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I'm canvassing for opinions.
I've been using a DMM Revolver Karabiner on a QD for lowering the first person/s on a sports route to save wear and tear on both the lower off and my rope. I've also see people using them on the first bolt for similar reasons but I'm not sure that I want less friction in the system when I am in a position where I might fall. I therefore have a couple of questions. Do you consider this to be a issue (Revolver on first bolt)and secondly if it's not a serious issue why not use a Revolver on both the lower off and the first bolt?
Al
I've been using a DMM Revolver Karabiner on a QD for lowering the first person/s on a sports route to save wear and tear on both the lower off and my rope. I've also see people using them on the first bolt for similar reasons but I'm not sure that I want less friction in the system when I am in a position where I might fall. I therefore have a couple of questions. Do you consider this to be a issue (Revolver on first bolt)and secondly if it's not a serious issue why not use a Revolver on both the lower off and the first bolt?
Al
1
In reply to GridNorth:
Hi Al,
I use a Revolver sometimes when sport climbing, usually if there's a big dog leg in the bolt line, or under a roof, though occasionally on the first bolt too. Whether I'd use one or not on the first bolt depends inter alia on how likely I am to fall and the spacing of the first bolts - if there's high decking potential, I won't use one.
I don't use one on the lower-off, however, because I'm lighter than almost everyone I climb with, and having extra friction is worth any extra wear on the rope - and it just seems unnecessary.
Henry
Hi Al,
I use a Revolver sometimes when sport climbing, usually if there's a big dog leg in the bolt line, or under a roof, though occasionally on the first bolt too. Whether I'd use one or not on the first bolt depends inter alia on how likely I am to fall and the spacing of the first bolts - if there's high decking potential, I won't use one.
I don't use one on the lower-off, however, because I'm lighter than almost everyone I climb with, and having extra friction is worth any extra wear on the rope - and it just seems unnecessary.
Henry
In reply to GridNorth: On the first point, I often do the same but generally if we're going to work to route on top-rope, where the lower friction helps when pulling yourself up. That said since you've mentioned it, your reasoning of reducing wear (as well as reducing friction) makes a good deal of sense.
On the second, I share your slight concerns. The quote from the latest Rockfax Dorset guide:
Always belay close to the rock face with the rope going straight up through the quickdraw clipped to the first bolt. Belaying a long way from the rock face puts a heavy outward loading on the bottom bolt which has caused problems with some bolts in the area. It is also a dangerous practice since both leader and belayer can get hurt in the event of a fall.
If you're belaying close in, there is no need or benefit to using a Revolver.
However there is another situation where I find a Revolver most useful. That is clipping back to the rope when stripping overhanging routes. The reduced friction makes things a bit easier.
They are also great to place on redpoint crux bolts if you want a softer catch when repeatedly falling off, provided of course you're not worried about hitting anything.
On the second, I share your slight concerns. The quote from the latest Rockfax Dorset guide:
Always belay close to the rock face with the rope going straight up through the quickdraw clipped to the first bolt. Belaying a long way from the rock face puts a heavy outward loading on the bottom bolt which has caused problems with some bolts in the area. It is also a dangerous practice since both leader and belayer can get hurt in the event of a fall.
If you're belaying close in, there is no need or benefit to using a Revolver.
However there is another situation where I find a Revolver most useful. That is clipping back to the rope when stripping overhanging routes. The reduced friction makes things a bit easier.
They are also great to place on redpoint crux bolts if you want a softer catch when repeatedly falling off, provided of course you're not worried about hitting anything.
In reply to GridNorth:
Hmm, doubt it saves any wear on the rope. Reducing the friction at the lower-off means you have to increase it by the same amount in the belay device.
Hmm, doubt it saves any wear on the rope. Reducing the friction at the lower-off means you have to increase it by the same amount in the belay device.
10
In reply to GridNorth:
"but I'm not sure that I want less friction in the system when I am in a position where I might fall"
If you are falling you want the least amount of friction in the system possible.
If you have a lot of friction your "effective fall factor" is reduced. Effective fall factor is the relationship between the climbers fall and the actual amount of rope that can strech, this is altered by the degree of friction in the system. So the less friction from gear and the rock the more the rope between the climber and the belayer can strech rreducing the impact forces on the climber and the procection.
Hope I interpreted what you wrote correctly and this helps.
Cheers Matt
"but I'm not sure that I want less friction in the system when I am in a position where I might fall"
If you are falling you want the least amount of friction in the system possible.
If you have a lot of friction your "effective fall factor" is reduced. Effective fall factor is the relationship between the climbers fall and the actual amount of rope that can strech, this is altered by the degree of friction in the system. So the less friction from gear and the rock the more the rope between the climber and the belayer can strech rreducing the impact forces on the climber and the procection.
Hope I interpreted what you wrote correctly and this helps.
Cheers Matt
2
1
In reply to jimtitt:
Hah! I hadn't thought of it like that. Thank you, that's saved me the price of another Revolver karabiner.
Al
Hah! I hadn't thought of it like that. Thank you, that's saved me the price of another Revolver karabiner.
Al
In reply to jimtitt:
Really? I would've thought it would reduce wear. The rope will slide along the top draw, so reducing that sliding friction reduces wear.
There isn't much sliding at the belay plate and the change in friction is probably not a huge percentage increase.
Happy to be corrected.
Really? I would've thought it would reduce wear. The rope will slide along the top draw, so reducing that sliding friction reduces wear.
There isn't much sliding at the belay plate and the change in friction is probably not a huge percentage increase.
Happy to be corrected.
Post edited at 21:21
In reply to GridNorth:
I'd be v careful about using one on the first draw if your heavier than your belayer. When a friend was working Right Hand Man he put a revolver on the v high first bolt cos of the dogleg in the rope. He fell a couple of clips higher. He came down, I shot up, we met, like conkers, somewhere around the revolver!
I'd be v careful about using one on the first draw if your heavier than your belayer. When a friend was working Right Hand Man he put a revolver on the v high first bolt cos of the dogleg in the rope. He fell a couple of clips higher. He came down, I shot up, we met, like conkers, somewhere around the revolver!
In reply to tk421:
I'm with Jim on this. I would think that there is, as near as damn it, an equal amount of friction/sliding at the belay plate/krab as there is at the lower off point, I just hadn't thought about it in that way.
Al
I'm with Jim on this. I would think that there is, as near as damn it, an equal amount of friction/sliding at the belay plate/krab as there is at the lower off point, I just hadn't thought about it in that way.
Al
In reply to tk421:
Since a certain amount of friction is needed to arrest the climber adding a revolver would seem to shift the friction to another part of the system. It must or the climber couldn't be held.
Since a certain amount of friction is needed to arrest the climber adding a revolver would seem to shift the friction to another part of the system. It must or the climber couldn't be held.
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:
Yep, definitely.
However, the friction at the top draw will be relatively low. If you're working a route, you can pull the rope (that goes to the belayer) down.
The friction at the belay plate will be relatively large. Lock off a belay plate and it's more or less that... locked off.
Both cases could be simplified down to a capstan equation, with the belay plate being two of them, while the top draw is one.
Yep, definitely.
However, the friction at the top draw will be relatively low. If you're working a route, you can pull the rope (that goes to the belayer) down.
The friction at the belay plate will be relatively large. Lock off a belay plate and it's more or less that... locked off.
Both cases could be simplified down to a capstan equation, with the belay plate being two of them, while the top draw is one.
In reply to GridNorth:
" I've also see people using them on the first bolt for similar reasons "
I usually try to remove the qd from the first bolt once I'm attached to the second, provided it's not too much of a faff.
"but I'm not sure that I want less friction in the system when I am in a position where I might fall"
I do. I fall off a lot and don't much like being slammed into the rock (unless, of course, the alternative is to deck out).
" I've also see people using them on the first bolt for similar reasons "
I usually try to remove the qd from the first bolt once I'm attached to the second, provided it's not too much of a faff.
"but I'm not sure that I want less friction in the system when I am in a position where I might fall"
I do. I fall off a lot and don't much like being slammed into the rock (unless, of course, the alternative is to deck out).
In reply to tk421:
We aren´t talking about belay plates being locked off or even the top draw, the OP wrote about lowering :- "lowering the first person/s on a sports route to save wear and tear on both the lower off and my rope." and I wrote about lower-offs as well "Reducing the friction at the lower-off means you have to increase it by the same amount in the belay device."
> Yep, definitely.
> However, the friction at the top draw will be relatively low. If you're working a route, you can pull the rope (that goes to the belayer) down.
> The friction at the belay plate will be relatively large. Lock off a belay plate and it's more or less that... locked off.
> Both cases could be simplified down to a capstan equation, with the belay plate being two of them, while the top draw is one.
We aren´t talking about belay plates being locked off or even the top draw, the OP wrote about lowering :- "lowering the first person/s on a sports route to save wear and tear on both the lower off and my rope." and I wrote about lower-offs as well "Reducing the friction at the lower-off means you have to increase it by the same amount in the belay device."
In reply to jimtitt:
Ah yes. Thanks. I was thinking more about when a fall occurs.
Still feels like the reduction in wear at a lower off using a revolver since there'd be close to 0 sliding would be greater than the increase in wear due to more friction at the already sliding belay plate.
Ah yes. Thanks. I was thinking more about when a fall occurs.
Still feels like the reduction in wear at a lower off using a revolver since there'd be close to 0 sliding would be greater than the increase in wear due to more friction at the already sliding belay plate.
In reply to Willi Crater: And Gridnorth.
Yes a revolver puts less friction in the system which gives a softer catch which also helps to stop you slamming against the rock as long as your high enough not to deck out.
I also sometimes remove the 1st QD when safely clipped on the 2nd but use revolvers higher especially under sharp roofs or on a bolt out of line which I assess before starting the route where ever possible.
AL, Gridnorth As for using a revolver on the Lower off for top roping my partner, I think is a good idea, so maybe I should buy another as the extra weight is not a problem that much as I use thinner lighter ropes.
keith s
Yes a revolver puts less friction in the system which gives a softer catch which also helps to stop you slamming against the rock as long as your high enough not to deck out.
I also sometimes remove the 1st QD when safely clipped on the 2nd but use revolvers higher especially under sharp roofs or on a bolt out of line which I assess before starting the route where ever possible.
AL, Gridnorth As for using a revolver on the Lower off for top roping my partner, I think is a good idea, so maybe I should buy another as the extra weight is not a problem that much as I use thinner lighter ropes.
keith s
In reply to GridNorth:
I've gone full circle on this after only recently adopting the use of a Revolver on sports routes. In the context of my original post I agree with Jim, I can see no tangible benefit.
Al
I've gone full circle on this after only recently adopting the use of a Revolver on sports routes. In the context of my original post I agree with Jim, I can see no tangible benefit.
Al
In reply to GridNorth:
There´s another Point for fans of Revolvers to note, while the reduction in friction for small angular changes such as a wandering route is worthwhile the actual reduction for a 180° rope bend with the full weight of a climber is suprisingly small, about 8% less than over a 10mm dia krab and the friction over a 12mm HMS is about the same anyway. I´ve measured this quite a bit in the context of hauling systems, the higher the load and thicker the rope the less benefit you get which is to be expected considering how rope friction works.
> I've gone full circle on this after only recently adopting the use of a Revolver on sports routes. In the context of my original post I agree with Jim, I can see no tangible benefit.
> Al
There´s another Point for fans of Revolvers to note, while the reduction in friction for small angular changes such as a wandering route is worthwhile the actual reduction for a 180° rope bend with the full weight of a climber is suprisingly small, about 8% less than over a 10mm dia krab and the friction over a 12mm HMS is about the same anyway. I´ve measured this quite a bit in the context of hauling systems, the higher the load and thicker the rope the less benefit you get which is to be expected considering how rope friction works.
1
In reply to jimtitt:
Fascinating. I along with many others really appreciate your posts on such matters.
My impression is that revolvers are really useful when there is a runner some way off to the side (usually trad routes for obvious reasons). Have you done any testing on say a 60 degree angle with an 8.5 mm rope?
Fascinating. I along with many others really appreciate your posts on such matters.
My impression is that revolvers are really useful when there is a runner some way off to the side (usually trad routes for obvious reasons). Have you done any testing on say a 60 degree angle with an 8.5 mm rope?
In reply to GridNorth:
I think where having a revolver or two at the lower off - or the draw below a crux on lead - helps is when you're working a route and often hauling yourself back up a few moves. It (feels like it) reduces the friction so presumably helps reduce the albeit minimal wear on the rope. That's the situation where I use mine most, other than for changes in angle.
I think where having a revolver or two at the lower off - or the draw below a crux on lead - helps is when you're working a route and often hauling yourself back up a few moves. It (feels like it) reduces the friction so presumably helps reduce the albeit minimal wear on the rope. That's the situation where I use mine most, other than for changes in angle.
In reply to Fraser:
That seems like the area where most benefit could be gained
> I think where having a revolver or two at the lower off - or the draw below a crux on lead - helps is when you're working a route and often hauling yourself back up a few moves. It (feels like it) reduces the friction so presumably helps reduce the albeit minimal wear on the rope.
That seems like the area where most benefit could be gained
In reply to jimtitt:
I often use a revolver quickdraw for lowering off at the wall, leaving it on the anchor until I've finished on that line and adjacent ones. I hadn't thought about the increased friction at the belay plate but the revolver definitely reduces kinking massively. Does that not suggest reduced wear? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm curious as my own experience suggests that ropes definitely feel less hammered after using the revolver for frequent lowering.
> Hmm, doubt it saves any wear on the rope. Reducing the friction at the lower-off means you have to increase it by the same amount in the belay device.
I often use a revolver quickdraw for lowering off at the wall, leaving it on the anchor until I've finished on that line and adjacent ones. I hadn't thought about the increased friction at the belay plate but the revolver definitely reduces kinking massively. Does that not suggest reduced wear? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm curious as my own experience suggests that ropes definitely feel less hammered after using the revolver for frequent lowering.
In reply to ericinbristol:
2kg weight (to represent some rope hanging down and a bit of drag) 8.5mm rope. Percentage of original load needed to pull the rope through.
30° DMM Revolver 116% WC Wild Wire 119% Petzl Attache 121%
60° 134%/146%/142%
90° 154%/167%/166%
120° 167%/186%/182%
150° 177%/194%/189%
180° 178%/202%/198%
Hauling or with a climbers weight and using a thicker rope the advantage gets less, partly because of the stiffness of the rope plays a larger role and partly because the rope itself flattens and contacts the body of the karabiner, there was a post about this on one of the US forums from a guy who used them for top roping and suffered a lot of wear on the back of the karabiner due to this.
> Fascinating. I along with many others really appreciate your posts on such matters.
> My impression is that revolvers are really useful when there is a runner some way off to the side (usually trad routes for obvious reasons). Have you done any testing on say a 60 degree angle with an 8.5 mm rope?
2kg weight (to represent some rope hanging down and a bit of drag) 8.5mm rope. Percentage of original load needed to pull the rope through.
30° DMM Revolver 116% WC Wild Wire 119% Petzl Attache 121%
60° 134%/146%/142%
90° 154%/167%/166%
120° 167%/186%/182%
150° 177%/194%/189%
180° 178%/202%/198%
Hauling or with a climbers weight and using a thicker rope the advantage gets less, partly because of the stiffness of the rope plays a larger role and partly because the rope itself flattens and contacts the body of the karabiner, there was a post about this on one of the US forums from a guy who used them for top roping and suffered a lot of wear on the back of the karabiner due to this.
In reply to jimtitt:
Fantastic, thanks very much. So, not nearly as much as I thought! I can't imagine DMM would want people to know that the gains are so marginal.
Fantastic, thanks very much. So, not nearly as much as I thought! I can't imagine DMM would want people to know that the gains are so marginal.
1
In reply to ericinbristol:
Actually the gains are quite considerable cosidering the low weight penalty and the small size. Even if you use a relatively normal pulley you don´t really get that much efficiency gain and 10% isn´t to be knocked if you need to use two or three in a wandering route as suddenly you are looking at a considerable reduction in drag. Keeping the rope as straight as possible is best though!
Actually the gains are quite considerable cosidering the low weight penalty and the small size. Even if you use a relatively normal pulley you don´t really get that much efficiency gain and 10% isn´t to be knocked if you need to use two or three in a wandering route as suddenly you are looking at a considerable reduction in drag. Keeping the rope as straight as possible is best though!
In reply to jimtitt:
Jim, what are the numbers for 80kg (climber); or 400kg (a falling climber) for example.
Thanks.
Jim, what are the numbers for 80kg (climber); or 400kg (a falling climber) for example.
Thanks.
In reply to David Coley:
Don´t know, I only tested a climbers weight using a thicker rope which gives different numbers as I was looking at hauling, never tried it with a 8,5mm rope. It was no replacement for a proper pulley so I stopped testing it!
The small diameter of the sheave means it can never be that good, something like a CT Roll n Lock manages something like 78% efficiency where the Revolver is on 56%.
> Jim, what are the numbers for 80kg (climber); or 400kg (a falling climber) for example.
> Thanks.
Don´t know, I only tested a climbers weight using a thicker rope which gives different numbers as I was looking at hauling, never tried it with a 8,5mm rope. It was no replacement for a proper pulley so I stopped testing it!
The small diameter of the sheave means it can never be that good, something like a CT Roll n Lock manages something like 78% efficiency where the Revolver is on 56%.
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