UKC

Apologies in advance for what turned out to be a very long post with a lot of questions!
I've recently gained a huge amount of psyche to try and seriously push the standard of my climbing while, fortunately this has coincided with me moving to a new place in Derby 5 minutes from a pretty decent wall. As such I've set myself the goal of leading my first E4 by christmas 2016 (I had originally set a 1 year time limit but this extension gives a good period of time which should have decent conditions for grit at the end of the time period). I've never really seriously trained for any sport before, the closest I have got is identifying a type of climbing at which I am weak and trying to address that which has worked reasonably well so far, however I've not made any serious use of tools like campus boards and finger boards up until now so I would hugely appreciate some advice about the best way to approach my training while avoiding injury.
If people think I will be best getting a coach then I am happy to do this at the end of the month once I've been paid, until then I would hugely appreciate any pointers people can give me.
I am currently leading E1 reasonably comfortably and have led a couple of E2s (Magic Flute and Tower Face Direct so both one move wonders really). Sport wise I've so far led up to 6a+ comfortably and a couple of 6bs (both onsight) which felt alright. Bouldering wise I've climbed up to font 6b, I seem to be climbing at a similar standard to this indoors at present.
I appreciate this is going to take a lot of training, I can probably manage 4 days a week at the wall and both days at the weekend with friday being the off day (some weekends this will involve travelling away from the peak, some weekends this will just be being sociable with colleagues/ friends).
As I have never got really heavily into training before I've got quite a lot of questions about the best way to approach this:
I have been suggested to properly get into sport climbing and start working towards 7a as that is the sport equivalent of E4, so far I've only used sport as a method of gauging where my ability is at present rather than as a training technique. Is this reasonable? If so what split of sport/ trad/ bouldering should I go for at the weekends?
Should sport days be focused on getting mileage at 6a+ for the minute or should I focus on redpointing harder stuff?
The climbing unit (my local wall) has a circuit board and roped routes, should I try and sort out partners to do the routes with, or will a thorough hammering on the circuit board and bouldering cut the mustard?
Where in a solo bouldering session should I be getting on the circuit board? Also should I be beginning to make use of the campus/ finger boards? I am aware that there is a potential for getting injured using these so would definitely take it gently.
How long should sessions at the wall be and should I be climbing to the point where the standard of my climbing drops off rapidly?
I am currently planning on heading to Geyikbayiri just before Christmas, should I plan some further sport climbing trips or would mixing it up with bouldering/ trad trips be beneficial?
I've got no problem with the E4 that I lead at the end of the project being practiced on a top rope, however I don't want to spend more than a couple of days working it as top roping something into submission doesn't really fit in with my idea of fun.
Coaching wise I am guessing that my best bet is to get some help knocking up a decent training plan soon, then put in the effort to follow said training plan with possibly a trad coaching session if my sport and trad grades get out of kilter? I know a good coach who has seen most of my development as a climber as he works at what used to be my local wall so I'll book a session with him at the end of the month (I've just started a new job and haven't been paid yet so cash is tight for the next couple of weeks). From what I've read Adrian Berry would be a good man to speak to about trad coaching if I begin to feel that that is necessary.
I'm happy placing gear and running it out above marginal gear as well as the belay building aspect, if things do start to get a bit too hairy I will back off stuff and if things don't go to plan with the project I would rather adjust my plans than push too hard and seriously injure myself.
I'm aware of these two threads/ articles which provided some of the inspiration for the project:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=7366
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=568452

In reply to spenser:
I'm no good for training help but if you can lead the odd E2 onsight I would gamble you would be able to lead E4 headpoint after a day on one with very little training unless you're going for some wild pumpy thing. Especially if you boulder 6B. By all means get training, a winters solid training with good weather days out on E4s on TR. If you want to lead E4, you need to climb E4s. Save the good ones for the onsight . Also, I think at the end of your project, if you really go for it, you should aim to be onsighting E4

In reply to spenser:
My first suggestion would be to be a bit more specific about your goals. 'E4' covers a lot of ground. Bold Gritstone slabs? Cimpy limestone walls? Steep finger cracks?

If you're serious, pick an E4 you'd like to do and focus your training around that. If the grade is important, pick something uncontentious to remove any niggling 'was it really E4' type doubts. Find similar climbs in the E1-E3 range that represent a progression of difficulty, exclude anything that doesn't help you on your climb of choice.

Naturally if your goal is to be 'Comfortable on anything at E4' rather than 'Climb an E4', this is going to require a different approach and significantly more time.

In reply to planetmarshall:

My thoughts:

1. Climb loads on rock. Mileage. As much as possible. All rock types and style.
2. Do other stuff for fitness - yoga feels like it's made a difference for me this summer. 15mins daily with 30min or 1h sessions couple of times a week? try Yoga Studio on iOS. Also run!
3. Concentrate on endurance/ power endurance at the wall.

Good luck!

In reply to spenser:
If you can boulder font 6b, and can bring your sport grade up to be consistent with this (7aish), and then become comfortable climbing in extremis above gear, you could onsight e4.

So maybe you could keep up the bouldering and start doing some more sport climbing indoors during the week; every time you reach the chains, don't clip them - jump off to get used to falling. At the weekends, go out and do trad you're comfortable with (e1/2), gradually bringing this up to be consistent with your sport grade, until you reach e4.

Also, climb trad with someone who is better than you and who will encourage you/help you to do harder routes.

This approach with more bouldering and slightly less sport climbing got me to e4 relatively quickly. I knew that I could boulder the moves indoors, and that I just needed to transfer that potential in to trad (which isn't easy as trad requires lots of different techniques, but you can do it!)

Good luck!.

In reply to spenser:

Honestly, if you're happy that a headpoint ascent of a single carefully selected E4 in a handful of sessions would meet your ambitions, I'd just get on one on a toprope next time you go out and see what happens. The power of repeated practice is amazing.

It doesn't feel like a 15 month project.

In reply to spenser:

If you've done magic flute then go back and do On the Verge. That should save you 14 months!

As others have said, you need more time outside leading by the sounds of it. Plenty of E4s which don't require you to specifically train for them. Keep leading, lots of variety - rock type, location, sea cliffs, multi pitch etc.

Then pick a route that suits your preferred style and go for it.

In reply to spenser:

Go sport climbing and climb outside as much as possible. Unless you plan on doing something incredibly bouldery, there is not really any need to campus or finger board.

Additionally, just chose a safe one next time you're out and give it a go. I'll give you a gauge of where you are and also I believe that people (me included) restrict themselves with a fear of failure rather than just getting on stuff.

In reply to spenser:
UKC at its best, there's some really helpful comments in here, I really appreciate the effort you guys have made to offer advice.
Cheesemonkey: Going off what everyone has said I may have misjudged how big the challenge is, this is most likely to do with me having never actually tried to climb anything harder than E2 or F6b+ so a change of goal to onsighting some choice E4s sounds reasonable, I'll be getting out this weekend in the peak (weather permitting) so should be able to take a stab at one on a top rope.

Planet Marshall: I'm pretty good at bold slab climbing, however as far as I am aware E4 slabs tend to have no gear rather than the mediocre to poor gear present on E1/ E2 slabs so I'd like to go for something a little bit safer. I have been working on my hand jamming over the summer as it's something which I was very weak at, so some kind of jamming crack or a crimpy slightly overhanging wall with a safe fall zone and good (but possibly spaced gear) seems like a good bet to me. I have been recommended to give Jetrunner (E4 6a) a go once I feel ready, I looked at it a couple of weeks ago, it looks pretty hard but could be a good candidate as it would suit my style of climbing due to their being obvious sections of the route so I can break down the sequences. My ultimate goal is to lead The Tube (E4 5c) once I am capable of onsighting E4, however I am happy for this to be a long way down the line. I definitely don't want to end up with a massive imbalance in ability toward one style of climbing so I may have to adjust the goal of the project somewhat (possibly to E3 onsight in most styles with E4 onsight on some specific ones).

Owen: Mileage on rock will probably be limited to weekends and maybe one weekday evening (apart from a sport trip just before christmas) due to winter setting in and my ability to get away from work early being a little unpredictable as I have just started a new job and am currently still doing the induction stuff. Weather permitting I will definitely be out both days every weekend though. I fully appreciate that a variety of rock types will be helpful as part of the training, I have joined the local mountaineering club who have a pretty active meet calendar so I should be able to go further afield from the peak district without too much grief. With regards the cardio I only live about 2 miles from work so can easily do some exercise on the way to work, with a slight variation to my route I should be able to bump it up to 4 miles quite easily, would that be a sufficient distance to be running in terms of improving fitness, I am currently cycling to work so could equally bump the distance up a bit further and cycle there, I would imagine that the two activities will complement each other so I will try and mix them up. I'm relatively happy with how to build endurance into a session and I'll take a look at some stuff on power endurance tonight and see how it can be built into a training session.

Theomoore: One of my new colleagues seems to like sport climbing so I should be able to fit in an indoor lead session once a week, jumping off at the chains will definitely help me get confident with falling off. I've never really pushed myself enough to fall off stuff because it's too hard other than a couple of occasions (mostly getting to somewhere and not being able to see where to go before trying rubbish beta) so fall practice will definitely do me good.

AJM: The others have already convinced me to push the goal in the direction of onsighting choice E4s while being comfortable a decent range of E3s onsight. I will throw a rope down something hard this weekend and see what happens I think!

Dashed: I did seriously consider getting on it just after I'd done the magic flute but was put off by the description of the gear in the NMC guide. This said it is exactly my kind of route and I would love to do it some day, I've promised a few mates that live up that way that I will be up occasionally as the county is one of my favourite places to climb.

Oli: You seem to be echoing other people's advice here so much the same comment that I will give something hard and safe a go this weekend to see how much help I need.
Thanks for the advice everyone, it's given me a decent boost in my confidence that I'll get the project done, now I just need not to wimp out!

In reply to spenser:

You wont need finger boards etc for e4.just climb and by then you will piss e4.
On the grand scheme e4 isn't that hard,ypu will be fine.just climb lots.technique technique

In reply to spenser:

Be prepared to get shut down, repeatedly. I have an occasional 7c project that is miles away from getting finished (and miles from my onsight grade), but I'm enjoying it. Just dont be disheartened! Take your time and accept its ok to not be able to do it on the day, then you can enjoy the challenge.

In reply to spenser:
Loads of great advice on this thread but
•stay motivated
•climb with people better than you
• when you go climbing, actually do lots of climbing, don't just do three routes, do ten.
• get on the harder stuff, don't just think about getting on them.
• don't get too disheartened by failure, it happens to the best ( I struggle with this).

There's nothing wrong with headpointing (as long as you're not scrittling all over some pebble critical slab) but I defo recommend leaving the classics for onsighting later as you may regret it.

And good luck, with motivation you'll smash it

In reply to spenser:


Very different kettle of fish then!

I would suggest that you need to start trying things and failing on them in order to work out where your limits are and what it is that causes you to fail. Then you'll stand a better chance of training the right things...

In reply to mark s:



Totally agree.

Mick

In reply to spenser:

I guess the stuff you do on rock is going to be determined by lots of factors, but I can offer a bit of advice about how to spend your time indoors: get fit!

Do lots and lots of laps in the wall. 4x4s are the way forward for trad training IMO - when I've climbed a few E4s it's been after a winter of 4x4s on steep routes. If you can do laps on 6c indoors, you can generally hang on to trad routes for hours without getting pumped, which for me anyway is much of what trad is about. It might be helpful to do a load of low intensity/high volume (10 minutes on, 10 minutes off) sessions before getting stuck into the 4x4s. If you can do a couple of short sessions bouldering each week too you're laughing.

Obviously not all routes respond well to a training/fitness approach (grit really doesn't). But wall fitness goes a long way in Pembroke, and even further at Lower Sharpnose. After a winter in the wall, Break On Through (E4 5c) feels about f6a+ (it's no way E4 really), and Fay (E4 5c) isn't that much harder. These aren't the kinds of routes you need to top-rope because they're totally brainless, you just pull on the holds and if you don't get pumped you get to the top - easy!

I've never managed to get into sport climbing as a way to improve trad. The thing I would say about it is that while it's obviously got to be helpful, it is very power-endurancy, and for trad, it's hanging on for hours working stuff out and placing good gear that allows you to commit that gets you up the routes at E3/4, not being able to pull off rehearsed sequences of sustained 6a, executing each move without stuffing it up. That's why when I go to the wall I rarely do hard routes, and just stick to laps.

By the way, this advice comes after I had a session with a coach years ago, when my target was Gogarth E3s and, after watching me boulder and stuff, suggested that I focus on this stuff. I like the structure too and you improve quickly at stamina training, which is satisfying (more so than falling at the same clip on the same route again and again, for me at least).

Hope that's useful.

In reply to spenser:

Check your bmi, provided your not too light already, loose 5kg, should get you a couple of grade - obviously you would probably want to take advice on how to do this but eating less is essentially the key - I've just had chips and don't expect to break into E4 this week

In reply to theomoore: I'm fascinated by this - your comments are making me think. I've led E2 this year, RP F7a in a couple of hours after a couple of go's on TR and bouldered f6C. Yet I would'nt contemplate some of my dream list E4's (e.g Arms Race, Flaky Wall, Bloody Sunday). I would see my lack of strength endurance as a serious failing on such trad routes. Perhaps I need to pull my finger out.
Thanks
Chris

In reply to spenser:

If your goal is E4 by 2016 then you should also include the smaller goals of E2 and E3. Once you build up confidence and competence by doing a bunch of routes at each grade in different styles and on different rock types then try something the next grade up.


Keep analyzing your weaknesses and be guided by that. That means doing a lot of that which you are worst at.



If you can already onsight 6bs then you should be aiming for 6b+ onsight and redpointing 6c and 6c+. Doing hard redpoints is probably better for overall impovement because you spend a lot of time outside your comfort zone. Avoid using a cheat stick. Getting used to taking falls is part of becoming a better climber.




Not to climb E4 no. These tools are really for harder climbs and/or people who don't have access to decent indoor walls.



E grades are for ground up ascents. If you top practice something first, particularly a bold route, then your effort on the route won't equate to E4. Also if you build up slowly and steadily over the next year there really shouldn't be any need for that.

In reply to spenser:
A few thoughts:
- getting good at sport can benefit your trad climbing
- I went from E1 to E4 (ish) while my sport onsights went from 6b to 7a (ish) over the last decade or so (coaching helped)
- onsighting and redpointing all feed in to each other, even on trad a low E-grade headpoint or ground up can be a worthwhile exercise
- ultimately trad is about onsighting so having this confidence on sport is useful but takes time
- E4 and 7a are probably close enough in terms of the physical ability required, so if you can o/s one I would expect you could do the same for the other
- remember the 3 F's....footwork, footwork, footwork! (get somebody to video just your feet)
- climbing regularly and push yourself at the crag

In reply to spenser:

I did a similar thing to you, and went from E1 being my absolute limit last year to leading E4 by the end of this summer. I was doing huge amounts of bouldering indoors as well as lots of rehab/antagonist exercises to keep tennis elbow at bay.

I haven't read the rest of the replies but hopefully a few other people will have told you (and I'll say it too) that the most important stuff will happen in your head, and you are going to have to get ALOT of mileage in to be comfortable with running it out etc. One other thing is, don't get in over your head and potentially risk your life just for a number or letter, really you have your entire life to enjoy climbing so don't rush, it's about the journey not the ending.

In reply to spenser:

I'd avoid getting too hung up on sport if you want to feel comfortable on what could be runout or awkward to protect routes - you'll need very solid gear skills so just get out on rock as much as possible and hone those skills.
Sport will improve your fitness and stamina but do nothing for your head.
With several days a week at your disposal you should progress pretty well - build a solid pyramid and beware of burnout if you constantly feel you have to push yourself.
Mileage, mileage mileage...

In reply to spenser:

Minor setback at the wall last night as I fell off, clipping a hold just above the mat while bouldering and in the process managed to break some small part of my right ankle so I've been told that I am going to be none weight bearing on that leg for a couple of weeks (no cast needed but I'm carless and am only so good at hopping). Currently zooming round on a pair of crutches, planning on trying to do some sit ups/ dishing etc in the mean time as otherwise I'm going to be bored rigid!
Mark s: I wasn't sure about when finger boards etc started to become useful hence the question. Good to know I don't need to take the risks associated with using them.
Cheesemonkey: Getting shut down due to having an off day on something I'm psyched to work on should be ok, plenty of experience of being utterly shut down by stuff in font and a couple of boulder problems in the peak.
Deacon: Motivation has never been higher, happily running about on crutches and looking forward to the ankle being ok to climb on again. One or two of my mates climb at this kind of standard so I may be able to second them on some harder stuff once I'm sorted out. I've been getting a bit of practice in climbing more routes while at the crag and obviously this is the way to get lots more mileage in. I'm getting a little bit better at deciding I want to get on harder stuff of my own accord (rather than being coerced into it by mates) so I think I'm working on a lot of this stuff already but it's good to have this approach confirmed!
Jon Stewart: When I can get a partner for roped stuff I'll start doing 4*4s, I seem to remember seeing some articles on here a while ago about it so I will pull that up and have a read. If I can't sort a partner I'll just have to be "that guy" who hogs the circuit board occasionally! Thanks for the recommendations at Lower Sharpnose, they both look good to me, I've been been meaning to get down that way for a while so it may just give me a really good excuse to do so!
MFB: Definitely plenty of scope for me to lose weight, I'm currently 83 kg and 179cm tall so a little on the overweight side. I'm going to have to be careful about the amount I eat over the next couple of weeks but I should be able to drop 5 kg or so without a massive amount of effort. Obviously there is plenty of scope for improvement here, although the lightest I've been in the last couple of years was 78 kg. As an aside I'm a 23 year old bloke and I fully understand that losing a bit of weight would probably be good on the general health front as well, I'm eating a lot better now that I'm doing my own cooking again so comfortable that I can achieve the weight loss.
stp: My plan definitely was to go to E4 via some decent E2 and E3 mileage. Previous comments on the thread have persuaded me that I should get on something with good gear and see how I do to gauge how far away I am from getting the route done. I am fully aware that E4 is for the onsight, my original plan was to push up to this kind of standard using headpointing tactics and then progress to onsighting or ground upping safe E4s at a later date once this project was completed.
jsmcfarland: I have no intention of putting myself in any really dangerous positions in pursuit of the project and fully agree that no route is worth killing yourself for. I'm comfortable running it out above poor and mediocre gear and actually reckon it makes me climb a little better as I can't faff around making sure the gear's good (even when it's a bomber placement which obviously won't rip) before doing a hard move. This said I'm really looking forward to getting on stuff like Brown's Eliminate and Sundowner this winter.
Pasbury: I'm aware of the need for rest and fully understand that you can't climb at your limit all of the time but definitely sound advice to avoid injury.
For anyone else considering a similar project: Don't fall off a bouldering wall in such a way that you break any bits of yourself either at the start or anywhere else in the project! Actually just don't get injured!

In reply to spenser:

I broke my foot last week too (skateboarding), and so I'm also facing a good few weeks off with potentially a couple of months before I'm back on it properly again.
Doesn't mean we have to stop training though, I've started a course of fingerboarding, and am consciously watching what I eat, as without excercise I'll balloon in weight. Think I'll treat myself to a campus board session later in the weak too. Lol

In reply to spenser:

sorry

In reply to spenser:
Also you mentioned Adrian Berry in your opening thread. I actually did have a day's climbing coaching with him a couple of years ago and did go from E2 to E4 in a day with him.

In reply to deacondeacon:

I'd seen a couple of posts on that thread about grit E4s which I linked in the original post mentioning him in relation to doing that kind of thing hence that suggestion. By the sound of it with a bit of time and well applied effort I might be able to do this without a coach but I'll keep my options open.
Some core work is absolutely the plan, I think I'll leave fingerboards etc for the minute as I don't want to add a finger injury to the ankle injury. I've been told it will likely hurt to walk for 2 weeks and definitely no climbing for 1 week, if it feels really good I may be able to get some done in the second week. For the amount of pain I was in I'm happy with that prediction of recovery time!
MFB: I'm not especially worried, these things happen, bones regrow and most injuries heal. Thanks for the well wishes though!

In reply to spenser:

One thing I don't think has been mentioned that much but is very important is getting used to taking leader falls. At E1 to E2 you can mostly get away with not taking any, and if you get pumped just hang on the rope at a convenient runner.

Progress up the grades is partly a matter of getting stronger and better technically. But another important part of it is climbing closer and closer to your physical limits. But the closer you get the greater the chance of taking leader falls. If you're not comfortable taking falls your climbing will be inhibited and you'll end up climbing well below your potential. In trad this implies being totally competent at placing good gear too, to make sure you're safe. I also find it useful to be able to switch between climbing when you know its safe to fall, to sections of routes where its not safe and you have to be more careful. Whilst there are the occasional dangerous routes out there if you're competent placing gear the average E4 6a or 6b should be just as safe as any sport route - at the very least on the crux sections.

In reply to spenser:

I think some of the advice here is really good but a word of warning leading an easy E4 onsight is well within you reach but being a pretty solid onsight E4 leader on a range of styles and rocktypes is a long way above your current standard. You need to train hard, be lucky with injury and have a bit of aptitude and be very careful on grit. My best sport, trad and bouldering are close to yours and I got to that point in a few years but at my strongest I only ever regarded myself as a solid VS leader. I've climbed loads for years and climbed with elite climbers, have been capable of E4 headpoints having cleanly seconded a few routes at this grade (but uninterested... I only headpoint for new routes or minor lower graded climbs that look dodgy when guidebook checking) .

In reply to spenser: If you want to get good at Trad climbing, thenthen just go Trad climbing, EVERY weekend.

Simples.

Forget about pretty much anything else, just be utterly pysched for the Trad every chance you get.

That is what works. I went climbing with a partner this Summer and he was on his twelfth Trad climbing weekend in a row. Unsurprisingly he was cruising E3 and itching for us to jump on a major E5 at Swanage. On the other hand, having climbed about one weekend a month, I was backing off stuff despite the fact that back in April when we first climbed together I succeeded on a sport redpoint he failed on.

Sport, bouldering and indoor climbing all translate fairly poorly to Trad. The best training for Trad climbing is Trad climbing.

In reply to stp:


Wise words. Back in the day, my leading grade wasn't much above my soloing grade - because I did far, far too much soloing. So, even with bomber gear, I'd often back off a move where there wasn't 100% certainty. (In my mind, I was still soloing!) Conversely in the, "Can't fall off," situations, I'd simply flick into the, "F*ck it, I can solo this," mode. But I never really mastered the switching between modes and, looking back with hindsight, I now realise I missed out on so many great leads. (But maybe there's still time!)

There were exceptions. For instance, once I faffed about too long on Queer Street, took quite a big lob, went back up and finished through (then) quite runout territory. But these were decided exceptions. Essentially soloing (much as I loved it) held me back massively. Readers, don't make the same mistakes; learn from mine.

Mick

In reply to stp:

That was part of the idea of throwing some sport into the mix. I've taken a few lead falls on trad gear and am confident I can judge the pieces which are good, those which would slow me down if I lob and those that are purely psychological.
I've done a decent number of routes where falling off a 5a move would be rather unpleasant so being able to swap from climbing close to my limit with good gear and slightly easier but still not trivial) ground with poor gear is not a massive problem for me.
Offwidth: I'm not expecting to be able to hop on any E4 regardless of styles and rock types for a while yet. Obviously I've not been too lucky with injury having chipped my ankle.

In reply to spenser:

Thats the thing though your not really leading E4 if its really E3 and suits you. If you want to lead an E4 headpoint a well known soft touch now (there are plenty). All this trad climb a lot and you will get there is nonsense. Its from those with the talent and aptitude forgetting not evryone has that. There are other ways... get very strong so the risk feels trivial.

In reply to Offwidth:


It's amazing how my footwork improves when I feel strong. For me that's the main benefit of climbing indoors.

Al

In reply to GridNorth:


Exactly. Everything is so much easier when you're strong (so crap holds feel alright) and fit (so you don't get pumped and start gibbering). There is a lot to be gained from training around the E3/4 mark.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

And in contrast one of the skills to acquire is to keep your cool and continue to concentrate on your footwork when you are pumped and perhaps in difficulty. The best climbers I know, and try to emulate, are very cool under pressure. You can't tell they are in difficulty until the moment they pop. No Elvis leg nor any other signs. I would say that that sort of skill becomes evident at about E3/4 e.g. you can gibber your way up an E1 or even an E2 but it becomes much more difficult after that.

Al

In reply to GridNorth:

Actually if you are fit and strong you can just choose better protected E4s. Even had the Stone Monkey himself last night say a rounded E4 leader was a really high standard, he saw himself as E6.