UKC

I have been climbing Trad for just over a year now, around once a week during the spring and summer. As the nights draw in I'll be back to indoor climbing again until April/May time apart from the odd weekend.

I have climbed quite a lot of VS's and led around 5 (some more than once). I just did my first on-sight last week (the others I seconded before leading) and it went pretty well although it was quite an easy VS.

Outdoor sport I generally lead 6a or 6a+ but can often lead 6b indoors.

Does any have any advice on the best way to improve, I'd be very happy to be able to confidently on-sight a VS and to lead the odd HVS?

In reply to treforsouthwell:

Mileage. Mileage. Mileage. That's the best grounding in trad.

It would be easy if you were based in the Peak, you could just get out on Stanage or Burbage nearly every weekend, even in the winter. Problem is, with limestone, 'easy' routes (say sub-VS) often ain't easy 'cos they're so polished. This particularly applies in the Avon Gorge where some of the lower grade stuff is polished, run-out, poorly protected and imho, bloody dangerous. If I were you, I'd avoid Avon for the time being. Maybe head up the Wye valley (though I'm no expert on that). Next summer, get to North Wales, the Peak, maybe the Lakes.

If you read Goucho's thread about style, there's a lot of wisdom (mostly emanating from him!)

The problem with trad is when it all goes to shit and grades go right out the window. That's when mileage stands you in good stead.

Last tip. If you get a bad feeling (literally) in your gut about a route/pitch, just walk away.

Good luck!

Mick

In reply to treforsouthwell:

Hi there. With those sports grades you can climb vs all day technically. So get the mileage in and your head carm. And get on one. The hardest part of any climb is to commit in the first place. But if u look in the guide at a few routes. In the style that best suits u. Then turn up at the crag and see what happens. Keep them to yourself. So there's no pressure to get on lead. And then u can look up. Visualise being on it. And belief that you can get up it in the first place. Enjoy the fight. And good luck.
Luke.

In reply to Mick Ward:

Spot on.

In reply to treforsouthwell:

the advice above is good. if you have an experienced second they can often give useful feedback on your runners. aim to always have at least two pieces of gear in that will stop you hitting the floor.

In reply to treforsouthwell:

Keep up the indoors over the winter, but don't expect it to improve your trad. It's pretty hard to get enough trad done over the winter to make any headway. I would focus on arriving in spring with a good bunch of partners, a ticklist of routes your psyched for, and a well-organised schedule for getting out a lot.

In reply to treforsouthwell:

I'd focus on keeping your general fitness up over the winter as it's tricky to replicate the typical holds of gritstone indoors. This will make the physical aspects of the transition to grit and limestone a bit friendlier. Climb as much as u can over winter on as many different types of holds as u can, both roped routes and also bouldering if possible. As soon as the clocks go forward and it dries up get straight out there and enjoy!

Despite the cold winds I like to climb at Stanage outside the summer months when other crags are out of condition. Majority of Stanage is exposed, takes no drainage and is fast drying. Therefore if a mild, dry week does come a cropper over winter it's always worth considering a trip there if possible.

Jamie

Thanks for the comments so far.

I live in Bristol and I normally climb in the Wye Valley (mainly Wintours leap and Wynecliff) as it's near to work and pretty quiet.

The person I usually climb with is a slightly better climber than me but has the same amount of Trad experience (it was my idea to buy a rack in the first place).

Luke makes a good point, the hardest part can often be committing to the climb in the first place. I haven't ever fallen on a VS (or an HVS for that matter) but it's a bit different when you have to trust your own gear and commit to the moves. I don't think I'll ever be an E grade climber, but to be honest I'd be very happy climbing VS and the odd HVS all day if it was all totally in control

In reply to Mick Ward:

I must admit I have been scared on some VD's as they can be so dirty and polished with shit gear. I'll generally avoid any routes below HS for that reason (and due to lack of interesting moves).

In reply to alasdair19:

If anything I think I tend to over gear, maybe that's not such a bad thing. I have been trying recently to let it run out a bit once there is plenty of rope out. I do love the long Wynecliff routes, my last one was 38m and I placed around 17 bits of gear.

In reply to Mick Ward:


Further to what Mick says, I'm going to assume that by 'improving' you mean 'climb higher grades', since it's the most obvious way to measure improvement. In which case, I'd argue that mileage alone isn't enough. You need to actually push yourself to get onto harder climbs, and be prepared to fail on them. Go climbing with people who climb harder than you (though maybe not *too* much harder). You might find that your standard of what's possible for you will be reset, and you'll no longer think that you'll never be an E grade climber.

In reply to treforsouthwell:

Find some time over the winter to visit crags and quarries where you can practice gear placements until you know you can place totally bombproof gear. Walk around the base of a crag doing gear placements, and testing them by attaching slings and standing in them until your full weight has loaded them. Do it with the full range of gear that you have.
Have you developed a good eye for the less obvious placements such as threads, chock stones and small spikes etc and are you good at placing gear in horizontal cracks? Have your routes included any traverse work and do you fully understand the importance of protecting a second.

You've had no leader falls yet but if you do ever have one, as you fly past your top piece of gear it will not be the time to be thinking ,'I wish I'd spent more time practicing my gear placements.' The confidence that you will derive from knowing that your gear is as good as it could possibly be, will see you fully charged up for the no doubt fabulous weather we will get next year.

I am not being in any way disrespectful by noticing your comment that you climb with someone who only has the same level of experience as yourself which could mean that you might be missing a trick or two.
Good luck.

In reply to treforsouthwell:

To mix things up this winter while mainly climbing indoors I'm doing a training program for the aerobic, anaerobic and power aspects just to have a plan and stay motivated. Hoping it will stop the 'bumbling around' days at the gym. Might be worth a try?

When it's crap weather, now and again we will go out to the local chossy crag and top rope in trainers, set challenges ect just for fun. I like the gear placement idea, might try some aid climbing next time spinning off from that.

In reply to Ann S:

>Walk around the base of a crag doing gear placements, and testing them by attaching slings and standing in them until your full weight has loaded them.

That's an interesting idea, I hadn't thought of standing on a sling to test some gear.


I've certainly placed threads and spike runners before. It's a bit tricky to stop spike runners from pulling upwards as you climb past them - I know some people think cams work well to weight them down


I must admit I normally reach for a cam in these cases - my partner has done the odd camming nut or hex placement but I don't really trust them not to pull out.

>Have your routes included any traverse work and do you fully understand the importance of protecting a second.

Yes, I must admit to disliking traverses but have done a few, usually placing gear along one rope and running out the other so it can be clipped further above to protect the second and help with the rope drag.

In reply to treforsouthwell:

While at one of our Lancashire limestone crags I got my newbie mate to test gear in this way loading a foot sling. He placed what appeared to be a perfect cam in a vertical crack, loaded it and it instantly popped. We replaced it as closely as we could in it's original position and this time no popping. Go figure.

Weight down dubious slings in spikes with your approach shoes carried for the purpose. That's a win win cos the sling stays put and your second gets to carry your shoes. Don't waste precious cams for this job. Or carry the guide book in a zip up bag and use that as your weight.

Practice placing nuts in horizontals for when you haven't got the right cam. Read about nuts in opposition; a black art I've never mastered.

Sounds like you're doing fine

In reply to treforsouthwell:
There's only 3 pieces of advice I'd ever give someone relatively new to climbing.

1) Learn to walk before you run.

2) Don't do something you're uncomfortable with just because someone else thinks it a good idea.

And the most important of all

3) Enjoy your climbing - it's a hobby, not an audition to join the Knights of the Templar

In reply to Ann S:

>Weight down dubious slings in spikes with your approach shoes carried for the purpose.

That's funny

I reality I haven't found any VS's we have climbed hard enough to protect that I have needed to resort to things like weighting down spike runners and placing nuts in horizontals. Maybe it's something I need to learn if I ever push the grade further.

I must admit we have somewhat cheated by buying loads of guy, I normally carry two full sets of nuts, two sets of offsets, brass nuts and offsets, a full set of demon cams and a set of dragon cams...perhaps that's lazy?

In reply to treforsouthwell:

I see you're in training for winter climbing by carrying a bit of extra gear!

One last skill to practice is placing gear blind, without faffing around. Sometimes you can't always get a Mark 1 eyeball to assess the size of gear you need so learn to do this by feel alone. I was doing an onset attempt at a VS on one of our gritstone quarries and had to do a strenuous layaway off to the left, so couldn't visually check the width of the crack way off to the right. I reckoned it would take size 6 nut which I placed, tugged once and it popped. Still laying hard away to the left, I replaced it with a size 7, tugged twice and it stayed put.
I carried on upwards for another metre and then decided I couldn't make the crux move and told my mate I was going to climb back and lower off the nut. I climbed back down to it, put my full weight on it -and then it popped. The cam below it held, otherwise I would have decked out. Grow eyes in your finger tips.

In reply to treforsouthwell: what mick says is right about Avon, it can be run out and dangerous. Having said that, we are coming up to the winter, and the single best way of getting better at trad over the winter is to climb outside when ever you can put up with the cold. And the one advantage of avon is that because its mainly sou facing, it drys quickly and gets warm, even in the very depths of winter. Wye by comparison is more west facing so doesn't catch the sun until the afternoon. It can also be run out and you have to pick routes carefully there. Goblin combe though is a very good spot for someone in your position. Unlike avon and wye it is not quarried rock and so is less compact. Gear placements are easier to find and often pretty secure. Routes like bifur and Elrond make good starter vs's. There are hs's which also will do you well. Then there is also fairy cave quarry which is much more slabby. Many of the routes are reasonably soft and there are a great number of routes in the hs to vs bracket. The main thing is practice. Get out as often as you can. The reality is that at this sort of grade indoor training does very little for your trad climbing. You will be strong but unable to capitalise on that strength without developing an eye for placements and reading the rock. And the only way you will get better at that is miles...

In reply to treforsouthwell: jesus... i just read you rack! Ditch half of it for starters! Thats two full racks worth!

In reply to treforsouthwell:

I don't think I'll ever be an E grade climber, but to be honest I'd be very happy climbing VS and the odd HVS all day if it was all totally in control

If you can climb sport 6b, then you are physically capable of leading E1, it's all in your head. Climbing is such a head game, for trad, that is what you need to work on. You have to believe that you can climb the route, that the gear you place is good etc. The moment you start to have doubts, you are making it less and less likely that you'll succeed. So, how do you train your head? As others have said, lots of climbing.

In reply to treforsouthwell:

Mileage! Last winters training has long worn off but my trad grade is improving right now just from mileage and confidence.

Try girth or clove hitching slings to spikes when appropriate.

Ditch half your rack.

In reply to treforsouthwell:

If you really want to improve in trad, you have to be able to trust your gear to do its job. Practice at ground-level to get the hang of all the myriad placement styles is extremely valuable, but when you are on the sharp end above your gear, the thing that will eventually hold you back just as much as pumped arms is your subconcious, telling you that if you fall the gear will rip and you will die.
You can wait for the inevitable unintended fall, shit yourself, and then hope it never happens again. (like me: I took my first lead fall, on my first E1, with my first cam, and got my first broken rib when it ripped, all in one route!)
Or you can get ahead of the curve by choosing a route with safe fall-zones and plentiful bomber gear (ask someone with lots of experience to recommend one if you like), lace it up with mini-fortresses, and deliberately take some falls on gear. Start small. Maybe some gear will rip, but there should be another piece just below it as a backup. This will teach you more about what placements are good (or not) than bounce testing them in a footloop. You will also learn how to land on the rock when the rope takes you and how to remove loaded gear (very valuable skill, both personally and financially!)
If you can trust your gear to do its job, you can then free your brain to think about the moves and you will find you are able to climb more fluidly and successfully.
Have fun, be safe, wear a helmet, and good luck!

In reply to beardy mike:

I've climbed with half the rack before, but then reached a point where I don't have the right piece of gear and ended up messing around for ages trying to find something that fits.

I would add I do normally climb 30-40m routes...

In reply to treforsouthwell: well I would suggest that is because you haven't had enough miles to learn how to place the gear you've got, not that you need what you're taking. 30m pitch or not, generally you you will be able if you look well to find good gear from a set of two nuts. You need to learn how to be creative with placements and spot alternatives rather than relying on finding the perfect placement, or being able to put gear in precisely where you look in the first instance. I normally climb 30m pitches too, mostly multipitch and I often do it with one and half sets of nuts and a few cams. I'm not say ing that because I think thats what you should do, rather that if you are observant and well practiced at placing gear you will find good gear which what you've got. But then thats practice and experience. The thing is if you climb with an enormous rack, sure you'll always have the right piece but you won't be forced to learn efficiency which is a key skill as you progress. Why not drop one of the sets of nuts and see if you miss it? Then drop certain sizes and see if you miss those. As you do more you will find the sizes you like and place the most. And it will vary from one area to the next. For example in the lakes people often don't carry much large gear but carry three of the mid sized nuts. In avon micro wires and small gear are invaluable. At wintours, micro to mid sized cams are useful for breaks. Anyway you get what I'm saying right?

In reply to treforsouthwell:

I was stagnating around the VS/HVS level for a while and wanted to break into the E grades. I know it's not quite the same position that you are in, but here are a few things that worked for me:

- Get stronger fingers. A winter of indoor bouldering on steeper ground made a huge difference for me. Ok, you're never going to have to pull on small holds on steep walls on most trad climbs at HVS, but the stronger your fingers are the easier it will make holding on to any type of hold on any type of terrain.

- Read 'How To Climb Hard Trad' by Dave Macleod. 'Hard' is in the eye of the beholder and many of the tips he gives can translate well to any grade of trad climbing. A lot of what he says is about eliminating uncertainty when you're on the route. If you have already thought about key places that you need to place gear to avoid a ground fall then you don't need to worry about this on lead, and that helps with placing less unnecessary gear too.

- Do some indoor fall practice. I know it's completely not the same as taking a fall on trad gear but it definitely worked for me and helped me make progress in getting over the fear of falling.

- Mileage. Lots of people have said this and it's true. However, if you want to improve then you have to get mileage in at a grade which pushes you. It's a fine line between having a good day out climbing and scaring yourself silly though.

David

In reply to treforsouthwell:

Check out Shorn Cliff in the Wye Valley. Plenty of VS routes for you to try, most of which have plenty of gear placements and not too polished. Wynd Cliff Quarry is good for the winter as it is a bit of a sun trap and sheltered - there are a couple trad routes here. Stay away from Wynd Cliff Main until you get some more confidence as I have found all the routes here feel about a grade higher for some reason.

In reply to treforsouthwell:
Mate,
It sounds like you're in the same sort of place as me. There has been some really good advice given, especially by Mr Ward (wise old sage ).

If you're climbing the sport grades you say then, as has been said, you're more than good enough to climb harder trad than you are at the moment.
Trad is a funny old thing, and it's surprising what the head does. The most important thing is that you are climbing as safely as possible, especially on lead. Really practice getting your gear as bomber as possible and place it like you're actually gonna fall on it.
Don't push too hard, stay within your comfort zone and get the mileage in. You will have days where you'll jibber up easy stuff, then there will occasionally be 'Lion' days where you'll feel like you could take on anything. But listen to your head and don't put yourself on offer - if it doesn't feel right leave it - it will be there another day.
Pushing on indoors will help with strength which I know helps with confidence (especially on steep or pumpy stuff). Also practice clip drops on lead indoors it will prepare you for when you fall off outside.
Also don't ever think I'll never lead this grade or that grade, you never know.
Most of all have fun, oh and don't forget to breath

In reply to treforsouthwell:

Interesting reading peoples opinions on this. First I'd reiterate that Mick's and Goucho's advice is well worth keeping in mind. I'd disagree with ciderslider's opinion on your sport grades compared to what you climb trad, as I don't think he looked at your logged climbs. For solid VS you'd probably be having a good success rate onsighting (leading) 6a to 6a+ indoors and out, as well as getting up some 6b+ routes clean after a bit of work. That's not far off where you are now, but to transfer that to the trad side of things you need mileage on rock. With that mileage and those sport grades that would also get you up some soft HVS routes. I think for solid HVS you'd be looking at a good hit rate on 6b onsight as far as the physical side of things, and that would get you up some soft E1s, but again you need the climbing mileage on rock for the technical/route reading side of things to go with the physical ability. You say you're climbing indoors over winter, and so you should find it possible if you can climb a few times a week, and given your current ability, to get to onsighting 6b regularly by spring, so all you need then is the rock mileage in the spring to exceed the goal stated in your last paragraph of the original post. But if you don't get there as quick as expected keep at it, as some people progress quicker than others.

In reply to rich H0001:

I've led a couple of routes on the main Cliff, Questor and Strike Direct - I was happy with both of these but I think they are a little soft for VS.

I seconded Sinew (tough but it is HVS), Fibre (maybe will go back and lead), Cadillac (tough) and Cardiac (maybe would go back and lead).

I haven't tried the quarry yet, maybe worth a look oneday

In reply to beardy mike:

I can see your point and I'm sure you are right about being efficient and creative placing gear. On the other hand if you can't find any gear that fits then what do you do, climb on into a runout or bail and hope the current gear holds. I don't think it's something I quite have the guys for just yet....

In reply to treforsouthwell:

6b+ in order to be an hvs leader? I thought the cad was only meant to be 6c?

In reply to treforsouthwell:

Something nearly always fits well. I have never climbed with more than one set of cams, 1 set of nuts and one set of offsets and been wishing I took more on routes up tl 50m! Except for routes where the guide specifically says to take more of something

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:

The thing about sport/indoor-trad equivalence is that the margin depends hugely on experience, and from individual to individual. I don't think there's a sensible guide to it at all.

Very experienced trad climbers will have basically no margin between their sport onsight and trad onsight grades: they're able to climb as hard as they physically can while placing gear and being confident about what they will and won't fall off. But someone with much less experience on trad might be climbing 7a indoors without being able to lead VS (sounds ridiculous, but happens all the time on routes like The File). As such, suggestions of what indoor or sport grade might match up to a trad grade for an inexperienced climber aren't much use. Especially when you throw grit into the equation!

In reply to Jon Stewart:


But we're not talking about very experienced climbers working in the mid E grades. Also, there's more context to this -- which you've completey ignored--, which includes the area and the routes that the chap is climbing: limestone around Bristol. I would maintain that within that context, and given my caveat about mileage on rock also being required, that what I said on grades is a reasonably good estimate ( I'm not claiming any exact correlation). I don't think you'd find a solid VS leader in this area who couldn't, if they wanted to as many people don't climb indoors, onsight 6a to 6a+ indoors and get up the odd 6b+ on a redpoint basis.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:


Maybe, I dunno. I just think it's far too temperament-dependent to be quantified. Some people freak out massively on trad even after the 50th lead, despite leading hard indoors. Others quickly get to grips with it and are soon climbing somewhere in the region of their limit. What you say might be about average, I don't know, but the spread is huge.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Well, yes, there are those who just never get the head for trad, and at the other extreme those who'll sail close to the wind. I can only give an opinion based on those I've climbed with .

In reply to wurzelinzummerset: I would say your estimates are conservative. Sure I'm experienced, but I have been a steady e1 leader with the odd multi pitch e2 and at no point did I lead harder than 6c insight. Most of the time I was a 6b leader. And I wouldn't say I'm particularly out of control style of leader, probably the opposite actually. Indoors is vitually irrelevant when it comes to trad lead grade. Knowing your capability is more important, and that's where experience is the all and end all...

In reply to beardy mike:


I wouldn't say indoor grade is irrelevant. It gives a measure of physical ability, which is one of the factors influencing trad lead grade. To put what I said earlier another way, and keeping in mind that the original poster said he was climbing inside over winter, then if you are onsighting the majority of 6a routes you try indoors then physically there's nothing stopping you becoming a solid VS leader. The fact that the moves on 6a indoors may feel physically harder than on a VS is offset by the fact that you have to hang around placing gear on trad, and that you might be downclimbing on occasion if you find you've misread the route. If you're onsighting the majority of 6b routes you try indoors then physically that should put you in a position where HVS is no problem as a solid lead grade. Okay, maybe with the 6b you'd probably be doing a lot of E1s too, but as a rough guide I don't see a big problem.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset:

I know I can climb HVS, it just feels a bit too tenuous and tiring to commit to actually leading it just yet.

Looking at my logbook it seems I have climbed 26 VS's (including repeats) and 2 HVS's so far. How many VS routes have people here who are leading HVS climbing before they started on HVS?

Trefor.

In reply to Cheese Monkey:

>Something nearly always fits well. I have never climbed with more than one set of cams, 1 set of nuts and one set of offset

Maybe a personal question, but is that out of choice or because of the cost?

In reply to treforsouthwell:

Yes he does and it's all good advice but just make sure u know the difference between, say, sport 6b and a UK Trad technical grade of 6b. They are not necessarily the same. Forgot to mention that before.

Enjoy!

J

In reply to treforsouthwell:

Choice. I normally would not be able to use that much gear trad climbing. Forgot I take micro nuts/ brass ones too

In reply to Rocknast:

Yes I know the grades I climb at fairly well, but it's also a bit variable between locations

In reply to wurzelinzummerset and op:
You're right in as much as indoor ability indicates a base level of fitness. It does not however indicate ability to read natural holds or the knowledge of how to use said natural holds. Climbing in Avon is substantially different to climbing in ucr is it not? What you said not objectionable, but just like you might be able to lead 6b and e2, you may also be able to lead 6b but only able to cope with a severe mentally. Thats what I mean when i say indoor ability at this grade is pretty much irrelevant. Whereas it has everything to do with experience rather than outright physicality, and I'd say that once you want to start climbing e1-e2, that's where some sort of systimatic form of indoor training starts to pay dividends. I'm not saying strength doesn't play a part below that, rather that knowing how to pull on holds efficiently, place your feet well, how to position your body etc. on natural holds rather than overhanging or very steep plastic, and how to place gear quickly and optimising what you've got is more likely to help. And to that end, I'd suggest that climbing outside through the winter at least as often as you can manage will help not lose ground over this period. Generally I've found that a winter of plastic does not improve my grade if thats all I do, whereas the first winter i exclusively climbed outside i went from being a solid HVS leader to an E1 leader. The following winter when i repeated i started climbing E2.

We have excellent sport climbing near us in the shape of cheddar which allows you to learn that kinethetic awareness and geometric awareness of holds and the way to use them, and it is a less alien environment than indoors - the skills you gain are more transferable. There are also plenty of suntrap venues where you can make the most of the winter sun, unprotectable, runnout avon being one of them :/ . Take a trip to a warm climate for your holiday to push yourself. And when you have to because of weather or time constraints, go inside. It keeps you interested in what you are doing, gives you goals as you find routes which inspire you and you get better too. And if you have a friend who will lead you winter routes ( and the inclination), its good for general fitness and i can guarantee it will alter your view of gear placement options. And op as for your question about finance or preference, for me its definitely preferance. Having a double set of everything means My harness is heavy and cluttered. Its more difficult to find pieces on your harness and its harder to hang on, simples. As i say, all you have to do is try with one set less and see what you miss. If you make a concious effort to experiment you soon learn what you need and what you don't. You may not fancy getting run out, but I can pretty much guarantee that necessity is the master of invention and that you will learn. Up to you, but I know from experience teaching that people often do not benefit from having a huge rack.

In reply to treforsouthwell:


I'd say from that the main thing holding you back is determination. It doesn't sound like you really want to get into higher grades.

In reply to beardy mike:


I never said it did. In fact I thought I'd made sure I'd indicated (several times) that I was talking about the physical aspect of it and that I recognised that rock mileage was important. I've not said go down to UCR climb 6b and you can lead HVS.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset: and didn't say you did Its quite clear that the Op has sufficient technical ability to climb E2. What hes not got is milage, no amount of indoors will help that, hence saying indors is irrelevant... And I know youre not saying that it will... But you do keep talking about equivalent grades and what he should be able to do... Its such a wide margin in my expereince that its not a particularly helpful measure... Just doesn't mean much.

In reply to beardy mike:

It seems we disagree on a lot of things, including the merits or otherwise of certain routes at a particular local crag last time I came across you climbing! However, I agree he needs mileage, I don't agree that he would be likely to have the technical ability for all-round E2 just yet (although perhaps he'll prove me wrong and onsight one of those fingery E2s on the bottom lift of Wyndcliffe quarry). And I never used the word "equivalent" which has a meaning I wouldn't have thought appropriate.

To the OP: you asked about how many VS routes people had led before going on to HVS, and I think you'll find that varies widely for reasons already discussed in this thread. Personally, I tend to trad climb cautiously being very aware of the possible consequences when it goes wrong, so still treat HVS with a lot of respect. I enjoy trad climbing where I feel comfortable well within my limited abilities and leave the grunting, sweating and falling to bolts.

In reply to wurzelinzummerset: haha, looks like we're both doing it now... I said he most likely has the TECHNICAL ability, which is not the same as the ability. If you climb 6b sometimes, you could also climb E2. Its a question of doing the right routes and building up to it. I can't remember which route we disagreed about, although I do remember disagreeing on it though Technical ability in my book is basically your french sport grade. Trad is obviously a totally different kettle of fish, just like you've said. Maybe you didn't say equivalent, but there was lots of talk about 6a meaning you should be able to be a competent VS leader, my only point is that is a very limiting statement. At both ends of the scale. People on here sometimes read stuff as gospel (not suggesting the op is by the way, just that some people do) and I'd say its better to leave this sort of thing rather more open ended. As I've said, I know guys who lead 6a-6b and who are not comfortable on HS, less sometimes. And not through want of trying either, they just don't have the head for it. So despite being technically able to climb E2, they weren't mentally able to. To me trad climbing, up to around E2 is not about physical prowess, its whether you mentally able to cope with the pressures. In reality I'm not sure we're disagreeing, just that maybe you have a more rigid idea of what technical ability leads to? Not sure really. All I do know is that this is a very very complex topic and its so much about an individuals attitudes to risk and its management, about how they translate their technical ability into that situation, about their gear placing skills and their stress management skills amongst others. Anyway, same old. What was the route we disagreed on?

In reply to beardy mike:

What you are saying makes sense.

Although technically speaking doesn't a French Sport grade include both Technical and Physical. That is you can have an F6a which is a 6a because it has a short technical section or an F6a which is much easier technically but quite long and tiring?

However for british Trad grades the technical grade is "just" the hardest move while the adjective grade includes both how strenuous the route is and also how dangerous it is (difficulty to protect). That means you have can a VS 4a (Bold) or a VS 5a (technical), but if it was both very Bold and Technical 5a it would be an E1 5a (Bold)?

I think I'm fine for up to 5b technical (which is in theory F6a) but can struggle on some VS's which are strenuous (and are made more so by having to stop and place gear). I think if you bolted a 40m VS 4c which had a lot of layback it might end up being an F6a for that reason....

In reply to treforsouthwell:


Yes...


Not likely, unless it's 4c moves for every cm of that 40m...

In reply to treforsouthwell: Well yes, the French grade is for a combination of how difficult a sequence of moves are, and that can include whether they are physically difficult, technically difficult etc.

Having said that, an English 5c move is about as hard as an average 6b move. So neglecting whether or not you're mentally equipped to deal with climbing an E2, in terms of the hardest move, you should be able to climb it if you onsight 6b. So really we should be taking the technical aspect out of this.

The trouble with trad climbing is that its emotional (to a far greater extent than sport climbing for obvious reasons). So you need to remove that emotion from the equation. When I say emotion I'm talking about fear, doubt, adrenaline fuelled anxiety etc. Looking at it unemotionally it's clear that if you can climb 6b, you can climb E2 - the moves aren't any harder are they. So what's left? Controlling your head and improving your skillset so that you climb as efficiently as you can so that your brain doesn't have the leeway to screw you over and knowing what you are capable of doing.

The reality is that by and large your body is far more capable that you give it credit for. It's usually that nagging self doubt and fear creeping in which leads you to over grip, choose your gear badly or literally shut down with worry rather than you not being able to do the route. Its usually a concious (or worse sub concious) decision or set of decisions which shut you down. So try to learn to assess your climbing as you're doing it - if you feel fear, acknowledge it rather than trying to supress it. Sure you might get away with supressing it for a while but it'll get you in the end. Instead if you know its there and that eventually it will shut you down, you can do something about it - put another piece of gear in, take a rest, place a high solid piece and retreat back to somewhere that you can regroup, work out the moves, where the next rest or gear is and then launch your attack with a strategy in place. If the strategy is the wrong one, change it until it works. You see plenty of climbers (myself included) getting into something and being unwilling/unable to change their plan. Becoming more self aware is pretty important in this game and learning to play to your strengths.

All this said, climbing in our area with the exception of Cheddar is pretty steady in terms of it's steepness. It's rare that you'll find yourself unable to stand in balance on your feet. So remember that and when you feel yourself getting panicky or like you're in trouble, take a second. Breathe, look around, take time to assess your position and the holds which surround you, and the gear options which are available. Mostly there will be a way to make your situation more comfortable. Sure, you might need to move a bit but surely its better to move slightly and be comfortable rather than stay where you are and get stressed?

In reply to treforsouthwell:

Dark nights don't mean outdoors is off limits. We had a night out till 10pm this week with the head torches. It could be argued the grade is slightly harder as the light casts a lot of shadows but the exposure and fear diminishes as the night hides the height. The only change we made was we didn't push the grade quite so hard. Not to mention the fact it was extreme fun doing the bbq sausages.

In reply to treforsouthwell:


Extend the runners (or use a larger sling on the spike). Equally important with nuts (though maybe not too much on the first couple of bits above the ground). Less important with cams - the main reason you might extend them (other than reducing drag) is to save you losing them when they walk into the crack!

In reply to Ann S:
Brilliant

In reply to Potemkin:

Thank you