UKC

Israel's recent military operations in Palestinian hospitals are a blatant violation of the Geneva Convention, and make you wonder how low the country can sink.

youtube.com/watch?v=vLNr4qdWxlk&

In reply to gd303uk:


I suspect they aren't. I have absolutely no idea of the context of that, or who was in the right or wrong, but something people disapprove of isn't automatically a 'war crime'. It's not exactly the Imperial Japanese Army bayonetting the patients, doctors and nurses, is it?

The Israelis get up to some reprehensible stuff in Palestine, but hyperbole in this case doesn't help matters.

In reply to Ridge:

http://tinyurl.com/q77f93m

Short version leave hospitals alone.

In reply to marsbar:


The longer version includes, for example,:

"Art. 19. The protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy. Protection may, however, cease only after due warning has been given, naming, in all appropriate cases, a reasonable time limit and after such warning has remained unheeded."

Who knows in this case what was going on?

In reply to gd303uk:

Showing video clips of this without context does your arguments no good. While I think Israel's actions generally are terrible, this doesn't back that up at all, as has been said who knows what the reasons were.

In reply to gd303uk:


The video clip is time-stamped so it would be helpful if you would say at what point (.i.e. how far in) the violations take place, and what your thinking is in considering them in this light.

Do you think it would be unacceptable for police or security forces in this country to enter a British hospital?
Do you know if that ever happens here in the UK?
If they police or security forces thought that someone in the hospital might be armed and dangerous, would you expect them not to take firearms themselves because it is a hospital? What does the Geneva convention have to say on that matter, and when might it apply or not apply?

In reply to Andy Morley:

Not to mention that they might be police not military, so very different laws.

In reply to JayPee630:

You can't dodge the Geneva Conventions unless domestic law applies. Otherwise you could relabel the British Army as "The British Police" and say Geneva Conventions don't apply when they are overseas.

Due to the domestic/international difference, UK police and Army in support of civil power within the UK could use pepper spray, tear gas or dumdum bullets that are banned when the Army is overseas.

In reply to JayPee630:


How can you tell which they are in this clip? Is there always a clear-cut distinction between police and military in Israel? How is this demarcation defined and managed?

In reply to Andy Morley:

That's exactly my point, without context and more info the clip is pretty worthless, and people using it to prove a political point actually just do their perspective damage.

In reply to JayPee630:


The OP is interesting though as an example of the kind of muddled thinking and knee-jerk reactions that are probably quite widespread. In a way, this could be seen as giving us some kind of insight into what went on in the UK and the USA in the 1930s when there was considerable support and admiration for Adolf Hitler and hostility towards Jews amongst the English-speaking world, and of course the well-known 'appeasement' phenomenon. Maybe that was a result of similarly muddled thinking?

As for hostility towards Jews then and now and the growing hostility towards Muslims, I am reaching the view that the underlying issues are far less black-and-white than the versions of history most of us work to, and current knee-jerk reactions in both directions suggest.

In reply to JayPee630:

Yes , sorry , I was reading Haaretz online and was interested in an article by Gideon Levy,
I should have got back to this thread sooner but have had a very busy week.
Here is a link to the article.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.687530


Graham

In reply to gd303uk:

if you can't open the Haaretz story you can the read the story here;
http://mondoweiss.net/2015/11/undercover-soldiers-hospital
and here;
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/12/palestinian-shot-dead-in-israe...

In reply to gd303uk:

Unfortunately, just another to add to the list of summary executions by Israeli forces.

It makes me wonder how so many in the conservative party can be "Friends of Israel", though sadly it's not just in the conservative party either.

It's about time we stopped dealing with them until they actually show some signs of wanting peace.

In reply to krikoman:


What do you actually mean by that statement?

In reply to Andy Morley:


I mean that we (the UK) and the Americans should stop trading with, and giving military aid to, Israel while they continue to "pretend" they want peace, while doing everything they possibly can to ensure that peace never happens.

Ideally the peace talks should be in open session so the whole world can see what the sticking points are and who later goes on to break the promises that were made during these negotiations.

In reply to krikoman:


If you wanted the UK and US governements to be consistent in this, there are an awful lot of other states that are as bad as or worse than Israel. If they implemented a policy of that kind, the English-speaking world would find itself in a 'cold-war' situation with perhaps up to half the rest of the world. Realistically, would that enhance the future prospects of world peace or take away from them?

In reply to Andy Morley:

Is israel the only fascist state we do deal with?
a country that says it wants peace and a two state solution but "mows the lawn" and illegally occupies Palestinian land on a regular basis.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/fascism-grips-israel/5397588

and with members of the Knesset like Ayelet Shaked calling for the genocide of Palestinians what kind of country has Israel become?
you can read her post here
https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israeli-lawmakers-call-ge...

just because there are other countries as bad as Israel doesn't mean we should not put pressure on them to change the way it behaves with Palestine.

In reply to gd303uk:


Do you think that cutting ties with a country, as krikoman suggested, is the most effective way of putting pressure on them?

In reply to Andy Morley:


If they rely on you to support their state, then what better pressure is there?

After all good old Bibi has been saying how much he'd like peace in the region for the last 50 years.

And yes there are other states that this would apply to, but we're talking about Israel, it doesn't mean it doesn't apply to the others too.

In reply to Andy Morley:

Read some of this woman's lovely quotes "Deputy Foreign Minister Tzipi Hotovely." and the tell me how much they want peace.

In reply to krikoman:


They rely mostly on the USA to support their state and because of the powerful Zionist lobby stateside, the sort of pressure you're talking about is the sort of pressure that realistically is not going to happen. So that makes this conversation rather an academic one.

In reply to Andy Morley:


Well aware of that thanks, that why I said us and America.


Isn't that what conversations are about?

In reply to krikoman:


That would rather depend on the particular conversation don't you think?

In reply to gd303uk:

if you can't open the Haaretz article to read Gideon levy , you can hear him talk here.
a very interesting talk.

youtube.com/watch?v=TNXhlL3-5Uw&