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Hello,
I'm keen to climb harder and am about to get keen on training again. I'm stocky and build muscle easily, cycle a lot and so have big legs and calves. Is there a way I can train so that my legs weigh less? (What a strange question.) If I train hard now (bouldering,) I'll put on more muscle in my arms and shoulders, when I want to keep that the same and be lighter. I diet at the same time, what can I do to get rid of the leg mass, but still let's me cycle to work? Was thinking long distance running? But find it a bit boring...
Post edited at 12:27
In reply to jonnie3430:
I wonder sometimes if my very heavy cycling legs hold back my climbing a bit, I raced local cycling time trials and such in my teens and though not so fast now I still sprint around the city a fair bit to and from work. I am certainly a great deal stronger on slabs where I can hang around all day than on overhangs where my endurance is poor and I pump out quickly.
To an extent I have reconciled myself to this (not too unpleasant) problem by considering that we all have our strengths and weaknesses and that I value my ability to cycle up hills as much as I do my climbing.
I wonder sometimes if my very heavy cycling legs hold back my climbing a bit, I raced local cycling time trials and such in my teens and though not so fast now I still sprint around the city a fair bit to and from work. I am certainly a great deal stronger on slabs where I can hang around all day than on overhangs where my endurance is poor and I pump out quickly.
To an extent I have reconciled myself to this (not too unpleasant) problem by considering that we all have our strengths and weaknesses and that I value my ability to cycle up hills as much as I do my climbing.
2
1
In reply to jonnie3430:
Someone knowledgable will be along in moment no doubt, but why are your legs big from cycling? Is it because you're pushing a big gear slowly, rather than a small one quickly?
Someone knowledgable will be along in moment no doubt, but why are your legs big from cycling? Is it because you're pushing a big gear slowly, rather than a small one quickly?
1
In reply to jonnie3430:
Yeah, a low gear cycling is the way forward on that front.
62" gear (39x17) single freewheel.
Yeah, a low gear cycling is the way forward on that front.
62" gear (39x17) single freewheel.
1
In reply to Andy Hardy:
Aye, I don't think sprinting the beach cruiser up the road helped. An now making sure I only spin, but as the commute is only 30 mins each way, don't know the effect? Would it need to be hours at a time to change bulk?
Aye, I don't think sprinting the beach cruiser up the road helped. An now making sure I only spin, but as the commute is only 30 mins each way, don't know the effect? Would it need to be hours at a time to change bulk?
1
In reply to jonnie3430:
If you really want to get better at climbing, eat less, don't cycle anywhere; if you don't use your legs, they will atrophy.
Any leg exercise, be it running, cycling, dead-lifting, whatever, will promote the retention (or even further increase) of leg muscle mass.
If you can accept compromise, you can do a few things to prevent excess leg mass
- cycle in to work on an empty stomach to promote ketosis, and don't stuff your face after riding - the energy will be directed towards your legs, not the climbing muscles you want to promote recovery in
- go slower
- use a smaller gear - spin, don't crank
> I'm keen to climb harder and am about to get keen on training again. I'm stocky and build muscle easily, cycle a lot and so have big legs and calves. Is there a way I can train so that my legs weigh less? (What a strange question.) If I train hard now (bouldering,) I'll put on more muscle in my arms and shoulders, when I want to keep that the same and be lighter. I diet at the same time, what can I do to get rid of the leg mass, but still let's me cycle to work? Was thinking long distance running? But find it a bit boring...
If you really want to get better at climbing, eat less, don't cycle anywhere; if you don't use your legs, they will atrophy.
Any leg exercise, be it running, cycling, dead-lifting, whatever, will promote the retention (or even further increase) of leg muscle mass.
If you can accept compromise, you can do a few things to prevent excess leg mass
- cycle in to work on an empty stomach to promote ketosis, and don't stuff your face after riding - the energy will be directed towards your legs, not the climbing muscles you want to promote recovery in
- go slower
- use a smaller gear - spin, don't crank
3
In reply to jonnie3430:
No idea, as I'm "blessed" with pipe cleaners for legs, regardless of how I cycle.
No idea, as I'm "blessed" with pipe cleaners for legs, regardless of how I cycle.
2
In reply to jonnie3430:
there is no easy way to atrophy your legs specifically that wouldn't do real damage to your training more generally. i mean, sure you could run on an empty stomach till you stink of amonia (sign your body is starting to burn muscle) but good luck getting in a good bouldering session for the next week!
Lose weight generally, don't train your legs, boulder, and a larger proportion of your weight loss will be in your lower body that it would be otherwise.
but Jonnie, remember,
winter is coming....
there is no easy way to atrophy your legs specifically that wouldn't do real damage to your training more generally. i mean, sure you could run on an empty stomach till you stink of amonia (sign your body is starting to burn muscle) but good luck getting in a good bouldering session for the next week!
Lose weight generally, don't train your legs, boulder, and a larger proportion of your weight loss will be in your lower body that it would be otherwise.
but Jonnie, remember,
winter is coming....
1
In reply to stuartpicken:
Cheers all, I'll stop cycling and up the easy bouldering.
Stuart, why do you think I'm training? You about?
Cheers all, I'll stop cycling and up the easy bouldering.
> but Jonnie, remember,
> winter is coming....
Stuart, why do you think I'm training? You about?
In reply to jonnie3430:
Hi Jonnie3430, weight distribution and body composition is a major topic im working to address in my quest to improve my climbing. So in a round about way here is my advice.
So my stats:
Height: 192cm/6ft,4in
Weight: 90kg/14 stone
Best Annecdotal Advice:
Said by Carlo Traversi - "After training or climbing grade your performance based on your own expectations, only afterwards then weigh yourself - I often found that my weight didnt matter that much"
Training Advice:
I once performed weeks worth of eating salads and doing cardio to get my body fat down but the weight would not shift. After getting various measurements done it turned out I was 9% body fat so the return on investment of effort to drop 1% body fat would only yield 900grams.
-Go get your body fat measured
-If you pay up for the all single/dancing version bioelectric impedance type measurements they should calculate your basal metabolic rate (BMR).
BMR will tell you how many calories you need to simply exist per day if you did nothing. This helps plan how much you can eat and when combined with excercise helps you plan either a deficit, to maintain or to put on weight. Bear in mind your body is not like a calculator in that 1+2=3, these values are just a guide and should not replace common sense and a healthy balanced diet.
Now you have two choices. To ditch the excess body fat or if like me its a waste of time, train explosive power to get the most out of the muscle you have rather than accrue any more.
In simple terms of a pull ups, keep the reps per set low i.e 3 reps and keep the sets low i.e 3 and only perform this 2-3 times a week or less. Keep the recovery time between sets long i.e 10mins. This reps/sets ratio training protocol is adopted by similar strength to weight ratio sports like MMA fighters.
You are looking for all out effort so if body weight is too easy, the. Add weight.
I have had good results with this and have recently switched to a slightly different version of increasing the reps to 6 per set with the following profile.
1 x max added weight,
2 x half max added weight
3 x quarter max added weight.
So for me its:60kg, 30kg, 15kg
All the weights are set on slings so i can drop off the bar quickly, ditch the weight and carry on.
For fingers, google Eva Lopez maximum added weight, minimum edge width training protocol. Again this is the only evidence based finger training protocol available. Most training regimes are annecdotal and should be approached with caution.
For shoulders, google I's, Y's & T's performed on TRX or rings. You can perform these face down for compression strength or face up for shoulder stability.
Being heavy doesn't mean you cant climb high grades, im currently comfortable at 7C+ in a session, my other half who is 5ft2 and weighs around 67kg currently holds her own at 7A (although she can climb much harder when she tries!!)
Good luck with your quest, the guys and girls on here have posted some other interesting options which are also worth exploring.
Hi Jonnie3430, weight distribution and body composition is a major topic im working to address in my quest to improve my climbing. So in a round about way here is my advice.
So my stats:
Height: 192cm/6ft,4in
Weight: 90kg/14 stone
Best Annecdotal Advice:
Said by Carlo Traversi - "After training or climbing grade your performance based on your own expectations, only afterwards then weigh yourself - I often found that my weight didnt matter that much"
Training Advice:
I once performed weeks worth of eating salads and doing cardio to get my body fat down but the weight would not shift. After getting various measurements done it turned out I was 9% body fat so the return on investment of effort to drop 1% body fat would only yield 900grams.
-Go get your body fat measured
-If you pay up for the all single/dancing version bioelectric impedance type measurements they should calculate your basal metabolic rate (BMR).
BMR will tell you how many calories you need to simply exist per day if you did nothing. This helps plan how much you can eat and when combined with excercise helps you plan either a deficit, to maintain or to put on weight. Bear in mind your body is not like a calculator in that 1+2=3, these values are just a guide and should not replace common sense and a healthy balanced diet.
Now you have two choices. To ditch the excess body fat or if like me its a waste of time, train explosive power to get the most out of the muscle you have rather than accrue any more.
In simple terms of a pull ups, keep the reps per set low i.e 3 reps and keep the sets low i.e 3 and only perform this 2-3 times a week or less. Keep the recovery time between sets long i.e 10mins. This reps/sets ratio training protocol is adopted by similar strength to weight ratio sports like MMA fighters.
You are looking for all out effort so if body weight is too easy, the. Add weight.
I have had good results with this and have recently switched to a slightly different version of increasing the reps to 6 per set with the following profile.
1 x max added weight,
2 x half max added weight
3 x quarter max added weight.
So for me its:60kg, 30kg, 15kg
All the weights are set on slings so i can drop off the bar quickly, ditch the weight and carry on.
For fingers, google Eva Lopez maximum added weight, minimum edge width training protocol. Again this is the only evidence based finger training protocol available. Most training regimes are annecdotal and should be approached with caution.
For shoulders, google I's, Y's & T's performed on TRX or rings. You can perform these face down for compression strength or face up for shoulder stability.
Being heavy doesn't mean you cant climb high grades, im currently comfortable at 7C+ in a session, my other half who is 5ft2 and weighs around 67kg currently holds her own at 7A (although she can climb much harder when she tries!!)
Good luck with your quest, the guys and girls on here have posted some other interesting options which are also worth exploring.
1
1
In reply to stuartpicken:
Well here's a way:
Put splints around your knee and ankle joints of both legs to immobilize them - (or build a cast around them, like for a broken bone). Get around using crutches for a week or so.
The rate of atrophy of muscles resulting from total immobilization is really amazing.
note ...
Some people just tend to have lean muscles while other people just tend to have bulky muscles. Likely the Original Poster of this thread is always going to have more bulky muscles (including arms) than some other climbers.
warning ...
Weight lost by radical means tends to come back after about six months. The neural appetite control center can be tricked in the short run, but tends to find an alternate winning strategy later. Doesn't help your climbing performance (or future bicycling performance) if the lost muscle weight comes back as fat.
Ken
> there is no easy way to atrophy your legs specifically that
> wouldn't do real damage to your training more generally.
> wouldn't do real damage to your training more generally.
Well here's a way:
Put splints around your knee and ankle joints of both legs to immobilize them - (or build a cast around them, like for a broken bone). Get around using crutches for a week or so.
The rate of atrophy of muscles resulting from total immobilization is really amazing.
note ...
Some people just tend to have lean muscles while other people just tend to have bulky muscles. Likely the Original Poster of this thread is always going to have more bulky muscles (including arms) than some other climbers.
warning ...
Weight lost by radical means tends to come back after about six months. The neural appetite control center can be tricked in the short run, but tends to find an alternate winning strategy later. Doesn't help your climbing performance (or future bicycling performance) if the lost muscle weight comes back as fat.
Ken
Post edited at 04:50
In reply to jonnie3430:
This topic really is as simple or complicated as you want to make it.
Essentially, if you eat extra calories, you will add weight. If this is good calories (protein) whilst working out well, this will be muscle, versus bad calories and being dormant (fat weight).
Reducing bulk, regardless of that weight being fat and/or muscle is done by reducing calories. Losing muscle mass (proper, dense lean muscle mass) is very difficult to do comfortably. When I gave up playing american football it toom me quite some time to lose a good few stone of unnecessary muscle bulk.
My advice is simple, work out your ideal calorific intake. Next, workout your ideal lean muscle mass. This is how many g of protein you shoukd take in a day. Times it by 4 and that is the total calories you shoukd dedicate to eating protein a day. I would then take your total calorie intake and reduce it by 10% and split the remaining calories around 60/40 between fat and carbs.
Workout as normal, climb as normal and, in time your body will start adjusting itself to how and what you do.
This topic really is as simple or complicated as you want to make it.
Essentially, if you eat extra calories, you will add weight. If this is good calories (protein) whilst working out well, this will be muscle, versus bad calories and being dormant (fat weight).
Reducing bulk, regardless of that weight being fat and/or muscle is done by reducing calories. Losing muscle mass (proper, dense lean muscle mass) is very difficult to do comfortably. When I gave up playing american football it toom me quite some time to lose a good few stone of unnecessary muscle bulk.
My advice is simple, work out your ideal calorific intake. Next, workout your ideal lean muscle mass. This is how many g of protein you shoukd take in a day. Times it by 4 and that is the total calories you shoukd dedicate to eating protein a day. I would then take your total calorie intake and reduce it by 10% and split the remaining calories around 60/40 between fat and carbs.
Workout as normal, climb as normal and, in time your body will start adjusting itself to how and what you do.
In reply to jonnie3430:
I've cycled 20 years and began climbing circa 6 years ago and boulder mostly. I have had the same problem. I even hired a coach and she pretty much said the same thing on, especially on roofs and overhangs. My core basically struggled to support big strong thigh muscles.
As others have said. My advice is drop the cycling. I ride to work still but don't to many miles and I fitted a high Singlespeed gear to spin more than sprint. Since doing this my trousers are getting baggier around my thighs so it is going but at the same time I've also lost weight and that helped enormously too. So this dual attack seems to have largely worked. In terms of aerobic exercises I don't do as much but in bouldering its not so important.
My other issue from years of cycling has been flexibility in hips / legs and weak inner core. I'm stretching every day after the commute now and that's helped and more recently I've begun to do deadlifts to engage the inner core. The outer core with crunches is fine but you might need to do both.
Good luck.
I've cycled 20 years and began climbing circa 6 years ago and boulder mostly. I have had the same problem. I even hired a coach and she pretty much said the same thing on, especially on roofs and overhangs. My core basically struggled to support big strong thigh muscles.
As others have said. My advice is drop the cycling. I ride to work still but don't to many miles and I fitted a high Singlespeed gear to spin more than sprint. Since doing this my trousers are getting baggier around my thighs so it is going but at the same time I've also lost weight and that helped enormously too. So this dual attack seems to have largely worked. In terms of aerobic exercises I don't do as much but in bouldering its not so important.
My other issue from years of cycling has been flexibility in hips / legs and weak inner core. I'm stretching every day after the commute now and that's helped and more recently I've begun to do deadlifts to engage the inner core. The outer core with crunches is fine but you might need to do both.
Good luck.
In reply to Ally Smith:
I have tried this but I get so hungry after cycling that I can't function if I don't eat lots
How do you resist the urge?
I have tried this but I get so hungry after cycling that I can't function if I don't eat lots
How do you resist the urge?
I have a similar problem. I was a bodybuilder/powerlifter before climbing and I'm still around 80kg with very low body fat. The good news is that its impossible to gain muscle if you are in a calorie deficit and if you keep your deficit at over around 500 calories you will likely lose muscle mass regardless of what training you do. This is a huge problem for bodybuilders when they are stripping down for a contest and despite trying to retain all their muscle still lose some.
Personally I'd say stick to around a 500 calorie deficit and you will slowly lose weight (about 1lb a week), eat low calorie high volume foods to keep you full such as chicken, eggs, loads of veg, limit fruit, stop snacking, etc... Limit your cycling and any leg training to promote atrophy and continue doing your pullups and climbing specific training to best maintain your strength there.
I'm not an expert with much that is climbing related yet but I am with morphing body shape!
Personally I'd say stick to around a 500 calorie deficit and you will slowly lose weight (about 1lb a week), eat low calorie high volume foods to keep you full such as chicken, eggs, loads of veg, limit fruit, stop snacking, etc... Limit your cycling and any leg training to promote atrophy and continue doing your pullups and climbing specific training to best maintain your strength there.
I'm not an expert with much that is climbing related yet but I am with morphing body shape!
2
In reply to Gaijin:
I'll probably be flamed for saying this, I know high protein diets are bang on trend at the moment, but surely a surplus of protein is exactly what you would do if you were trying to *retain* muscle bulk while in an overall calorie deficit?
I'll probably be flamed for saying this, I know high protein diets are bang on trend at the moment, but surely a surplus of protein is exactly what you would do if you were trying to *retain* muscle bulk while in an overall calorie deficit?
In reply to Avinash Aujayeb:
Will power
> I have tried this but I get so hungry after cycling that I can't function if I don't eat lots
> How do you resist the urge?
Will power
1
In reply to Quiddity:
Spot on - high protein will favour muscle retention and fat loss.
If the OP really wants to drop muscle mass, they'll have to run a significant calorie deficit and steer clear of the whey powder!
> I'll probably be flamed for saying this, I know high protein diets are bang on trend at the moment, but surely a surplus of protein is exactly what you would do if you were trying to *retain* muscle bulk while in an overall calorie deficit?
Spot on - high protein will favour muscle retention and fat loss.
If the OP really wants to drop muscle mass, they'll have to run a significant calorie deficit and steer clear of the whey powder!
In reply to jonnie3430:
It should be difficult for your body to put on any sort of weight if you are in an overall calorie balance or slight deficit. I found keeping track of my food intake made a massive difference, otherwise I end up lapsing into eating larger portions than I really need. I use the myfitnesspal app to track food intake (the barcode scanner is mega useful), subtract off what I burn doing excercise (it syncs with strava so I already have a fairly accurate estimate of calorie burn on the bike, estimating calorie burn for climbing is much harder) and make sure it adds up to around 2,000 per day which I reckon is bit below my BMR (I am trying to shave weight off at the moment). I try to make myself log my food before I eat anything, it is a small amount of hassle but for snacking it makes me stop and think about whether I really want to eat it, which I think is no bad thing.
I am a bit mystified by all the replies saying give up cycling, seems a bit excessive to me, but despite cycling quite a lot (8,000km so far in 2015) don't really get this big legs thing.
It should be difficult for your body to put on any sort of weight if you are in an overall calorie balance or slight deficit. I found keeping track of my food intake made a massive difference, otherwise I end up lapsing into eating larger portions than I really need. I use the myfitnesspal app to track food intake (the barcode scanner is mega useful), subtract off what I burn doing excercise (it syncs with strava so I already have a fairly accurate estimate of calorie burn on the bike, estimating calorie burn for climbing is much harder) and make sure it adds up to around 2,000 per day which I reckon is bit below my BMR (I am trying to shave weight off at the moment). I try to make myself log my food before I eat anything, it is a small amount of hassle but for snacking it makes me stop and think about whether I really want to eat it, which I think is no bad thing.
I am a bit mystified by all the replies saying give up cycling, seems a bit excessive to me, but despite cycling quite a lot (8,000km so far in 2015) don't really get this big legs thing.
In reply to Avinash Aujayeb:
Drink water, decaf tea, etc... when you get in from the bike.
Thanks to all for the comments, will keep the diet and climbing going and drop the cycling.
J
Drink water, decaf tea, etc... when you get in from the bike.
Thanks to all for the comments, will keep the diet and climbing going and drop the cycling.
J
In reply to Quiddity:
No flame required here. It is simple math...
If i eat enough protein to retain 150lb of lean muscle mass, and I am working harder/building and using upper body muscle much more than lower, then my body will reroute what and where needs the nurishment.
Essentially what I am promoting is that you eat for the lean and overall weight you want and then just work out as you please. Your body will (over a period of time, atrophy is a beast) change accordingly.
No flame required here. It is simple math...
If i eat enough protein to retain 150lb of lean muscle mass, and I am working harder/building and using upper body muscle much more than lower, then my body will reroute what and where needs the nurishment.
Essentially what I am promoting is that you eat for the lean and overall weight you want and then just work out as you please. Your body will (over a period of time, atrophy is a beast) change accordingly.
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