock climbing pursuits, traditional climbing is widely regarded as the one to aspire to. Seasoned trad climbers often look down their nose at sport climbers and even more so at boulderers, and don't even mention the peculiar breed of indoor climbers...

Joking aside, the aim of this article isn't to encourage a Trad vs Sport debate, discuss which is superior or get you to sell your rack on E-bay. It's simply to show that by mixing up your styles of climbing you can learn a thing or two and improve your trad grade at the same time.

Read more

In reply to UKC Articles:
The UKC table shows about 2.5M logged trad routes per year. Now lets think about how many indoor routes get climbed per year. Personal experience suggests one person climbing not particularly hard twice a week could do 1,000/year. So lets say a wall like Ratho has the equivalent of 1,000 customers with that intensity (I'm guessing it actually has far more customers but most of them don't go twice a week). That would be 1,000,000 indoor climbs per year just at one wall.

So I'm going to claim indoor climbing is the favourite UK discipline in terms of routes climbed per year and trad isn't even close.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

I'd say that trad is my favourite, but not my most frequent! I have managed a whole 5 trad routes this year, and only one of those on lead. I couldn't even begin to count how many indoor routes I have done.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh: Indoor climbing doesn't count, it's not real climbing. Real climbing involves rocks, not plastic and wood.

Andy F

In reply to UKC Articles:

OK, I'll stick my head above the parapet. Indoor climbing is not really climbing though is it? Just kidding but someone was bound to say it.

Al

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:


Well the key phrase there is "in terms of routes climbed per year". How you define the UK's 'principal discipline' depends on how you measure these things. I don't believe many films about indoor climbing appear at Kendal, for example.

In reply to andy farnell:


Trad climbing isn't real climbing. Real climbing involves actually spending a significant amount of time making upwards progress with your hands and feet, not standing around holding ropes, looking at the view, fiddling with gear, taking photos of your mates, coiling ropes, reading the guidebook, eating sarnies...

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

You must re-asses this in metres climbed: average indoor route is maybe 7m ??

In reply to UKC Articles:

I wouldn't dispute the overall message of this article. However it assumes that higher grades == progress. Poking fun at trad climbers 'merely enjoying themselves' is always fashionable amongst the grade pushers - but perhaps it's them who have missed the point ?

Otherwise, indoor climbing, bouldering and sports all carry certain risks of injury which will NOT make for progress. Twisted ankles, sprained shoulders, tendonitis are all more common outside of trad and relieve you of time on the crag.

In reply to LeeWood:


Not at Ratho

NoIn reply to Ramblin dave:


No argument from me about that. Ledge shuffling isn't climbing 😉

Andy F

In reply to UKC Articles:

Although all of the things you mention in the article can be practiced by sport climbing/bouldering, and these disciplines may be better for doing it than trad, you can certainly practice all of the above whilst trad climbing if you're prepared to push yourself.

In reply to UKC Articles:

"The beauty of trad lies mostly in the places it takes you, the situation and the sense of adventure that can be experienced whilst working out gear placements and building belays."

Does it?

It worries me when I read things like this. You've lumped so many different types of traditional climbing together and then made general comments about them. You seem to mean onsight traditional climbing on multi-pitch routes, not all trad climbing..

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:


It's the UK's favourite form of training, it's neither a "discipline" nor "actual climbing" but a means to an end, i.e. climbing actual rock to the best of your ability.

In reply to Franco Cookson:



Absolutely!


Write a letter to someone about it then. Ooops - you already did

In reply to LeeWood:


In metres, climbing mount Snowdon wins hands down - or are we looking down our noses at those particular climbers

In reply to galpinos:


Rubbish. Plenty of people climb indoors who aren't that interested in going outdoors. Plenty more people climb indoors well into the realm of diminishing returns for improving their outdoor climbing. I mean, the time that I spend at the wall trying to get that heel hook to stick on the steep overhang isn't going to be the difference between me getting up a VS this weekend and not managing it. But I still keep doing it because it's fun and challenging.

In reply to UKC Articles:

Whereas I understand the basic premise of the article and its a good idea, there are some odd stats in there used to try to illustrate a point which really don't stand up to scrutiny.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

One of the beauties of trad (and of climbing in general) is improvement is a choice ... not everyone needs to itry to improve. I see more people held back by trying to improve without clear reasons why they need to (ego on its own can easily lead to impatience, frustration and injury). People enjoy climbing for all sorts of reasons, many of which are completely grade independent.

In reply to LeeWood:

And the average grit 'route' is... :P

(also I reckon the average indoor route is probably a little bit more than 7m)

In reply to Ramblin dave:

More ego? I also enjoy the challenge of movement on plastic and the company of indoor climbers for its own sake. I prefer rock but the local walls are very convenient for a quick couple of hours for when the weather is bad or there isnt time to get to the crag.

In reply to andrewmcleod:

Some of the least popular routes on grit are some of the longest: classics on Dovestones Main....many wonderful traverses....

In reply to GrahamD:


They aren't climbers, they are walkers/ramblers. Climbing involves hands and feet, sometimes using tools.

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell:


have you never seen tools climbing Snowdon with flip flops on their feet and holding beer in their hands?

In reply to andy farnell:

Sometimes even walking up a mountain can involve using hands and feet. What about scramblers, are they climbers and people who climb trees. All of this though is just playing with words and I would have thought that most people would recognise climbers as rock climbers which indoor climbers are clearly not

Al

In reply to Simon Caldwell:


On the news or in the paper, yes.

Andy F

In reply to UKC Articles:

In general there's nothing wrong with this article, but I don't like the title. Change it to "Why ONLY Trad Climbing is Holding You Back" and you may have a point!

In reply to UKC Articles:

From general observation, I'd say that most trad climbers who want to improve but are unable to are impeded by the very much outdated notion (often perpetuated by articles such as this one) that the leader never falls.

Though Natalie does make valid points as regards fitness gained by sport climbing, and the value of recognising ones physical limits, the best way to get better at trad climbing is to find and push your limits trad climbing, and you can only do that by breaching them from time to time. I found Hazels article for the BMC a couple of years ago very useful when I was a bit stuck.

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/hazel-findlay-fear-of-falling

In reply to UKC Articles:

I'd also go on to say that most climbers operating at HS are more than fit enough to climb HVS, but held back through fear, thus invalidating the need for fitness gains

In reply to Ramblin dave:


You mean eating sarnies isn't climbing? Damn, I shall have to re-evaluate my training regime

In reply to UKC Articles:

And since I know it's coming there are plenty of VS climbs that are totally safe to fall off

In reply to UKC Articles:

I know several climbers who started in the 60's, the same as me, who have never taken a leader fall and they have climbed E5 which hardly demonstrates a lack of progress. You could I suppose argue that they have not reached their potential.

Al

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Very true. Spending your days ledge shuffling, carrying cow bells, doing Severe after Severe in your tatty Ron Hills and Helly Hanson fleece isn't going to improve your grade. But as everyone knows, the best climber is the one having the most fun...

Andy F

In reply to GridNorth:

To reach E5 without ever falling off is some feat! I can only concur that you almost certainly never reached your true potential since you must have nearly always climbed with some in reserve.

In reply to bensilvestre:


'Fit enough for HVS' is pretty naff in sport terms though (speaking as someone who is knowingly pretty naff in sport or trad terms). HVS is only 5+/6a?

In reply to andy farnell:



By your definition, but its not a universally held one. Its no more arbitrary than someone doing Alpine routes saying that dry toolers or boulders aren't climbers. Your "walkers" are doing something far closer to what an Alpinist is doing than someone sitting in a sweaty cellar with their shirt off struggling to get their arse off the ground.

In reply to UKC Articles:

Articles coming from to narrow a viewpoint of climbing.

Its like saying
''Why ONLY sport climbing is holding you back at trad''
-Crocs are unsuitable for 2 hour walk ins
- You forgot your sarnies
- You can't jam for toffee

Both viewpoints are ridiculous in their blinkered focus.

In reply to UKC Articles:

i onsighted e2 3 and 6c sport for years,then did sport only and trained hard for for a couple years climbed 7c plus and a few 7cs ,i onsight 7b indoors went back to trad in the hope of onsighting e4 tried really hard and was totally comitted but got spanked most of the time.what i learned from the above is that the endurance required for trad is totally different ,and in my mind onsighting e4 is physically more demanding than redpointing 7c .by the way i enjoy both just think the article isnt really correct.

In reply to Steve nevers:





- Clipsticks are shit at placing gear

In reply to LeeWood:

And volume per session?

In reply to d conacher:

I'm surprised! I'd have thought someone onsighting 7b and redpointing 7c should be climbing E5. Maybe more endurance is required but I'd still have thought the higher physical and technical standard would have made hanging on to figure out moves either easier or not necessary.

In reply to d conacher:

Most E4s are a lot less physically demanding than 7c, in fact there are plenty of E4s that would get about f6b if they had bolts in them. Obviously they're gonna really hurt if you come off them so in that regard they're much more mentally demanding than the 7c.
I expect to onsight (or ground up quickly) an E4, but 7c is a whole world away.

In reply to d conacher:

Yes thats v notable in my observations: many sport climbers can muster great bursts of power but its not complemented by the stamina necessary to get through a 50m pitch. Hanging on while placing gear has got to be an incredible stamina builder - for which their is no equal motivation in the other sub-disciplines.

In reply to UKC Articles:

It's been interesting, moving from the UK to the USA: trad climbing in the UK, I didn't find too many harder routes (over HVS for me) were that inspiring. Most of the E-grade routes I saw either had spaced gear or were steep/thuggy - not really my style. I'm really enjoying climbing somewhere the grading system doesn't award points for danger, and there's loads of beautiful granite cracks that I can fill with all the gear I can carry. Suddenly I'm inspired to train more and get good enough to climb 5.10c, 5.10d. 5.11a, whereas I was never that interested in climbing E2 or E3.

It's also interesting that there really aren't any good routes round here beneath VS equivalent, so people have to climb harder to climb something fun!

In reply to d conacher:

Hey Dougie, interesting points you've made and totally agree with what you've said! I remember the conversation I had with you about how hard Freak Out was and would agree that on-sighting E4's in similar locations are physically and mentally very demanding.

Good question though, what is harder, on-sighting mountain E4 or on-sighting 7c? I personally think that on-sighting E4 in that type of environment would be harder, although maybe I'm just shit at the walk-ins!

In reply to buzby78:


A ridiculous question!

In reply to UKC Articles:

Whilst I agree that multiple discplines will teach you to become a better climber I find the tone of the article a little condescending to trad climbers. Perhaps another article should be written to ask why so many sport climbers underachieve at trad climbing. It is actually possible to onsight some E5's with an onsight sport grade of 6c+. Trad climbers will make dynamic moves or take falls when the risks involved are reasonable. We might also ask why sport belayers make lousy trad belayers - a soft catch is not my first thought when hurtling towards a ledge and no, I don't want my belayer to stand away from the base of the crag and unzip all my wires.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Yes a ridiculous question I agree, I'll take this up with Dougie next time he's down the wall...

In reply to andy farnell:


your profile pic is of you climbing indoors!

In reply to LeeWood:


That may be more a comment on the (mostly short?) sport available in the UK than sport climbing in general?

I think it's more nuanced than that. Training and overuse injuries come with pushing hard and that will happen on both trad and sport, it's just that there are probably more people pushing it on sport. Whereas people climbing VS or 6a aren't likely to get chronic injuries. Serious acute injuries are of course mostly the preserve of trad, whereas sprained ankles may well be more prevalent with bouldering as you say.

In reply to buzby78:
May be E4 will feel harder of you do hardly any trad but if you do a reasonable amount, I should think E4 will feel pretty straightforward compared to 7c (even redpoint). E4 is at most 7a, often less. I've onsighted a few E4s and a very few E5s whereas 7c would be a major effort and I don't even know if I could do the moves. Mind you, never tried one but the 7b+s I've tried have been hard enough! The real point though is you get good at what you do regularly.

In reply to Misha:
True, I think I (along with quite a few others) need the "Why Sport Climbing is holding you back..." article for sure!

In reply to Kafoozalem:

"It is actually possible to onsight some E5's with an onsight sport grade of 6c+"

Totally. When I climbed my first few e5's I hadn't climbed harder than 7a sport (mostly for lack of ever trying to red point anything). Inversely, I climbed my first 8a a few days ago and I'm not about to start flashing e7's (I'm still mostly a trad climber so it won't be for a lack of practice like d conacher). I'm undoubtedly fitter with stronger fingers but the reason I'm not climbing E6's every weekend is because I'm not trying them, and, occasionally, falling off them. That is what I need to do to progress at trad, but (at last) I'm pretty happy operating where I am (for now ;P).

And to the guy who mentioned moving to the states where the routes are protectable. Yeah great American cracks are awesome and easy (boring?) to protect but the notion that there aren't many routes where you don't have to run it out above HVS is a TOTAL fallacy. All rock types except perhaps natural grit are abound with gear covered routes up to a high standard, and for me certainly a large part of the joy of British trad on sighting (as mentioned in this article) is spending time searching for that gear. It just becomes a little less obvious and harder to place sometimes on the harder routes, it's still there though.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:


Don't forget not all Trad routes are logged. A lot of trad climbers find it difficult to see the screen beneath their bushy beards and the stumpy caloused finger tips make typing too hard for logging climbs to be practical.

In reply to Sharp:


My guess is that trad and indoor climbers would be logging routes climbed for very different reasons. I can't see much reason to log indoor routes, other than to monitor your own progress as part of a fitness/ proficiency regime - it's like keeping a journal of how much time you spend at the gym or writing down what you eat. There may be an element of that in logging trad routes, but I suspect that it has much more to do with the enjoyment of getting out to great places where it's really nice just to be there (this hardly applies in the same way to your local climbing wall), and then wanting to re-live those experiences through recalling them, writing them down being one way to do that.

Different reasons for logging means different things will be logged with different levels of accuracy, so making comparisons between the two would be at best a stab in the dark, at worst, meaningless.

In reply to mishabruml:


That's because I train indoors, as indoors is only ever training. I enjoy climbing wherever it is, but only rock counts on a personal level.

Andy F

In reply to UKC Articles:

The premise of the article is bang on. Granted, not everybody will want to improve their trad climbing. If that is the case then fine, but realise that improving your grade on trad is not simply an ego thing. It opens up new routes, crags, situations and experiences that you won't find in the lower grades.

If you DO want to improve your trad climbing then, for heavens sake, do less trad climbing. There is some argument that not doing any trad will kill your trad head, however this is much outweighed by the fact that routes that would once have been at your limit will feel much much easier and thus less scary.

In reply to Will Hunt:



This premise is problematic because there will always be another grade above - a new challenge. The whole system of values which we are fed with manipulates the psychology in the same way that the stock market is supposed to work - continuous growth - is not possible, and leads to a crash - injury or demotivation.

But NB I'm not against reasonable improvement. Climbing 'better' is not only about harder grades but staying safe, efficient and and enjoying the moment.

In reply to d conacher:


You're doing it wrong.

In reply to d conacher:

You must be shit at trad climbing. If you can onsight 7a/+ you should find most e5 6as steady away. I used to when those were my grades.

buzby - "what is harder, on-sighting mountain E4 or on-sighting 7c"
You must be on crack to think that's a good question! Better question might be with E6 and 7c.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

endurance is all i have got ,am weak and skinny the point am trying to make is the endurance is trad endurance is different to sport i found myself and most folk i spoke to work the route so when you redpoint its not that hard because you know every move but one fumbled clip and your not going to get it but in trad placing gear in stressfull positions eventually stops you,trying to get local and power endurance is quite hard i found,nobody else reached the same conclusion.

In reply to deacondeacon:

its maybe not

In reply to Michael Gordon:

but your not hanging around figuring out the moves on redpoint you have them wired.

In reply to UKC Articles:

Odd that all the discussion has very little mention of the differing psychology of trad on-site leading vs sport red-pointing. Loads of folks can do the latter but can't handle the former - there is only only one way to get better at that!


Chris

In reply to UKC Articles:

A point that may have been missed is that which type of climbing you do depends to a great extent on where you live and how much time you have available for the climbing/travelling. If you live in SE England you need a lot of time to climb trad and get used to placing gear efficiently as well as having few people to share trad experiences with. and then it rains.
Far too much fuss is made about trad in the UK. Starting on climbing trad 50 years ago my chief regret is not having tried as hard as I could on bouldering and sport climbing and top roping, all things not available in south west then.

My ideal climbs are long multi-pitch climbs onsight using the odd piece of gear to rest on if necessary, to ensure getting to the top and avoiding failure, getting benighted. In a log book, if I had one, I might put down near success 2 rests. In practise I consider it just a mildly tainted success. All styles of climbing help in succeeding on beautiful long lines when you are able to travel to them.

In reply to Chris Craggs:


I wonder. I've been onsighting trad for a few years now, and I'm fairly confident, but it's only recently I've overcome my fear of falling on bolts, which was a psychological barrier to redpointing harder sport routes, so I didn't really try it. How many others are the same?

In reply to Will Hunt:


For mid-grade punters I'm still unconvinced of the idea of a "trad head" being an advantage. I did wonder for a long time when living in Finland whether it was just Finnish granite sports routes which were "sportingly bolted" and hence terrifying in comparison to the trad routes, but now having sport climbed at various English and Welsh venues over the last year there are plenty of UK sports routes which aren't bolted like a climbing wall also. So, now, I can climb HVS on grit where I'll have my hands jammed securely in a crack and whenever I get slightly nervous I can stuff a cam or nut in, normally well above my head - or I can be crimping on a polished limestone 6a+ with the bolt a bit below my feet, the next one not yet within reach, and having to climb (for me) hard! I know which of those two scenarios is the scariest. Basically sport climbers are much braver than most of us mid-grade trad punters.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Sport scares me a lot more than trad. Indoor leading scares me a lot more than trad! I really need to get over my fear of falling, but I find this a lot harder than trad where I know I'm very unlikely to fall off!

In reply to d conacher:

It is. I climb a lot, 3-4 days a week. Trad, sport and bouldering and I can assure you I try hard at all disciplines but getting to 7c is a very, very long way off.
You can get a long way in trad climbing being technically not a very good climber if you're willing to put in lots and lots of mileage.
Also there are E4s where no gear placement stamina is necessary at all. Wings of unreason, the strangler, jetrunner to name a few, they're all safe routes and I doubt there's a harder move than a f6c would throw at you amongst the lot.

In reply to LeeWood:

I have no idea what you mean.

In reply to LeeWood:

Hang on, I think I've got it.

Do you mean that there is no point getting better at climbing because you can never be infinitely good at climbing?

Well I'm glad we've cleared that up then. It makes perfect sense.

In reply to deacondeacon:

It's really interesting how different people have such differing views of what is hard.

Equivalences between 7c onsight and E4, and similarly between a few E5s and thinking a 7c redpoint woukd be too hard, speak volumes about people's preferences, strengths and weaknesses.

I do the same - I'm not naturally very strong, so I look at people who have bouldered 7B but think 7c is a long way off and assume that either the 7Bs were of a style that has no crossover to physical strength whatsoever or that they're chronically unfit because from my perspective doing powerful boulder 7A quite often feels simply impossible, so the concept of 7c feeling a long way off from that position is incomprehensible...

In reply to deacondeacon:
I have a friend who has redpointed 7c+ but he hasn't got close to onsighting E4 yet. Of course he is focusing more on hard sport at the moment but he has a long trad base before he got into sport climbing and he is still trad climbing. Nevertheless I know he's pretty chuffed onsighting E1s in good style currently. I have no doubt he can physically climb some (most?) E4s but if your heart and head aren't in it, clearly 7c can be harder than E4!

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Indoor climbing is not climbing, it's training

In reply to Ramon Marin:


Trad is not climbing, it's ledge-shuffling
Sport is not climbing, it's cheating
Bouldering is not climbing, it's arse-shuffling
Mountaineering is not climbing, it's high-altitude walking
DWS is not climbing, it's diving
Winter climbing is not climbing, it's masochism
Aid climbing is not climbing, it's engineering
Dry tooling is not climbing, it's aid climbing
...

What was climbing again?

In reply to d conacher:

In my opinion if you can redpoint 7C you could physically do most E6,s & 7,s It,s not more physical to onsight E4 it,s more mentally challenging. I,ve only ever done a couple of routes of 7c & above, but I,ve onsighted dozens of E5,s & 6,s and even soloed some.
Because of the mental challenge on harder trad. that,s what makes it more memorable, as opposed to the learnt physicality of sport. That,s more like a dance routine.
The late great Pete Livesey was a master of mind control and although his climbing partner John Sheard was technically superior to Pete he was grades adrift at leading on trad.
Some years ago John and myself went to Malham after he,d had a protracted lay off from climbing and upon seeing everyone sat on bolts, John said "I,ll be able to lead E6 now", as this was before the adoption of French grades
Put it into perspective

In reply to UKC Articles:

In my opinion...

If its just the physical aspect holding you back from trad climbing harder then there's no reason why doing some sport shouldn't help this.

If it's the mental aspect holding you back from trad then falling on trad is the best practice. Practising falling indoors and on sport will help too but not the the same extent.

I used to onsight E2, occasionally E3 (it was definitely mental holding me back), but after solely sport climbing for a few months I climbed my first E5 on my first day back at trad (not having climbed E4 at the time) and it felt easy. I think sport climbing had changed my mental focus of climbing in general (ie that it's ok to try something hard and fall off - in sport its even expected most of the time) and I was putting a lot less pressure on myself to OS.

A year later, I've been mostly trad climbing and lack of getting on hard trad routes has meant less falling and less falling has meant getting scared of falling again... so now I'm trying to do some sport on the odd weekend to keep up both fitness and the mental idea that its ok to fall and fail.

Some very good points in this article. I haven't improved much in years and could benefit massively from a good bout of sport climbing.
However I think the reverse is also true. Climbers who only climb bolted limestone and nothing else would benefit from the different rock types that UK trad has on offer. And climbing on different mediums with different styles makes you an all round more experienced rock climber.

In reply to UKC Articles:

According to UKC:
Type of Climb Number of Logged Ascents
Trad 2,330,869
Sport 823,898


Has anyone pointed out that these figures are are best incomplete data therefore anything based on them is purely speculative and therefore inaccurate?

Whole article and the discussion caused by it are just yet more naval-gazing and elitism.

In reply to Steve nevers:







I'd go further. How many sport routes and trad routes exist within the UKC database? Without looking (I don't know how), I'd guess there are approximately 50 times as many trad routes as sport routes. So in terms of number of climbs per route, the average trad route sees maybe 10 ascents per year, the average sport routes 150 ascents per year. So it seems that people are only trad climbing because the sport routes are clogged up and the answer to the imaginary problem the article poses is or course to retro bolt as many (hard) trad routes as possible, making them available for wannabe rock athletes like ourselves to use for outdoor training.

Or something.

In reply to deacondeacon:

there all grit routes and probably quite short, not really suited to getting endurance for 7c,am sure if you went to malham and worked a 7c for a while you would get it .if you could be bothered .

In reply to john arran:

Hi john your well respected whats your opinion on my ramblings.
cheers dougie.

In reply to abarro81:

what your only onsighting e6 when your onsight sport grade is 8b and you have climbed 9a,

In reply to d conacher:

My view is that the typical grade equivalence puts E4 at around 6c/7a or so, so if you're climbing 7c and not able to get up most E4s there's something stopping you. Most likely it will be psychological even if it feels like you're not fit enough as you get pumped on E4s. You may be gripping too hard through nervousness, or not resting properly when you can, again through nervousness.

My initial question if I was coaching would be if you've ever, or often, fallen on trad gear? If you fall frequently on trad gear we'd have to look elsewhere but my initial thought would be that the idea of falling is stopping you climbing to anywhere near your physical potential. If so, addressing that would likely produce far greater returns than simply getting yet stronger and fitter so you don't get nervous on slightly less easy ground for you.

In reply to john arran:
In my opinion, some consideration also has to be given to where the E4 is located and how long this route is?

Of course, a single pitch E4 with a 10 minute walk in close to home should be relatively easy for the average 7c climber.

It's going to be a different story when you ask this climber to walk in for a few hours with a heavy pack and climb a multi pitch E4 in a mountain environment (which is what Dougie was referring to in his original post).

Is this achievable for most average 7c climbers nowadays?

Not most of the ones I know anyway...

In reply to abarro81:



...or E6 and 9a according to your scorecard?

In reply to john arran:



There could be a traditional, historical, pre-programmed psychological factor at play here John regarding trad, based around 'onsight' being the most desirable style, and 'falling' being something you're not really supposed to do?

Whereas with sport, 'headpointing' is more or less the defacto style, and falling on a regular basis, is part of that.

As someone born and bred on trad, and only getting into sport over the last 3 years because of living in France, it did take me a while to forget my trad programming and embrace the sport approach. It's something that despite giving it a determined effort, I've still not been that successful at. Headpointing just doesn't give me the buzz that onsighting does - probably down to a low boredom threshold - and at my age, my best climbing is behind me, so whether sport climbing has led to an improvement in my trad climbing could be academic.

However, I still maintain, that being good on trad is as much about the head, as it is about technical ability, and physical prowess.

But if you have a good trad head, and then combine it with the sustained physicality of sport, then I really can see a combination of the two creating huge improvements to a climbers performance on trad.

In reply to Goucho:

I can't disagree with any of that. It's the trad mindset that keeps people safe but at the same time limits their performance. The trick is to be able to go into sport mode and flip back into trad mode as needed and pretty much instantaneously

In reply to john arran:


My trad climbing has come on no end since I've been going regularly to an indoor bouldering centre. But there are good and bad ones of those, and to get the benefit, you need to be near one that has lots of routes and good and consistent route-setting. It also helps if it's somewhere you can get to at times when you're not likely to be going outdoors, like midweek maybe.

In reply to buzby78:

It's probably worth noting the difference in dates between the achievements...

In reply to buzby78:

hi buz
i wasnt refering to mountain e4s just e4 in general and with 60% succsess rate i picked routes that were safe ish i totally commited and falling wasnt a issue.

In reply to AJM:


All dates are hidden when I tried to look, what's worth noting?

In reply to buzby78:

Well, the 9a was several years after regular trad climbing stopped. When E6s were a regular achievement, the sport grades were significantly lower...

In reply to d conacher:


I guess it also depends on what E4's you've tried compared to the 7c's and what style you did them in?

Routes can vary so much depending on what your good at, horses for courses at the end of the day.

Catch up next time you're down at Ratho!

In reply to AJM:


Trad climbing must of been holding him back then?

In reply to andrewmcleod:
That's presumably because you aren't trying hard enough on trad...

In reply to mav:
You've lost me there, assume it was a joke... I'd say a lot of trad routes in popular areas are a lot more 'clogged up' than sport routes. Even if sport routes were 'clogged up' (which they generally aren't), that's not why most people trad climb!

In reply to Steve nevers:
I'm no statistician but when you've got that number of logs, surely it's saying something statistically valid...

In reply to Misha:

Of course it's a joke. The use of the stats was awful, I thought I would do something equally silly.

In reply to UKC Articles:

I'm a recent climber (18 months) and at the local indoor wall was where I built up my skill, knowledge and experience. To a point

I'm leading around 6a indoors, so not super athlete..but then I'm not aiming for that.

But I also understood that outdoors was where the real fun is.

I climb because I love it, but at the same time I appreciate it has its risks.

The problem with trad is it tends to be a riskier exercise in my eyes. Climbing (for me) tough routes for examples E1 outdoors whilst trying to place secure gear, clip in quickdraws and clip in rope, I'm losing vital seconds while my arm may be pumping out. -it can be the difference between moving and finding a rest point or falling off onto potentially hastily added gear - which i find adds further failure potential.

Thats where I feel the fear sets in, and who climbs to be scared?

Now sport climbing is for me, taking the indoors outdoors, and is a happy medium of the trad and indoor climbing. But without that gear fear risk you are likely to push a bit harder.

But the point about fear of falling -that is such a significant psychological battle -one which is somewhat simplified in the trust that the bolts you are clipping into at the wall (indoor or sport) are better than any gear you place.

Now i expect there will be a slew of climbers telling me that well placed own gear is better than a 3rd party installed bolt - but thats what is great about climbing. Its about the individuality.

Climbing with some real experienced people (20-40 years experience) -the answer they give me when i ask why only climb upto HVS outdoors?

"We climb to enjoy it - not to kill ourselves."

That is a good mantra and one why a lot of them are still climbing in their sixties.

I like the workout environment of indoor
I recently discovered sport outdoor and enjoy that freedom while pushing grades
I like the real freedom offered by trad.

In reply to UKC Articles:

Who said you are not supposed to push your limits and risk a fall on trad gear?

In reply to buzby78:




I'm not sure why you'd say mountain routes are more difficult than single pitch? Walking to the base of the crag is hardly difficult, so it must be to do with the routes themselves but it's certainly something I've never found to be the case. Folk don't tend to ATTEMPT mountain routes so often if the grade is near their limit, but this is due to not wanting to have to retreat, lose gear and possibly waste the day (a failure on a single pitch route is less inconvenient) rather than the routes actually being harder.

Any 7a climber should be capable of E4, let alone 7b/c!

In reply to buzby78:


On the contrary, I imagine his trad grade has dropped since then, so NOT trad climbing has held him back.

In reply to GrahamD:

Well said.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

For the same reason that UKC feels that a 9a+ single pitch climber climbing an 8b multi pitch is newsworthy perhaps? (http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=69856)

In reply to Michael Gordon:


True, good point...

In reply to Kafoozalem:


Apart from a very few exceptions (eg. Right Wall?) probably not. 6c+ is nowhere near E5 it's E3. To onsight a proper E5 you need to be onsighting about 7a+ or even 7b in some cases (eg. Helmut Schmitt at Stoney is 7b).

In reply to UKC Articles:

Interesting article and a bold subject to bring up on here.

I'd say that the real difference between trad and sport grades is even greater than the UKC database HS/6a+ suggests. That's because sport climbers tend to do several routes, often the bulk of their ticks, as mere warm up routes. And when it comes to the routes they're actually interested in they often take more than a day, if they succeed at all.

The other thing the statistic doesn't reveal is that it could never really be any other way because all of the easier routes are trad routes in this country. Most sport climbing is on limestone which straight away is harder. If the the stats were between limestone and non-limestone ascents I'm guessing the grade difference would be pretty similar. Even at Pembroke there is little good climbing below HVS (5+/6a).

I have friends who prefer sport to trad but end up almost forced into doing more trad simply because the grade range extends downwards more. So whilst I agree with the idea that mixing up styles could definitely improve one's climbing I think one problem is that because sport climbing is quite limited in this country it's not necessarily so easy to do, especially in the lower grades. To me it seems like you need to get to around E4 or 5 first before making the progression into sport climbing (unless you live near Portland). The other way into it is via indoor walls which are a great place to learn and get fit and strong enough to tackle outdoor sport climbs.

But I think the grade range of sport will always keep it to a minority in this country which, from someone who definitely prefers sport, I think is a great shame.

In reply to SChriscoli:
A few points.

Work up through the trad grades steadily (combined with some sport) to get experience and eventually you might find that E1 isn't that hard after all.

There are lots of well protected trad routes and trad gear is often as good as a bolt - medium to large nut or cam securely placed.

Trad isn't for everyone but I'd encourage people to stick with it and see if they get the hang of it because the rewards are fantastic.

In reply to stp:


Plenty of other non-Portland places these days, thanks to Mr Gibson more than anyone else I guess! But there is lower graded sport climbing now from the North of Scotland southward, and the easier sports routes seem popular even when they aren't terribly good.

In reply to TobyA:


Totally agree. On most British low to mid grade trad climbs you can either place gear above your head pretty much wherever you feel like it, or are on a slab where you can stand around figuring out what to do indefinitely. When I first tried sport climbing, having the bolt below my feet whilst getting pumped was terrifying.

In reply to stp:


That's way OTT. I'd say most E2 climbers should be able to redpoint a 7a if they can be bothered, which generally where the popular sport climbing starts in the Peak and Yorkshire. I generally find someone redpointing in the low 7s tends to climb about E3; and often "progressing" from sport into trad.


This is surely the main way into sport climbing, so really, while the lower grade sport climbing in the UK is generally crap (in the Peak at least, but in Portland and N Wales less so) I don't think there's a barrier to stop people getting into sport at all. It's just that the better easy stuff is trad since we're not a nation of juggy limestone and indiscriminate bolting, and it's more appealing for many climbers. That said, just look at the popularity of say Horseshoe Quarry!


I think that's really strange. Sport climbing doesn't really start until the 7s - the whole game of pre-practiced, high standard climbing can only take place on hard routes. If you're onsighting easier routes, surely trad is a thousand times more engaging and rewarding? There's a good reason we only stick bolts in blank, steep limestone and keep pretty much everything else trad - because that's how we get the best value from the resource.

If the resource was different, if we had oodles of solid, compact limestone at every angle and with holds of every size and shape then of course we'd have great crags for bolted 5s and 6s, and a climbing scene more similar to Europe with higher average grades - but we just don't have that resource. What we have instead is an amazing, varied geology with a unique and rich trad climbing culture. How that can be a 'shame' I can't understand!

In reply to AlanLittle:

And even on the steep the ones you can normally plug gear in high as long as it's a crack. I did Little Unconquerable at Stanage yesterday, and although it was good battle for me it wasn't really very scary. With a selection of big cams I don't think my harness ever got much higher than the last runner before I plugged in the next one. I did a 6a at Horseshoe last weekend where you actually had to do some "moves" (for a punter like me at least) with your feet above the bolt before you could clip the next one. It wasn't as steep as Little Unconq though, so I suppose the fall would be more of a clatter which always adds to my nerves.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I know you must know Jon, but it's maybe worth noting that there is plenty of sport climbing around the world and even in other parts of the UK that ISN'T on limestone. I guess for most English climbers local sport will be limestone and most folk who go on a sport climbing holiday in France or Spain will go to limestone crags BUT I've done lots of easier sport climbing on granite (in the Nordics) and some on sandstone (Australia), and of course slate in Wales. The Scots seem to have been wacking bolts into a variety of different rock types over the last decade too (what is the conglomerate stuff up near Inverness for example?).

In reply to TobyA:


True. But you get huge quantities of steep, clean limestone covering entire regions (with great weather) which is what nurtures the sport climbing culture you have in Europe but not here.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Or alternatively:


My Aussie friend used to tell us how easy Blue Mountain sandstone was to drill as well - he used to claim that he would be able to well bolt a 30 mtr route including lower off with one battery on his drill that seemed to make about 3 holes on Finnish granite before dying!

In reply to UKC Articles:

The article is hardly original in its thinking, and it should be self-evident that anything which helps you to develop strength and technique will help your climbing. Since these are pretty much what sport climbing is about, it stands to reason that doing sport will benefit your trad climbing in these areas. No real argument there.

However there is much more to trad climbing than just strength and technique. It is a much broader discipline, and the rewards come not only from achieving a certain level of difficulty but from these other elements. It is because of this that it is possible to find a trad climb thoroughly enjoyable even though it is well within your grade.

As one who is firmly in the punter grades at both disciplines, I find the problem with both sport and bouldering is that it takes a great deal of work and effort to get started even the lowly grades, and that when achieved these often aren't much cop, whereas a great day can be had on trad even if you aren't climbing at your limit.

In reply to buzby78:


I understand what you're saying there but for your more normal climber (VS, E1, E3 etc) the mountain routes are no more difficult than the single pitch ones. In my experience anyway.

In reply to Michael Gordon:


Walk-in could be 1hr uphill and will take it out of you; need to carry more water. The route may well be oriented so that you must carry spare clothes to cover heat/cold; more to carry. You will be away from base for longer; food and water to carry. An alpine start would deprive you of a full night's sleep.

In all (longer) multi-pitch routes will be more demanding because you are tired, thirsty, col, hot, hungry and carrying more weight. I would normally expect to drop 7a --> 6c, at least in onsight expectations.

In reply to stp:


Surely easy bolted routes in this country are no harder than easy bolted routes in Spain and France ? After all the majority of their clomping away from the mountains is also limestone

In reply to LeeWood:

Surely by the time you've geared up you've recovered from your walk? The second will be carrying the food, water etc on the actual climbing (so the leader won't be carrying any more than usual).

In reply to Jon Stewart:


To climb E2 you only need to do 5c, in some cases only 5b moves. Most 7a's have at least some 6a moves on them so you're going to need to be stronger for a start. I suppose if you're an E2 climber who never falls off, onsights everything, and then go onto a projecting 7a, perhaps over several days, then quite possibly. But I was thinking in terms of doing both routes in a similar amount of time eg. both onsight. Grade tables usually equate E4 with 7a which I've always found to be about right.

I'd say that the E2 climber could also climb E4 were they to spend more time and attempts trying it.



Well 'hard' is a relative term, relative to the ability of the climber. What's hard for one climber maybe no more than a warm up for another. But I suppose spending more time on a route usually implies going climbing more often which means you'll probably soon progress into the 7s anyway.

In reply to GrahamD:

I just meant the historical development here has meant there are not that many easy sport climbs, and even fewer high quality, low grade sport climbs compared to the masses of very high quality trad climbing.

In reply to stp:
I'm coming from the angle that 'trad' = onsight and 'sport' = redpoint. Most E2 climbers don't want to limit themselves to safe but hard single pitch up-routes they can't onsight, falling off and trying again in order to climb an E4 (and say woo, I've climbed an E4 by beating it into submission). Lots of trad routes aren't really suitable places for falling off: they traverse over sea caves, they wander off round corners where your belayer doesn't know what's going on, they have cruxes above gear that isn't 100%, etc. So yes, an E2 climber could get up a certain sub-category of E4s in a headpoint or ground-up style if they wanted to, but most don't want to.

To lots of us "ground-up" is just a nice way of saying "yeah, ok, I couldn't do it, but at least I went back to the ground for a rest instead of sitting on the gear in order to regain a bit of pride/dignity".

In reply to Misha:

If I push myself any harder on trad (except routes with a well-protected single crux) my gear placements start to get a bit desperate and sub-par, just when it gets to the point where I might actually fall off. I know I shouldn't but the temptation to wiggle in dubious overhead gear when I should just whack in a solid piece in front of me and get on with it.

The problem is that I'm not trying hard enough at sport (or indoor) - I need to learn to fall.

I don't need to fall off on trad (at HVS level, which is only a grade or maybe two below my onsight sport grade) and I'm happy not testing my trad ability (not just gear placements) just yet - I remember the recent thread about someone ripping 4 pieces of gear, including several that should have been bomber, due to a subtle rope lift issue...

I should fall off on sport/indoor (but fail to do so, instead either bailing or not trying routes I can probably do). I therefore find sport/indoor 'harder' (scarier).

In reply to Jon Stewart:
Well said!

In reply to andy farnell:

You do realise that your name is actually at the top of your message and you don't have to sign off every message

In reply to UKC Articles:

I am happy that my 35+ year climbing career has been about more than grades, finger strength, flexibility and the ability to string difficult moves together. Places, people, rock texture, views, fear, elation, weather and every other emotion. Trad gives me that, mountaineering, bouldering too, I can enjoy sport too, although I can only remember one route out of the hundreds I've done. All climbing is great, some gives me more. I'm happy as long as I still have the choice

In reply to UKC Articles:

Its a personal choice, but for me its trad. its the true test of climbing.

ive climbed hundreds of sport routes and hundreds of trad routes, i can remember most of the significant trad routes i have done, in contracts, i cant remember any of the sport routes ive done, even the ones ive had to red point etc.

trad trad trad

In reply to duncandarnell:


Yes - think of all the bits and bytes you're wasting by typing in those extra characters!
Tsk, tsk, tsk....

In reply to Somerville:


The article seems to be about improving your climbing, and ultimately your trad climbing.

In reply to Somerville:



Yes, but for many people trad can be at its best when we are pushing ourselves both psychologically and physically. Harder routes tend to have more aesthetically pleasing moves and positions on them.

If that is the case then the articles provides pointers as to how combining sport, bouldering and trad can give one access to the harder trad experience.

In reply to Postmanpat:

The article is spot on IMO other than to those of us who have known and practised this for sometime and then it's a case of "stating the bl**ding obvious" but that is not to detract from the content or it's value. I agree, in the main, with people who say sport routes are not as memorable as trad but I think Kalymnos is an exception to that rule. Some of the best routes I have done, EVER, are on Kalymnos. It manages to have routes that follow lines and features, get you into incredible positions (even on easy stuff) and the rock is good quality offering magnificent views and reliable weather. Indeed my two favourite locations at the moment are Kalymnos and Morocco, two significantly contrasting venues which could not be more different.

Al

In reply to Somerville:

For me I remember the routes that take great lines, that I was significantly pushed on, and that have a history or reputation. Whether those are sport routes or trad is really inconsequential to these factors.

In reply to UKC Articles:
Thinking about it, the problem with trad is that if you 'get it', it's just so amazing and absorbing that you don't really want to do anything else. I'm sure it's the same with other forms of climbing but the thing with trad is that to get better at it within a reasonable timescale you need to do some sport and bouldering. So the very thing that's so brilliant about it ends up holding you back. Of course it's possible to progress with minimal sport and bouldering simply by doing a lot of trad and being willing to push it but the pace of progress is slower. Then again, with trad it isn't all about the grade as there are so many brilliant routes to do at all grades.

In reply to stp:

I know some sport routes do take great lines but I'm often surprised at a climber crediting a route with 'a great line' when it just seems to be a steep bit of limestone like any other!

In reply to Misha:


I think you could change the word 'trad' for any other form of climbing.



Again I'd say that's true of all forms of climbing for most climbers.

In reply to Postmanpat:

I think nearly all climbing is relative to ability. If you are good enough to access a reasonable range of routes there is no aesthtic or movement difference if you are pushing yourself. I've had this solo on mountain diffs to onsighting E2.