UKC

I'm bored of bolting debates, so...

Points awarded for date (closest wins if no exact hits) and route of the first Winter climb logged with UKC in Winter 2015/16. No points for the venue as odds-on it will be Sneachda (And no dry-tooling routes, obviously).

For reference, last year it was Harry Holmes and Robert Taylor in Honeypot on 7th November ( Though I think Simon Yearsley climbed something the same day ).

The prize is kudos and a day or so of lording it over your fellow UKC users.

I'm going with

Fingers Ridge
November 21st

In reply to planetmarshall:

Simon Yearsley and Andy Nisbet climbed a new route on the mess o pottage buttress on the same day.

My bet is November 25th.

In reply to planetmarshall:

The Message, November 14th

In reply to planetmarshall:

My guess is November 30th.

I wanted to guess 31st but knew I would lose.

In reply to planetmarshall:

Winter bouldering where it's at, it's the future, sorry couldn't resist.

youtube.com/watch?v=jNrdI1nUPmM&

In reply to planetmarshall:

Hidden Chimney on October 31st.

In reply to planetmarshall:

CMD arete, october 24th

In reply to Webster:


Hmm... don't know if I can allow that! Maybe I should have specified grade III and above?

In reply to planetmarshall:

Tower ridge, October 31

In reply to planetmarshall:


too late its on record now!

it will almost certainly be a ridge walk with a dusting of snow on it that is logged first.

In reply to Andy Clarke1965:

ha ha! Followed the link to the clip of Ines Papert and Ian Parnell on Blood Sweat and Frozen Tears - "We had all earned our Scottish wings. It was a rough and honest experience..." Which pretty much sums up the Scottish Winter for me. Bring it on!

In reply to planetmarshall:

If the Daily Express is anything to go by, the crags are already in condition and will be until August 2016.

In reply to Webster:

More likely to be someone logging a summer scramble against the winter equivalent by mistake

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

ether way, if its loged on oct 24th i win!

In reply to planetmarshall:
Pygmy Ridge, October 30th.

I live in hope.

In reply to planetmarshall:

Cutlass - Douglas Boulder. 14th Nov.

Andy

In reply to Andrew Wilson:


Ooh - controversial. Bonus point available for a non-Sneachda route

In reply to planetmarshall:

31st October, far west wall area of Beinn Eighe

James e

In reply to planetmarshall:
Hoarmaster, October 24th.

In reply to planetmarshall:

Kinder Downfall, a week on Sunday.



You were all thinking it.........

In reply to Martin not maisie:

You beat me to it! I was thinking the downfall tomorrow afternoon! I'm keen for a look, it might be in

In reply to planetmarshall:

Embankment 1, millstone, tomorrow...

*sharpens axes *

In reply to planetmarshall:

Pygmy Ridge, October 20th (my birthday!!).

In reply to planetmarshall:

Dorsel Arete 29th November

In reply to planetmarshall:
Viking Buttress, Helvellyn, November 13th.

For sub grade III routes Swirral Edge, October 26th.

In reply to planetmarshall:

I had a dream last night of the first snow, so I think tomorrow. Excited!

In reply to NottsRich:

I dreamt I was belaying Dave Mac on some unconsolidated horror-show. It was enough to put me off for the Winter...

In reply to planetmarshall:

Don't worry, you'll be fired up again tomorrow and get over your fear of snow. And then it will repeat. All winter, until you're begging for summer!

In reply to planetmarshall:

I can see a dusting of snow on Aonach Mor from my living room window

In reply to luckyjim:

Jim, you are indeed a lucky man!

In reply to Joak:

Yes.. i am very lucky...my bedroom window has a view of the Loch Lochy Hills and the kitchen window gives me a view of the Ben and i have a great view of the Grey Corries and Aonach Mor from the living room : )

In reply to luckyjim:


Are you in a tent?

In reply to planetmarshall:
No.... my house sits up the hill above Spean Bridge !

In reply to planetmarshall:

Long range forecasters are saying this is likely to be a severe winter, because of a large area of cold water in the Atlantic, further south than usual. The last time this happened was late 2010, when the weather was of course very cold. That was also a strong el Nino year - as this is. We shall see.

In reply to David Rose:

I'm only a beginner at winter climbing (10 years), but do you know how many of those pre-seasons climbers speculated were going to be the coldest winter ever? 10.

In reply to David Rose:


I'm not sure who these 'long range forecasters' are, but I tend to get my forecasts from the Met Office, and they have made no such prediction.

http://blog.metoffice.gov.uk/2015/09/15/what-do-we-know-about-the-coming-wi...

In reply to glaramara:


I am always sceptical of such predictions, however I live in hope of whatever bonkers combination of conditions are required to ice climb on the cliffs above the Old Man of Storr.

In reply to planetmarshall:

A dusting on the Ben and the Aonachs this morning

In reply to Jamie Hageman:


That's basically the Scottish equivalent of "There was frost on my windscreen this morning".

In reply to planetmarshall:

Met Office says that Ben Macdui is getting snow showers all day today...!

In reply to TheseKnivesMan:

Fingers crossed for my birthday win!!

In reply to Simon Yearsley:

More high pressure according to the latest GFS cartoon. It is but a forecast though. Good to get the ground nice and cold?
http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/avnpanel1.html

In reply to Martin not maisie:

I actually don't get this ongoing joke. Is Kinder Downfall commonly in early? Or rarely in? Or what?

In reply to neilwiltshire:


Or never. It's a mythical beast.

In reply to Martin not maisie:

Oh Martin,
Please don't lead us all into the abyss....the question "Is IT in yet?" keeps many a UKC'er going through the long, dark winter moths....
We can all dream.....
ANdy

In reply to planetmarshall:

Northwest Couloir (III)

Hmmm??
D.

In reply to DannyC:

They'll need to claim it! Or get a report from Simon Richardson

In reply to DannyC:

The Geese were right.

They are always right.

In reply to Roberttaylor:

Pictures on FB showing snow on Cairngorm.

In reply to Steve Perry:

Two inches of snow down to 900m today on the plateau. T'was lovely up there. A proper whiteout to start the season off but with sunshine after midday. Saw two climbers in Sneachda as I came down the Goat Track and thought for a moment they were trying to get the first rote of the season but no tools in sight.

In reply to Steve Perry:

I was out bothying last weekend and up on the plateau on Sat and Sun. It was getting very wintry (frozen turf and hoar but not much snow), but I think it'll be a wee while yet before the axes come out

http://www.mountain-forecast.com/peaks/Cairngorm/forecasts/1234

In reply to Steve Perry:

Cairngorm Summit had its warmest November temperature on record yesterday (12.5 deg C).

http://cairngormweather.eps.hw.ac.uk/current.htm

In reply to planetmarshall:

My bet is winter arriving in early December - with a bang!

In reply to george mc:

Hi George,

Not that you're one for getting your wallet out....but that's probably the safest £10 bet....ever...!

Hope your well mate,
ANdy

In reply to george mc:
Looks like someone has logged this Northwest Couloir (III)

Although I cant really imagine a gully was in nick. I guess they forgot to enter the year and they were actually retro logging.

Unisys are showing some colder stormy conditions coming in next week, probably resulting in some snow on the tops but some rain also

http://weather.unisys.com/gfs/gfs.php?inv=0&plot=850£ion=eu&t=9p

In reply to CurlyStevo:


It doesn't count if it was last Winter's snow

In reply to CurlyStevo:

It would be pretty hard with a light build-up, so probably last year.

n reply to planetmarshall:


http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/winter.html

,)

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

Any idea when winter is going to kick off this year?

In reply to Alex Slipchuk:

Dry tooling definitely doesn't count!

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Next week!

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

If you could go and do Fingers Ridge on the 21st, that would be great

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

I wouldn't be too surprised if some hero/enthusiast/nutter braves the wind and does a mixed route in the west on Saturday. Which would make the Cutlass on the 14th guess way above the closest guess, I think.

D.

In reply to planetmarshall:

Yippe! Snow covered rubble and soggy turf! I'm in err out...

In reply to planetmarshall:

Someone got keen, there's a BBC news report with some wonderfully bad reporting about someone getting rescued off observatory gully.

Brilliant bits are describing the gully's difficulty as a certain death route, and also suggesting that the gully is one of the Ben's great ridges!

Link to ukc as well, hopefully the person rescued will do the usual for getting the MRT out in howling weather and pay for their rescue. They mention in the article that they are short of cash...

In reply to planetmarshall:

Here;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-34808176

In reply to planetmarshall:

Can i change my original suggestion to "14th and 15th Novemenber on Beinn Eighe"
I've just had a premonition.
James

In reply to James Edwards:

If only
Cannot play until Sunday, when it'll be too late. Effy but worth a punt.

In reply to jonnie3430:


It was Lochaber MRT that described it as "certain death".

In reply to planetmarshall:


Clearly they were wrong though, because he didn't

In reply to planetmarshall:

If you look at the webcam for Cairngorm, there appears to be some strange white stuff covering the ground.....

In reply to planetmarshall:

Hhmm forecast is not being particularly co-operative next few days.

In reply to george mc:

errrrrrr??????????

In reply to Simon Yearsley:


Sorry. Forgot. Climbing slush covered rubble is the new winter climbing. Silly me.

In reply to planetmarshall:

Can we have a sweepstake on the number of people claiming the first route of the year?

I reckon 15.

In reply to planetmarshall:

This story generates some interesting points. It is the first time that I can recall an MRT using such strong condemnation of the conditions that led to a rescue. Their language is usually more along the lines of 'The victim was given firm advice about such ventures.....' Is it time to straight talk?
Also they make significant points about the different insurance positions of the Police Force, Ambulance staff etc who are employees often called to take part in rescue activities and volunteer MRT members who are more often at the sharp end of risk but there by commitment rather than employment. I recall having heard of several situations where MRT members who are self employed have suffered hardship as a result of injury during rescues with no insurance to cover them. Didn't the Coastguard Service encounter similar differences a few years ago where paid staff were working alongside volunteers? Do we need to resolve these issues if we are to continue with a mix of paid & unpaid rescuers?

In reply to jonnie3430:
I'll throw my hat in the ring for first route. Central Crack Route in Coire an Lochan. Topped out just after midday.

No. 2 buttress was looking good. Exposed turf was well frozen. No.1 and 4 a bit black. No 3 thin.

T'Sneacha was black with the exception of Fiacill buttress.

In reply to planetmarshall:


Only because they got their long range forecasts so wrong, so often, that they gave them up as a bad job.

In reply to joe.91:


Seems to be the closest guess?

In reply to DannyC:

I wanted it to be me that climbed it too, Alas not this time.

Andy

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Yep, pat on the back to Joe.91. Here's to a good Winter for everyone.

In reply to Brian Pollock:

Hold on...
When I got to Cha No at about 10am today two "Youths" (i.e. less than 30) had already done Chimney Rib and were looking for another suitably snowy line to do.
The car park was frozen on the way up, then very wet when we returned - definitely a thaw on this pm.
It was nice to be out.
James e

In reply to James Edwards:

Robbie and I did "the seam" and topped out at 11.59 h so well after "the youths" had done their first route! This bit of Fiacaill buttress had collected a lot of snow so that's why we climbed it. As was said, elsewhere in the corrie it looked from black to shades of grey.

In reply to hwackerhage: We met a guy around 1330 who said he'd done Invernookie but never thought to ask if he'd solo'd it. Maybe his partner(s) had headed out a different way. From where we saw him he must have been on the route around the same time as you were doing yours.

In reply to Steve Perry:

Has Invernookie become so denuded of turf that it's now considered an appropriate route for first snows and unfrozen ground? Changed days...

In reply to Jamie B:


Aye changed days indeed. One of the phenomena is the micro conditions that occur on routes climbed - where it's unfrozen everywhere else apart from the route climbed which is always in acceptable condition. Hence why a lot of old routes that were considered 'turf' route have now become rock routes.

In reply to Jamie B:

I've never done it so wouldn't know. The turf around Pygmy Ridge was frozen but the guy who we met said it wasn't on Invernookie. He said he'd managed to avoid turf and pull on rock, and he'd solo'd it so I guess he knew what he was doing. Fiacail area looked by far the most covered so it was going to attract. I've posted a picture of the Coire, check latest pics.

In reply to george mc:

I've certainly noticed a change in Invernookie over the years.

In reply to Jamie B:
Aye the turf on Invernookie wasn't frozen enough for climbing, but you don't really need to use it. There's plenty of rocky slabs on the sides of all the grassy steps that you can use to get around the turf. I can only speak for myself though, there was a few others on it after I topped out.


Edit!
Also I didn't climb the start of the route, I climbed a steep rock section that goes in between Bellhaven and Invernookie which is all rock. Then I joined Invernookie where it was closest to Bellhaven. So avoided the soft Turf

In reply to rob87n:

Hi Rob, it must have been you we met at the top of Pygmy Ridge (there were 4 of us), nice one on the solo.

In reply to Steve Perry:

getting to pygmy ridge must have been a nighmare with no snow in alladins mirror?

In reply to planetmarshall:

Haha thanks! Do I get a prize?

In reply to rob87n:


Is that bit of cliff more solid than the rest? I'd be pretty worried about the potential for loose blocks and lumps of turf if it wasn't well frozen.

In reply to Webster:


What's Aladdin's Mirror got to do with Pygmy Ridge?

In reply to Steve Perry:

Aladdins is one way of approaching Pygmy Ridge.

In reply to DaveHK:


It was fine the way I went up anyway, the bottom of Invernookie didn't look great so that's why I went around where the first couple of pitches were. You can ziz zag your way up on good rock. Maybe its not Invernookie then? But its good to climb.

In reply to DaveHK: Of course I was thinking of the direct. Ascending the grade I was fine.

In reply to planetmarshall:

Does this count ?? Thankfully a good outcome......but bloody hell !!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-34808176

May have established a new grade.... ie.... CD

In reply to Webster:


It's fine if you go part way up and then out on to its right bounding rib. Following it throughout would be harder and unpleasant.

In reply to Steve Perry:


That's how you get to it, or at least how I got to it, it was a question not an argumentative statement!

In reply to Webster:

I posted earlier you mustn't have seen it, I was thinking you meant Aladdin's direct that's why I wondered what you were on about, my mistake.
We went up Aladdin's Mirror for a short way then broke out right onto the rocky ridge which was easier to ascend.

In reply to joe.91:


Not really, though if you run into me up North in the new year I'll buy you a pint

In reply to planetmarshall:

I was only four days out. Can I have a bag of ready salted?

In reply to Jamie B:


No, it's not so denuded and should not be considered for early season. We saw the description for lean conditions in the guide book and below zero temps the day before and thought it may be okay, but it wasn't. You can climb around the turf, but even standing in one place on a belay hacks up the ground underneath. One for lean but solidly frozen conditions.

Apologies to the turf, let the flaming commence and make it a good one to discourage others!

P.s. saw 12 in the coire on Saturday, and know of one more on pygmy, quite a few vying for first winter route.

P.p.s nice to meet you Rob.

In reply to jonnie3430:
I don't want this to fall into a it was or it wasn't in condition debate and I'm not singling out anyone here but why do people climb routes when not in condition?
Take Invernookie a 2 star classic why tick it when not in proper nick and lose the whole feel and why the route was given 2 stars?

Cheers

Gaz

In reply to Gazlynn:

Because you don't know if it's in condition until you are on it?

In reply to Gazlynn:

As for invernookie in classic conditions, every time I've looked down on it from above it looks like a series of banked out snow steps. I was much more interested in it in lean conditions when it is harder and should be much more fun and interesting.

I posted the message about it being out of condition to let anyone that cares enough to know what I didn't, that invernookie has a fair amount of turf on it and there needs to be more than a surface freeze for it to be in condition.

In reply to jonnie3430:
I appreciate your feedback and my post wasn't meant to be personal. I waited a while to climb Invernookie so I got it in the condition that in my punterish mind was meant to be climbed.
It reminded me when the mess of pottage was massively banked out and people where queing up to climb Yukon Jack which you could of climbed with one axe just to get a tech V climb ticked which it obviously wasn't
It just doesn't make sense to me.

cheers

Gaz

In reply to jonnie3430:


I see your comment below and of course i know that you know your stuff, but purely taking the above comment at face value, yes you do. Invernookie (and many other routes) are well documented as needing properly frozen turf, indeed it is stated in most guidebooks. It has been an incredibly mild autumn thus far, and pretty damn wet in the last few weeks. therefore the subsurface rock/soil and groundwater will still be well above freezing. 1 propper freeze cycle is nowhere near enough to rectify that. In april/may when the subsuface has been frozen for several months it may only take a matter of hours for turf and watercourses to freeze, but early season it takes days and days of prolonged freeze to 'properly' freeze the ground.

any reports of well frozen turf above in this thread will be purely superficial and not adequate to justify climbing on it. stick to the snowed up rock routes early season guys.

In reply to Webster:

Thanks for your comments Dave, much appreciated. In your opinion you know, in mine you don't.

In reply to Webster:

Just for info there are plenty of ways to climb it without using any turf at all, if you flick through the pictures in the logbook for the route you can see that the rock slabs join together and you can avoid pulling up the sections that would normally rely on the turf. (out on the Bellhaven side)

I'm not saying to go up and climb it in any condition, just saying there are ways around it that use the rock and not the turf sections. May not be exactly the route of Invernookie but its a way up that doesn't cause any damage.

Picking the right route for the conditions is a good point obviously because no one wants to damage routes but as far as last Saturday goes I didn't see anyone being reckless and damaging turf.

Like everyone else, not trying to argue, just my observations from being there on Saturday.

The Ben is looking nice at the moment.

http://www.visitfortwilliam.co.uk/about-ben-nevis-in-fort-william-and-ben-n...

I've not climbed on there early season before. What sort of routes are typically the first to come into condition? Easy gullies? Steep mixed? Ice?

In reply to NottsRich:


Any sort of mixed. Everything else usually takes a while.

In reply to DaveHK:
Given a proper cold snap all the water fall ice can come in pretty quick too takes less than a week.

In reply to Webster:
that's not strictly true ground without snow can freeze up pretty quickly, its the snow which insulates it and makes it take a lot longer to freeze up properly. If you get cold weather without snow before the snow comes the ground will freeze much quicker than the other way around. Scotland being a wet place generally you are right and the snow comes before the ground freezes.

21/Nov/2015
Innuendo V 6 (@ Stob Coire nan Lochan)
-by Neil Adams, Brian Pollock & Timothy Miller.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

yes but my point is the ground temp will be much warmer this time of year than may, especially this year after the very mild autumn, therefore it takes everything much longer to freeze early season than late. yes a frost can happen overnight at any time of year, but it will only be superficial and not sufficient to climb on turf. it takes several freeze cycles or a prolonged hard freeze to properly bring down the temp of the subsurface and groundwater early season.

its just simple physics, it takes much longer for the same given air temp to bring ground/water to subzero when its starting out at 10deg than 1deg. alternatively it requires a much steeper temp gradient (ie much much colder air temp) to drop to sub zero in the same given time.

In reply to NottsRich:

It was lovely up there today; wasn't climbing but pottered up to the the summit via the Carn Mor Dearg arete. Very wintery conditions, but the east face is looking rather thin. A dusting of snow and some ice forming, but that's about it. The more southerly aspects are actually a bit fatter, but nothing to write home about at the moment.

In reply to James Jackson:
I was on creiss today and there was a surprising amount of neve above about 950 meters. Mostly on east facing hollows but quite extensive in places. The ground was frozen sold where exposed, mostly lower down, but snow and or heather cover were preventing freezing elsewhere. From what I could see the best snow cover seemed to be around the Ben / Mamores.

All in all a good start to the season and lots of freeze thaw and new snow in the next week around Munro height.

In reply to Webster:
Well there is a few logs from today in the winter conditions pages reporting frozen turf, and from people that have been climbing long enough to know. In lean conditions the turf can freeze quickly and what with those strong winds we've had from the north recently with sub zero temps sounds totally believable to me on the north faces.

The thrust of your argument is common sense and something most winter mountaineers are aware of. I was just pointing out the turf can freeze quite quickly or take a very long time. All sorts of factors come in to play here, but snow is a good insulator.

In reply to planetmarshall:

Looks like the Beacons saw some action this weekend too

https://www.facebook.com/groups/WinterClimbsinSouthWales/?multi_permalinks=...