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I attended the 2015 Stanage/North Lees forum last Saturday, held in Hathersage.
It's an annual get-together of various official groups including the Peak District National Park Authority, The BMC and The Eastern Moors Partnership, all concerned with the future of Stanage Edge and the North Lees estate. I was there (together with a small number of other climbers) in the capacity of 'Interested bystander'.
The main agenda of the meeting was to discuss the finances of maintaining the area (path/fence/gate restoration, etc.) in the wake of falling government grants.
One form of raising revenue, which was introduced in spring this year, is the Stanage Parking Sticker: http://www.bmcshop.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=225&products_id=6466
To be perfectly honest I haven't always been overly keen on paying the £4 a day required to park 'legally' at Hollin Bank (The Plantation), but £15 for a year's conscience-free parking, especially when you know the funds are going directly into the upkeep of Stanage itself, seems like too good a deal to miss, so I was an early adopter of the scheme.
I'd assumed that most other locally-based climbers, walkers and mountain bikers (not to mention people from further afield who perhaps make several trips a year up here) would be of a similar opinion and that by now many thousands of stickers would have been sold, but the figures available last Saturday suggest that, in fact, the number is just a few hundred...
How can that be? Stanage is one of the most iconic crags/landscapes in the country and gives enjoyment to huge numbers of outdoor enthusiasts. Is it a case of poor marketing of the sticker or do people really care so little that for the price of a couple of wall admissions they'll keep there hands in their pockets?
One cheery note: climbers (as opposed to other users) have apparently made up the majority of customers so far.
It's an annual get-together of various official groups including the Peak District National Park Authority, The BMC and The Eastern Moors Partnership, all concerned with the future of Stanage Edge and the North Lees estate. I was there (together with a small number of other climbers) in the capacity of 'Interested bystander'.
The main agenda of the meeting was to discuss the finances of maintaining the area (path/fence/gate restoration, etc.) in the wake of falling government grants.
One form of raising revenue, which was introduced in spring this year, is the Stanage Parking Sticker: http://www.bmcshop.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=225&products_id=6466
To be perfectly honest I haven't always been overly keen on paying the £4 a day required to park 'legally' at Hollin Bank (The Plantation), but £15 for a year's conscience-free parking, especially when you know the funds are going directly into the upkeep of Stanage itself, seems like too good a deal to miss, so I was an early adopter of the scheme.
I'd assumed that most other locally-based climbers, walkers and mountain bikers (not to mention people from further afield who perhaps make several trips a year up here) would be of a similar opinion and that by now many thousands of stickers would have been sold, but the figures available last Saturday suggest that, in fact, the number is just a few hundred...
How can that be? Stanage is one of the most iconic crags/landscapes in the country and gives enjoyment to huge numbers of outdoor enthusiasts. Is it a case of poor marketing of the sticker or do people really care so little that for the price of a couple of wall admissions they'll keep there hands in their pockets?
One cheery note: climbers (as opposed to other users) have apparently made up the majority of customers so far.
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In reply to Pete O'Donovan:
I'd say that's it. I'd heard about it from to these forums, but not otherwise.
> Is it a case of poor marketing of the sticker
I'd say that's it. I'd heard about it from to these forums, but not otherwise.
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In reply to Pete O'Donovan:
part of the problem is the national parks, they waste money, all the national parks are managed locally, with nice individual HQ buildings, they do practically nothing centrally. Yet nearly all run shops, cafes etc. and do exactly the same things in different places, just with some local tweeking.
If they were made to be more business like, more money could be spent on local issues. Peak NPA is better than most, they built some cabins etc/ for people to hire and other ventures to generate some revenue, but most are completely head in the sand.
part of the problem is the national parks, they waste money, all the national parks are managed locally, with nice individual HQ buildings, they do practically nothing centrally. Yet nearly all run shops, cafes etc. and do exactly the same things in different places, just with some local tweeking.
If they were made to be more business like, more money could be spent on local issues. Peak NPA is better than most, they built some cabins etc/ for people to hire and other ventures to generate some revenue, but most are completely head in the sand.
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In reply to Pete O'Donovan:
As a member of the Stanage Forum Steering Group, I've got to say straight away that climbers have been the most enthusiastic purchasers of the Stanage Sticker. I spent a couple of Saturdays in the car parks and never had any trouble persuading climbers to part with their hard-earned cash.
However, as Pod has said, the overall numbers are pretty disappointing. I can remember saying at a BMC Area Meeting when this was first proposed that if we didn't sell 1000 stickers in the first year to climbers alone I'd eat my hat - so pass me that fedora.
So where did we go wrong? There were stickers and collection boxes at all the Sheffield climbing walls, masses of publicity on the BMC website and I believe it even appeared in these august forums. The Peak Park had it on their website and several members of the Stanage Forum took time out to sell them at the car parks during April, May and June.
What more could we have done? If you heard about it, where did you hear? Where could we publicise it that would get through to more climbers, runners and mountain bikers? Are we selling it in the right way? Every penny goes to looking after one of the most popular crags in the country so why haven't we managed to enthuse climbers and make buying a Stanage Sticker a necessity not a luxury?
Over to you....
As a member of the Stanage Forum Steering Group, I've got to say straight away that climbers have been the most enthusiastic purchasers of the Stanage Sticker. I spent a couple of Saturdays in the car parks and never had any trouble persuading climbers to part with their hard-earned cash.
However, as Pod has said, the overall numbers are pretty disappointing. I can remember saying at a BMC Area Meeting when this was first proposed that if we didn't sell 1000 stickers in the first year to climbers alone I'd eat my hat - so pass me that fedora.
So where did we go wrong? There were stickers and collection boxes at all the Sheffield climbing walls, masses of publicity on the BMC website and I believe it even appeared in these august forums. The Peak Park had it on their website and several members of the Stanage Forum took time out to sell them at the car parks during April, May and June.
What more could we have done? If you heard about it, where did you hear? Where could we publicise it that would get through to more climbers, runners and mountain bikers? Are we selling it in the right way? Every penny goes to looking after one of the most popular crags in the country so why haven't we managed to enthuse climbers and make buying a Stanage Sticker a necessity not a luxury?
Over to you....
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In reply to john horscroft:
I don't visit Stanage much these days but one thought occurs. Whenever I have been parking has been in short supply. If thousands of tickets are sold how will the car parks cope? Or will I have a stixcker and still not be able to park?
I don't visit Stanage much these days but one thought occurs. Whenever I have been parking has been in short supply. If thousands of tickets are sold how will the car parks cope? Or will I have a stixcker and still not be able to park?
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In reply to john horscroft:
I didn't know about it until just now. Is it advertised/mentioned anywhere on here (other than this thread)? Also how about via climbing club newsletters?
I didn't know about it until just now. Is it advertised/mentioned anywhere on here (other than this thread)? Also how about via climbing club newsletters?
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In reply to john horscroft:
Also I see it is for fixed dates, which puts me off buying one just now, for example. Any chance of making it a year from date of purchase?
Also I see it is for fixed dates, which puts me off buying one just now, for example. Any chance of making it a year from date of purchase?
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In reply to Wiley Coyote:
That's why I always park my Land Rover just below Inverted V. And my selfless actions are saving space for others.
> ....Whenever I have been parking has been in short supply....
That's why I always park my Land Rover just below Inverted V. And my selfless actions are saving space for others.
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In reply to summo:
That's why the Stanage Steering group made it a condition of supporting the sticker that all moneys collected went direct to Stanage. None of this disappears into some kind of mysterious slush fund for tea and biscuits at Aldern House. Every penny goes to maintaining the North Lees/Stanage estate.
Also, the cabins you mention were one of the first initiatives dreamt up by the new management team at Stanage. They've been an enormous success with 98% occupancy since they were installed in July. That money also helps to look after the estate.
> If they were made to be more business like, more money could be spent on local issues. Peak NPA is better than most, they built some cabins etc/ for people to hire and other ventures to generate some revenue, but most are completely head in the sand.
That's why the Stanage Steering group made it a condition of supporting the sticker that all moneys collected went direct to Stanage. None of this disappears into some kind of mysterious slush fund for tea and biscuits at Aldern House. Every penny goes to maintaining the North Lees/Stanage estate.
Also, the cabins you mention were one of the first initiatives dreamt up by the new management team at Stanage. They've been an enormous success with 98% occupancy since they were installed in July. That money also helps to look after the estate.
In reply to MG:
To be honest, the dates are as good as irrelevant. As long as you buy one a year, you've done your bit. No one is policing the parking so you won't get clamped for having a sticker that's one month out of date!
Also, the deal at the moment is this year and next year's sticker for £20. £20!! Now that's a bargain!
> Also I see it is for fixed dates, which puts me off buying one just now, for example. Any chance of making it a year from date of purchase?
To be honest, the dates are as good as irrelevant. As long as you buy one a year, you've done your bit. No one is policing the parking so you won't get clamped for having a sticker that's one month out of date!
Also, the deal at the moment is this year and next year's sticker for £20. £20!! Now that's a bargain!
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In reply to MG:
Just did a quick search on the site and there are a number of mentions on the forum and in the news but no specific advert or the like. Need to address that!
As for Climbing Club newsletters, I'll suggest that to the BMC....
> Is it advertised/mentioned anywhere on here (other than this thread)? Also how about via climbing club newsletters?
Just did a quick search on the site and there are a number of mentions on the forum and in the news but no specific advert or the like. Need to address that!
As for Climbing Club newsletters, I'll suggest that to the BMC....
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In reply to Wiley Coyote:
Busy days are busy days WC! There's always been a problem on those glorious May days when every man and his dog descends on Stanage and the sticker won't alter that. Fact is, it's less of a parking permit and more a gesture of support to one of the greatest crags in the country.....
Busy days are busy days WC! There's always been a problem on those glorious May days when every man and his dog descends on Stanage and the sticker won't alter that. Fact is, it's less of a parking permit and more a gesture of support to one of the greatest crags in the country.....
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In reply to john horscroft:
I agree totally it's great for the crag, most parks make most of their money from car parks and toilets, cafes tend to be franchised out so locals gain the profit there (which is OK as the parks would probably run them at a loss).
An example to the rest, I mentioned these cabins to someone who is quite senior at YDNP, never even heard of it. That's why a central HQ would be excellent and whip those parks with no business sense into shape.
> That's why the Stanage Steering group made it a condition of supporting the sticker that all moneys collected went direct to Stanage. None of this disappears into some kind of mysterious slush fund for tea and biscuits at Aldern House. Every penny goes to maintaining the North Lees/Stanage estate.
I agree totally it's great for the crag, most parks make most of their money from car parks and toilets, cafes tend to be franchised out so locals gain the profit there (which is OK as the parks would probably run them at a loss).
> Also, the cabins you mention were one of the first initiatives dreamt up by the new management team at Stanage. They've been an enormous success with 98% occupancy since they were installed in July. That money also helps to look after the estate.
An example to the rest, I mentioned these cabins to someone who is quite senior at YDNP, never even heard of it. That's why a central HQ would be excellent and whip those parks with no business sense into shape.
Post edited at 10:49
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In reply to Pete O'Donovan:
Last word from me. The Stanage Forum Steering Group is made up of volunteers from all the major user groups and locals who do their best to help the PDNPA manage Stanage in a way that benefits everyone. We do this on your behalf so we value all your comments and simply cannot do our job properly without your feedback....
Last word from me. The Stanage Forum Steering Group is made up of volunteers from all the major user groups and locals who do their best to help the PDNPA manage Stanage in a way that benefits everyone. We do this on your behalf so we value all your comments and simply cannot do our job properly without your feedback....
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In reply to john horscroft:
The BMC link posted by Pod above works fine, but the Peak Park have changed their web site and you need to delve deep in order to find the link to actually purchase it from there.
The fact that the correct buy now link is still four correct clicks away from this page - http://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/learning-about/news/current-news/stanage-sti... is pretty shocking, plus their old page that still appears on Google search is now giving a error 404 because they didn't put a decent redirect on it.
The direct link to the Peak Park shop selling the sticker is:
https://shop.peakdistrict.gov.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=...
but as climbers I suggest we go through the BMC
http://www.bmcshop.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=225&products_id=6466
Alan
The BMC link posted by Pod above works fine, but the Peak Park have changed their web site and you need to delve deep in order to find the link to actually purchase it from there.
The fact that the correct buy now link is still four correct clicks away from this page - http://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/learning-about/news/current-news/stanage-sti... is pretty shocking, plus their old page that still appears on Google search is now giving a error 404 because they didn't put a decent redirect on it.
The direct link to the Peak Park shop selling the sticker is:
https://shop.peakdistrict.gov.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=...
but as climbers I suggest we go through the BMC
http://www.bmcshop.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=225&products_id=6466
Alan
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In reply to john horscroft:
The fact that the car aprks are not policed is half the problem. The majority of people dont pay or park on the road or in one of the car parks which is free. A large number of people are going to be reluctant to pay for something they dont have to pay for. Sad but true.
> To be honest, the dates are as good as irrelevant. As long as you buy one a year, you've done your bit. No one is policing the parking so you won't get clamped for having a sticker that's one month out of date!
> Also, the deal at the moment is this year and next year's sticker for £20. £20!! Now that's a bargain!
The fact that the car aprks are not policed is half the problem. The majority of people dont pay or park on the road or in one of the car parks which is free. A large number of people are going to be reluctant to pay for something they dont have to pay for. Sad but true.
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In reply to john horscroft: Are the stickers for sale in the gear shops (Outside etc.)? I haven't noticed. Could they be sold at the till? "going to Stanage today? would you like to add your parking to this gear you're buying?".
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In reply to andy.smythe:
Actually the majority of people using the p&d do pay. So much so that the extra money that might come in as a result of enforcing the charges would most likely not cover the cost of doing it. (Which is why they don't.)
Actually the majority of people using the p&d do pay. So much so that the extra money that might come in as a result of enforcing the charges would most likely not cover the cost of doing it. (Which is why they don't.)
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In reply to Sir Chasm:
Outside do sell them. (But I don't think they're as pushy about it as you suggest. ;O)
It is a bit disappointing they've not done better, hope that picks up soon.
(I've got one of course. It'd just be rude not to.)
Outside do sell them. (But I don't think they're as pushy about it as you suggest. ;O)
It is a bit disappointing they've not done better, hope that picks up soon.
(I've got one of course. It'd just be rude not to.)
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In reply to Pete O'Donovan:
I'm not sure what the pitch is here?
Are we being told that, instead of £4/day I can get a year pass for (now) £20? That line of argument encourgaes me to think about when I will "breakeven"; in this case on my 5th visit, with 6th and subsequent visits being "ahead". This in turn encourages me to think "it's free at the popular end and I'll walk" or "I won't be at plantation 6 times" or "I only go in the evenings" or similar.
Or are we instead being asked to donate £20 to a good cause (and we'll chuck in free parking)? That encourages me to think that I have enjoyed Stanage over the years, even if I don't go so much now.
Do you see what I mean?
The Plantation car park isn't large. Perhaps a part of it could be reserved for sticker holders?
I'm not sure what the pitch is here?
Are we being told that, instead of £4/day I can get a year pass for (now) £20? That line of argument encourgaes me to think about when I will "breakeven"; in this case on my 5th visit, with 6th and subsequent visits being "ahead". This in turn encourages me to think "it's free at the popular end and I'll walk" or "I won't be at plantation 6 times" or "I only go in the evenings" or similar.
Or are we instead being asked to donate £20 to a good cause (and we'll chuck in free parking)? That encourages me to think that I have enjoyed Stanage over the years, even if I don't go so much now.
Do you see what I mean?
The Plantation car park isn't large. Perhaps a part of it could be reserved for sticker holders?
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In reply to JJL:
Your second summation of the rationale behind the scheme is my preferred version! The Stanage Sticker is a way of helping to look after one of the most significant crags in the country, not really a parking permit at all. I just think to myself, that's two trips to The Works, a profit making enterprise - so I'm happy to pay!
Your second summation of the rationale behind the scheme is my preferred version! The Stanage Sticker is a way of helping to look after one of the most significant crags in the country, not really a parking permit at all. I just think to myself, that's two trips to The Works, a profit making enterprise - so I'm happy to pay!
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In reply to Simon Caldwell:
Definitely agree. Was there this weekend with the club, and I mentioned that I'd heard about paid parking. We didn't see any signs or anything, but after looking carefull managed to find a donation box - into which some donations went. I think nobody would've given anything if I hadn't said anything.
> I'd say that's it. I'd heard about it from to these forums, but not otherwise.
Definitely agree. Was there this weekend with the club, and I mentioned that I'd heard about paid parking. We didn't see any signs or anything, but after looking carefull managed to find a donation box - into which some donations went. I think nobody would've given anything if I hadn't said anything.
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In reply to john horscroft:
A couple of points on encouraging people to buy:
A Stanage-only sticker seems a bit weird. Why not a "Gritstone Edge" sticker that also gives parking at Surprise View, etc?
Information on what the money is actually spent on would be good. How much is spent on the North Lees estate and on what? What extra is then funded by this sticker? (Or, what would be funded if a lot more people bought it?) Just saying "every penny goes to looking after" Stanage doesn't answer the question.
A couple of points on encouraging people to buy:
A Stanage-only sticker seems a bit weird. Why not a "Gritstone Edge" sticker that also gives parking at Surprise View, etc?
Information on what the money is actually spent on would be good. How much is spent on the North Lees estate and on what? What extra is then funded by this sticker? (Or, what would be funded if a lot more people bought it?) Just saying "every penny goes to looking after" Stanage doesn't answer the question.
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In reply to Coel Hellier:
The initiative comes from the Stanage Steering Group and therefore can only apply to car parks within the Estate. 'Fraid there's little we can do to persuade the NP that it should be 'Gritstonewide'!
More ing=fo is a recurring theme and we'll have to address that next year....
The initiative comes from the Stanage Steering Group and therefore can only apply to car parks within the Estate. 'Fraid there's little we can do to persuade the NP that it should be 'Gritstonewide'!
More ing=fo is a recurring theme and we'll have to address that next year....
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In reply to Coel Hellier:
Thanks all, for the info in this thread, I've been thinking about parking a bit recently as it seems there's a lot of pressure on some car parks and none on others...
Having just been to Canada, where you pay to be in the national park, and then all the car parks, toilets etc. are free, I agree with this sentiment. We were there for two weeks and a years family pass (for all the major parks in Canada) cost us about £70, cheaper than 14 day passes.
I have a Stanage sticker purely to support the park, I rarely find myself at Stanage, but I do think a Peak District pass that covered ALL of the car parks would be worthwhile, use could be encouraged by cracking down on drivers parking on the verge at burbage north, plantation etc. And maybe making other large free car parks P+D (burbage bridge.). Any fines given out for illegal parking could include a leaflet? Plus stickers on the P+D machines, so that they can't be missed.
However, I also think £4 a day for visitors is excessive, £2 a day would probably encourage far more use and put a lot less pressure on free parking spots.
Thanks all, for the info in this thread, I've been thinking about parking a bit recently as it seems there's a lot of pressure on some car parks and none on others...
> A Stanage-only sticker seems a bit weird. Why not a "Gritstone Edge" sticker that also gives parking at Surprise View, etc?
Having just been to Canada, where you pay to be in the national park, and then all the car parks, toilets etc. are free, I agree with this sentiment. We were there for two weeks and a years family pass (for all the major parks in Canada) cost us about £70, cheaper than 14 day passes.
I have a Stanage sticker purely to support the park, I rarely find myself at Stanage, but I do think a Peak District pass that covered ALL of the car parks would be worthwhile, use could be encouraged by cracking down on drivers parking on the verge at burbage north, plantation etc. And maybe making other large free car parks P+D (burbage bridge.). Any fines given out for illegal parking could include a leaflet? Plus stickers on the P+D machines, so that they can't be missed.
However, I also think £4 a day for visitors is excessive, £2 a day would probably encourage far more use and put a lot less pressure on free parking spots.
In reply to SenzuBean:
I assume you were at the popular end? It's pretty obvious that it's a P&D car park at Plantation.
Is it not mentioned in the guidebooks about the donation?
I assume you were at the popular end? It's pretty obvious that it's a P&D car park at Plantation.
Is it not mentioned in the guidebooks about the donation?
In reply to galpinos:
Yeah Popular end. And who reads that part of the guidebook! :p (usually I do, but I didn't this time for whatever reason)
Yeah Popular end. And who reads that part of the guidebook! :p (usually I do, but I didn't this time for whatever reason)
In reply to Coel Hellier:
There is PD annual pass information on the pay and display machines. £30 I think. When I looked it up online I was put off. I think I had to post my application form (no printer at home) to the central office or something.
I would rather get this in principal as I sometimes don't remember cash for the plantation or my card for surprise view. Also, it is a bit silly that you can't pay at the machine before a certain time in the morning.
What's better, to pay for the sticker or to pay at at the Plantation four times in a year, i.e £16?
There is PD annual pass information on the pay and display machines. £30 I think. When I looked it up online I was put off. I think I had to post my application form (no printer at home) to the central office or something.
I would rather get this in principal as I sometimes don't remember cash for the plantation or my card for surprise view. Also, it is a bit silly that you can't pay at the machine before a certain time in the morning.
What's better, to pay for the sticker or to pay at at the Plantation four times in a year, i.e £16?
Post edited at 11:00
In reply to john horscroft:
Build more then?
> Also, the cabins you mention were one of the first initiatives dreamt up by the new management team at Stanage. They've been an enormous success with 98% occupancy since they were installed in July. That money also helps to look after the estate.
Build more then?
In reply to Oliver Houston:
that would great. 1 UK national park HQ, smaller regional offices. Then national passes.
The UK could go one further with a national outdoors pass. With the money shared between NPs, Forestry Commission and National Trust. If you visit more than one place in a day, the car parking fees can start to get silly.
> Having just been to Canada, where you pay to be in the national park, and then all the car parks, toilets etc. are free, I agree with this sentiment. We were there for two weeks and a years family pass (for all the major parks in Canada) cost us about £70, cheaper than 14 day passes.
that would great. 1 UK national park HQ, smaller regional offices. Then national passes.
The UK could go one further with a national outdoors pass. With the money shared between NPs, Forestry Commission and National Trust. If you visit more than one place in a day, the car parking fees can start to get silly.
In reply to Ysgo:
I think the plan was to only build a small number of cabins there, because they are completely hidden from view of the existing camp site and any locals, so it had zero visual impact and it's wasn't too big a venture that would impact local businesses, which as a government funded organisation they aren't allowed to.
> Build more then?
I think the plan was to only build a small number of cabins there, because they are completely hidden from view of the existing camp site and any locals, so it had zero visual impact and it's wasn't too big a venture that would impact local businesses, which as a government funded organisation they aren't allowed to.
lots of public bodies are having there funding cut - the main reason for this is to force them to run efficiently.
The peak park are missing the point if they then say "we are having our funding cut so we need to raise the revenue from somewhere else
Let's start with:
1. Make the monsal trail a public foot path - it will half the running costs (as half the costs of public footpaths get paid by the county council)
2. Cut half the staff in the planning department - they are a joke, constantly messing people around, insisting on planning permission when legally it's not needed. Even when it is needed they spend far too much time just messing applicants about and making them jump through unnecessary hoops.
Stanage is a natural resource - it should belong to the people and access should be free - it should not be viewed as a revenue generator
Post edited at 09:10
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In reply to Ysgo:
Nice idea, but persuading the national park to speculate to accumulate is a tough job and, as has already been pointed out, there was a conscious effort not to fundamentally change the character of the campsite....
Nice idea, but persuading the national park to speculate to accumulate is a tough job and, as has already been pointed out, there was a conscious effort not to fundamentally change the character of the campsite....
Post edited at 09:57
In reply to rogersavery:
they could probably save a few pennies by stopping the large scale "restoration" of paths and tracks in such a way as to ruin them entirely...
they could probably save a few pennies by stopping the large scale "restoration" of paths and tracks in such a way as to ruin them entirely...
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In reply to Pete O'Donovan:
Edale mountain rescue team have a good social media following (6000+) maybe they could mention/promote them? I would be willing to buy one for £20 (including a £5 donation) thus helping two very good causes.
Edale mountain rescue team have a good social media following (6000+) maybe they could mention/promote them? I would be willing to buy one for £20 (including a £5 donation) thus helping two very good causes.
1
Really nice idea, I climb all over the peaks fairly regularly and at Stanage from time to time. I would like to vote for a gritstone, dark peak or simply a peak pass as i love all areas not just stanage. i understand this is a whole different level to what your trying to do right now, but something for the future maybe.
also if this is a 'show of support' type thing instead of a parking pass, then please take the 'valid until 1st April' off the sales page. id buy one tonight if it wasnt for that. left as 2015/2016 would be perfect. i know its no policed as you say but it just doesn't feel right.
also if this is a 'show of support' type thing instead of a parking pass, then please take the 'valid until 1st April' off the sales page. id buy one tonight if it wasnt for that. left as 2015/2016 would be perfect. i know its no policed as you say but it just doesn't feel right.
In reply to john horscroft:
Hi John, where can I find the £20 deal you talked about as there is no mention of this on the Peak District and BMC shops? Thanks.
Hi John, where can I find the £20 deal you talked about as there is no mention of this on the Peak District and BMC shops? Thanks.
In reply to rogersavery:
....lots of public bodies are having there funding cut - the main reason for this is to force them to run efficiently.....
Wow - you've certainly swallowed the Tory eyewash to mix metaphors somewhat!
Efficiencies have certainly been made - and are still being made - and made- and made etc etc. The Parks can go more commercial and charge more - many wont like that either - and its good for public bodies to be flexible/resilient/fit for purpose or whatever the current jargon is for strapped for cash.
I saw a figure once - a while ago admittedly - that the Royal Opera House received more public money than all the National Parks combined. What is certain is that the Park get very little for managing an awful lot.
....lots of public bodies are having there funding cut - the main reason for this is to force them to run efficiently.....
Wow - you've certainly swallowed the Tory eyewash to mix metaphors somewhat!
Efficiencies have certainly been made - and are still being made - and made- and made etc etc. The Parks can go more commercial and charge more - many wont like that either - and its good for public bodies to be flexible/resilient/fit for purpose or whatever the current jargon is for strapped for cash.
I saw a figure once - a while ago admittedly - that the Royal Opera House received more public money than all the National Parks combined. What is certain is that the Park get very little for managing an awful lot.
2
In reply to Pete O'Donovan:
Up til now the only car park that you had to pay for was the Plantation one. Some folks begrudge paying for something that in the past was free like the Popular and High Neb parks so have just carried on as normal. Last year i went a lot to Stanage and mostly threw a £1 in the box. This year i haven't been much so didnt get a sticker, but have still put a £1 in the box. So I'd advertise the boxes a bit more to encourage a voluntary donation and also installing one at High Neb end as well. The Sticker is a great idea but it doesn't get much from the people who come only a few times a year. if they threw a £1/50p each time it'll soon mount up. you'd have to empty the boxes frequently thou!!
Up til now the only car park that you had to pay for was the Plantation one. Some folks begrudge paying for something that in the past was free like the Popular and High Neb parks so have just carried on as normal. Last year i went a lot to Stanage and mostly threw a £1 in the box. This year i haven't been much so didnt get a sticker, but have still put a £1 in the box. So I'd advertise the boxes a bit more to encourage a voluntary donation and also installing one at High Neb end as well. The Sticker is a great idea but it doesn't get much from the people who come only a few times a year. if they threw a £1/50p each time it'll soon mount up. you'd have to empty the boxes frequently thou!!
In reply to Pete O'Donovan:
Yes. I park at Stanage all the time, have never paid, but will buy one now I'm aware of it.
> Is it a case of poor marketing of the sticker
Yes. I park at Stanage all the time, have never paid, but will buy one now I'm aware of it.
In reply to Bulls Crack:
isn't it good thing, from listening to a manager I know well in a NP, the kind of things they simply wouldn't happen in a business that had to try and make a profit. They have shops which hold much less stock than a corner shop and have 2 people staffing all the time etc.. they franchised the cafes when they should run them in house, gaining the profit and merge the café till area with shop till area. There are endless examples. They do good work, on paths, access and so forth, but they could do even more if they were a little more business minded everywhere else.
Why do the parks need so many offices, HQs, can't they work from existing council offices as many roles like planning applications go to both organisations etc.. they can also merge finances, payrolls etc..
That probably mean the ROH gets too much, not the parks too little?
> Efficiencies have certainly been made - and are still being made - and made- and made etc etc. The Parks can go more commercial and charge more - many wont like that either - and its good for public bodies to be flexible/resilient/fit for purpose or whatever the current jargon is for strapped for cash.
isn't it good thing, from listening to a manager I know well in a NP, the kind of things they simply wouldn't happen in a business that had to try and make a profit. They have shops which hold much less stock than a corner shop and have 2 people staffing all the time etc.. they franchised the cafes when they should run them in house, gaining the profit and merge the café till area with shop till area. There are endless examples. They do good work, on paths, access and so forth, but they could do even more if they were a little more business minded everywhere else.
Why do the parks need so many offices, HQs, can't they work from existing council offices as many roles like planning applications go to both organisations etc.. they can also merge finances, payrolls etc..
> I saw a figure once - a while ago admittedly - that the Royal Opera House received more public money than all the National Parks combined. What is certain is that the Park get very little for managing an awful lot.
That probably mean the ROH gets too much, not the parks too little?
In reply to Bulls Crack:
Doesn't take much to check. 2015 figures are ROH £24.77 million, National Parks £44.7 million. The NPA grant has been falling faster than the ROH grant, so in the recent past at least the difference would have been greater.
> I saw a figure once - a while ago admittedly - that the Royal Opera House received more public money than all the National Parks combined.
Doesn't take much to check. 2015 figures are ROH £24.77 million, National Parks £44.7 million. The NPA grant has been falling faster than the ROH grant, so in the recent past at least the difference would have been greater.
In reply to rogersavery:
I like it. Start your post with a joke to encourage people to read on.
> lots of public bodies are having there funding cut - the main reason for this is to force them to run efficiently.
I like it. Start your post with a joke to encourage people to read on.
1
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
....mainly down to our 'friends' at Derbyshire County Council I'm afraid Simon!
> they could probably save a few pennies by stopping the large scale "restoration" of paths and tracks in such a way as to ruin them entirely...
....mainly down to our 'friends' at Derbyshire County Council I'm afraid Simon!
In reply to paul mitchell:
What park and ride scheme is this?
Can you post more details?
I have tried googling it and found nothing
What park and ride scheme is this?
Can you post more details?
I have tried googling it and found nothing
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
From my, admittedly, back of a fag packet calculations, a Peak Park visitor is subsidised to the tune of 36p. If you go to the Royal Opera House, you're effectively getting a £20 subsidy. Shit, no?
From my, admittedly, back of a fag packet calculations, a Peak Park visitor is subsidised to the tune of 36p. If you go to the Royal Opera House, you're effectively getting a £20 subsidy. Shit, no?
In reply to Timothy:
I'm guessing that you'd have to go down to the campsite at the moment Tim! It's only just happened and, as usual, given the constraints of staff time and, ahem, PDNPA commitment, it hasn't yet made it to the website....
I'm guessing that you'd have to go down to the campsite at the moment Tim! It's only just happened and, as usual, given the constraints of staff time and, ahem, PDNPA commitment, it hasn't yet made it to the website....
In reply to Pete O'Donovan:
Thanks to everyone for replying to this thread. The Stanage Sticker is an ongoing project and, frankly, unless you want some little hitler policing the Stanage car parks, one that has to continue. We're going to take all the suggestions/criticisms and use them to make the scheme work much better next year. Thanks all!!
Thanks to everyone for replying to this thread. The Stanage Sticker is an ongoing project and, frankly, unless you want some little hitler policing the Stanage car parks, one that has to continue. We're going to take all the suggestions/criticisms and use them to make the scheme work much better next year. Thanks all!!
In reply to Cake:
As I understand it, there is a PD car park pass, but it only covers certain car parks, Plantation, Surprise view, one for the chee-dale cornice, possibly more in the south peak, but I park so infrequently at all of those it's not worth having. Also my problem is the excess pressure on free car parks that leads to churning up of verges, bad parking blocking roads etc. Curbar and Burb N. are the worst I can think of.
Edit. Curbar is particularly bad as the laybys half a mile down the hill (and the 2 disabled bays) are normally empty yet the roads blocked by people on the verge opposite.
As I understand it, there is a PD car park pass, but it only covers certain car parks, Plantation, Surprise view, one for the chee-dale cornice, possibly more in the south peak, but I park so infrequently at all of those it's not worth having. Also my problem is the excess pressure on free car parks that leads to churning up of verges, bad parking blocking roads etc. Curbar and Burb N. are the worst I can think of.
Edit. Curbar is particularly bad as the laybys half a mile down the hill (and the 2 disabled bays) are normally empty yet the roads blocked by people on the verge opposite.
Post edited at 11:32
In reply to rogersavery:
There isn't one.
5 or 6 years ago there was a bus service to Stanage that ran half a dozen or so trips on summer Sundays & bank holidays (nothing like every 20 mins), but it wasn't very heavily used and they gave up eventually. Apart from people's reluctance to leave the car and take the bus instead, I think part of the problem was that the last return bus was a bit too early.
> What park and ride scheme is this?
There isn't one.
5 or 6 years ago there was a bus service to Stanage that ran half a dozen or so trips on summer Sundays & bank holidays (nothing like every 20 mins), but it wasn't very heavily used and they gave up eventually. Apart from people's reluctance to leave the car and take the bus instead, I think part of the problem was that the last return bus was a bit too early.
In reply to summo:
A national parks service like Canadas is a nice idea, but I don't think it will ever work in the UK, too many vested interests and complicated land ownership/usage. Not enough foresight to try and improve things for the long term.
A national parks service like Canadas is a nice idea, but I don't think it will ever work in the UK, too many vested interests and complicated land ownership/usage. Not enough foresight to try and improve things for the long term.
In reply to Oliver Houston:
There is. Currently £25 a year if you live in the national park, £40 otherwise.
Because it's issued by the PDNPA it only covers the p&d carparks they run themselves, there's a list here: http://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/visiting/parking/parking-locations
('Hollin Bank' is the Plantation)
> As I understand it, there is a PD car park pass, but it only covers certain car parks..
There is. Currently £25 a year if you live in the national park, £40 otherwise.
Because it's issued by the PDNPA it only covers the p&d carparks they run themselves, there's a list here: http://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/visiting/parking/parking-locations
('Hollin Bank' is the Plantation)
In reply to Oliver Houston:
A question, not to do with Stanage, but to do with Roaches End. There is very limited parking there.
E.g. see here: http://www.roaches.org.uk/Lud%20church%20walk/Walk%201.170%20m.jpg
It had been a practice that, on the occasional sunny weekend, when there was pressure on parking, that people would park on a piece of grass just to the right of the wall in the above picture. That never seemed to be a problem, since it is a hard, well-drained area, and was only used occasionally.
That's now been blocked off -- whether by a farmer, or the new management of the Roaches (Staffordshire Wildlife Trust) I'm not sure. What this means is that more people park semi blocking the road and creating more wear, driving semi up the grass verges to try to get off the road.
So, a question, why was this area blocked off? Was it to try to discourage people from parking near Roach End at all? And, is it actually an improvement, if it causes worse parking in the remaining spots?
> Also my problem is the excess pressure on free car parks that leads to churning up of verges, bad parking blocking roads etc.
A question, not to do with Stanage, but to do with Roaches End. There is very limited parking there.
E.g. see here: http://www.roaches.org.uk/Lud%20church%20walk/Walk%201.170%20m.jpg
It had been a practice that, on the occasional sunny weekend, when there was pressure on parking, that people would park on a piece of grass just to the right of the wall in the above picture. That never seemed to be a problem, since it is a hard, well-drained area, and was only used occasionally.
That's now been blocked off -- whether by a farmer, or the new management of the Roaches (Staffordshire Wildlife Trust) I'm not sure. What this means is that more people park semi blocking the road and creating more wear, driving semi up the grass verges to try to get off the road.
So, a question, why was this area blocked off? Was it to try to discourage people from parking near Roach End at all? And, is it actually an improvement, if it causes worse parking in the remaining spots?
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
Maybe it was just the Lakes or the Peak but the compariosn was still vaid I think; somthing enjoyed by millions or just a few who can afford a ticket
> (In reply to Bulls Crack)
>
> [...]
>
> Doesn't take much to check. 2015 figures are ROH £24.77 million, National Parks £44.7 million. The NPA grant has been falling faster than the ROH grant, so in the recent past at least the difference would have been greater.
>
> [...]
>
> Doesn't take much to check. 2015 figures are ROH £24.77 million, National Parks £44.7 million. The NPA grant has been falling faster than the ROH grant, so in the recent past at least the difference would have been greater.
Maybe it was just the Lakes or the Peak but the compariosn was still vaid I think; somthing enjoyed by millions or just a few who can afford a ticket
In reply to Bulls Crack:
Cheapest ROH tickets are between £4 and £13 depending on production, so to locals it would be cheaper than me driving to Stanage and paying for parking.
And with the ROH the money goes on creating something, with National parks the money is spent on not doing anything.
Apples and oranges though
Cheapest ROH tickets are between £4 and £13 depending on production, so to locals it would be cheaper than me driving to Stanage and paying for parking.
And with the ROH the money goes on creating something, with National parks the money is spent on not doing anything.
Apples and oranges though
1
In reply to Oliver Houston:
It could, but yes the desire is missing. There are so many managers employed in each little NPA, that would lose their jobs, so they would never support it. It would be great for those lower down the food chain though, there could be more people on the ground doing the actual important work and probably paid a little better. The UK's park are pretty small really, but employ a disproportionately large number of people.
> A national parks service like Canadas is a nice idea, but I don't think it will ever work in the UK, too many vested interests and complicated land ownership/usage. Not enough foresight to try and improve things for the long term.
It could, but yes the desire is missing. There are so many managers employed in each little NPA, that would lose their jobs, so they would never support it. It would be great for those lower down the food chain though, there could be more people on the ground doing the actual important work and probably paid a little better. The UK's park are pretty small really, but employ a disproportionately large number of people.
1
In reply to Oliver Houston:
I don't think the comparison with other countries' national parks really works. In the USA and many others, the land in the national park is owned and run by the state. So charging an entry fee makes sense. In the UK, the land is privately owned, with the national park authority taking on some of the duties of the local authority as well as activities specific to national parks. Charging an entry fee to land they don't actually own wouldn't go down well...
> Having just been to Canada, where you pay to be in the national park, and then all the car parks, toilets etc. are free, I agree with this sentiment. We were there for two weeks and a years family pass (for all the major parks in Canada) cost us about £70, cheaper than 14 day passes.
I don't think the comparison with other countries' national parks really works. In the USA and many others, the land in the national park is owned and run by the state. So charging an entry fee makes sense. In the UK, the land is privately owned, with the national park authority taking on some of the duties of the local authority as well as activities specific to national parks. Charging an entry fee to land they don't actually own wouldn't go down well...
2
In reply to Becky E:
I don't think I suggested charging an entry fee to the parks at any point. Bringing up Canada was just to illustrate a different way of doing things, mainly that car parks, laybys, toilets etc. were paid for by the centralised pass.
What I'd like to see is a more efficient way of managing parking. That brings the cost of parking down by charging to park in more areas and enforcing parking to discourage bad parking on roads/verges etc.
I know plenty of people who think paying anything to park is an outrage, I just think paying £4+ a day is an outrage. Ballpark figure I reckon £2/day or £30/year would be about fair for the peak district.
I don't think I suggested charging an entry fee to the parks at any point. Bringing up Canada was just to illustrate a different way of doing things, mainly that car parks, laybys, toilets etc. were paid for by the centralised pass.
What I'd like to see is a more efficient way of managing parking. That brings the cost of parking down by charging to park in more areas and enforcing parking to discourage bad parking on roads/verges etc.
I know plenty of people who think paying anything to park is an outrage, I just think paying £4+ a day is an outrage. Ballpark figure I reckon £2/day or £30/year would be about fair for the peak district.
In reply to Oliver Houston:
I think your ballpark figures are way too low and your outrage is outrageous (but all too common amongst climbers). The full cost of using a car is typically something approaching 40p a mile so why should parking be so cheap? Parking in national parks is commonly in the range of £4 to £10 a day (often avoidable by joining organisations like the NT, discounted for locals, via annual passes etc) which I think is fair enough as a careful balance between revenue (including the running costs) and access.
I think your ballpark figures are way too low and your outrage is outrageous (but all too common amongst climbers). The full cost of using a car is typically something approaching 40p a mile so why should parking be so cheap? Parking in national parks is commonly in the range of £4 to £10 a day (often avoidable by joining organisations like the NT, discounted for locals, via annual passes etc) which I think is fair enough as a careful balance between revenue (including the running costs) and access.
2
2
In reply to Offwidth:
One reason would be that parking in city centres is a similar price, only with the addition of CCTV. £10 per day to leave a car in an unattended car park (often surrounded by trees to give any would-be thieves some privacy) is well above the going rate. Which is why so many people go out of their way to park elsewhere without paying.
> why should parking be so cheap? Parking in national parks is commonly in the range of £4 to £10 a day
One reason would be that parking in city centres is a similar price, only with the addition of CCTV. £10 per day to leave a car in an unattended car park (often surrounded by trees to give any would-be thieves some privacy) is well above the going rate. Which is why so many people go out of their way to park elsewhere without paying.
Persuading the national park to speculate to accumulate is a tough job and, as has already been pointed out, there was a conscious effort not to fundamentally change the character of the campsite.
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
Well above what going rate? In Nottingham I can park in inconvenient unattended parking areas from £5 for a day or 'attended' carparks reliant mainly on poor quality CCTV from about £10 with most of the big carparks with better security (but still nigh on impossible to track damage or theft) being around £15. City centres have a good reasons to keep car parking charges low as people go there to spend money and that pays councils as the shops pay high rates. No one buys anything climbing at Stanage, the only revenue source on site is the parking.
Well above what going rate? In Nottingham I can park in inconvenient unattended parking areas from £5 for a day or 'attended' carparks reliant mainly on poor quality CCTV from about £10 with most of the big carparks with better security (but still nigh on impossible to track damage or theft) being around £15. City centres have a good reasons to keep car parking charges low as people go there to spend money and that pays councils as the shops pay high rates. No one buys anything climbing at Stanage, the only revenue source on site is the parking.
In reply to Bulls Crack:
no why? We have a close friend who is a manager within a park(plus a few other friends who work as rangers etc.) The stuff they tell us that goes on is staggering, it simply wouldn't happen anywhere else. The mismanagement of funds and staff, the general waste is staggering. They've simply had decades of being given money, with no accountability. I was also on a parish council for a few years within a park, so I've had dealings with them from various angles. It's arguable worse than even the likes of DM would say, it's just that the public never sees or hears about it.
> I think you've been reading the Daily Mail?
no why? We have a close friend who is a manager within a park(plus a few other friends who work as rangers etc.) The stuff they tell us that goes on is staggering, it simply wouldn't happen anywhere else. The mismanagement of funds and staff, the general waste is staggering. They've simply had decades of being given money, with no accountability. I was also on a parish council for a few years within a park, so I've had dealings with them from various angles. It's arguable worse than even the likes of DM would say, it's just that the public never sees or hears about it.
1
In reply to Offwidth:
I agree. But the problem is that parking at Stanage is currently free. So if you introduce a charge there is naturally going to be a kick back from climbers and walkers who will rightfully ask "What's in it for me if I pay my £4?" which is kind of the argument against all parking charges. Charging to park is a simple way of collecting money whilst offering little or nothing of value in return to the driver, especially if it was previously free to park.
> Parking in national parks is commonly in the range of £4 to £10 a day
I agree. But the problem is that parking at Stanage is currently free. So if you introduce a charge there is naturally going to be a kick back from climbers and walkers who will rightfully ask "What's in it for me if I pay my £4?" which is kind of the argument against all parking charges. Charging to park is a simple way of collecting money whilst offering little or nothing of value in return to the driver, especially if it was previously free to park.
In reply to ByEek:
I thought the plantation was pay and display?
> I agree. But the problem is that parking at Stanage is currently free.
I thought the plantation was pay and display?
In reply to Offwidth:
> Well above what going rate?
Leeds City Centre is £6 per day> No one buys anything climbing at Stanage
But many of those who go there will head for hathersage or elsewhere before/after climbing for gear/cafe shopping. Likewise in most of the national parks.> City centres have a good reasons to keep car parking charges low
And national parks/FC/etc should have good reasons as well, as if prices are too high then people will park elsewhere and they will get nothing. In reply to galpinos:
It is. And whilst there is parking on just about every verge available at the Popular and High Nebb ends, the Plantation is always half full at best.
> I thought the plantation was pay and display?
It is. And whilst there is parking on just about every verge available at the Popular and High Nebb ends, the Plantation is always half full at best.
In reply to ByEek:
It means I always get a spot! The parking on the verges around the plantation is a nightmare, that does need sorting.
> It is. And whilst there is parking on just about every verge available at the Popular and High Nebb ends, the Plantation is always half full at best.
It means I always get a spot! The parking on the verges around the plantation is a nightmare, that does need sorting.
In reply to galpinos:
Agreed. My solution to the problem is to simply get out of bed a bit earlier. I am always amazed that so few people are up there at 7am on a superb summer Sunday!
Agreed. My solution to the problem is to simply get out of bed a bit earlier. I am always amazed that so few people are up there at 7am on a superb summer Sunday!
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
I think you mean from £6 unless I was dreaming about some of the Leeds NCP prices.
National parks don't gain revenue from those nearby shops in towns (that sometimes also charge to park).
Most areas have nearby free parking in the Peak if you turn up early enough ... the entitlement in this free parking from climbers who are more than happy to drive with those costs and park inappropriately, often due to a lack of thought about car sharing, can be galling if its potentially affecting access. The new Stanage deal is a good one and the standard day prices in the Plantation are not bad and climbers are causing real problems by parking on verges to avoid payment.
I think you mean from £6 unless I was dreaming about some of the Leeds NCP prices.
National parks don't gain revenue from those nearby shops in towns (that sometimes also charge to park).
Most areas have nearby free parking in the Peak if you turn up early enough ... the entitlement in this free parking from climbers who are more than happy to drive with those costs and park inappropriately, often due to a lack of thought about car sharing, can be galling if its potentially affecting access. The new Stanage deal is a good one and the standard day prices in the Plantation are not bad and climbers are causing real problems by parking on verges to avoid payment.
3
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
I think there's a strong element of wishful thinking there. Outside has downsized in recent years, and I don't think the footfall in H/sage reflects the visitors to that part of the Peak.
Not paying for parking which support the upkeep of the estate is like trying on 8 pairs of boots in a shop and then buying them online 'cos they're cheaper.
> Leeds City Centre is £6 per day
> But many of those who go there will head for hathersage or elsewhere before/after climbing for gear/cafe shopping. Likewise in most of the national parks.
I think there's a strong element of wishful thinking there. Outside has downsized in recent years, and I don't think the footfall in H/sage reflects the visitors to that part of the Peak.
Not paying for parking which support the upkeep of the estate is like trying on 8 pairs of boots in a shop and then buying them online 'cos they're cheaper.
Post edited at 16:07
1
In reply to toad:
So, totally understandable and expected then?
> Not paying for parking which support the upkeep of the estate is like trying on 8 pairs of boots in a shop and then buying them online 'cos they're cheaper.
So, totally understandable and expected then?
1
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