UKC

Mo Farrah part 2

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 Rampikino 30 Jul 2015
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/athletics/33723197

I'm looking forward to a whole bunch of users coming on this thread to withdraw their various insinuations, accusations and unfounded gossip, that they aired so freely on the earlier thread.
1
 Indy 30 Jul 2015
In reply to Rampikino:

Proves absolutely nothing.
OP Rampikino 30 Jul 2015
In reply to Indy:

And I suspect that, in your case as well as others, nothing will ever be good enough.

But then perhaps you can prove the alternative? Got anything? Or do you just repeat internet drivel?
1
 Indy 30 Jul 2015
In reply to Rampikino:

A reasonable reason to account for 2 successive missed drugs tests would go some way to dispelling the whispers.... "I didn't hear the door bell" FFS!

BTW didn't the UCI back Armstrong to the hilt?
OP Rampikino 30 Jul 2015
In reply to Indy:

That's it? That's all? That's the sum total?

Go get a rope and a restless lynch mob then.

Oh, you already did.
1
 The New NickB 30 Jul 2015
In reply to Rampikino:

As you say, near impossible to prove a negative. With no failed tests and no direct accusations against Farah, the outcome is hardly surprising. Got to admit though I am concerned about the very real accusations against Salazar and Farah's connection to him.

Whilst I think Farah is clean, eternal vigilance is required, unfortunately we have to be at least a little suspicious of everybody.
1
OP Rampikino 30 Jul 2015
In reply to The New NickB:

> Whilst I think Farah is clean, eternal vigilance is required, unfortunately we have to be at least a little suspicious of everybody.

This line feels about as reasonable and balanced as could possibly be hoped for.
2
 planetmarshall 30 Jul 2015
In reply to Rampikino:

> And I suspect that, in your case as well as others, nothing will ever be good enough.

Seems you've already come to your own conclusion then.

It's probably true to say that "nothing will ever be good enough", because there isn't really any way Farrah, or any other athlete, can prove that they're clean. We already know that the tests themselves are inadequate.

One thing we do know for sure is that Salazar's activities are deeply suspicious, and I would have expected Farrah to give him a wide berth, and what's more for UKA to insist that he does so.

1
 tony 30 Jul 2015
In reply to Rampikino:

Why can't people spell his f*cking name right?
1
 tony 30 Jul 2015
In reply to Indy:

> A reasonable reason to account for 2 successive missed drugs tests would go some way to dispelling the whispers.... "I didn't hear the door bell" FFS!

In his time, Farah has taken well over 120 drugs test, all negative.
2
 tony 30 Jul 2015
In reply to planetmarshall:


Why can't people spell his f*cking name right?
1
 Indy 30 Jul 2015
In reply to tony:

> In his time, Farah has taken well over 120 drugs test, all negative.

I'll raise you X hundreds that Armstrong passed.
 Chris Harris 30 Jul 2015
In reply to tony:

> Why can't people spell his f*cking name right?

Quite.

"Mohamed" isn't that hard to spell is it?
Moorside Mo 30 Jul 2015
In reply to Chris Harris:

> Quite.

> "Mohamed" isn't that hard to spell is it?

It has multiple spellings, Farah on the other hand, doesn't!
Moorside Mo 30 Jul 2015
In reply to Indy:

> I'll raise you X hundreds that Armstrong passed.

I'll raise you the ones he failed!
 planetmarshall 30 Jul 2015
In reply to tony:

I thought we were taking about Farrah Fawcett.
 Chris Harris 30 Jul 2015
In reply to planetmarshall:

> I thought we were taking about Farrah Fawcett.

Definitely "Performance enhancing"....
 Indy 30 Jul 2015
In reply to Moorside Mo:

> I'll raise you the ones he failed!

but not at he time, which is crucial.
Moorside Mo 30 Jul 2015
In reply to Indy:

> but not at he time, which is crucial.

Except that he did fail them at the time, at least four times during the 1999 Tour and also in 2001. The 1999 tests found cortisol and were retested in 2005 and found EPO, Armstrong of course won the Tour in 2005 and raced it again in 2009, finishing 3rd. He very much failed drug tests at the time.
 Roadrunner5 30 Jul 2015
In reply to Rampikino:
Very odd post..

For a start few said he was doping, illegally, most think Salazar takes supplementation right to the limit.. Whether that's immoral or unethical is your own personal call. Very few will be chemically totally clean.

But you can illegally dope and pass all the tests. It's why people still dope despite testing.

My own view is I'm not convinced about Salazar, I still want to know more about the thyroid medications.

I think Mo Fara should leave NOP now.

UKA have had some questionable selections.. Vernons none selection could rumble on and cause bad blood and you can understand anger at GB athletes who don't live here full time, nor come from Britain. I think it's great people can pick nationality in residence, I did, but he could live back in the UK, inspire local kids and also pay taxes here. Hes got the flexibility to do that.
Post edited at 18:10
 The New NickB 30 Jul 2015
In reply to Roadrunner5:

Use of Thyroxin and similar drugs seems quite widespread, but according to the rules it isn't banned.
 Roadrunner5 30 Jul 2015
In reply to The New NickB:

No it's not, but we don't really understand the advantages it gives. Blood doping was legal for years.
 wbo 30 Jul 2015
In reply to tony:
Because facts are irrelevant to this


Vernons none selection could rumble on and cause bad blood and you can understand anger at GB athletes who don't live here full time, nor come from Britain. I think it's great people can pick nationality in residence, I did, but he could live back in the UK, inspire local kids and also pay taxes here.
Non selection has always caused immense amounts of whining. There are always arguments if we should/shouldn't send people who are not going to get medals or not. Coe, Passey, and number of marathon teams come to mind, as does the distance runner who was a medal candidate but didn't get selected as he was considered to stupid to get it right.
He'll inspire more people winning stuff than going back to Teddington , working in the sweatshop and sleeping all the time.
Post edited at 20:25
 Roadrunner5 30 Jul 2015
In reply to wbo:

Do you think he does?

I'm not sure anymore? There's quite a distance. London is sadly widely regarded to have been a failure in the legacy it leaves, simple success doesn't seem to inspire.

I get the feeling the likes of Ennis-Hill inspire more because they remained local, like the Brownlees who have (or did I'm not sure currently) shunned typical hot weather training venues to do the running and biking around Ilkley..

As a person he comes across well and you never hear a bad word about him from the physios/teams who work with him who can be a great source of bitching and gossip...

As an aside, I think Vernon should have gone, he's performed in big championships and had shown consistent improvements with a PR at 10k this year.
 The New NickB 30 Jul 2015
In reply to Roadrunner5:

We should be sending the biggest team we can of people who meet the qualifying standard. Vernon should certainly go. It was a disgrace when we didn't send a marathon team to the Europeans, the mad thing about that was, we could have medaled in the team competition.
1
In reply to tony:

> In his time, Farah has taken well over 120 drugs test, all negative.

Sounds like the Lance Armstrong defence or was that the point...
Moorside Mo 31 Jul 2015
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

> Sounds like the Lance Armstrong defence or was that the point...

The distinction between the Armstrong case and this case is that for Armstrong it wasn't true, he both exaggerated the number of tests he had taken and covered up, with team and UCI help, the ones he failed.

Would UKA, UK Anti Doping, WADA and Nike Oregon Project cover up failed tests? There is a question mark about the last of these, but I struggle to believe there is a wider conspiracy.
1
 tony 31 Jul 2015
In reply to Roadrunner5:
> I think Mo Fara should leave NOP now.

Why can't people spell his f*cking name right!

> UKA have had some questionable selections.. Vernons none selection could rumble on and cause bad blood

If Andy Vernon wanted to be selected, perhaps he should have put as much effort into achieving the qualifying times as he seems to put into having pointless Twitter spats with Farah and UKA.
1
 The New NickB 31 Jul 2015
In reply to tony:
> If Andy Vernon wanted to be selected, perhaps he should have put as much effort into achieving the qualifying times as he seems to put into having pointless Twitter spats with Farah and UKA.

The qualifying time is 27:45, Vernon has run 27:42 this year.

In fact he had the qualifying time before Farah.
Post edited at 08:54
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 planetmarshall 31 Jul 2015
In reply to Moorside Mo:

> The distinction between the Armstrong case and this case is that for Armstrong it wasn't true, he both exaggerated the number of tests he had taken and covered up, with team and UCI help, the ones he failed.

However this line of argument only really holds if we believe that an athlete with no failed tests is definitely clean. It's certainly evidence in their favour in the absence of anything else - however in Fara's case, we have his connection to Salazar and his missed tests ( and his improvement in performance ) which inevitably are going to raise questions.

Moorside Mo 31 Jul 2015
In reply to planetmarshall:

> However this line of argument only really holds if we believe that an athlete with no failed tests is definitely clean. It's certainly evidence in their favour in the absence of anything else - however in Fara's case, we have his connection to Salazar and his missed tests ( and his improvement in performance ) which inevitably are going to raise questions.

No, the intention isn't to prove the negative, I can't say he is clean for certain. I can be much more sure that he has been tested a lot and hasn't failed a test. Whilst Armstrong claimed that to be the case, we know it wasn't true. I was primarily dispelling the Armstrong comparison.
 tony 31 Jul 2015
In reply to The New NickB:

> The qualifying time is 27:45, Vernon has run 27:42 this year.

> In fact he had the qualifying time before Farah.

As defending champion, Farah doesn't need to get the qualifying time. Vernon has managed the qualifying time once, ever. I really don't think he performs at a level where it's worth sending him to Beijing - it's not as if he'd get anywhere near a podium position.
 tony 31 Jul 2015
In reply to planetmarshall:

> However this line of argument only really holds if we believe that an athlete with no failed tests is definitely clean. It's certainly evidence in their favour in the absence of anything else - however in Fara's case, we have his connection to Salazar and his missed tests ( and his improvement in performance ) which inevitably are going to raise questions.

In fact, if you look at Farah's performances, his 5k and 10k pbs date back to 2011. His 5k season's best times got slightly slower on the years 2012-2014 - which includes the Olympics and the 2013 World Champs, and similarly, his 10k times got slower in the same period.
 The New NickB 31 Jul 2015
In reply to tony:

> Vernon has managed the qualifying time once, ever. I really don't think he performs at a level where it's worth sending him to Beijing - it's not as if he'd get anywhere near a podium position.

The fact that he ran that time in May this year shows that he is improving. The European Silver also shows he is a championship performer. It's not all about podiums, it's about athlete development, Farah didn't podium at a global until 2011. If it was all about podium places, for a 10 year period the world would have left the 10,000m to the Kenyans and Ethiopians.

You said Vernon should have concentrated on the qualifying standard, he clearly did.

Regardless of whether Farah had to run the standard, until Eugene at the end of May, he hadn't run the standard since 2013.
1
 The New NickB 31 Jul 2015
In reply to tony:

> In fact, if you look at Farah's performances, his 5k and 10k pbs date back to 2011. His 5k season's best times got slightly slower on the years 2012-2014 - which includes the Olympics and the 2013 World Champs, and similarly, his 10k times got slower in the same period.

Unfortunately for that narrative, the missed tests took place in 2010 and early 2011, during that period of improvement.
1
 tony 31 Jul 2015
In reply to The New NickB:

> The fact that he ran that time in May this year shows that he is improving. The European Silver also shows he is a championship performer.

So what does the 6th at the Commonwealth Games last year show? And the European times were really slow - 14.09 for 3rd place in the 5k, 28.06 in the 10k.

I'm not saying he's not a decent runner - having watched him slog away at the Edinburgh cross-country a couple of years I've no doubt he's capable.
 tony 31 Jul 2015
In reply to The New NickB:

> Unfortunately for that narrative, the missed tests took place in 2010 and early 2011, during that period of improvement.

The 2010 was definitely before he joined Salazar, and I don't know about the timing of the 2011 one.
 The New NickB 31 Jul 2015
In reply to tony:

> And the European times were really slow - 14.09 for 3rd place in the 5k, 28.06 in the 10k.

Tactical races, as championship races invariably are, he beat runners with faster times than him. Farah has won 5 successive global titles at 5/10,000m, every time he has lined up against runners with better times for those distances.

> I'm not saying he's not a decent runner - having watched him slog away at the Edinburgh cross-country a couple of years I've no doubt he's capable.

A decent runner, with a World Championship qualifying time and potential to improve. He should go.
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 The New NickB 31 Jul 2015
In reply to tony:

> The 2010 was definitely before he joined Salazar, and I don't know about the timing of the 2011 one.

February. He ran both the sub 13 5,000 and 26:46 10,000 in June.
2
 tony 31 Jul 2015
In reply to The New NickB:

> February. He ran both the sub 13 5,000 and 26:46 10,000 in June.

Was he with Salazar in February?

Or, according to those who believe he's been doping, he doped for 4 months, did pbs and hasn't run as fast since. Which doesn't sound like a very successful regime.
In reply to Moorside Mo:

> The distinction between the Armstrong case and this case is that for Armstrong it wasn't true, he both exaggerated the number of tests he had taken and covered up, with team and UCI help, the ones he failed.

> Would UKA, UK Anti Doping, WADA and Nike Oregon Project cover up failed tests? There is a question mark about the last of these, but I struggle to believe there is a wider conspiracy.

But it became a mantra for him. Also we know the tests can be fooled or ducked so it is a phrase best avoided.
 DancingOnRock 31 Jul 2015
In reply to The New NickB:

> Use of Thyroxin and similar drugs seems quite widespread, but according to the rules it isn't banned.

They're banned if you don't have a medical reason for taking it.

Salazar was allegedly getting athletes to have blood tests over and again until they showed 'low' Thyroid function. There is still some question over how long distance training affects the levels of thyroxine.

I take it for an underactive thyroid.

The question is 'What is a normal level for any particular individual'

Dr Jack Daniels questions why we only go for blood tests when we feel ill. We should also go regularly when we're perfectly healthy in order to establish what our own individual normal levels are.

That would certainly flag up any anomalies and areas to investigate further.
 Chris the Tall 31 Jul 2015
In reply to Rampikino:

Going back to the topic:

UKA may have found no evidence against Farah, but as yet we don't know whether they have investigated and cleared Salazar, who is the subject of most of the "insinuations, accusations and unfounded gossip". Can he explain why he lied about being Mary Decker's coach when she was busted - more to the point was he involved in her doping ?

I can understand why TUEs have to remain anonymous, but surely as a team or group the figures could be released. How many of the Oregon Project athletes have TUEs for thyroid problems would be a very interesting statistic.
 The New NickB 31 Jul 2015
In reply to tony:

> Was he with Salazar in February?

I don't think he was fully integrated in to Nike Oregon Project, but he was working with Salazar.

> Or, according to those who believe he's been doping, he doped for 4 months, did pbs and hasn't run as fast since. Which doesn't sound like a very successful regime.

I don't think he doped, but the suggestion would be that doped through the 2010/2011 winter to run those times in spring and summer 2011. The thing is Farah was never going to beat the Kenyans and Ethiopians by time trialling, the focus probably changed under Salazar to running a 1500m pace last 400-600m on the back of fast, but not WR pace 9.5k.
2
 Mike Highbury 31 Jul 2015
In reply to Chris the Tall:
> UKA may have found no evidence against Farah, but as yet we don't know whether they have investigated and cleared Salazar, who is the subject of most of the "insinuations, accusations and unfounded gossip". Can he explain why he lied about being Mary Decker's coach when she was busted - more to the point was he involved in her doping ?

Resources, imagination and energy suggests that one should leave such investigations to the US agencies, no?
 Chris the Tall 31 Jul 2015
In reply to Mike Highbury:

Agree, but Farah won't be above suspicion whilst his coach is under it.
 kipper12 31 Jul 2015
In reply to DancingOnRock:
> (In reply to The New NickB)
>
> [...]
>
> >
> The question is 'What is a normal level for any particular individual'
>
Isn't this what a biometric passport is meant to do, so baselines can be established and variations noted and followed up if necessary.

 kipper12 31 Jul 2015
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:
> (In reply to Moorside Mo)
>
Also we know the tests can be fooled or ducked so it is a phrase best avoided.

To a degree true, which is why samples are retained for a good fwe years to allow for adviances in analytical methods. For example, one of the recent testosterone positives was caught when they looked closely at the carbon isotope ratios in blod testosterone, as synehttic and endogenous sources have differing carbon isotope ratios.

 bowls 31 Jul 2015
In reply to The New NickB:

Esp over 5000m Farah hasn't achieved his time potential. I can't remember a race where he has really pushed t he pace from the gun. Would live to see what he could run. Maybe in the world champs someone will actually force the pace from the gun and put him under. I don't understand the Kenyans and Ethiopeans ineptitude to do this. Apart from Jeilan (sp?) no one has beaten him in a global title race since 2011
 The New NickB 31 Jul 2015
In reply to bowls:
No one has beaten him at a global since 2011 full stop. He was out sprinted in the 10,000m, then won the 5,000, the double at the Olympics and double at the Worlds in 2013.

His current bests for 5,000 and 10,000 are about 1.5% slower that the WR. For the half marathon it is 2.5% and marathon 5%. Interestingly for the 1,500m it is about 1%.

Note: these figures are based on my memory and quick mental arithmetic.
Post edited at 13:53
1
 bowls 31 Jul 2015
In reply to The New NickB:
That illustrates my point, the two fast 1500s he's run have been eye balls out from the gun. Even his 10000m British record he was in a race for, -hence I still think he could go quicker over that distance too.
Post edited at 14:03
 The New NickB 31 Jul 2015
In reply to bowls:

Strikes me that his best distance is probably 3,000m and he may not get faster at the 5,000m or 10,000m. Will be interesting to see if either the Kenyans or the Ethiopians are prepared to really push the pace at the Worlds.
1
 Roadrunner5 31 Jul 2015
In reply to tony:
Haha I did that because it infuriates you so much...

I get Ian or Iain my surname with or without the E.. I don't give a toss tbh..
 Roadrunner5 31 Jul 2015
In reply to bowls:

> Esp over 5000m Farah hasn't achieved his time potential. I can't remember a race where he has really pushed t he pace from the gun. Would live to see what he could run. Maybe in the world champs someone will actually force the pace from the gun and put him under. I don't understand the Kenyans and Ethiopeans ineptitude to do this. Apart from Jeilan (sp?) no one has beaten him in a global title race since 2011

This is what I think.. At the Olympics plenty could have run a lot quicker, it's always a gamble as it's hard to get it right running hard from the off.. But sitting in and waiting for a quick last mile was the perfect race for Farreh..
1
 Roadrunner5 31 Jul 2015
In reply to kipper12:
We don't know how people dope though, but low level EPO, micro doping won't get detected...


1
 The New NickB 31 Jul 2015
In reply to Roadrunner5:

I've got to admit, I find it annoying, it's hardly difficult. Not as bad as people repeatedly spelling Bonington with an extra n on a climbing forum.
2
 Yanis Nayu 31 Jul 2015
In reply to The New NickB:

> I've got to admit, I find it annoying, it's hardly difficult. Not as bad as people repeatedly spelling Bonington with an extra n on a climbing forum.

Boningtonn?
 Roadrunner5 31 Jul 2015
In reply to The New NickB:
Maybe it's because my name is misspelled so much I'm just not bothered anymore..

Over here I'm called Lain loads.. It's like the constantly think I'm spelling Lain with a lower case l..

Anyway I think time will tell with these guys. We freeze so much now that eventually they will test +ve if they are using.. I'd be very surprised if Farah tested positive for anything illegal. Far too much to lose.
Post edited at 17:44
 kipper12 31 Jul 2015
In reply to Roadrunner5:


Maybe not right now, but if micro dosing has had an effect on haematology, which after all is the point of expo, this should be visible in the biometric passport. If doses are so low as to,produce no biologically meaningful increase in red blood cells, what's the point. Apart from a lot of wasted money

If the heamatology is suspicious, but epo can't be detected, who's to,say those samples won't be tagged for a retest when techniques improve.
 Roadrunner5 31 Jul 2015
In reply to kipper12:
Because it's still meaningful performance wise.. They just keep them right at the limits.

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