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Expanding on this week's theme of "blast from the past", tonight's video features another classic film of one of Britain's most influential yet controversial climbers: John Dunne. Another of Sid Perou's quality videos from the 90's, we see John take on The Big Issue E9 6c and Northern Irish testpiece Divided Years E9 6c.Read more
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In reply to UKC News:
A friend of mine has a funny story about talking to him in a climbing centre and not knowing who he was and asking him if he did much climbing.
A friend of mine has a funny story about talking to him in a climbing centre and not knowing who he was and asking him if he did much climbing.
In reply to UKC News:
...and then again, I once saw him turn up at Ilkley quarry and start soloing all over the wall that contains the Napoleon-themed climbs. I've never seen anyone climb more gracefully and effortlessly.
...and then again, I once saw him turn up at Ilkley quarry and start soloing all over the wall that contains the Napoleon-themed climbs. I've never seen anyone climb more gracefully and effortlessly.
In reply to UKC News: Pretty sure it was released later than that...96 or 97 maybe. Not long before 'Hard Grit' I think.
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In reply to Fraser:
It's the first time I've seen it. Absolutely ace. And yes, it's largely the footwork that adds to the grace. Well that and strength and sheer talent! I never had any doubts about his routes. It's a great shame that his legacy is tainted by the doubters. I was speaking to someone (very close to home...) a couple of years back who 'knew' JD's claims were false. Very sad, but I think jealousy as John says is probably at the root of it. Pretty sure it was in the case I mention.
> I still have this on VHS - great footwork!
It's the first time I've seen it. Absolutely ace. And yes, it's largely the footwork that adds to the grace. Well that and strength and sheer talent! I never had any doubts about his routes. It's a great shame that his legacy is tainted by the doubters. I was speaking to someone (very close to home...) a couple of years back who 'knew' JD's claims were false. Very sad, but I think jealousy as John says is probably at the root of it. Pretty sure it was in the case I mention.
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In reply to jon:
Nor me. You just need to watch this video to see what a class act he is.
> ... I never had any doubts about his routes.
Nor me. You just need to watch this video to see what a class act he is.
In reply to jon:
Lovely video.
I suspect the doubters rest on the "Rich Simpson" argument - lots of talent but lacking corroboration and continuous-shot ascent footage. (I'm not a doubter btw).
Unfortunately my stockiness is pies!
> It's the first time I've seen it. Absolutely ace. And yes, it's largely the footwork that adds to the grace. Well that and strength and sheer talent! I never had any doubts about his routes. It's a great shame that his legacy is tainted by the doubters. I was speaking to someone (very close to home...) a couple of years back who 'knew' JD's claims were false. Very sad, but I think jealousy as John says is probably at the root of it. Pretty sure it was in the case I mention.
Lovely video.
I suspect the doubters rest on the "Rich Simpson" argument - lots of talent but lacking corroboration and continuous-shot ascent footage. (I'm not a doubter btw).
Unfortunately my stockiness is pies!
In reply to UKC News:
Great film, and it is a massive shame about the doubters. As Seb Grieve said when he did Parthian- 'If I've done it, John Dunne has definitely done it.'
Seems a shame that Sid Perou never got paid for the film though....
Great film, and it is a massive shame about the doubters. As Seb Grieve said when he did Parthian- 'If I've done it, John Dunne has definitely done it.'
Seems a shame that Sid Perou never got paid for the film though....
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In reply to UKC News:
No back-up on the abseil, no helmet, no padding to protect the rope over the edge, etc. where do I stop. Too many accidents involved with abseiling...think Patey, Holliwell, Gervassutti et al!
No back-up on the abseil, no helmet, no padding to protect the rope over the edge, etc. where do I stop. Too many accidents involved with abseiling...think Patey, Holliwell, Gervassutti et al!
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In reply to UKC News:
Awesome. Saw it 20 years ago. Shame about the top-roping but nevertheless still superb
Awesome. Saw it 20 years ago. Shame about the top-roping but nevertheless still superb
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In reply to UKC News:
Remember seeing this back in the day. I think it came out after '95 too. It has dated as a climbing video but it shows he could climb. The footwork was impressive. As a fellow pie man I have to say 'respect'. The main bit I liked was the interviews- he's totally unapologetic for the controversy and I can why. It used to make mags like 'On The Edge' readable!
Remember seeing this back in the day. I think it came out after '95 too. It has dated as a climbing video but it shows he could climb. The footwork was impressive. As a fellow pie man I have to say 'respect'. The main bit I liked was the interviews- he's totally unapologetic for the controversy and I can why. It used to make mags like 'On The Edge' readable!
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In reply to Owen W-G:
Remember chatting to him once. He basically said "if I lose weight I lose power"
Remember chatting to him once. He basically said "if I lose weight I lose power"
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In reply to Wee Davie:
Pretty sure it was '98. Just watched it again (I used to have it on VHS) and the Sloping Beauty section is stated as being from March '98. He is a cracking climber to watch...as others have said, his footwork (watch him on New Statesman, for instance) is something else.
That said...remember the post mortem after the shipwreck of a flake came off Parthian Shot?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=3828
Big JD is quoted thus:
"When Seb selfishly loaded bags and drop tested the gear that he had pre-placed in the flake, for me that showed a real lack of respect for the route and for the flake, which could have ripped off - leaving a defunct route."
(Turns out Grieve had drop tested using an empty rucksack to check the clearance on a fall, and no more).
Watch the Carmen Picasso bit of 'Big Issue', particularly from around 28:06...where I must be imagining Dunne cheerily drop testing the gear with a bag full of rocks.
Pretty sure it was '98. Just watched it again (I used to have it on VHS) and the Sloping Beauty section is stated as being from March '98. He is a cracking climber to watch...as others have said, his footwork (watch him on New Statesman, for instance) is something else.
That said...remember the post mortem after the shipwreck of a flake came off Parthian Shot?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=3828
Big JD is quoted thus:
"When Seb selfishly loaded bags and drop tested the gear that he had pre-placed in the flake, for me that showed a real lack of respect for the route and for the flake, which could have ripped off - leaving a defunct route."
(Turns out Grieve had drop tested using an empty rucksack to check the clearance on a fall, and no more).
Watch the Carmen Picasso bit of 'Big Issue', particularly from around 28:06...where I must be imagining Dunne cheerily drop testing the gear with a bag full of rocks.
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In reply to ashaughnessy:
Can you tell us it?
> A friend of mine has a funny story about talking to him in a climbing centre and not knowing who he was and asking him if he did much climbing.
Can you tell us it?
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In reply to UKC News:
Does he come across as being brash?
Fantastic climber to watch. Surely deserves to be ranked as one of the stars of climbing?
Does he come across as being brash?
Fantastic climber to watch. Surely deserves to be ranked as one of the stars of climbing?
In reply to UKC News:
I was climbing with John back then, and he was a really chilled bloke. He had sorted his shoulder problems out and was about to see the doubters wrong with his route in Ireland.
The doubters can mumble all they wish, seeing him climb there was no doubt he had done what he he claimed.
I do recall he got car sick, especially in the back of an AMG 180 with my mate skinny Mike driving.......
I was climbing with John back then, and he was a really chilled bloke. He had sorted his shoulder problems out and was about to see the doubters wrong with his route in Ireland.
The doubters can mumble all they wish, seeing him climb there was no doubt he had done what he he claimed.
I do recall he got car sick, especially in the back of an AMG 180 with my mate skinny Mike driving.......
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In reply to UKC News:
A very impressive climber, but in my view even more impressive was his ability to work the media intrigue. I have no direct experience of any of his doubted routes (although I have spoken with many notable climbers who offered heartfelt and credible conviction both ways) but I always was in awe of his ability to maintain the mystery. Almost never was there video footage of a notable first ascent - usually making it look trivial on toprope later. More than enough to convince people that he had the ability but never quite enough to convince the sceptics that he'd actually put his neck on the line and climbed the routes as claimed. I have no doubt we'll never know the truth, and equally I am convinced that the climbing world is better for it !
A very impressive climber, but in my view even more impressive was his ability to work the media intrigue. I have no direct experience of any of his doubted routes (although I have spoken with many notable climbers who offered heartfelt and credible conviction both ways) but I always was in awe of his ability to maintain the mystery. Almost never was there video footage of a notable first ascent - usually making it look trivial on toprope later. More than enough to convince people that he had the ability but never quite enough to convince the sceptics that he'd actually put his neck on the line and climbed the routes as claimed. I have no doubt we'll never know the truth, and equally I am convinced that the climbing world is better for it !
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In reply to UKC News:
The guitar shredding intro is a mile away from those chilled out Bon Iver/Surfjan stevens soundtracks they use on those bouldering vids now. The climbing 'scene' does seem rather hippy compared to those older Yorkshire climbers.
The guitar shredding intro is a mile away from those chilled out Bon Iver/Surfjan stevens soundtracks they use on those bouldering vids now. The climbing 'scene' does seem rather hippy compared to those older Yorkshire climbers.
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In reply to UKC News:
Extremely impressive watching this man climb, really enjoyable video.
Fairly new to climbing and am aware of the whole trad vs sport climbing debate... To bolt or not to bolt... But I thought using a wire brush on rock was frowned upon as well? Pretty sure at 27 minutes in that is what's being used.
Extremely impressive watching this man climb, really enjoyable video.
Fairly new to climbing and am aware of the whole trad vs sport climbing debate... To bolt or not to bolt... But I thought using a wire brush on rock was frowned upon as well? Pretty sure at 27 minutes in that is what's being used.
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In reply to john arran:
Did anyone routinely film top end first ascents in the late 80s and early 90s?
Did anyone routinely film top end first ascents in the late 80s and early 90s?
In reply to Sam Beaton:
That's a good example of the kind of questions that were asked at the time. That and photos, witnesses, conditions, etc. The answers always seemed to further entrench both camps.
John certainly knew that his status as a pro climber was benefitting from the publicity of maintaining an element of doubt in the eyes of some, to stoke the grapevine and magazine furnaces, and I don't think any climber before or since has been as media savvy.
That's a good example of the kind of questions that were asked at the time. That and photos, witnesses, conditions, etc. The answers always seemed to further entrench both camps.
John certainly knew that his status as a pro climber was benefitting from the publicity of maintaining an element of doubt in the eyes of some, to stoke the grapevine and magazine furnaces, and I don't think any climber before or since has been as media savvy.
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In reply to john arran:
Met him when he was doing a 1st ascent on Malham on 1st Jan so it was cold and damp. He was miles above gear and shouting 'if in doubt, run it out', which he did. And just very enthusiastic, chatting afterwards.
Met him when he was doing a 1st ascent on Malham on 1st Jan so it was cold and damp. He was miles above gear and shouting 'if in doubt, run it out', which he did. And just very enthusiastic, chatting afterwards.
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In reply to UKC News:
Thanks for posting that...never seen it efore but i did see john dunne climb a couple of times and as others have said he was a very good climber....he hd inredible chest and shoulder strength which combined with precise footwork made his movement so gracious as he moved through the routes. I always liked that he wasn't part of the sheffield scene and offered something different. That time period was great for rock climbing but was a bit celebrity focused towards the sheffield crowd in magazines such as the edge. John dunne wasn't as 'big' in real life from what i recall of seeing him...compared to how he was described.
Thanks for posting that...never seen it efore but i did see john dunne climb a couple of times and as others have said he was a very good climber....he hd inredible chest and shoulder strength which combined with precise footwork made his movement so gracious as he moved through the routes. I always liked that he wasn't part of the sheffield scene and offered something different. That time period was great for rock climbing but was a bit celebrity focused towards the sheffield crowd in magazines such as the edge. John dunne wasn't as 'big' in real life from what i recall of seeing him...compared to how he was described.
In reply to john arran:
I know the truth , he climbed the routes , when people doubted he had , he just let them think what they liked as he didn't care either way . I used to work with a guy twice the size and weight of Johnny Dawes yet he was twice as nimble , he could do tricks on a bmx at world class level , yet didn't own a bike , but the weirdest of all was watching him do back flips across the car park ! Think John Dunne with a belly on
I know the truth , he climbed the routes , when people doubted he had , he just let them think what they liked as he didn't care either way . I used to work with a guy twice the size and weight of Johnny Dawes yet he was twice as nimble , he could do tricks on a bmx at world class level , yet didn't own a bike , but the weirdest of all was watching him do back flips across the car park ! Think John Dunne with a belly on
In reply to UKC News:
Great movie. Every time I've talked with JD, I've been impressed with how thoughtful and considered he is. And great footwork.
There were some luminaries in the Sheffield Mafia at the time who were definitely having personal difficulty coming to terms with the fact that their time at the top was coming to an end and the new wave was coming in.
Dunne is definitely up there with the best I've ever seen climb, Ron Ben and Jerry.
Great movie. Every time I've talked with JD, I've been impressed with how thoughtful and considered he is. And great footwork.
There were some luminaries in the Sheffield Mafia at the time who were definitely having personal difficulty coming to terms with the fact that their time at the top was coming to an end and the new wave was coming in.
Dunne is definitely up there with the best I've ever seen climb, Ron Ben and Jerry.
In reply to UKC News:
John Dunne gives hope to those of us who are not, in the words of Ian Mcnaught-Davies, "anorexic weirdos".
I climbed with him and his wife Joanna in Orpierre a few years ago, his footwork really is immaculate.
Al
John Dunne gives hope to those of us who are not, in the words of Ian Mcnaught-Davies, "anorexic weirdos".
I climbed with him and his wife Joanna in Orpierre a few years ago, his footwork really is immaculate.
Al
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In reply to Nevis-the-cat:
A pal of mine who was no slouch himself climbed with JD and also had no doubts.
I note that UKC continue their tradition of sniping at him by including the quote from Sid Perou in a prominent position.
> The doubters can mumble all they wish, seeing him climb there was no doubt he had done what he he claimed.
A pal of mine who was no slouch himself climbed with JD and also had no doubts.
I note that UKC continue their tradition of sniping at him by including the quote from Sid Perou in a prominent position.
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In reply to DaveHK:
The Sheffield scene in the 80's and early 90's was very insular. There was a mindset that if they couldn't climb a route, then no one else in the UK could.
Mind you, the same could be said of the Stoney scene in the 70's too.
> A pal of mine who was no slouch himself climbed with JD and also had no doubts.
> I note that UKC continue their tradition of sniping at him by including the quote from Sid Perou in a prominent position.
The Sheffield scene in the 80's and early 90's was very insular. There was a mindset that if they couldn't climb a route, then no one else in the UK could.
Mind you, the same could be said of the Stoney scene in the 70's too.
In reply to UKC News:
What a great film. Bit sad about the controversy which seems to stem from other's jealousy rather than from Dunne himself.
What a great film. Bit sad about the controversy which seems to stem from other's jealousy rather than from Dunne himself.
In reply to UKC News:
I enjoyed that, some good climbing footage and the interviews are good too.
It's a shame Sid was never paid. Is there some way everyone who watches the video on here could send him a few quid? He obviously spent a lot of time on the film and it must have been far more time-consuming to film and edit with the equipment at the time.
I enjoyed that, some good climbing footage and the interviews are good too.
It's a shame Sid was never paid. Is there some way everyone who watches the video on here could send him a few quid? He obviously spent a lot of time on the film and it must have been far more time-consuming to film and edit with the equipment at the time.
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In reply to UKC News:
Loved the film - some great footage. The chat about sloping beauty was v interesting, as was seeing the big fella throw himself around on it. He seriously does not look like a climber.
What does the bit about Sid not being paid mean? Am I to interpret it as meaning "someone (JD?) was meant to pay me but they didn't"? Or "I thought I could make some cash out of a climbing movie but I was wrong". Im curious, don't know background at all and had never heard of this little gem.
Loved the film - some great footage. The chat about sloping beauty was v interesting, as was seeing the big fella throw himself around on it. He seriously does not look like a climber.
What does the bit about Sid not being paid mean? Am I to interpret it as meaning "someone (JD?) was meant to pay me but they didn't"? Or "I thought I could make some cash out of a climbing movie but I was wrong". Im curious, don't know background at all and had never heard of this little gem.
In reply to DaveHK:
No sniping intended Dave - I thought it reflected the time and effort that Sid must have put into the film for not much money, showing that he was both passionate about his work and keen to let John tell his side of the story. I sincerely doubt Sid was expecting much back from it himself - the situation is not too dissimilar 20+ years on!
No sniping intended Dave - I thought it reflected the time and effort that Sid must have put into the film for not much money, showing that he was both passionate about his work and keen to let John tell his side of the story. I sincerely doubt Sid was expecting much back from it himself - the situation is not too dissimilar 20+ years on!
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In reply to UKC News:
I met JD in august 1991 as a visiting climber from mainland central Europe at Ilkley area while bouldering and watched him rehabilitating his both shoulder surgery just few weeks past the cuts, I followed him and his belly in disbelief an could not repeat his one handed pull ups and dynamic moves, I remember him too having ability to make dynamic side and diagonal long reaches from finger tips to finger tips, in general he was very relaxed. Next day I went to his of the time climbing shop in Bradford area. I tried to intrigue him into importing some climbing products from my home country. I still have in my archive his hand written business letter, I could scan it and post it, providing it does not breach personal privacy after so many years and you will understand guys, judging from his very beautiful legible caligraphy that he must be smart, focused,relaxed and reasonably proud interesting person. The deal has not ever come through initial talks though.
I used the opportunity to ask if any one knows a climber, called in my memory John Smith ? from Sheffield area who was ´pushing hard his climbing? possibly making even FA after? and was in his early 20ies at the time of my visit who greatly helped when me we met, we climbed together and gave me ride, we have never met again.
I met JD in august 1991 as a visiting climber from mainland central Europe at Ilkley area while bouldering and watched him rehabilitating his both shoulder surgery just few weeks past the cuts, I followed him and his belly in disbelief an could not repeat his one handed pull ups and dynamic moves, I remember him too having ability to make dynamic side and diagonal long reaches from finger tips to finger tips, in general he was very relaxed. Next day I went to his of the time climbing shop in Bradford area. I tried to intrigue him into importing some climbing products from my home country. I still have in my archive his hand written business letter, I could scan it and post it, providing it does not breach personal privacy after so many years and you will understand guys, judging from his very beautiful legible caligraphy that he must be smart, focused,relaxed and reasonably proud interesting person. The deal has not ever come through initial talks though.
I used the opportunity to ask if any one knows a climber, called in my memory John Smith ? from Sheffield area who was ´pushing hard his climbing? possibly making even FA after? and was in his early 20ies at the time of my visit who greatly helped when me we met, we climbed together and gave me ride, we have never met again.
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In reply to Natalie Berry - UKC:
I'm sure you didn't intend it to sound negative but it's open to that interpretation. As Mutl3y points out, it can be read as 'JD didn't pay Sid Perou for services rendered'.
I'm sure you didn't intend it to sound negative but it's open to that interpretation. As Mutl3y points out, it can be read as 'JD didn't pay Sid Perou for services rendered'.
Post edited at 21:24
In reply to DaveHK:
And that wasn't the case?
> I'm sure you didn't intend it to sound negative but it's open to that interpretation. As Mutl3y points out, it can be read as 'JD didn't pay Sid Perou for services rendered'.
And that wasn't the case?
In reply to Mike Highbury:
It might well be the case but interpreted in that way it would be an odd thing to throw into the preamble to a Friday Night Vid.
It might well be the case but interpreted in that way it would be an odd thing to throw into the preamble to a Friday Night Vid.
Post edited at 21:45
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In reply to UKC News:
Just back from holiday so have just seen this. No idea if there is any sort of an agenda with the comment about Sid not being paid but I can give my side. I wrote the script and did the voiceover for this video and was never paid but I did it on that basis because I was happy to do so and wanted to help John and Sid. I did the voiceover for Hard Grit on the same basis, in that case because I wanted to help Rich and Mark. There are times when getting paid for something isn't the most important part.
Just back from holiday so have just seen this. No idea if there is any sort of an agenda with the comment about Sid not being paid but I can give my side. I wrote the script and did the voiceover for this video and was never paid but I did it on that basis because I was happy to do so and wanted to help John and Sid. I did the voiceover for Hard Grit on the same basis, in that case because I wanted to help Rich and Mark. There are times when getting paid for something isn't the most important part.
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In reply to S11:
Agree totally. Good effort, Ian.
Best wishes,
Mick
> There are times when getting paid for something isn't the most important part.
Agree totally. Good effort, Ian.
Best wishes,
Mick
In reply to UKC News:
The comments about JD's footwork are interesting. Some years ago I was at a climbing wall and JD and another well known and very good climber were on the bouldering wall. The difference was vast: with the boards of the bouldering wall forming an effective echo chamber any fault in technique was obvious. When JD was trying a problem everything was silent, when the other climber was trying the problem it sounded like he was trying to front point his way up it.
The comments about JD's footwork are interesting. Some years ago I was at a climbing wall and JD and another well known and very good climber were on the bouldering wall. The difference was vast: with the boards of the bouldering wall forming an effective echo chamber any fault in technique was obvious. When JD was trying a problem everything was silent, when the other climber was trying the problem it sounded like he was trying to front point his way up it.
In reply to UKC News:
JD is easily one of the best I've ever seen on rock, right up there with Ron and Ben. I used to see him quite a bit at Ilkley, where, since I lived about five minutes away I reckoned I was no slouch myself, but his climbing just blew me away. To sit on top of the quarry and look across as he soloed Welly Crack in total silence, every foot placement absolutely immaculate was both inspiring and depressing. Incredibly delicate and precise for such a big guy. John performing like that scuppered my rather worn out excuse of 'I'm just too big boned to be any better than I am'.
JD is easily one of the best I've ever seen on rock, right up there with Ron and Ben. I used to see him quite a bit at Ilkley, where, since I lived about five minutes away I reckoned I was no slouch myself, but his climbing just blew me away. To sit on top of the quarry and look across as he soloed Welly Crack in total silence, every foot placement absolutely immaculate was both inspiring and depressing. Incredibly delicate and precise for such a big guy. John performing like that scuppered my rather worn out excuse of 'I'm just too big boned to be any better than I am'.
In reply to UKC News:
I remember being at Malham a fair bit at the time John was trying to make the full ascent of the Groove.
His size certainly was not an issue then, he was a "stocky" climber but you never doubted it was well honed strength, not just useless "bulk".
One particular weekend he was dossing in a field barn and got up at stupid o'clock, ran up through Gordale round to the Tarn and down to the catwalk before sitting "meditating" beneath the project. We weren't even out of our pits!
His footwork was incredible, once a foothold was located it was stood on, no adjusting or fidgeting. He had a pair of the Resin Rose shoes with the rubber only on the front half and the rear part was green on one and pink on the other. I remember thinking "if I get those my footwork will be like his".
Disappointingly it wasn't!!
I remember being at Malham a fair bit at the time John was trying to make the full ascent of the Groove.
His size certainly was not an issue then, he was a "stocky" climber but you never doubted it was well honed strength, not just useless "bulk".
One particular weekend he was dossing in a field barn and got up at stupid o'clock, ran up through Gordale round to the Tarn and down to the catwalk before sitting "meditating" beneath the project. We weren't even out of our pits!
His footwork was incredible, once a foothold was located it was stood on, no adjusting or fidgeting. He had a pair of the Resin Rose shoes with the rubber only on the front half and the rear part was green on one and pink on the other. I remember thinking "if I get those my footwork will be like his".
Disappointingly it wasn't!!
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In reply to sheppy:
I had a pair of those - they weren't the Resin Rose though they were made by the same company, OneSport - can't remember what they were called. They were the stiffest boots I've ever worn, like front pointing on ice in b3 boots!
> He had a pair of the Resin Rose shoes with the rubber only on the front half and the rear part was green on one and pink on the other. I remember thinking "if I get those my footwork will be like his".
I had a pair of those - they weren't the Resin Rose though they were made by the same company, OneSport - can't remember what they were called. They were the stiffest boots I've ever worn, like front pointing on ice in b3 boots!
In reply to jon:
I think they were called Magica's (excuse spelling) but it was One Sport being the manufacturer I couldn't remember.
I think at the time I actually believed that they would transform my sloppy feet into honed precision machines 8-)
I think they were called Magica's (excuse spelling) but it was One Sport being the manufacturer I couldn't remember.
I think at the time I actually believed that they would transform my sloppy feet into honed precision machines 8-)
In reply to john arran:
For someone so apparently controversial he seems to be fairly unanimously admired on UKC. Does a controversial climber ever stop being controversial?
For someone so apparently controversial he seems to be fairly unanimously admired on UKC. Does a controversial climber ever stop being controversial?
In reply to planetmarshall:
Almost all of the posts here have attested to his talent and ability. I don't think anybody has ever doubted his ability, so if that is what is being unanimously admired I don't think you'll find many people disagreeing. Some of the people I've talked too though will, I'm sure, never let their first hand experiences be swayed by public opinion which is based on (undoubted) potential.
I would like to reiterate that I don't have any first hand experience either way, but compared to other notable first ascentionists of the day his record of controversy was truly remarkable. This was either a result of him not actually having done some of the routes claimed or him deliberately cultivating a media image in which controversy was an important ingredient, by purposely not obtaining or not releasing info that would remove any doubt. That's what I meant earlier when I talked about him being very 'media savvy'.
Almost all of the posts here have attested to his talent and ability. I don't think anybody has ever doubted his ability, so if that is what is being unanimously admired I don't think you'll find many people disagreeing. Some of the people I've talked too though will, I'm sure, never let their first hand experiences be swayed by public opinion which is based on (undoubted) potential.
I would like to reiterate that I don't have any first hand experience either way, but compared to other notable first ascentionists of the day his record of controversy was truly remarkable. This was either a result of him not actually having done some of the routes claimed or him deliberately cultivating a media image in which controversy was an important ingredient, by purposely not obtaining or not releasing info that would remove any doubt. That's what I meant earlier when I talked about him being very 'media savvy'.
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In reply to john arran:
What do you think of the fact that Divided Years, given E10, was climbed with preplaced runners?
What do you think of the fact that Divided Years, given E10, was climbed with preplaced runners?
In reply to John2:
It's not something that's ever really bothered me. If it was felt necessary and admitted to at the time then I don't see a problem, as it would leave others to improve upon it. I have no idea how it was claimed at the time.
> What do you think of the fact that Divided Years, given E10, was climbed with preplaced runners?
It's not something that's ever really bothered me. If it was felt necessary and admitted to at the time then I don't see a problem, as it would leave others to improve upon it. I have no idea how it was claimed at the time.
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In reply to John2:
A fair few new routes have been done with pre-placed gear. I guess it boils down to personal ethics.
A fair few new routes have been done with pre-placed gear. I guess it boils down to personal ethics.
In reply to John2:
I can't see how a preplaced runner is much different to a preplaced peg - as long as you say so then it's not like you've lied about it is it...
I can't see how a preplaced runner is much different to a preplaced peg - as long as you say so then it's not like you've lied about it is it...
In reply to john arran:
The pre-placed runners (under the roof) were fully described in the mag write-ups at the time of the first ascent. I think Macleod's was the first ascent without them (after Birkett had done the second ascent).
The pre-placed runners (under the roof) were fully described in the mag write-ups at the time of the first ascent. I think Macleod's was the first ascent without them (after Birkett had done the second ascent).
In reply to UKC News:
Great climber, colourful character, major bullshitter and exaggerater, astute business man after few false starts, great story teller, who told a few porkies, including some fuzzy first ascent claims.
A joy to watch climbing, like many have said, incredible footwork and bags of energy.
Top bloke - fair assessment John?
Great climber, colourful character, major bullshitter and exaggerater, astute business man after few false starts, great story teller, who told a few porkies, including some fuzzy first ascent claims.
A joy to watch climbing, like many have said, incredible footwork and bags of energy.
Top bloke - fair assessment John?
4
1
In reply to Michael Ryan:
I enjoyed reading the story of the first ascent of the Great Escape E8 on Arran in Gary Latter's Scottish Rock vol 1 guide. So it goes that Dave MacLeod thought he had bagged the first ascent as there was chalk on the route but it ran out before the top and there was loose rock beyond this point. However MacLeod later discovered that John Dunne had claimed to have made the complete first ascent the day before. Who knows what the truth is!
I enjoyed reading the story of the first ascent of the Great Escape E8 on Arran in Gary Latter's Scottish Rock vol 1 guide. So it goes that Dave MacLeod thought he had bagged the first ascent as there was chalk on the route but it ran out before the top and there was loose rock beyond this point. However MacLeod later discovered that John Dunne had claimed to have made the complete first ascent the day before. Who knows what the truth is!
1
In reply to UKC News:
The issue of credibility was pretty much down to John not living in Sheffield.That was where most of the talent operated from.I did all the moves on Parthian Shot way back in 79,apart from the pocket move,on a 20 minute ab inspection.The route was clearly feasible. John's gruff West Yorks tone didn't go down so well in S Yorks.
The issue of credibility was pretty much down to John not living in Sheffield.That was where most of the talent operated from.I did all the moves on Parthian Shot way back in 79,apart from the pocket move,on a 20 minute ab inspection.The route was clearly feasible. John's gruff West Yorks tone didn't go down so well in S Yorks.
1
In reply to UKC News:
I lived and climbed in Ilkley when JD was just starting out. He clearly had prodigious talent even as a boy and having seen him climb on and off over the years I don't doubt any of his ascents. The last time I saw him, many years ago now but then past his prime, was walking with the ex-wife at Gordale, where I rounded the corner to see him shooting up Pierrepoint like it was a VS.
I lived and climbed in Ilkley when JD was just starting out. He clearly had prodigious talent even as a boy and having seen him climb on and off over the years I don't doubt any of his ascents. The last time I saw him, many years ago now but then past his prime, was walking with the ex-wife at Gordale, where I rounded the corner to see him shooting up Pierrepoint like it was a VS.
In reply to lnikj:
No one seems to doubt his ability to do the routes he claimed, but as John said above his controversial character seems more down to lack of definitive proof and media savvy. No one doubted Ueli Steck's ability to do the South Face of Annapurna, but the lack of definitive evidence always makes claims controversial.
> I lived and climbed in Ilkley when JD was just starting out. He clearly had prodigious talent even as a boy and having seen him climb on and off over the years I don't doubt any of his ascents.
No one seems to doubt his ability to do the routes he claimed, but as John said above his controversial character seems more down to lack of definitive proof and media savvy. No one doubted Ueli Steck's ability to do the South Face of Annapurna, but the lack of definitive evidence always makes claims controversial.
In reply to planetmarshall:
But thousands of first ascents have been claimed/made without any evidence except the word of the climber, and usually his second. I guess I shouldn't reopen an old can of worms but what was the evidence that JD's routes were NOT done?
> No one seems to doubt his ability to do the routes he claimed, but as John said above his controversial character seems more down to lack of definitive proof and media savvy. No one doubted Ueli Steck's ability to do the South Face of Annapurna, but the lack of definitive evidence always makes claims controversial.
But thousands of first ascents have been claimed/made without any evidence except the word of the climber, and usually his second. I guess I shouldn't reopen an old can of worms but what was the evidence that JD's routes were NOT done?
In reply to Postmanpat:
See my post regarding the 1st ascent of The Great Escape. "there was chalk on the route but it ran out before the top and there was loose rock beyond this point"
See my post regarding the 1st ascent of The Great Escape. "there was chalk on the route but it ran out before the top and there was loose rock beyond this point"
In reply to Postmanpat:
Generally speaking, you can't have evidence of something that doesn't exist, or that didn't happen. Thus the problem facing atheists v. religion etc...
You're right about thousands of ascents accepted on the climber's word, and that's great, but generally those are not ascents at the *very* highest level, with a lot riding on them financially, personally, socially and culturally. When big claims are made, big attention follows and thus many see the onus on the protagonist to prove their claim. False claims steal from those that follow.
I always accepted Dunne's claims, not that it would matter what I think, but I see now, in hindsight and in light of other controversies that I have studied or been close to, that the controversy was understandable. He's maybe lucky he was at a time just before digital and phone cameras became commonplace, let alone video. I doubt he'd get away with such an unproven claim now.
Steck also has no summit photos from Shishapangma, and seemingly Makalu or other climbs. Others have noted that for someone with almost unmatched professionalism and fastidious preparation, it's a glaring error. Repeated. Time will tell.
As usual, there's a cast of thousands willing to say they don't doubt X climbed it because they saw X climb something else, and they've seen X had the ability, and those people may well be right. But that is still not proof that X actually did it.
Most climbing frauds are not complete ground-up total fabrications - they are embellishments that get out of hand over time, eventually to the point they become outright lies. No one doubted that Maestri, Cesen, Stangl etc were very good climbers who could maybe, possibly, do what they claimed they did.
Note: I'm not implying tacitly or otherwise that I think Dunne's claims were false. I really wouldn't know and don't particularly care.
You either genuinely climb for yourself, in which case it genuinely doesn't matter what others think - or you climb for others, in which case, like all professional sportspeople, you're an entertainer. If you're an entertainer then it only matters how well you entertain people. Maybe you think you're somewhere in the middle. Maybe you're wrong.
> ... but what was the evidence that JD's routes were NOT done?
Generally speaking, you can't have evidence of something that doesn't exist, or that didn't happen. Thus the problem facing atheists v. religion etc...
You're right about thousands of ascents accepted on the climber's word, and that's great, but generally those are not ascents at the *very* highest level, with a lot riding on them financially, personally, socially and culturally. When big claims are made, big attention follows and thus many see the onus on the protagonist to prove their claim. False claims steal from those that follow.
I always accepted Dunne's claims, not that it would matter what I think, but I see now, in hindsight and in light of other controversies that I have studied or been close to, that the controversy was understandable. He's maybe lucky he was at a time just before digital and phone cameras became commonplace, let alone video. I doubt he'd get away with such an unproven claim now.
Steck also has no summit photos from Shishapangma, and seemingly Makalu or other climbs. Others have noted that for someone with almost unmatched professionalism and fastidious preparation, it's a glaring error. Repeated. Time will tell.
As usual, there's a cast of thousands willing to say they don't doubt X climbed it because they saw X climb something else, and they've seen X had the ability, and those people may well be right. But that is still not proof that X actually did it.
Most climbing frauds are not complete ground-up total fabrications - they are embellishments that get out of hand over time, eventually to the point they become outright lies. No one doubted that Maestri, Cesen, Stangl etc were very good climbers who could maybe, possibly, do what they claimed they did.
Note: I'm not implying tacitly or otherwise that I think Dunne's claims were false. I really wouldn't know and don't particularly care.
You either genuinely climb for yourself, in which case it genuinely doesn't matter what others think - or you climb for others, in which case, like all professional sportspeople, you're an entertainer. If you're an entertainer then it only matters how well you entertain people. Maybe you think you're somewhere in the middle. Maybe you're wrong.
Post edited at 13:51
5
In reply to Damo:
Great post. I remember a thread on t'other channel about how with claims of cutting edge climbs, it shouldn't be taboo to ask for proof.
http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,21378.0.html
If we care about the climbing community and its records, then we should care about people verifying their first (or significant repeat) ascents. It only takes a belayer to back you up really - though nowadays an unedited video is as good if not better.
This is speaking generally. I wasn't around at the time so I don't know the details of the John Dunne controversies that are alluded to in this thread, and any proof or lack thereof of his ascents.
> You're right about thousands of ascents accepted on the climber's word, and that's great, but generally those are not ascents at the *very* highest level, with a lot riding on them financially, personally, socially and culturally. When big claims are made, big attention follows and thus many see the onus on the protagonist to prove their claim. False claims steal from those that follow.
> Note: I'm not implying tacitly or otherwise that I think Dunne's claims were false. I really wouldn't know and don't particularly care.
> You either genuinely climb for yourself, in which case it genuinely doesn't matter what others think - or you climb for others, in which case, like all professional sportspeople, you're an entertainer. If you're an entertainer then it only matters how well you entertain people. Maybe you think you're somewhere in the middle. Maybe you're wrong.
> Note: I'm not implying tacitly or otherwise that I think Dunne's claims were false. I really wouldn't know and don't particularly care.
> You either genuinely climb for yourself, in which case it genuinely doesn't matter what others think - or you climb for others, in which case, like all professional sportspeople, you're an entertainer. If you're an entertainer then it only matters how well you entertain people. Maybe you think you're somewhere in the middle. Maybe you're wrong.
Great post. I remember a thread on t'other channel about how with claims of cutting edge climbs, it shouldn't be taboo to ask for proof.
http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,21378.0.html
If we care about the climbing community and its records, then we should care about people verifying their first (or significant repeat) ascents. It only takes a belayer to back you up really - though nowadays an unedited video is as good if not better.
This is speaking generally. I wasn't around at the time so I don't know the details of the John Dunne controversies that are alluded to in this thread, and any proof or lack thereof of his ascents.
In reply to Damo:
Surely if a climber provides details for their belayer (and others if applicable) who can then vouch for them then folk should accept a claim on that basis? If they can't provide that evidence (or they solo a climb without witnesses) then there is perhaps grounds for suspicion. As far as I know (I think the video says this) JD's ascents are in the former category.
I also have to ask how many cutting edge FAs from the late 80s were filmed? Not many I suspect.
Surely if a climber provides details for their belayer (and others if applicable) who can then vouch for them then folk should accept a claim on that basis? If they can't provide that evidence (or they solo a climb without witnesses) then there is perhaps grounds for suspicion. As far as I know (I think the video says this) JD's ascents are in the former category.
I also have to ask how many cutting edge FAs from the late 80s were filmed? Not many I suspect.
In reply to Damo:
With regards to Tomo Cesan and claims such as he made about big Himalayan routes, i wondered two things...
People would be inspired to achieve things, believing that the envolope was pushed by others ("If Tomo can do it - so can we.") and thus perhaps achieve more that was otherwise possible.
However, the other side of that coin is that people may be more willing to push things too far and get into unrecoverable situations as a result of their willingness to believe that something is true. ("Jesus walked on water, so i'll give it a go too")
I don't see this with John Dunne's routes though.
As to memories of him... i remember in the foundry in the mid 90's my friend, who thought himself to be pretty good, saw a large gentleman (JD) at the bouldering wall. My friend swaggered over with his stick thin torso on display and had a go at one of the hard problems suitably close to where JD was stood . He nodded at the large gent before launching upwards as if to say "step aside big boy and watch a real climber in action". Well, we watched him fail half way up and after a theatrical struggle come crashing down on the pads, right next to JD who then after a suitably distainfull couple of seconds cruised up it like gravity had been switched off.
We then pointed out to our friend (who was still in a crumpled mess on the mat) that John Dunne had his trainers on for the problem and if he did the same maybe then he wouldn't have looked like such a fanny.
With regards to Tomo Cesan and claims such as he made about big Himalayan routes, i wondered two things...
People would be inspired to achieve things, believing that the envolope was pushed by others ("If Tomo can do it - so can we.") and thus perhaps achieve more that was otherwise possible.
However, the other side of that coin is that people may be more willing to push things too far and get into unrecoverable situations as a result of their willingness to believe that something is true. ("Jesus walked on water, so i'll give it a go too")
I don't see this with John Dunne's routes though.
As to memories of him... i remember in the foundry in the mid 90's my friend, who thought himself to be pretty good, saw a large gentleman (JD) at the bouldering wall. My friend swaggered over with his stick thin torso on display and had a go at one of the hard problems suitably close to where JD was stood . He nodded at the large gent before launching upwards as if to say "step aside big boy and watch a real climber in action". Well, we watched him fail half way up and after a theatrical struggle come crashing down on the pads, right next to JD who then after a suitably distainfull couple of seconds cruised up it like gravity had been switched off.
We then pointed out to our friend (who was still in a crumpled mess on the mat) that John Dunne had his trainers on for the problem and if he did the same maybe then he wouldn't have looked like such a fanny.
2
In reply to James Edwards:
This is exactly what was thought in Slovenia about the 1995 death of Slavko Sveticic on GIV.
> However, the other side of that coin is that people may be more willing to push things too far and get into unrecoverable situations as a result of their willingness to believe that something is true.
This is exactly what was thought in Slovenia about the 1995 death of Slavko Sveticic on GIV.
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