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In a new series on UKClimbing, we have teamed up with Plas-y-Brenin, the National Mountain Sports Centre, to cover a wide range of basic climbing techniques.. We will be explaining everything from putting on harnesses and tying figure of eights, to building belays and leading.Read more
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In reply to UKC Articles:
I would have thought PyB would have had the balls to teach this tie in without the unnecessary addition of a 'stopper' knot.
A fig 8 ain't going to come undone or pull through unless tied with wire!
I would have thought PyB would have had the balls to teach this tie in without the unnecessary addition of a 'stopper' knot.
A fig 8 ain't going to come undone or pull through unless tied with wire!
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In reply to top cat:
Hi Top Cat,
I opted for the stopper knot, not because a figure of eight would come undone without it, but because it's good practice to use one, and it adds another level of safety. I personally use stopper knots and I rate them. If you're tired, it's dark, the ropes are frozen, you're big walling and staying tied in all day etc, then why not have a bit extra on the knot? That was my thinking and the PyB guys agreed. They're well in to the belts and braces approach, and it seems sensible to me!
Not sure what it's got to do with my balls though, but we had fun making the videos!
Cheers,
Jack
Hi Top Cat,
I opted for the stopper knot, not because a figure of eight would come undone without it, but because it's good practice to use one, and it adds another level of safety. I personally use stopper knots and I rate them. If you're tired, it's dark, the ropes are frozen, you're big walling and staying tied in all day etc, then why not have a bit extra on the knot? That was my thinking and the PyB guys agreed. They're well in to the belts and braces approach, and it seems sensible to me!
Not sure what it's got to do with my balls though, but we had fun making the videos!
Cheers,
Jack
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In reply to UKC Articles:
I reckon the video would have benefitted from:
1. Explaining why you went top down
2. Why you tied a stopper
3. Why you had the loop a similar size to the belay loop
(Plus doing it somewhere less windy)
I reckon the video would have benefitted from:
1. Explaining why you went top down
2. Why you tied a stopper
3. Why you had the loop a similar size to the belay loop
(Plus doing it somewhere less windy)
Post edited at 18:28
In reply to Jack Geldard - UKC Chief Editor:
Jack, I think stating that 'you're tied in all day' kind of runs counter to your argument of 'a bit extra on the knot'. However I'm not fanatical on that point and I do tie a stopper.
For me the benefit is that if belaying from the loop there are certain situations where the knot could potentially roll (flamers read the potentially) and including a stopper covers all occasions - better to be looking at it, than for it, so to speak.
Jack, I think stating that 'you're tied in all day' kind of runs counter to your argument of 'a bit extra on the knot'. However I'm not fanatical on that point and I do tie a stopper.
For me the benefit is that if belaying from the loop there are certain situations where the knot could potentially roll (flamers read the potentially) and including a stopper covers all occasions - better to be looking at it, than for it, so to speak.
In reply to UKC Articles:
About a week ago I was at a climbing wall. There was a certain 'local hero' type dude there. At one juncture, he began tying his knot (figure of eight), without looking at it. This wasn't an exhibition of competence! He was staring vacantly at someone, eyes glazed over, obviously thinking about something. (I was staring intently at him in utter horror!) His figure of eight wasn't really happening. In the end, it kind of slid apart, he nonchalantly abandoned it and went off to do something else.
By contrast, all you have to do is what Jack's doing in the video - carefully, thoughtfully, as though your life's on the line (it is). I'm sure there are lots of refinements. But... all you have to do is what Jack's doing in the video.
Mick
About a week ago I was at a climbing wall. There was a certain 'local hero' type dude there. At one juncture, he began tying his knot (figure of eight), without looking at it. This wasn't an exhibition of competence! He was staring vacantly at someone, eyes glazed over, obviously thinking about something. (I was staring intently at him in utter horror!) His figure of eight wasn't really happening. In the end, it kind of slid apart, he nonchalantly abandoned it and went off to do something else.
By contrast, all you have to do is what Jack's doing in the video - carefully, thoughtfully, as though your life's on the line (it is). I'm sure there are lots of refinements. But... all you have to do is what Jack's doing in the video.
Mick
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In reply to top cat:
You still need to leave a reasonable tail when tying a fig 8 to remove entirely the risk of the end pulling through when tightened. Having done so, if I leave it loose, there's a risk that when "in extremis" I'll inadvertently clip my gear to the tail instead of the live rope. For this reason I'll always tie a stopper' to keep the end out of the way.
You still need to leave a reasonable tail when tying a fig 8 to remove entirely the risk of the end pulling through when tightened. Having done so, if I leave it loose, there's a risk that when "in extremis" I'll inadvertently clip my gear to the tail instead of the live rope. For this reason I'll always tie a stopper' to keep the end out of the way.
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In reply to jezb1:
See my post...its wrong top to bottom!!!!...its so backwards!!!!
stopper knot always adds that bit more safety!!!!
having seen accidents at climbing wall.... where climber hit the ground!!!..and outdoors where he didnt..double ropes!!
but as we all do back indoors...and feel so comfortable about it...chatting with mates etc...its still dangerous
just trying to raise awareness..even if "tougue incheek"...it may make climbers look and think!!
Cheers
Nick B
See my post...its wrong top to bottom!!!!...its so backwards!!!!
stopper knot always adds that bit more safety!!!!
having seen accidents at climbing wall.... where climber hit the ground!!!..and outdoors where he didnt..double ropes!!
but as we all do back indoors...and feel so comfortable about it...chatting with mates etc...its still dangerous
just trying to raise awareness..even if "tougue incheek"...it may make climbers look and think!!
Cheers
Nick B
In reply to astley007:
Always thought threading top to bottom was the correct way because if you only thread one loop (the top one) then at least you've threaded the most important one! Have seen several climbers get distracted and have only threaded a single loop by mistake....
Always thought threading top to bottom was the correct way because if you only thread one loop (the top one) then at least you've threaded the most important one! Have seen several climbers get distracted and have only threaded a single loop by mistake....
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In reply to UKC Articles:
Bowline man myself, quicker and easier and I use a double stopper on it. Unties easier after a fall and no danger of leaving the knot in the rope if pulling through.
Bowline man myself, quicker and easier and I use a double stopper on it. Unties easier after a fall and no danger of leaving the knot in the rope if pulling through.
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In reply to Mick Ward:
Well said Mick ! All you have to do is concentrate on what you're doing (like your life may depend on it). Still amazes me that there aren't more accidents at climbing walls.
Well said Mick ! All you have to do is concentrate on what you're doing (like your life may depend on it). Still amazes me that there aren't more accidents at climbing walls.
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In reply to Simon Caldwell:
Aye, I've seen this happen!
We just tuck back into the knot, solves that problem and makes it easier to undo after a big fall.
> You still need to leave a reasonable tail when tying a fig 8 to remove entirely the risk of the end pulling through when tightened. Having done so, if I leave it loose, there's a risk that when "in extremis" I'll inadvertently clip my gear to the tail instead of the live rope. For this reason I'll always tie a stopper' to keep the end out of the way.
Aye, I've seen this happen!
We just tuck back into the knot, solves that problem and makes it easier to undo after a big fall.
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In reply to Ciderslider:
Hi Mark, hope you're well! I agree, it amazes me that there aren't (many) more accidents at walls. Not that they're unsafe, quite the reverse, they're as safe as it ever can be. But of course people feel safe and therein lies the danger. If you're tying in at the bottom of Red Wall or Cloggy, chances are you'll be concerned with safety - and rightly so. So you'll probably be paying more attention to tying your knot.
For me, the biggest danger re tying in is 'operator error' and I think there are two golden 'rules':
1. Don't talk to anyone when you or they are tying in. (This is surprisingly hard, especially for me, as you well know, a real chatterbox!)
2. Checking each other's knot. A local guy, Dr Steve, has got us all doing this. He used to chant in a soft Chinese voice, "Checking me, checking you..." a la Abba. Now it's a bloody earworm in my brain! But if it's an earworm which saves lives...
On a wall, you might be doing 20 or 30 routes. It takes real discipline to do the same procedure with the same diligence, again and again and again. But if you fluff it just once - that's enough.
I've always imagined Lynn Hill being as focused, safe and disciplined as it gets. But her knot came undone and she went the length of the crag at Buoux. It was amazing that she survived. If it can happen to her, it can happen to any of us - unless we have a strict prodecure and an even stricter check.
Rant over!
Mick
Hi Mark, hope you're well! I agree, it amazes me that there aren't (many) more accidents at walls. Not that they're unsafe, quite the reverse, they're as safe as it ever can be. But of course people feel safe and therein lies the danger. If you're tying in at the bottom of Red Wall or Cloggy, chances are you'll be concerned with safety - and rightly so. So you'll probably be paying more attention to tying your knot.
For me, the biggest danger re tying in is 'operator error' and I think there are two golden 'rules':
1. Don't talk to anyone when you or they are tying in. (This is surprisingly hard, especially for me, as you well know, a real chatterbox!)
2. Checking each other's knot. A local guy, Dr Steve, has got us all doing this. He used to chant in a soft Chinese voice, "Checking me, checking you..." a la Abba. Now it's a bloody earworm in my brain! But if it's an earworm which saves lives...
On a wall, you might be doing 20 or 30 routes. It takes real discipline to do the same procedure with the same diligence, again and again and again. But if you fluff it just once - that's enough.
I've always imagined Lynn Hill being as focused, safe and disciplined as it gets. But her knot came undone and she went the length of the crag at Buoux. It was amazing that she survived. If it can happen to her, it can happen to any of us - unless we have a strict prodecure and an even stricter check.
Rant over!
Mick
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In reply to top cat:
I used to do that and have no idea why I stopped! Will probably change back now you've reminded me
> We just tuck back into the knot, solves that problem and makes it easier to undo after a big fall.
I used to do that and have no idea why I stopped! Will probably change back now you've reminded me
In reply to UKC Articles:
Me and my 8yr old daughter only learned to tie in 12mths ago. Videos like this and a few words of advice from friends were what got us onto the walls to begin with.
As pure beginners we are probably less likely to get into the comfort zone more experienced climbers get into. We have a set routine before every climb
1) She ties her figure 8 (She is better than me at it), She threads her harness and retraces the figure 8, She ties the stopper knot
2) I ALWAYS run my finger along the rope past the top and bottom loop to check. Whilst doing so I visually check her knots.
3) She ALWAYS grabs the carabiner on my harness to check it is locked.
It takes seconds and is really as much part of the routine as her putting her climbing shoes on.
Still managed to look like complete idiots recently when we were climbing at a different wall. We are not used to doing top ropes much these days so when she set of I hadn't even checked the state of the rope. It was twisted up about 20times. Mate came running over and pointed it out when she was about 9ft off the deck. Whoops
Me and my 8yr old daughter only learned to tie in 12mths ago. Videos like this and a few words of advice from friends were what got us onto the walls to begin with.
As pure beginners we are probably less likely to get into the comfort zone more experienced climbers get into. We have a set routine before every climb
1) She ties her figure 8 (She is better than me at it), She threads her harness and retraces the figure 8, She ties the stopper knot
2) I ALWAYS run my finger along the rope past the top and bottom loop to check. Whilst doing so I visually check her knots.
3) She ALWAYS grabs the carabiner on my harness to check it is locked.
It takes seconds and is really as much part of the routine as her putting her climbing shoes on.
Still managed to look like complete idiots recently when we were climbing at a different wall. We are not used to doing top ropes much these days so when she set of I hadn't even checked the state of the rope. It was twisted up about 20times. Mate came running over and pointed it out when she was about 9ft off the deck. Whoops
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In reply to UKC Articles:
I would also add, doubling the loop around the harness tie in points in order to make it easier to untie after a fall. This has the effect of the loop taking the strain not the knot.
I would also add, doubling the loop around the harness tie in points in order to make it easier to untie after a fall. This has the effect of the loop taking the strain not the knot.
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In reply to UKC Articles:
When I'm teaching people I really couldn't care if they tie top to bottom or bottom to top; there are already plenty of things that actually matter they have to remember. I would rather they just do it right, then their partner checks they did it right, rather than worrying about minor differences if they screw it up... It is easy to provide information overload. Equally I tell them to properly buddy check the Fig 8, and not really worry about checking the stopper - the important thing is that the Fig 8 is right. We also get them to check harness, tie-in, belay devices etc...
The interesting thing about buddy checks is that even when people do them they often don't _really_ do them. It is actually very hard to see what is really there as opposed to what you are expecting to see... The worst example I saw was when I let two students check each other. When I asked if they were ready, they did another quick check and went '... fine?'. I then pointed out that the belay screwgate was actually open (it was hung up on the gate), not even just unlocked! Equally I see so many people give the knot a cursory glance and declare it good, even if their partner has helpfully grabbed it and waved it around at them (and consequently hidden the knot with their hands)... Sometimes I can check a Fig 8 across a room happily, sometimes I have to grab it and have a proper look.
I teach people to check what is really there; it is surprisingly hard!
When I'm teaching people I really couldn't care if they tie top to bottom or bottom to top; there are already plenty of things that actually matter they have to remember. I would rather they just do it right, then their partner checks they did it right, rather than worrying about minor differences if they screw it up... It is easy to provide information overload. Equally I tell them to properly buddy check the Fig 8, and not really worry about checking the stopper - the important thing is that the Fig 8 is right. We also get them to check harness, tie-in, belay devices etc...
The interesting thing about buddy checks is that even when people do them they often don't _really_ do them. It is actually very hard to see what is really there as opposed to what you are expecting to see... The worst example I saw was when I let two students check each other. When I asked if they were ready, they did another quick check and went '... fine?'. I then pointed out that the belay screwgate was actually open (it was hung up on the gate), not even just unlocked! Equally I see so many people give the knot a cursory glance and declare it good, even if their partner has helpfully grabbed it and waved it around at them (and consequently hidden the knot with their hands)... Sometimes I can check a Fig 8 across a room happily, sometimes I have to grab it and have a proper look.
I teach people to check what is really there; it is surprisingly hard!
Post edited at 12:57
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In reply to UKC Articles:
Any chance of getting some more complicated instruction from the next plas y brenin video? I can do assisted hoists and unassisted hoists, the stuff I'd like to know more about is multipitch rescue for a climbing pair, winter or summer?
Any chance of getting some more complicated instruction from the next plas y brenin video? I can do assisted hoists and unassisted hoists, the stuff I'd like to know more about is multipitch rescue for a climbing pair, winter or summer?
In reply to jonnie3430:
Hi Jonnie,
We've already made this series, and it will be coming out a bit at a time for the next few months - and it is aimed squarely at beginners. It goes from tying in, through to basic leading.
We MIGHT do a follow-up series next year that is more complicated/advanced, but what you are asking for would be hard to cover in a video I think! Might be worth booking a guide / instructor/ PyB style course for that sort of thing.
Cheers,
Jack
Hi Jonnie,
We've already made this series, and it will be coming out a bit at a time for the next few months - and it is aimed squarely at beginners. It goes from tying in, through to basic leading.
We MIGHT do a follow-up series next year that is more complicated/advanced, but what you are asking for would be hard to cover in a video I think! Might be worth booking a guide / instructor/ PyB style course for that sort of thing.
Cheers,
Jack
In reply to Jack Geldard - UKC Chief Editor:
Cheers jack, I have the Libby Peters book, and I've been shown how to get a hanging climber off their rope and onto yours twice by instructors. Once was using a rope hanging off a balcony, so a video should be easily doable, especially if it had hints and tips and different situations, including funnies for winter. It'd be a good source of reference and I'd be able to point partners at it in case it was me...
I can't be the only one trying to increase safety knowledge? A video goes to a wider audience and lasts longer than an instructor in a lesson.
Cheers jack, I have the Libby Peters book, and I've been shown how to get a hanging climber off their rope and onto yours twice by instructors. Once was using a rope hanging off a balcony, so a video should be easily doable, especially if it had hints and tips and different situations, including funnies for winter. It'd be a good source of reference and I'd be able to point partners at it in case it was me...
I can't be the only one trying to increase safety knowledge? A video goes to a wider audience and lasts longer than an instructor in a lesson.
In reply to jonnie3430:
Steve Long and Olly Sanders did a self rescue DVD some time ago that is still very useful.
Extracts from it are also on Youtube/Vimeo and are worth seeking out.
Steve Long and Olly Sanders did a self rescue DVD some time ago that is still very useful.
Extracts from it are also on Youtube/Vimeo and are worth seeking out.
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In reply to jonnie3430:
I shall speak to the PyB chaps and see what we can do Jonnie!
Most rescues boil down to variations on the same procedures, so we might well be able to come up with something next year.
Cheers!
Jack
I shall speak to the PyB chaps and see what we can do Jonnie!
Most rescues boil down to variations on the same procedures, so we might well be able to come up with something next year.
Cheers!
Jack
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It is really cool that people care to film and do instructional videos, but that's the point of making yet another video about figure 8 which does not add anything new or shows some alternative method?
In reply to andrewmcleod:
Do they fully realise that, if they get the check wrong, chances are somebody's going to die? It's that important!!!
In my own checks, I want pattern recognition. I use a bowline and a double fisherman's. The big question for me when checking my own knot - is there a symmetrical curve to the bowline? (This is too hard to describe, like describing tying your shoelaces but simple in practice.) And are the double fisherman's symmetrical - and taut?
My partner will almost certainly be using a figure of eight. Again, is it symmetrical (pattern recognition)? And is their stopper symmetrical (again, pattern recogntion)?
Of course, if they're using some knot I don't understand, I'm reduced to nagging them, "Are you're sure you're tied on OK?"
I must sound like some knot Nazi. I'm knot(!) But, if you've not tied on properly, everything else, the runners, the belay - everything - goes right out the window. You're stuffed. And if I'm gonna pop my clogs, I'd rather do it soloing by choice - not soloing in reality 'cos I couldn't be arsed to tie on properly.
It's just commonsense (boringly uncommon).
Mick
> I teach people to check what is really there; it is surprisingly hard!
Do they fully realise that, if they get the check wrong, chances are somebody's going to die? It's that important!!!
In my own checks, I want pattern recognition. I use a bowline and a double fisherman's. The big question for me when checking my own knot - is there a symmetrical curve to the bowline? (This is too hard to describe, like describing tying your shoelaces but simple in practice.) And are the double fisherman's symmetrical - and taut?
My partner will almost certainly be using a figure of eight. Again, is it symmetrical (pattern recognition)? And is their stopper symmetrical (again, pattern recogntion)?
Of course, if they're using some knot I don't understand, I'm reduced to nagging them, "Are you're sure you're tied on OK?"
I must sound like some knot Nazi. I'm knot(!) But, if you've not tied on properly, everything else, the runners, the belay - everything - goes right out the window. You're stuffed. And if I'm gonna pop my clogs, I'd rather do it soloing by choice - not soloing in reality 'cos I couldn't be arsed to tie on properly.
It's just commonsense (boringly uncommon).
Mick
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In reply to Simon Caldwell:
You have probably been brain-washed by the flock of sheep )
> I used to do that and have no idea why I stopped! Will probably change back now you've reminded me
You have probably been brain-washed by the flock of sheep )
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In reply to top cat:
Something to be aware of is that if you use the rope loop rather than the harness belay loop as the place you clip your belay device, then there is a small chance that the tie-in knot will be ring-loaded (the tie-in itself has to have slack in it for this to occur though). If that somehow happens, you are basically dealing with the discredited figure-8 version of the Euro Death Knot, which has resulted in documented fatalities because the knot can roll towards the ends.
I think this means that if you do clip your belay device to the rope loop, a backup knot is essential to guard against the knot rolling under load and in that sense isn't "merely" an "extra" safety precaution. Of course the same considerations might apply if, for some reason, you clip something into your rope loop and weight it.
As for tucking the free end back through the knot, this seems to be a pretty bad idea because there are ways of doing this that make the knot far more likely to roll; see for example vimeo.com/40767916.
All this is even more essential with a bowline, which will not stand up to ring-loading at all without a backup knot.
Personally, I use a bowline with the Yosemite finish AND a half-grapevine backup.
Something to be aware of is that if you use the rope loop rather than the harness belay loop as the place you clip your belay device, then there is a small chance that the tie-in knot will be ring-loaded (the tie-in itself has to have slack in it for this to occur though). If that somehow happens, you are basically dealing with the discredited figure-8 version of the Euro Death Knot, which has resulted in documented fatalities because the knot can roll towards the ends.
I think this means that if you do clip your belay device to the rope loop, a backup knot is essential to guard against the knot rolling under load and in that sense isn't "merely" an "extra" safety precaution. Of course the same considerations might apply if, for some reason, you clip something into your rope loop and weight it.
As for tucking the free end back through the knot, this seems to be a pretty bad idea because there are ways of doing this that make the knot far more likely to roll; see for example vimeo.com/40767916.
All this is even more essential with a bowline, which will not stand up to ring-loading at all without a backup knot.
Personally, I use a bowline with the Yosemite finish AND a half-grapevine backup.
Post edited at 02:53
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In reply to rgold:
A genuine question: can you supply evidence that this has ever actually happened? That an eight without a stopper has rolled due whilst in use as a belay loop and killed someone?
I asked that question last time we went over this and no-one did, making me think that it's just an oft-repeated myth. I know it's possible to make an eight roll when used as a knot to join two ropes in an abseil but that's a very different application.
> ...there is a small chance that the tie-in knot will be ring-loaded (the tie-in itself has to have slack in it for this to occur though). If that somehow happens, you are basically dealing with the discredited figure-8 version of the Euro Death Knot, which has resulted in documented fatalities...
A genuine question: can you supply evidence that this has ever actually happened? That an eight without a stopper has rolled due whilst in use as a belay loop and killed someone?
I asked that question last time we went over this and no-one did, making me think that it's just an oft-repeated myth. I know it's possible to make an eight roll when used as a knot to join two ropes in an abseil but that's a very different application.
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In reply to Jamie Wakeham:
It has never happened "in the field" as far as I know, but I am very distantly connected to the European scene, where the sheer numbers of participants make it more likely. There is the video, which seems unrealistic with its heavy slow loading. So who want's to be the first to make this happen for real rather than put in a simple backup knot?
It has never happened "in the field" as far as I know, but I am very distantly connected to the European scene, where the sheer numbers of participants make it more likely. There is the video, which seems unrealistic with its heavy slow loading. So who want's to be the first to make this happen for real rather than put in a simple backup knot?
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In reply to rgold:
I've never heard of it happening for real. I've also held plenty of falls which ring load my knot (sans stopper) and never seen it show any signs of rolling.
I've never heard of it happening for real. I've also held plenty of falls which ring load my knot (sans stopper) and never seen it show any signs of rolling.
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In reply to rgold: For what its worth i usually use a stopper knot with a rethreaded fig 8. But I'd have though that the number of people using a rethreaded 8 without a stopper seems to show that (well tied and dressed) it doesn't fail by ring loading. The DAV even recommend it as one of their standard tie ins: http://www.alpenverein.de/chameleon/public/c58e1053-56fb-9be4-8dc3-0feda00a... pp2-3 and they seem to be well known for testing what they recommend?
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In reply to AlH:
I'm always banging on about this when teaching, hate seeing a messy knot!
> (well tied and dressed)
I'm always banging on about this when teaching, hate seeing a messy knot!
In reply to rgold:
So here's my take on it:
1) There has never been an incident reported where a ring-loaded eight has failed due to being used as a belay loop.
2) Even if this could occur, I have yet to see any evidence that adding a stopper actually helps. Lots of people assert that you might as well have the back-up, but I'm not at all sure it actually does anything to strengthen an eight. Yes it's critical with a bowline, but I think this has been conflated to 'stopper knots make ALL tie-in knots stronger'.
3) There ARE documented cases of incidents where a tie-in knot has failed (eg Lynn Hill and others) because the climber was distracted whilst tying it and ballsed it up.
Given that - why make tying in a longer and more complicated process? Anything which makes it more likely that the climber could stop focussing on the knot whilst tying in actually makes it more dangerous, not less. And increasing the time it takes will do this.
In addition, the idea that having a stopper makes up for not laying the original knot correctly can lead to a thought pattern that goes 'I've not got the eight looking all that great, but it's OK, I'll put a stopper on too and it'll be fine'. I've seen some monstrosities at the wall and, on discussion, found that novices especially think that everything is OK as long as they have their stopper in!
I'm sure there was something along these lines in Professional Mountaineer a while ago but I've not got that edition any more.
So here's my take on it:
1) There has never been an incident reported where a ring-loaded eight has failed due to being used as a belay loop.
2) Even if this could occur, I have yet to see any evidence that adding a stopper actually helps. Lots of people assert that you might as well have the back-up, but I'm not at all sure it actually does anything to strengthen an eight. Yes it's critical with a bowline, but I think this has been conflated to 'stopper knots make ALL tie-in knots stronger'.
3) There ARE documented cases of incidents where a tie-in knot has failed (eg Lynn Hill and others) because the climber was distracted whilst tying it and ballsed it up.
Given that - why make tying in a longer and more complicated process? Anything which makes it more likely that the climber could stop focussing on the knot whilst tying in actually makes it more dangerous, not less. And increasing the time it takes will do this.
In addition, the idea that having a stopper makes up for not laying the original knot correctly can lead to a thought pattern that goes 'I've not got the eight looking all that great, but it's OK, I'll put a stopper on too and it'll be fine'. I've seen some monstrosities at the wall and, on discussion, found that novices especially think that everything is OK as long as they have their stopper in!
I'm sure there was something along these lines in Professional Mountaineer a while ago but I've not got that edition any more.
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:
Hmm...I seem to be disagreeing with myself on this; see http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=520297, where I find myself to be more coherent than above,
I got more cautious after thinking about the terrible tragedy, I think discussed on this site, in which someone died rappelling on two ropes joined with a flat figure-eight which rolled open. Before that happened, the flat figure eight was recommended in several places, including an AMGA technique manual, as a more secure version of the flat overhand (EDK) for joining two ropes. The knot that failed was, of course, subjected to slow intermittent loading, whereas a ring-loaded figure eight used to hold a belay plate would be subjected to higher but much briefer loading.
Two lessons reinforced by that tragedy are that intuition is not necessarily a reliable guide to reality, and there are no recorded incidents of some particular failure until there is such an incident.
Of course, if you try to inoculate yourself against every possible danger, you'll never get off the ground (or out of your house). So my take is that precautions for highly unlikely outcomes are worth taking only if they don't consume a lot of time and effort and/or do not require you to load up on specialized gear. Where backup knots fall in the consumption of time and effort metric depends, I guess, on the individual.
Personally, I never use a figure eight, so the subject is primarily of academic interest to me.
Hmm...I seem to be disagreeing with myself on this; see http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=520297, where I find myself to be more coherent than above,
I got more cautious after thinking about the terrible tragedy, I think discussed on this site, in which someone died rappelling on two ropes joined with a flat figure-eight which rolled open. Before that happened, the flat figure eight was recommended in several places, including an AMGA technique manual, as a more secure version of the flat overhand (EDK) for joining two ropes. The knot that failed was, of course, subjected to slow intermittent loading, whereas a ring-loaded figure eight used to hold a belay plate would be subjected to higher but much briefer loading.
Two lessons reinforced by that tragedy are that intuition is not necessarily a reliable guide to reality, and there are no recorded incidents of some particular failure until there is such an incident.
Of course, if you try to inoculate yourself against every possible danger, you'll never get off the ground (or out of your house). So my take is that precautions for highly unlikely outcomes are worth taking only if they don't consume a lot of time and effort and/or do not require you to load up on specialized gear. Where backup knots fall in the consumption of time and effort metric depends, I guess, on the individual.
Personally, I never use a figure eight, so the subject is primarily of academic interest to me.
2
In reply to rgold:
Ah - I hadn't spotted that you've contributed to this type of thread before! Seems we've both looked at this many times and in some detail.
I think we're more or less in agreement, actually. I certainly agree that additional precautions are only warranted if they protect against a relatively likely failure and/or don't consume significant time or resources.
My problem is that I have yet to see actual evidence that the 8 can roll when exposed to short, sharp impacts when used as a belay loop - the videos and reports that I have seen only look at gradual loading as per an abseil situation.
I also have yet to see anything to back up the assertion that a stopper would prevent such rolling if it occurred.
On the other hand I do believe the assertion that adding an extra stage to tying in makes it more likely that a climber will get distracted halfway through and not get the important bit of the knot right. And I also believe that adding extra, superfluous 'safety' measures can distract from the important elements of a system.
What is always frustrating about these threads is that we get to this point, and it's patently obvious that an hour or two with a fall test rig would tell us what we want to know. The next act is that someone suggests that we contact the BMC or DMM to ask if they will do such a test. And then nothing ever seems to come of it..! And six months later someone mentions belaying off the rope loop, and we all go round again.
Ah - I hadn't spotted that you've contributed to this type of thread before! Seems we've both looked at this many times and in some detail.
I think we're more or less in agreement, actually. I certainly agree that additional precautions are only warranted if they protect against a relatively likely failure and/or don't consume significant time or resources.
My problem is that I have yet to see actual evidence that the 8 can roll when exposed to short, sharp impacts when used as a belay loop - the videos and reports that I have seen only look at gradual loading as per an abseil situation.
I also have yet to see anything to back up the assertion that a stopper would prevent such rolling if it occurred.
On the other hand I do believe the assertion that adding an extra stage to tying in makes it more likely that a climber will get distracted halfway through and not get the important bit of the knot right. And I also believe that adding extra, superfluous 'safety' measures can distract from the important elements of a system.
What is always frustrating about these threads is that we get to this point, and it's patently obvious that an hour or two with a fall test rig would tell us what we want to know. The next act is that someone suggests that we contact the BMC or DMM to ask if they will do such a test. And then nothing ever seems to come of it..! And six months later someone mentions belaying off the rope loop, and we all go round again.
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