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Lead belay with Gri-gri vs ATC or Bug

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 forrestpock 24 Nov 2015
Hello,
I am looking for views form climbers and instructors about using Petzl Gri-gri for lead belaying.
Its highlighted recently that Gri-gri is a safer device than any ATC friction type devises and should be used more often to avoid serious accidents due to human error and distraction.

Do you think that good old Stich Plate kind of devises are getting outdated and not safe enough to belay at climbing centers with out higher risks of an accident, usually involving experienced climbers?

Remember:
Its is about general use of gri-gri for Lead belaying at artificial climbing walls.

7
 Phil Anderson 24 Nov 2015
In reply to forrestpock:

> Hello,

> I am looking for views form climbers and instructors about using Petzl Gri-gri for lead belaying.

> Its highlighted recently that Gri-gri is a safer device than any ATC friction type devises and should be used more often to avoid serious accidents due to human error and distraction.

> Do you think that good old Stich Plate kind of devises are getting outdated and not safe enough to belay at climbing centers with out higher risks of an accident, usually involving experienced climbers?

> Remember:

> Its is about general use of gri-gri for Lead belaying at artificial climbing walls.

Where was it highlighted that a gri-gri is safer? What do you mean by "usually involving experienced climbers"? Do you mean that experienced climbers have more accidents?
 Andypeak 24 Nov 2015
In reply to forrestpock:

In my experience gri gris promote sloppy techniques. I regularly see people letting go of the dead rope and paying incorrectly
2
 Jubjab 24 Nov 2015
In reply to forrestpock:

Lead belaying in climbing gyms should definitely be done with GriGris and not ATC type devices. In that setting, the only benefit of an ATC is that it is cheaper. The argument that GriGri's "promote sloppy techniques" is just silly. I see a lot of sloppy belaying with ATC's as well, and the result of a sudden fall is much more severe if the belayer uses an ATC.
14
 Neil Williams 24 Nov 2015
In reply to andy.smythe:
Gri-gris are safe if used correctly. So are ATCs.

The real gain of a Gri-gri is probably in being able to catch a long fall, but you don't get long falls in climbing walls. It also provides a backup against inattention, I suppose, but cannot be guaranteed to catch in those circumstances.

Neil
Post edited at 12:36
 winhill 24 Nov 2015
In reply to forrestpock:

It would better framed as a question about assisted braking devices rather than one specific type, as the grigri is now not recommended for competitions climbing due to the possibility of short roping.
OP forrestpock 24 Nov 2015
In reply to Clinger:
It is just theoretical, the main subject is lead belaying with gri gri! I have mentioned experienced climbers because if novice climber would drop someone you would blame inexperience, not what device they used as safest option.
 Neil Williams 24 Nov 2015
In reply to forrestpock:
A novice is very likely to get confused using a Gri-gri, primarily when lowering. The only novice use I think they are suitable for is bell-ringing, ironically this does not follow Petzl's instructions.
Post edited at 12:49
2
 GridNorth 24 Nov 2015
In reply to forrestpock:

With single ropes I prefer to be belayed with an auto assist device and even more so indoors. There are a number of reasons for this.

1. It offers a second chance if the belayer makes a mistake. (I know they are not rated as auto locking but as anyone who uses one knows to all intents and purposes they lock even if you let go. I wouldn't swear to it but I seem to recall that the first GriGri's were advertised as auto locking probably until their legal people advised against it.)

2. With skinny single ropes some "standard" devices do not give enough friction IMO.

3. It's easy for a belayer to be distracted at a climbing wall.

4. Indoors routes can be quite short so there may be less friction in the system than you would normally get outside.

I use a Mammut Smart and prefer it to a GriGri and I would not be surprised if at some stage climbing walls insist upon the use of assisted braking devices. IMO there would be far more sense in that than banning bowlines for example.

Al

In reply to forrestpock:

> ... due to human error and distraction.

Well there's your problem. As others have said, it's the user not the device. If a pair are climbing together and they don't trust each other to catch a fall then you shouldn't be climbing. I know you're talking about artificial walls, but what happens when they get distracted and forget to tie in properly, or put their harness on wrong, or don't lock biners where they should? You've got bigger problems than choosing a belay device.
 Phil Anderson 24 Nov 2015
In reply to forrestpock:
I see, thanks for explaining.

I think the difference in safety between the two when used by competent, experienced climbers is negligible.

I can certainly imagine scenarios where a gri-gri would save the day (belayer becoming unconscious for example) but none that are likely enough to make a significant difference to the stats.

If I was looking for a way to improve safety at walls, I'd start with better education for belayers coupled with experienced and competent climbing wall staff who actively check the climbers around them.
Post edited at 13:48
 JoshOvki 24 Nov 2015
In reply to Jubjab:

Wouldn't it be safer to allow the lead belayer to belay with what they are comfortable with rather than specifying you must use device a and not device b? Not all climbers know how to use a Gri-Gri safely (most people I see using a Gri-Gri don't use it as per the instructions).
 andrewmc 24 Nov 2015
In reply to forrestpock:

Much as I like and almost exclusively use either a grigri or a MegaJul, if your belayer is so useless they can't hold a fall indoors with a normal device then they almost certainly won't keep you off the floor if you blow the second (or third) clip.

I keep a Bug for teaching.
 AlanLittle 24 Nov 2015
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Gri-gris are safe if used correctly. So are ATCs.

> The real gain of a Gri-gri is probably in being able to catch a long fall, but you don't get long falls in climbing walls.

I have my doubts about some of the larger ATC type devices with modern skinny, slippery ropes and high fall factors. But, as you say, not a consideration indoors.

 steveb2006 24 Nov 2015
In reply to forrestpock:

Personally I dislike being belayed by someone using a gri-gri - they inevitable find it very hard to pay the rope out quickly when trying to get a 'quick clip' And likewise when I am belaying - so I now always use a (much cheaper) static device ATC or similar. They are fine for top roping (i.e you are just taking in) - As said above encourages sloppy technique too as people let go of the dead end.
2
 Rick Graham 24 Nov 2015
In reply to AlanLittle:

> I have my doubts about some of the larger ATC type devices with modern skinny, slippery ropes and high fall factors. But, as you say, not a consideration indoors.

Falls indoors always feel harsher to me.

Outdoors, the last big lobs I held were on a skinny ( listed as 8.5 but feels thinner ) half, the other rope not being weighted. About 15m and about fall factor 0.6. The ATC XP held surprisingly well (better than my expectations of some slippage ).

Jim Titt, who has tested a lot of devices, as you know, has pretty firm views on what he likes and trusts to use.
 petellis 24 Nov 2015
In reply to andy.smythe:

> In my experience gri gris promote sloppy techniques. I regularly see people letting go of the dead rope and paying incorrectly

Even the instructors in my local wall don't use the gri-gri the recommended petzl way.... on the other hand they don't seem to drop anybody. Paying attention is probably the key thing.

I prefer the gri gri - its faster and as long as I hold it right I feel like it backs up and mistakes I make, but in the past I've held a big whipper with an ATC when I wasn't looking at the climber.
 Neil Williams 24 Nov 2015
In reply to petellis:

I do wonder when Petzl will officially recommend the "bell ringing" method of peer belaying using the Grigri. It's not as if just about every wall in the country isn't doing it without incident!
 Jenny C 24 Nov 2015
In reply to forrestpock: Not sure where you get the idea that GriGris are safer than friction plates - I know of more than one case where experienced belayers have dropped the climber to the deck though incorrect operation of a GriGri.

Personally I hate GriGris and find paying out slack for a lead climber both in compliance to Petzl's operating instructions AND smoothly enough to satisfy a climber pretty much impossible. (perhaps I need more practice!) urrently my belay device of choice is a Mammut Smart which offers assisted braking without the clumsy unnatural complication of physical brake/leaver.

That said I certainly don't think that conventional friction devices are outdated. Lighter, cheaper, simpler to operate, suitable for double ropes, nothing to fail/jam on the device it self and much less chance of it clogging with ice/grit. Yes assisted devices have their place but if used properly there are plenty of situations where a friction device wins hands down.

Having worked at a wall teaching on friction devices ensures development of good robust technique. Once that is developed by all means look at assisted devices, but I have seen far too many climbers who have learnt to belay on a GriGri and have appalling sloppy technique never locking off the live end of the rope.
 Oceanrower 24 Nov 2015
In reply to forrestpock:
> Hello,

> I am looking for views form climbers and instructors about using Petzl Gri-gri for lead belaying.

> Its highlighted recently that Gri-gri is a safer device than any ATC friction type devises and should be used more often to avoid serious accidents due to human error and distraction.

Could you please point out where this has been highlighted. Do you have any verifiable source or are you doing what we in the trade call "making it up"

> Do you think that good old Stich Plate kind of devises are getting outdated and not safe enough to belay at climbing centers with out higher risks of an accident, usually involving experienced climbers?

No. I think there is a place for assisted braking devices and I often use one myself. For lead belaying they are, IMHO, a pain to pay out quickly and smoothly. ATC devices (note the 'c', not an 's') are safe for ALL climbers, whether experienced or not, assuming a modicum of attention is being paid by the belayer.

> Remember:

> Its is about general use of gri-gri for Lead belaying at artificial climbing walls.

And, for general use lead belaying, an ATC type (other friction devices are available) is simpler, cheaper, smoother and lighter.

For top rope belaying I don't mind either and for self belaying then, obviously, an assisted device wins.
Post edited at 19:00
 AJM 24 Nov 2015
In reply to forrestpock:

I don't really have much to add to this except to say that if you can't feed out slack through a grigri quickly enough for a lead climber that isn't a fault of the grigri - its certainly possible...
 Martin Hore 24 Nov 2015
In reply to AJM:

> I don't really have much to add to this except to say that if you can't feed out slack through a grigri quickly enough for a lead climber that isn't a fault of the grigri - its certainly possible...

Asking here, not criticising. Is it possible to pay out rope fast to the leader while still following Petzl's instructions? (ie without "thumbing" the GriGri).

Martin

 AlanLittle 24 Nov 2015
In reply to Martin Hore:

I'm not clear how "thumbing" is contrary to Petzl's instructions, given that it's the second thing they mention on the how-to page

http://www.petzl.com/en/Sport/Belaying-with-the-GRIGRI?ProductName=GRIGRI-2...
 Andy Long 24 Nov 2015
In reply to Clinger:

>

> If I was looking for a way to improve safety at walls, I'd start with better education for belayers coupled with experienced and competent climbing wall staff who actively check the climbers around them.

I suppose so. After all, climbing walls are such appallingly dangerous places.
 AJM 24 Nov 2015
In reply to Martin Hore:

I do it pretty similarly to the method shown in the petzl howto linked a post or so up.

With a fairly slick rope you can just feed it to and fro though as long as you anticipate.

If you're not paying attention and the leader yanks the rope and jams the grigri you're automatically on the back foot. Anticipation is a very underrated part of being a decent sport belayer.
 mark s 24 Nov 2015
In reply to forrestpock:

i will not use a gri gri
i am used to an ATC and its perfect,ive never dropped anyone and i know instinctively what to do when someone falls.using a gri gri would need a different technique
1
 AlanLittle 24 Nov 2015
In reply to Martin Hore:

Another point regarding "thumbing" (as recommended by Petzl ) is that it's usually only needed with fuzzy, crappy wall ropes. I rarely find I need to do it with my good rope outdoors.
 Tyler 24 Nov 2015
In reply to:

I can think of several occasions where a Gri Gri has saved me from hitting the deck when a conventional device almost certainly wouldn't. I also had a near miss with a Gri Gri but, equally, that would have been worse with a passive device
In reply to AJM:

> I do it pretty similarly to the method shown in the petzl howto linked a post or so up.

> With a fairly slick rope you can just feed it to and fro though as long as you anticipate.

> If you're not paying attention and the leader yanks the rope and jams the grigri you're automatically on the back foot. Anticipation is a very underrated part of being a decent sport belayer.

This^^^
The ropes I use are 10mm+, but I do change them regularly so they don't get furred up. I never have difficulty feeding through normally, just like an atc. I never thumb the device, and if a leader yanks for a grip clip, I walk in towards the wall or crag.
In all the years I've used grigris, I've held hundreds of big and small falls, and in every case, the device has auto locked. I must just be lucky.
 Å ljiva 24 Nov 2015
In reply to Tyler:
just got back from the U.S. and the climbing wall insisted on you using their gri gri (on top rope, that's all there was). I'm okay with them but not as comfortable as with an ATC, my partner had never used one. No one bothered to belay test us. I felt the wall forced us into a riskier set up than our own, but thems the rules. That, combined with their horrid route setting using coloured tape on random holds rather than a matching set of holds, stopped me going back.
Removed User 24 Nov 2015
In reply to forrestpock:

I think in time devices like the Mega Jul will replace standard ATCs. There's almost no reason not to use one, it's a free backup that you shouldn't need but at no extra weight or faff may as well have. Grigris are a pain in the ass to use flawlessly, even for people who use them regularly. They do lock at inopportune times and if you're using them correctly (thumb to keep the cam down while you give rope) still much more difficult to teach someone than it is to teach them a MJ.
 seanhendo123 24 Nov 2015
In reply to forrestpock:

I predominantly use an atc type device but will use a gri gri if a partner is working a route as once the cam is engaged its easier to hold them while they are resting/working out sequence etc. For giving slack (particularly indoors where ground is always level etc) I don't see any difference as it's mostly dynamic by stepping in. Finally for catching falls the belayers reaction should be exactly the same for either atc or gri gri, I.e lock down the brake end of the rope, so again no difference. Both device's are safe as long as used properly
Andy Gamisou 25 Nov 2015
In reply to andy.smythe:

> and paying incorrectly

Let's not get back into thieving and kerfuffles again. Anyway, this guy has the low-down on this - vimeo.com/76330785
Andy Gamisou 25 Nov 2015
In reply to Tyler:

> I can think of several occasions where a Gri Gri has saved me from hitting the deck when a conventional device almost certainly wouldn't. I also had a near miss with a Gri Gri but, equally, that would have been worse with a passive device

Interesting - care to elaborate (and I don't mean that in an 'arsey' way - genuinely interested). As a counter point, only been dropped once. At an indoor centre in the states where they insisted belayer uses a gri gri.
 Mark Kemball 25 Nov 2015
In reply to forrestpock:

Have you considered the "Click- Up"? http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=4710 Seems to be the best of both worlds. When my son is belaying me on trad, we use the "Alpine - Up" - the double rope version.
 Andy Long 25 Nov 2015
In reply to Mark Kemball:

I have an Alpine Up which I use very infrequently and then only in the "normal" non-lock mode. I bought it a couple of years ago because I was impressed by its do-all capabilities but found that my 8.5mm ropes were too big for easy use. My new skinnies are much better and I really should spend some time getting fluent with it. I find the click-up mode rather awkward but again that may be lack of practice. The best feature is its auto-locking abseil mode, so you don't have to faff around with prussicks.

It is a big bugger though.
 AlanLittle 25 Nov 2015
In reply to Mark Kemball:

Haven't used the double rope version, but the single seems to be a bugger for locking up when trying to feed quickly, and fiddly to unlock. Far more so than a grigri.

I have a couple of regular clibming partners who have them; they're experienced climbers and experienced with the device, and yet both manage to short rope me brutally on a regular basis.
Andy Gamisou 25 Nov 2015
In reply to AlanLittle:

> and yet both manage to short rope me brutally on a regular basis.

Not sure your sexual proclivities are anyone's business but your own.

 timjones 25 Nov 2015
In reply to Neil Williams:

> I do wonder when Petzl will officially recommend the "bell ringing" method of peer belaying using the Grigri. It's not as if just about every wall in the country isn't doing it without incident!

How many other manufacturers recommend using "bell ringing" with their devices?

It's not really the sort of technique that I would expect to see recommended by a manufacturer.

I'm also interested in the suggestion that just about every wall in the country is using it. I'd struggle to name one wall where I've seen it used.
 Howard J 25 Nov 2015
In reply to Šljiva:

> just got back from the U.S. and the climbing wall insisted on you using their gri gri (on top rope, that's all there was).

I wonder where that leaves the wall in terms of liability if you have an accident because you've been obliged to use unfamiliar equipment. I've used standard friction devices since I first bought a Sticht plate in 1970s and I've held numerous falls with them. I've never used a gri-gri in my life and wouldn't know where to start. How is that safer?
 Neil Williams 25 Nov 2015
In reply to timjones:

Big Rock use it. I have seen it in a number of places (or the similar approach of attaching to a ground anchor with one pulling down, two out and the instructor on the end).
 Å ljiva 25 Nov 2015
In reply to Howard J:
Couldnt agree more. Lots of electronic forms to fill in but non of the standard questions you get here about knowing what you're doing/no checks to make sure you do. Some pretty dangerous rope set ups too, leading to some big swings if you fell, my partner landed into the wall with a right thwack at one point. This was a small midtown NY place, rather than one of the big facilities but even so.....fortunately, they are big into Ninja Warrior training type gyms at the moment, which was enough to keep me amused the rest of the trip when not working and probably got me back fitter than I went out
Andy Gamisou 25 Nov 2015
In reply to timjones:

> How many other manufacturers recommend using "bell ringing" with their devices?

Camp?
Andy Gamisou 25 Nov 2015
In reply to Howard J:

> I wonder where that leaves the wall in terms of liability if you have an accident because you've been obliged to use unfamiliar equipment. I've used standard friction devices since I first bought a Sticht plate in 1970s and I've held numerous falls with them. I've never used a gri-gri in my life and wouldn't know where to start. How is that safer?

Quite. It isn't. This is precisely how and why my belayer dropped me (as referred to in a post above) when climbing at a US wall.
 Neil Williams 25 Nov 2015
In reply to Willi Crater:

Given how horribly litigious the US is, I'm surprised you weren't made to take their training and test first to ensure you could use their equipment correctly.

I think Australia is similar. They even have the utterly ridiculous "clip and tie" method of attaching to the harness. Just tie your Fig 8 or bowline correctly and check each others' - there is no need whatsoever for that kind of double-doing.
 Mark Kemball 25 Nov 2015
In reply to Andy Long:

Well, I've not used the Alpine Up myself, but feel much happier leading trad (particularly multi-pitch) when my son is belaying me with that rather than an ATC (or similar). The lad is fairly light-weight, so I make sure he's well tied down. We climb on a pair of skinnies, I usually use a buggette.
 Andy Long 26 Nov 2015
In reply to Mark Kemball:

> Well, I've not used the Alpine Up myself, but feel much happier leading trad (particularly multi-pitch) when my son is belaying me with that rather than an ATC (or similar).

Yes, I can well see it.

I don't personally find locking belay devices useful. I don't do sport and only use a single rope on walls. Since holding some monster falls in the days of waist belays I've never been worried on that score either.

 icnoble 26 Nov 2015
In reply to forrestpock: my wife and also use the click up and it is very good particularly with skinny ropes.

 ChrisNaylor 26 Nov 2015
In reply to forrestpock:

I've had a few comments recently about my gri gri 2 being second rate to the original, I've never used the original however surely the updated one is an improved version? I've never understood how people can let go of the dead end as the gri gri is used in the same manner as a belay plate and surely the first thing you learn is that you don't let go of the dead end!!
 stp 30 Nov 2015
In reply to ChrisNaylor:

I've used both types. The Grigri 2 is smaller, lighter and designed for thinner ropes. The Grigri 1 is arguably better because its bigger in the hand. I also find the rope can occasionally slip out the side of the 2 when locking, a problem I never had with the 1. I only use a 2 these days with the thinner ropes that are now common. Both are great in my opinion and I certainly would never want to go back to a non-autolocking device.
 stp 30 Nov 2015
In reply to forrestpock:

Very interesting post. I agree and can't see how a non-autolocking device can possibly be as safe as an autolocking one. Some people I climb with still won't use grigris and very occasionally I get dropped a bit more than I should. This never happens with people using grigris, its just much harder to mess up and drop someone with them.

Last year a friend dislodged a massive bit of rock at Portland and I had to literally dive out of the way to avoid certain death. The fact I had a grigri meant that he was still belayed even though I might have fully let go.

The risk however I think is if the people learning with grigris then go on to use a sticht plate later. It's possible they may not be so tuned into holding the rope tightly if they've only ever used a grigri.

However I think for single rope climbing I think autolocking devices are the way to go because they make a potentially dangerous activity a little bit safer. Sticht plate type of devices are still needed for double ropes though, so not outdated yet.
 Neil Williams 30 Nov 2015
In reply to stp:
> Very interesting post. I agree and can't see how a non-autolocking device can possibly be as safe as an autolocking one. Some people I climb with still won't use grigris and very occasionally I get dropped a bit more than I should.

If the number of times I had been actually dropped by a belayer due to poor technique (as opposed to a fall they could not reasonably catch, e.g. a missed 2nd bolt with slack out) exceeded 0 for any given belayer, I wouldn't be climbing with them, I suspect. Fortunately that number equals 0.

> This never happens with people using grigris, its just much harder to mess up and drop someone with them.

Until a novice using one tries to lower, which is the time it's really easy to mess up with a Grigri. Doesn't apply to the other devices, though; the Mammut Smart is my favourite but some of the others are equally good.
Post edited at 22:56
 Scott K 01 Dec 2015
In reply to Neil Williams:

I think he means dropped further than with a grigri, as in a soft catch. I would rather a soft catch and drop further than slam into the wall though-as long as i am up high enough!
 Neil Williams 01 Dec 2015
In reply to Scott K:

Being heavy I get a soft catch anyway (unless a ground anchor is being used)
 Mr. Lee 01 Dec 2015
In reply to forrestpock:

I personally feel safer when being belayed by someone who regularly uses an ATC. I find it better encourages constant correction of rope slack. Ie if I put a bit of gear in at full reach to reduce the likelihood of a bad landing I want to see a belayer taking the slack in and then letting it out again as I climb up to the gear. I see this happening less often for whatever reason when being belayed with a Grigri. It could also relate to slack with indoor climbing being less critical verses outdoor trad and that maybe a little retraining is needed sometimes.
 silhouette 01 Dec 2015
In reply to AJM:

> I don't really have much to add to this except to say that if you can't feed out slack through a grigri quickly enough for a lead climber that isn't a fault of the grigri - its certainly possible...

Well said.
 Leearma 01 Dec 2015
Lots of text on this opening post and many different opinions in response.

Firstly a sweeping statement like "recently highlighted that the GriGri is a safer device..." you'll really have to declare your source so it can be shared and considered in responses.

GriGri's and other belay devices are not dangerous. I can put one on the floor in front of you and someone will steal it before it does you any harm.

However, connect it into a system and you now have an issue of compatibility. Is it compatible with the rope, the user and the climbing team?

In short there are many devices (GriGri style and traditional plates and some weird things) and many differing ropes (thick, thin, flexible and not so, grippy and slippy) so if you match these two elements of the system incorrectly you are setting yourself up for problems. And increase the need for greater belayer attention.

The belayer, the key element in the safety chain, holding the power to give you safe flight or scrape you off the floor and bag you. They come in more variations than we car to imagine, some brilliant, some not so, some with good habits and some you have to roll out of bed in the afternoon, dress them and get them to the wall, to go through the motion of belaying. There are even good looking ones or ones that buy the cake when you have burnt out and can't untie the rope. By far this is your greatest investment, choose well.

As you will have read, some people like the GriGri for the wall and are very happy to use it, some think it is the work of the devil and can't get on with. As a team (you and belayer), you need to decide what works best for you, giving you the confidence to push on when it gets hard and in my experience the simplest solution is the best.

If you are asking an advice based question like this then I would say that you don't buy a GriGri but spend the money having a beer or three and building the trust between your partner, keeping solutions simply. You will get to a point where you will question this again, and based on your own experience, answer that question.

I use a GriGri matched to a nice rope to clip bolts, on plastic or outside. I use a guide style plate on everything else. Introducing a novice to belaying I would not use a GriGri as I am investing my time so that they will come outdoors and I don't need to waste time introducing two devices and confusing the novice, they have enough to consider by not dropping me. And a final point here, there are people that I love to climb with, with a wealth of experience but due to the individuality I would not even shown them my GriGri.

I'll finish by referring to the system again and the fact that no belay device is dangerous, linked to a system and an individual operating that system, there is scope for the system to fail and I would suggest that the weak link is the belayer, not paying attention, not knowing the system or an element of how the system operates or otherwise distracted or communicating badly with the leader... and I'm sure that someone will now point out a case where equipment failure occurred, my point being is that there is a much greater proportion of human error cases than equipment failure...by far.

I've climbed for 30 years, I have used a number of systems and elements of but I have walked away from more potential partners...choose well.

 mwr72 01 Dec 2015
In reply to all:

Does anyone else remember the two options back in the day? Stitch plate or fig 8 for belaying?
In fact we often used the fig 8 with the bight in the carabiner instead of round the body of the device.

 Leearma 01 Dec 2015
In reply to mwr72:

Happy days! Still common in Europe
Andy Gamisou 02 Dec 2015
In reply to mwr72:

> Does anyone else remember the two options back in the day? Stitch plate or fig 8 for belaying?

Sticht plate? Figure of eight? Tha was spoilt youth! Shoulder belay the only option back in the day.
 marsbar 02 Dec 2015
In reply to forrestpock:

My opinion is that gri gris seem inherently safer, so people recommended them. However a normal belay device is not particularly unsafe unless used by a novice. Chances are indoors you won't be knocked unconscious by rock fall.

Personally I think people should learn to use whichever safely, and novices should have someone tailing the rope when they learn to belay.

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