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Asking this question as i am genuinely interested in the benefits and pitfalls involved.
If a youngster tends towards matching their hands up on a hold and then reaching for the next one, what are the downsides?
Is it less efficient?
Does it tend towards injuries in youngsters?
I am finding that my chllds climbing is being steered away from her static climbing style which although slower, does tend towards some excellent results. I have nothing against her swinging around like a monkey, pulling off dynamic moves and tbh would like to encourage this, more from the perspective of having more tools in the chest for climbing.
But why is it borderline frowned upon to slow yourself down, adjust your body position, match up your hands and then reach for a hold?
I am a total beginner so i am not looking for a who is right/wrong, more this is why this is better or worse.
Thanks in advance
If a youngster tends towards matching their hands up on a hold and then reaching for the next one, what are the downsides?
Is it less efficient?
Does it tend towards injuries in youngsters?
I am finding that my chllds climbing is being steered away from her static climbing style which although slower, does tend towards some excellent results. I have nothing against her swinging around like a monkey, pulling off dynamic moves and tbh would like to encourage this, more from the perspective of having more tools in the chest for climbing.
But why is it borderline frowned upon to slow yourself down, adjust your body position, match up your hands and then reach for a hold?
I am a total beginner so i am not looking for a who is right/wrong, more this is why this is better or worse.
Thanks in advance
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In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
I'm guessing your child's climbing is unusually static and measured. In which case it's quite likely that more fluid movement could be more efficient. Hanging around on holds takes energy and saps strength that could be vital higher up the route, so should be avoided unless there are clear benefits. The fact that your child may climb well at the moment doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement if she can adopt a more efficient style and a good coach will try hard to redress any imbalance that your child is showing.
I have always been a slow and measured climber and definitely benefit from being more forceful whenever the situation merits - I think possibly I would be more able and willing to adapt as needed if I'd been coached well from a young age.
From what you've said, I wouldn't worry about it.
I'm guessing your child's climbing is unusually static and measured. In which case it's quite likely that more fluid movement could be more efficient. Hanging around on holds takes energy and saps strength that could be vital higher up the route, so should be avoided unless there are clear benefits. The fact that your child may climb well at the moment doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement if she can adopt a more efficient style and a good coach will try hard to redress any imbalance that your child is showing.
I have always been a slow and measured climber and definitely benefit from being more forceful whenever the situation merits - I think possibly I would be more able and willing to adapt as needed if I'd been coached well from a young age.
From what you've said, I wouldn't worry about it.
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In reply to john arran:
Thanks for the response. TBH you have said what i had kinda made up in my head. The slow, get yourself positioned, gets your hands right, then go for the next move tends towards using more energy which can be saved for later.
I buy into getting good technique etc and if being smoother and quicker helps then thats going to be encouraged. I was just worrying that there was some hidden downside which i was missing.
Thanks for the response. TBH you have said what i had kinda made up in my head. The slow, get yourself positioned, gets your hands right, then go for the next move tends towards using more energy which can be saved for later.
I buy into getting good technique etc and if being smoother and quicker helps then thats going to be encouraged. I was just worrying that there was some hidden downside which i was missing.
In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
I would think that, if anything, a more static style could be less likely to cause injury, but I also think that, unless a young climber is habitually launching recklessly between holds with gay abandon, the difference isn't likely to be significant enough to concern me.
I would think that, if anything, a more static style could be less likely to cause injury, but I also think that, unless a young climber is habitually launching recklessly between holds with gay abandon, the difference isn't likely to be significant enough to concern me.
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In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
If you're matching holds every move you're more likely to spend time locked off rather than with straight arms. Also you're less likely to be in balance, especially if your feet are close or matched.
If you're matching holds every move you're more likely to spend time locked off rather than with straight arms. Also you're less likely to be in balance, especially if your feet are close or matched.
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In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
Yes, thats the way it seems tbh. A big proportion of moves are in the locked off position. We are countering it at present and we will work on avoiding lock offs/matching hands.
If we can get both going then its all the better for future climbing
Yes, thats the way it seems tbh. A big proportion of moves are in the locked off position. We are countering it at present and we will work on avoiding lock offs/matching hands.
If we can get both going then its all the better for future climbing
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In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
Does it depend on the climb? Some climbs have handholds that naturally go left-right-left-right, hence are easy to keep moving on - and if you're matching hands it means you're out of sequence.
Does it depend on the climb? Some climbs have handholds that naturally go left-right-left-right, hence are easy to keep moving on - and if you're matching hands it means you're out of sequence.
In reply to climbwhenready:
Yes it would of course depend on the climb. Something with left/right type climbing tends to be climbed much more dynamic than others. There are occasions where she will forgo 'swinging & stepping' (I have no technical knowledge) in and prefer to match and stretch. Personally i know this is because the safety factor to her is 10x higher doing it this way and as i have said before she is blooming good at it.
Yes it would of course depend on the climb. Something with left/right type climbing tends to be climbed much more dynamic than others. There are occasions where she will forgo 'swinging & stepping' (I have no technical knowledge) in and prefer to match and stretch. Personally i know this is because the safety factor to her is 10x higher doing it this way and as i have said before she is blooming good at it.
In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
To an extent matching hands might be ingraining bad habits in your child - when they're bigger they might not be able to match on the holds they've become accustomed to. It might stunt their ability to read a sequence - if they're always relying on being able to match they're not thinking about which hand to have on the next hold, which when you're climbing right at your limit will really matter.
To an extent matching hands might be ingraining bad habits in your child - when they're bigger they might not be able to match on the holds they've become accustomed to. It might stunt their ability to read a sequence - if they're always relying on being able to match they're not thinking about which hand to have on the next hold, which when you're climbing right at your limit will really matter.
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In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
Probably depends on the location and style too. On big overhanging indoor walls where speed is of the essence (for me anyway) and there's nothing to hit if I come off I'm willing to let my inner child monkey about with much more dynamic moves that I would use an outdoor trad route where a bit of caution does not usually go amiss.
Probably depends on the location and style too. On big overhanging indoor walls where speed is of the essence (for me anyway) and there's nothing to hit if I come off I'm willing to let my inner child monkey about with much more dynamic moves that I would use an outdoor trad route where a bit of caution does not usually go amiss.
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In reply to RockSteady:
Ahhh, thats the kind of reply i was looking for.
I understand about her ability to hold/carry out the same moves may reduce when she grows etc. That makes sense. Therefore relying on them so much now means she would struggle to maintain her levels later.
I wouldnt say she doesnt think about which hand to have on the next hold. She really does. She will tell me how she is going to do the climb, describe matching her hands and then which hand is going to stretch for the next hold. It isnt an unconceous decision at all, even in competition she will describe the climb and then do as she says.
From the sounds of it we are not talking the end of the world here. Its an adjustment i need to sort (By encouraging) to help her avoid limiting her climbing.
Thanks
Ahhh, thats the kind of reply i was looking for.
I understand about her ability to hold/carry out the same moves may reduce when she grows etc. That makes sense. Therefore relying on them so much now means she would struggle to maintain her levels later.
I wouldnt say she doesnt think about which hand to have on the next hold. She really does. She will tell me how she is going to do the climb, describe matching her hands and then which hand is going to stretch for the next hold. It isnt an unconceous decision at all, even in competition she will describe the climb and then do as she says.
From the sounds of it we are not talking the end of the world here. Its an adjustment i need to sort (By encouraging) to help her avoid limiting her climbing.
Thanks
In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
I'm hardly a technique expert but from trying to coach my other half who used to get very static and psyched out, I've learnt the benefits of more dynamic movement.
On very basic reason not to match is that it often doesn't really gain you anything unless you need to swap hands or need to pull with both hands for a big dyno. Most of the time the momentum gained by the second hand coming up to match (and the legs possibly extending at the same time) could be better harnessed by continuing through to grasp the next hold with a straight arm rather than killing off the momentum only to lock-off an leave yourself a harder move from a stress position. It does depend a lot on the style of route. On balancy slabs a static approach may help keep your feet under your body, on an overhanging boulder problem you really need the momentum to make the moves.
I'm hardly a technique expert but from trying to coach my other half who used to get very static and psyched out, I've learnt the benefits of more dynamic movement.
On very basic reason not to match is that it often doesn't really gain you anything unless you need to swap hands or need to pull with both hands for a big dyno. Most of the time the momentum gained by the second hand coming up to match (and the legs possibly extending at the same time) could be better harnessed by continuing through to grasp the next hold with a straight arm rather than killing off the momentum only to lock-off an leave yourself a harder move from a stress position. It does depend a lot on the style of route. On balancy slabs a static approach may help keep your feet under your body, on an overhanging boulder problem you really need the momentum to make the moves.
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In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
In simple terms its about being in a position on which your body has a mechanical advantage over the hand and footholds.
Matching has its place but like any technique its worth is only when used at the right time and place.
Encourage varied styles in different rock types and angles and you will cultivate a well rounded climber.
In simple terms its about being in a position on which your body has a mechanical advantage over the hand and footholds.
Matching has its place but like any technique its worth is only when used at the right time and place.
Encourage varied styles in different rock types and angles and you will cultivate a well rounded climber.
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In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
This is quite funny as it reminds me of when I first started to take my son to the wall and was constantly telling him to use his feet, stop only thinking about using his hands. Went on for weeks! Then he got busy with bikes and scooters and stuff and didn't climb for 12 months. He's just come back to climbing and he breezes up 6b's with great technique. The only conclusion I can come to is that he was just having fun and enjoying it - it wasn't about technique, just the pleasure of climbing. So, I wouldn't worry about matching hands - as alx said, it's a perfectly good technique when it's needed. She'll learn she can't do it every time when she gets on the harder stuff.
This is quite funny as it reminds me of when I first started to take my son to the wall and was constantly telling him to use his feet, stop only thinking about using his hands. Went on for weeks! Then he got busy with bikes and scooters and stuff and didn't climb for 12 months. He's just come back to climbing and he breezes up 6b's with great technique. The only conclusion I can come to is that he was just having fun and enjoying it - it wasn't about technique, just the pleasure of climbing. So, I wouldn't worry about matching hands - as alx said, it's a perfectly good technique when it's needed. She'll learn she can't do it every time when she gets on the harder stuff.
In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
Is she very small? Or very slight of frame? This can also dictate the way she has to solve the problems she is facing whilst going up. I have not much to add to what has been said by much abler climbers above. She needs to know when to "change gear" sometimes static is the way to go, sometimes dynamic is... so she should try both whenever is safe and learn the 2 different pathways.
Is she very small? Or very slight of frame? This can also dictate the way she has to solve the problems she is facing whilst going up. I have not much to add to what has been said by much abler climbers above. She needs to know when to "change gear" sometimes static is the way to go, sometimes dynamic is... so she should try both whenever is safe and learn the 2 different pathways.
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In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
as others have said, as she grows she eventually wont be able to match so much on the holds as her hand would be too big. My daughter can match things I barely get a hand on.
I would also say many matchabe holds may leave her front on to the wall and of course the better habit to learn is to have a hip facing the wall. Ideally she should learn lots of different techniques/movements for her climbing toolbox ad perhaps right now is predominantly matching.
When we all start we often climb as if we're going up a ladder, rarely the best way.
as others have said, as she grows she eventually wont be able to match so much on the holds as her hand would be too big. My daughter can match things I barely get a hand on.
I would also say many matchabe holds may leave her front on to the wall and of course the better habit to learn is to have a hip facing the wall. Ideally she should learn lots of different techniques/movements for her climbing toolbox ad perhaps right now is predominantly matching.
When we all start we often climb as if we're going up a ladder, rarely the best way.
Post edited at 13:06
In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
I think you should practise both static and dynamic climbing, and if you tend to do one you need to practise the other? You often need to be static when move between bad, guarded, complicated or hidden holds (e.g. flared crack with small "better bit" which you can't see and tiny pebble for a thumb), and dynamic between good or open but widely spaced holds, especially on overhangs. Where there is a choice a bit of dynamic movement tends to save energy, leaving more for further up the climb. Dave MacLeod's "9 out of 10 climbers" is good on this.
As for matching, unless it is a deliberate exercise not to then I'm all for it. Matching can be a good tactic and should be part of your climbing "toolkit". I find that when moves get hard is often more effective to break them into two smaller moves rather than one big one? I will often place the hand that will stay on the best bit of a hold, then place the hand that will move on whatever remains, adjust my feet/body, and then move the hand to the next hold. Even two fingers curled onto an edge can make a big difference. This is especially true for kids, who have to make more out of the holds they can reach, and doubly true indoors where routes are often set for adult reaches.
With my 12 year old, often the harder adult climbs are too reachy for her, and the easier ones are too juggy. To help we do "touch hold" on a traverse wall - I use a stick and touch what she is allowed to hold, any feet. I vary between big reaches on good holds, so she has to be dynamic, to smaller reaches on bad holds. I think it has really brought on her climbing and she can hold and move between big slopers and tiny crimps really well now, and uses her feet well too.
Good luck with it, and get outdoors if you haven't already
I think you should practise both static and dynamic climbing, and if you tend to do one you need to practise the other? You often need to be static when move between bad, guarded, complicated or hidden holds (e.g. flared crack with small "better bit" which you can't see and tiny pebble for a thumb), and dynamic between good or open but widely spaced holds, especially on overhangs. Where there is a choice a bit of dynamic movement tends to save energy, leaving more for further up the climb. Dave MacLeod's "9 out of 10 climbers" is good on this.
As for matching, unless it is a deliberate exercise not to then I'm all for it. Matching can be a good tactic and should be part of your climbing "toolkit". I find that when moves get hard is often more effective to break them into two smaller moves rather than one big one? I will often place the hand that will stay on the best bit of a hold, then place the hand that will move on whatever remains, adjust my feet/body, and then move the hand to the next hold. Even two fingers curled onto an edge can make a big difference. This is especially true for kids, who have to make more out of the holds they can reach, and doubly true indoors where routes are often set for adult reaches.
With my 12 year old, often the harder adult climbs are too reachy for her, and the easier ones are too juggy. To help we do "touch hold" on a traverse wall - I use a stick and touch what she is allowed to hold, any feet. I vary between big reaches on good holds, so she has to be dynamic, to smaller reaches on bad holds. I think it has really brought on her climbing and she can hold and move between big slopers and tiny crimps really well now, and uses her feet well too.
Good luck with it, and get outdoors if you haven't already
Post edited at 13:11
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In reply to RobertHepburn:
Thanks Robert. Thats something to get my teeth into.
Thats exactly how she uses it. Without blowing her trumpet she is in the top few kids in her age group (Indoors) so she isnt doing anything too wrong. She will get to a climb and break a stretchy move into a couple of moves. Using the matched hands and foot/body movement. This works fantastically well. In the scottish championships she was the ONLY girl in her class who managed to clear an overhang and only 2 boys managed, it none getting anywhere near as far. This was down to the fact she looked at the climb, noticed the hold just above the overhang was a flattish ledge (Finger tip thickness) which she just looked at me and said she will happily hold her body weight on. I pointed out the tiny foot/hold about 2ft away from that and she just told me she would get her foot on it, lock out and reach for the next hold. Thats exactly what she did. She was the last girl to climb it so noone got the chance to copy her. The boys then did it and tbh most flapped at it in a dyno move (One hand on ledge, foot on secure lower hold and launch for bigger jug) and fell off.
"With my 12 year old, often the harder adult climbs are too reachy for her, and the easier ones are too juggy"
Yep. i feel like that too. the touch hold suggestion is good, maybe with a lazer pointer will get her excited a bit about it She had a lesson with a really good coach we have and he had her doing similar. Will build that in thanks.
Thanks Robert. Thats something to get my teeth into.
Thats exactly how she uses it. Without blowing her trumpet she is in the top few kids in her age group (Indoors) so she isnt doing anything too wrong. She will get to a climb and break a stretchy move into a couple of moves. Using the matched hands and foot/body movement. This works fantastically well. In the scottish championships she was the ONLY girl in her class who managed to clear an overhang and only 2 boys managed, it none getting anywhere near as far. This was down to the fact she looked at the climb, noticed the hold just above the overhang was a flattish ledge (Finger tip thickness) which she just looked at me and said she will happily hold her body weight on. I pointed out the tiny foot/hold about 2ft away from that and she just told me she would get her foot on it, lock out and reach for the next hold. Thats exactly what she did. She was the last girl to climb it so noone got the chance to copy her. The boys then did it and tbh most flapped at it in a dyno move (One hand on ledge, foot on secure lower hold and launch for bigger jug) and fell off.
"With my 12 year old, often the harder adult climbs are too reachy for her, and the easier ones are too juggy"
Yep. i feel like that too. the touch hold suggestion is good, maybe with a lazer pointer will get her excited a bit about it She had a lesson with a really good coach we have and he had her doing similar. Will build that in thanks.
In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
I agree with Robert that there is nothing wrong with matching on holds. Matching is part of good technique and there are a many, many routes and boulders out there where you have to match to do the problem. Earlier I watched the recent Adidas comp and on one of the problems one of the top female competitors actually matched by stacking one hand's fingers atop the other's which I haven't seen before. But it worked to help her pull off the move.Sean McColl, who won the event, also matched on a hold where no one else did which helped him do that particular problem quicker than the others.
However matching all the time might stop you from learning to do big moves. From a strength training point of view trying to climb without matching is the way to go. A lot of the time, especially on steeper, harder routes you just can't match.
As for static vs dynamic climbing again I agree with Robert that you need both. Only with static climbing can you learn the the fine subtleties of balance and body position. But being able to climb dynamically is essential for long moves, steep climbing and out of balance moves too.
Finally its also worth saying that climbers all have their own style and don't all climb the same. Part of this is to do with how and where they've learned to climb but also a big part is genetic. We each learn to climb the most efficiently with our particular bodies, our strengths and our weakenesses. As a very simple example strong powerful climbers might tend to climb more quickly and dynamically because they don't have the endurance to hang around. Endurance climbers though might need to go slower because they need to work out the least powerful ways to do each individual move.
I agree with Robert that there is nothing wrong with matching on holds. Matching is part of good technique and there are a many, many routes and boulders out there where you have to match to do the problem. Earlier I watched the recent Adidas comp and on one of the problems one of the top female competitors actually matched by stacking one hand's fingers atop the other's which I haven't seen before. But it worked to help her pull off the move.Sean McColl, who won the event, also matched on a hold where no one else did which helped him do that particular problem quicker than the others.
However matching all the time might stop you from learning to do big moves. From a strength training point of view trying to climb without matching is the way to go. A lot of the time, especially on steeper, harder routes you just can't match.
As for static vs dynamic climbing again I agree with Robert that you need both. Only with static climbing can you learn the the fine subtleties of balance and body position. But being able to climb dynamically is essential for long moves, steep climbing and out of balance moves too.
Finally its also worth saying that climbers all have their own style and don't all climb the same. Part of this is to do with how and where they've learned to climb but also a big part is genetic. We each learn to climb the most efficiently with our particular bodies, our strengths and our weakenesses. As a very simple example strong powerful climbers might tend to climb more quickly and dynamically because they don't have the endurance to hang around. Endurance climbers though might need to go slower because they need to work out the least powerful ways to do each individual move.
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In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
Welcome. One thing I forgot to say was that if she is not matching to learn new movement patterns it would be quite normal for her to climb less hard than before. Learning new movements we are unfamiliar with will always seem harder than those with which we're familiar. It takes a while for these to be learned and to become as familiar as the older ones. Once learned to the same degree, eg she is good at both matching and not matching, she'll be able to decide which is most appropriate for each situation.
Welcome. One thing I forgot to say was that if she is not matching to learn new movement patterns it would be quite normal for her to climb less hard than before. Learning new movements we are unfamiliar with will always seem harder than those with which we're familiar. It takes a while for these to be learned and to become as familiar as the older ones. Once learned to the same degree, eg she is good at both matching and not matching, she'll be able to decide which is most appropriate for each situation.
Could be worthwhile to get her to spend a little time watching top climbers in action via You Tube and analyse the movement. One thing to look at is how much they match; also which moves are done with momentum and which static.
Ondra is a good movement (and motivation level!) role model, and not as burly in style as someone like Sharma. Lots of female role models too - maybe better - but I'm less sure who. I'd avoid watching other kids (e.g. Ashima) as could get drawn into comparison.
Post edited at 11:26
In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
Depends on the climb. I know when I've watched the more experienced climbers in my club that on some of the routes they climb matching hands is the best way to go on one or two moves in some of the routes but that's it.
Personally I tend to match hands when I'm warming up or in some moves when bouldering. When I am warming up in a bouldering session I am trying to get myself more used to more dynamic moves and different ways of me moving around the route. Sometimes these drills mean matching hands; for example I can use my legs and both hands on a good hold to help propel myself in a dynamic move or it is to get me comfortable for any moment where I may need to have both hands off the wall and trust my feet but I understand that this is just something to get me more accustomed to dynamic moves for now, figuring out my balance and my confidence in such moves.
There's a time and place for static and dynamic climbing, it's a matter of knowing when and sometimes that's down to the climber. I don't like being very dynamic as I'm still building my confidence in climbing but I have to be dynamic at times because I'm short and lack the reach of other climbers.
Depends on the climb. I know when I've watched the more experienced climbers in my club that on some of the routes they climb matching hands is the best way to go on one or two moves in some of the routes but that's it.
Personally I tend to match hands when I'm warming up or in some moves when bouldering. When I am warming up in a bouldering session I am trying to get myself more used to more dynamic moves and different ways of me moving around the route. Sometimes these drills mean matching hands; for example I can use my legs and both hands on a good hold to help propel myself in a dynamic move or it is to get me comfortable for any moment where I may need to have both hands off the wall and trust my feet but I understand that this is just something to get me more accustomed to dynamic moves for now, figuring out my balance and my confidence in such moves.
There's a time and place for static and dynamic climbing, it's a matter of knowing when and sometimes that's down to the climber. I don't like being very dynamic as I'm still building my confidence in climbing but I have to be dynamic at times because I'm short and lack the reach of other climbers.
In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
Matching hands! What's this all about. Only been climbing for 50+ years and not known about this. It's no wonder I can't get up 8a's! If only I had a coach all those years ago....
Matching hands! What's this all about. Only been climbing for 50+ years and not known about this. It's no wonder I can't get up 8a's! If only I had a coach all those years ago....
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