UKC

Hi,

I've just purchased my first guidebook.. Eastern Grit. I've noticed there's not much info about whether you can set up a top rope at the listed crags.

Does anyone have any recommendations for the best place to find out or is it just a case of asking around about a particular place?

Thanks,

In reply to BoulderGoat: Do you mean whether it is physically possible to set up a top rope, or whether it is permitted/ frowned upon?

if the first: Generally the crags in this area are single pitch grit so relatively easy to set up a top rope.
If the second, there are many who will frown on it at any crag, but if you avoid 3 star (popular/busy) routes and don't leave ropes up if someone wants to lead them and don't try to toprope on a busy crag on a sunny weekend you should get away with it...

In reply to ceri:

Thanks for the reply. I meant if it's physically possible.

Will be courteous with others around don't worry.

I'd be taking novices so top/bottom roping is my only option within the remit of my qualification.

In reply to BoulderGoat:
I see Is there anywhere in particular you are looking at going? I'm sure if you have crags you are looking at people could give specific advice.

In reply to BoulderGoat:

What do you mean 'whether you can set up a top rope'?

There are things to belay from with a modest rack at the top of 99.9+% of the routes in a book like Eastern grit. A few nuts, krabs and a rope gives you access to the vast majority. Knowing what you're doing is more important than lots of kit.

Or do you mean where are you allowed to top-rope? If so: Everywhere. Go have fun but be considerate: avoid chaffing the crag edge with your rope, clean your feet, don't make a mess and talk to other crag users, be willing to work around each other. Do that and nobody has reasonable grounds for moaning at you. Within reason how you climb is your business, nobody else's.

jk

In reply to ceri:
Anything quite south. So Cratcliffe, Robin hood's Stride, Turningstone Edge, Duke's Quarry, Black Rocks and Shining Cliff were the main one's I was looking at.

I'll edit the OP . EDIT - oh, it won't let me.

In reply to BoulderGoat:

I believe the rules are:

1. Don't be middle aged.

2. Don't be from Birmingham.

3. Remember to extend the anchor over the edge so you don't get the rope wearing it away at the top.

A surprising number of people forget rule 3.

In reply to BoulderGoat:


I'm confused by that. What qualification limits you to only working with top-ropes?

And good luck with Duke's Quarry. Not the most scenic of spots.

In reply to BoulderGoat:

Thanks for all the replies. I've never climbed in the area so wasn't sure if it was physically possible to set up a top rope at the crags but by the sounds of it , it's entirely possible

In reply to BoulderGoat:




You managed to get a qualification without having to buy a guidebook, did you have to show you could use one?
You are qualified to take out novices, but don't know how to work out if it's physically possible to set up a to rope? Was that not part of the training and assesment? Take novices to places you know and are comfortable, go explore new venues with peers. Not much fun for novices and more likely to lead to a feck up if you're faffing about at a new venue, at least until you're really confident and competent.

In reply to BoulderGoat: Hmm, not the obvious crags then! In the south, I'd definitely go to the crag first and check them out! some Black Rocks routes are not as "direct" as the classic eastern edges, so not great for top roping, Turningstone Edge tops out into rhododendron bushes and is green and manky (often) etc.

In reply to Hyphin:

I intend to check the place out before I go. I'm just aware there are some crags that are very flat at the top without much for anchors. The point of the post was to see if anyone knew of a way of finding out about the feasibility of setting up before I drive all the way up there.

I needed to find new areas closer to where the novices are because the areas I know are too far away for a day trip. (5 hours and 9 hours away)

As for it being my first guidebook, yes, I was taught how to use one, it's just the first one I've actually owned myself and not borrowed.

In reply to ceri:

Thanks very much. Will definitely plan a day trip to figure out where's best to go.

In reply to BoulderGoat:
I think everyone is just a bit confused by how you have learned to rig a top rope without knowing that (virtually) every trad route in the country has something for a belay at the top. And are probably (hopefully unjustifiable) worried about how experienced you are?

Or do you mean will there be pre-existing anchors to rig a top-rope off (in which case usually not)?

PS what qualification? Presumably not SPA since you really wouldn't be asking this sort of question.

In reply to BoulderGoat:

Wait... you can be taught how to use a guidebook?

In reply to BoulderGoat:


I am even more interested in the 'qualification' that you hold. You have gained one without owning any guidebooks?

And bought your first harness in September?

In reply to BoulderGoat:

If I was taking novices, Burbage is where I'd be heading. Good, friendly routes, in a pleasant setting. Easy to set up top ropes, flat top to crag with lots of things to set up a belay around/with. Easy descents.

Never been to any of the ones you mention, but they aren't the first crags that spring to mind when someone says 'Eastern grit' and I suspect there is a reason for that....

In reply to BoulderGoat:

If the guide book doesn't explicitly state that top roping is not advised or not possible then the only way to tell is by checking out the top of the crag.

Not sure why many are giving you a hard time over a simple question!

In reply to BoulderGoat:

Oh, and echo the other concerns re 'qualifications'. I took novices top roping but I was a novice myself and wasnt there in any capacity as a 'qualified guide'.

Just to clarify, I assume you do know how to use natural features eg boulders and cracks, with slings and wired nuts, to rig a top rope anchor?

If you do, any of the major eastern grit crags eg stanage, Burbage, froggatt etc will be fine.

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:


Good suggestion. Bamford could also be worth looking at - slightly longer walk-in, but often quieter.

There's no point getting hung up on being in the south end of the Peak District - the extra drive isn't really enough to worry about.

But yeah, I'd struggle to think of a trad crag with no natural anchors to top rope off...

In reply to andrewmcleod:

Haha. I see what you mean. I've just never climbed in that particular area before. I've been about north yorkshire, north wales and some of scotland but always been told "we're going here today", and am aware that some places are harder to set up than others. First time I'm chosing the location so was wondering if there was a way of finding out about the difficulty of a setup or if was is just a case of asking around and having a visit.(Which it looks like its the latter!) Thought there wouldn't be much harm in asking but apparently I've ruffled a few feathers.

I didn't want to just assume that because the places I've gone before have been ok to setup a system other places will be too. Was just going to ask around about the particular crags but as there's a lovely forum here thought I'd put it to use.

To settle everyone's worries it's a basic military qualification that lets you take people out on single pitch routes or indoors.

In reply to Andy Say:

Yup.. I've been borrowing harnesses for quite a while... just finally got fed up of them always being slightly too big for me.....

Wow I'm getting destroyed today...

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:


Yup, yup I can do that.

Appreciate the help.

In reply to BoulderGoat:

Where are you based? Perhaps we could recommend some places that are easy to get too from there, and that have relatively easy top rope anchor capabilities.

In reply to deacondeacon:

Based in Cambridge.

and that would be appreciated.

Doesn't have to be 'easy' just doable if that keeps the options open a bit.

In reply to BoulderGoat:
where are the novices based?

In reply to BoulderGoat:

I'd recommend Birchen. 20 minutes off the M1, beginner friendly and good routes. Dries quickly too with winter coming.

In reply to deacondeacon:

Thanks. Added to the "check out" list.

In reply to BoulderGoat:


I'm not trying to 'destroy' you, lad. Just concerned about a qualification, 'a basic military qualification that lets you take people out on single pitch routes or indoors', that can be gained by someone who doesn't have their own basic equipment or, apparently, much idea of how to 'work' on a crag. It raises questions about basic competence to look after novices in my mind.

In reply to Andy Say:

I can understand where you're coming from. I've always has access to a harness from a "stores" that i can use for free so never bought one because I never needed to.

I appreciate that I'm relatively new to the supervising role but happy that I'm safe and competent when it comes to setting up a system (and so were the assessors apparently).

I didn't think there'd be any harm in asking if there's a handy information source when it comes to the top of crags. If I had it in front of me of course I could assess if it was a suitable venue. I wasn't just going to rock up with a group without a bit of homework.

This is me trying to settle peoples worries because obviously my question came across as if I don't have a clue what I'm doing.

In reply to BoulderGoat:

Also my satnav is saying Cambridge to Birchen is 2hours 20 minutes so quite a bit closer than your estimates which should help.

In reply to deacondeacon:

Yep thanks. I've got the area down as around the 2 hour mark. The 5 hours was north wales and 9 hours was the scottish places I've been before.

In reply to BoulderGoat:


When you are ready then you will just know.

In reply to BoulderGoat:

FWIW, if the weather's been good for a while (and hence the rock is fully dried out) then Southern Sandstone is worth considering and is also day-trippable from Cambridge.

There isn't much guidebook information about whether you can set up a top rope at any given crag because you can almost always set up a top rope at any given crag, provided that:
a) the route lengths are less than half your rope length (assuming you want what's pedantically known as a bottom rope)
b) the top and bottom of the crag are relatively accessible
c) the routes don't all wander all over the place and
d) you can set up reasonable belays on the routes as trad routes.

a) to c) should be obvious from the guidebook, and d) is the case almost everywhere to the point that you'd expect a guidebook to specify if it wasn't. Explicitly specifying that "it's possible to set up a top rope at this crag" would seem like explicitly specifying that "it's possible to climb at this crag wearing a yellow T-shirt" or something.

Again, the reason that you're getting some puzzled responses on this thread is probably that this sort of stuff seems obvious enough that people are worried, rightly or wrongly, about someone who doesn't seem to be experienced enough to be aware of it taking out novices...

In reply to mp3ferret:
I like the yoda-esque interpretation

In reply to Ramblin dave:

Thanks.

I've gone to a few places where it wasn't possible and hence the question. I didn't realise it was so un-common.

Well, I've learnt now.

In reply to BoulderGoat:

Come on then, where were they?

In reply to deacondeacon:

South coast of Cyprus. and that's probably why Was once told yeah, easy setup there, only to turn up to a single tree all on it's own.

I've been pretty wary ever since of new areas.

In reply to BoulderGoat:

I was just kidding man have a great day. Seriously Birchen would be perfect, plenty of low grade, direct routes with easy to set up belays.
Tends to be quite popular too, so you can always ask someone to check over your setup. There's a pub at the car park too so you can enjoy a pint afterwards.
It's also well covered in the Eastern Grit guidebook.

Some of the other places you were looking at wouldn't be ideal over the winter. Dukes Quarry is dry about three weeks of the year, and to be honest I probably wouldn't travel there from Matlock never mind Cambridge, and Black Rocks is north facing, and so can be bitterly cold in winter. Also the easier routes tend to wander around a bit , which isn't ideal for top roping.

In reply to BoulderGoat:

Was it sport? And hence with helpful bolted belays placed out of reach somewhere below the top of the crag?

It's specifically trad crags where you'd expect there to be belay anchors that are reachable from the top of the crag and for a modern guidebook to give you some warning if they're shonky or nonexistent.

In reply to deacondeacon:

Awesome. Sorry, exiting my defensive stance now.

You're right, great coverage in the guidebook.

Overall a successful post to narrow down possibilities even if there was a bit of argy bargy over quals.

I'll have a buddy with the same qual or one up from me to check everything over to help you guys sleep easy

In reply to Ramblin dave:

No, it was trad. He expected me to set up off that tree and that tree alone. So we went back and found somewhere else ourselves.

In reply to BoulderGoat:

Southern Sandstone (so long as the weather stays dry) sounds like what you're looking for - not too far from Cambridge, top-roping is mandatory due to the soft sandstone and access is trivial - try Harrisons, plenty of routes at low/medium grades.....

In reply to BoulderGoat:
find a crag you like, find a way of walking or scrambling up to the top. find a belay (anchor) or 2, anchor yourself in, throw down the rope, the climber then ties on and you belay him up, swap around etc. If anyone tells you not to do it etc give them the middle finger and carry on, yous have as much right ad the next person, this is is how I started out and so did alot more people.

Most importantly have alot of fun and learn as you go. hope that helps you out

In reply to BoulderGoat: If you go to Birchen choose the belay first then the route. Quite a few popular routes have awkward belays or belays a bit back from the edge.

In reply to BoulderGoat:

Interesting. Where specifically? Happy Valley? Pyla?
Just wondering as I 've not come across anywhere in Cyprus similar to where you describe.

In reply to ryan p:


Class.

In reply to Willi Crater:

It was about 20mins from Pyla. Pyla was where we ended up going afterwards.

In reply to BoulderGoat:


Greko?

In reply to Willi Crater:

No, in the other direction.

In reply to BoulderGoat:


Even more interesting. Where exactly, or is it a secret?

In reply to Willi Crater:

It was a slightly inland outcrop. A bit of an intense google mapping session leads me to believe it was near Oroklini.

In reply to BoulderGoat:


Well if you have any info that would help me to locate it then it would be appreciated. Rough lat/long from Google maps for example. Cheers.

In reply to BoulderGoat:

Driving from Cambridge, I would echo others advice that the extra distance to Burbage/ Birchen/ Frogatt is worthwhile.
But to fill you in on the suitability of the southern grit:
Cratcliffe- high and not so many beginners routes.
Robin hood's Stride- fantastic bouldering.
Turningstone Edge- bit of a jungle.
Duke's Quarry- wet and intimidating.
Black Rocks- a fine crag, not many routes suitable for top roping, but I have seen groups at it here.
Shining Cliff- quiet, lots of trees for belays and has a bunkhouse at the bottom of the crag.

In reply to BoulderGoat:

Make sure you take some long slings, the best belay will be round a 'kin great big boulder which might be someway back. That is one of the most important lessons you will ever learn.

Others have already mentioned best ethics, the most important is not to occupy the best routes all day with ropes that remains empty a majority of the time, or to rig an abseil down similar. I always worked on the basis that smaller groups were easy to manage, keep interested and hence less impact on other crag users. I'm not sure what certificate you have long time since I had anything to do with military climbing but did get my JSRCI from Towyn/Capel Curig back in 1987 when I was very young.

Have fun.

In reply to BoulderGoat: haha! Civvies eh? Birchens a great spot, loads of options for setting up anchors. Pub is a definite bonus. This venue gets lots of group use, so people will not to be mardy if you turn up to top rope.
Have a good time, gritstone is real climbing!

In reply to Willi Crater:

To be completely honest "near Oriklini" is about as accurate as I can make it. It was a couple of years ago and we ran away about as quickly as we got there. I wasn't the driver either. I'd be surprised if anyone actually seriously uses it for climbing.

In reply to Zoro:

If you do go up Birchen, pls don't use the Nelson Monument as an anchor. You'll see what I mean.
It's a pleasant walk in, you don't need to strike up the steep bank on your right. Just follow the path up.
Oh and park in the overflow, not the pub carpark!

In reply to BoulderGoat:

A lot of the grit crags have big boulders at the top of many routes so you can pretty much set up TR in seconds.

In reply to ryan p:

There are other considerations here, if you are the only experienced person then who checks the people at the bottom are tied in correctly etc?

When I take our daughter climbing my friend and I go together, then one of us can lead the route, set an anchor and then lower off while cleaning the gear leaving a nice bottom rope ready for the kids to climb. Once they are done climb the route again and then either abseil off or move the anchor to the top of the next route (if accessible from the top). Of course that requires two competent people rather than one...

In reply to treforsouthwell:

In that case you probably want what is sometimes known as a "bottom rope" so you can belay from the bottom.

In reply to treforsouthwell:
should somebody be climbing if they are not able to tie on ? my answer would be no. different with a kid though.

In reply to Neil Williams:

now that will cause issues, atleast with top roping the route is ready to be climbed by another pair as soon as they top out. bottom top roping is for indoors really isn't it ?

In reply to ryan p:


Haha, of course someone can go climbing if they can't tie on, and after about an hour they'll probably be experts at the oh so complicated figure of eight knot.

In reply to ryan p:


Now surely you must be taking the piss?
Loads of people belay from the bottom when top roping, it's easier to keep an eye on things and you don't have kids running around at the top of crags. In fact belaying in this style is compulsory on Southern Sandstone (unless you're soloing) as there is less abrasion caused to the rock.

In reply to ryan p:


Somebody needs to tell about 50% of those at Stanage on any nice day of the week then.

In reply to deacondeacon:


Quite. How are people supposed to learn to climb otherwise? Just at walls?

In reply to ryan p:

No, it's a perfectly valid way to climb anywhere (and as someone else said, the only way other than soloing to climb on Southern Sandstone). Not clogging up routes for hours is a matter of etiquette, not a matter of what type of protection you happen to wish to use.

In any case, if you'd just finished a route in that style and someone wanted to lead at somewhere like Stanage, you could simply pull the rope down, they can start leading and you can then walk round to the top to de-rig well before they are likely to get there.

In reply to ryan p:

Only if you plan to top out, if you are supervising a group then I'd imagine the climbers stay at the bottom except when climbing for safety reasons (as we generally do with kids too).

In reply to Neil Williams:

spend a little time teaching a re threaded figure 8. this Is how in was taught, I wasn't allowed until I was able to tie my own knot. my local wall won't let you climb unless you can do this also.

In reply to Neil Williams:

ok doke i will be doing this with the kids then. I was under the impression that it was seriously frowned upon to bottom top rope on a crag, thanks

In reply to deacondeacon:

I'm not taking the piss. I wasn't actually meaning young kids.

In reply to ryan p:

Nah, except for some very uptight people. What is frowned upon is hogging routes, particularly starred ones, that's all.

In reply to ryan p:

That's a very strict wall. Every wall I've been to allows an experienced climber (in practice two experienced climbers if they want to climb as well) to sign in up to two novices. The wall is to me the best place to learn these things under supervision.

In reply to ryan p:

Oh yeah? What wall is it?

In reply to Neil Williams:

when I first wanted to try climbing i was sent away from Dundee wall unless I wanted to pay for a 4 hour course. There was no experienced climber with us though so I went and payed for an outdoor course instead. learned to find a belay and anchor in then throw down the rope and bring the climber up.
was a great way for me to learn

In reply to BoulderGoat:

Can you place traditional protection (nuts, hexes, cams) and evaluate good placements?

Can you link multiple placements using an equalised rigging rope?

Do you know how to extend said rig over the crag-edge and protect it from abrasion?

If "yes" to all of the above you will be able to rig bottom-ropes at every single crag in Eastern Grit.

If "no" seek further training.

In reply to deacondeacon:

.

Dukes Quarry is dry about three weeks of the year, and to be honest I probably wouldn't travel there from Matlock never mind Cambridge

Great Crack at Dukes Qy is one of Derbyshire's best HVSs! Or it was when I did it nearly 20 years ago. But no, not suitable for the OP.

In reply to Rog Wilko:

Totally agree. Done (quickly!) in the gathering gloom of a late November afternoon, some 20 years ago too, with Jim and Will Perrin (RIP).

Always meant to go back for Dharma - but, as yet, haven't. It's a place that's perilously easy to forget about and, yes, entirely unsuitable for the OP.

Mick

In reply to Rog Wilko:

Ok it's worth going once, if you're on the way past (to somewhere good).

In reply to Mick Ward:

Sadly, I did it twice but never got to lead it! I'd been itching to get on it and for some unknown reason didn't have anyone to do it with so did it on a shunt the first time. Then a couple of years later I teamed up with a mate with the plan to do Great Crack and Original Route on High Tor the same day and lost the toss.

In reply to Rog Wilko:

Even so... Great Crack and Original Route on the same day must be a superb combination.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

It was! It's still the only time I've climbed grit and limestone on the same day.