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In a new series on UKClimbing, we have teamed up with Plas-y-Brenin, the National Mountain Sports Centre, to cover a wide range of basic climbing techniques.. We will be explaining everything from putting on harnesses and tying figure of eights, to building belays and leading.Read more
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In reply to UKC Articles:
Come on people, where's the opinionated responses? By now someone should have said something about his nut placement technique. I'll start off - He didn't seat it hard enough. He had too many nuts on that snap gate. His sage was bent. What about horizontal placements? Or millstone boreholes? That placement would of lifted out, a nut key should be a last resort. The placement was too low to the ground.....
Come on people, where's the opinionated responses? By now someone should have said something about his nut placement technique. I'll start off - He didn't seat it hard enough. He had too many nuts on that snap gate. His sage was bent. What about horizontal placements? Or millstone boreholes? That placement would of lifted out, a nut key should be a last resort. The placement was too low to the ground.....
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In reply to ben.phillips:
Let's not discriminate against homosexual herbs please.
> .... His sage was bent.
Let's not discriminate against homosexual herbs please.
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In reply to UKC Articles:
Why is he wearing a cagoule when it's not even raining?
Why is he wearing a helmet when he's not even on a bike?
Why was there an ant in the video? Can you use an ant for protection? Is that safe?
Why is he wearing a cagoule when it's not even raining?
Why is he wearing a helmet when he's not even on a bike?
Why was there an ant in the video? Can you use an ant for protection? Is that safe?
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In reply to ben.phillips:
He doesn't have a rope on and doesn't clip into the nut. Hordes of non climbers will watch this and set off up routes placing nuts and not clipping in to them thinking they are safe! Won't anyone think of the children?
He doesn't have a rope on and doesn't clip into the nut. Hordes of non climbers will watch this and set off up routes placing nuts and not clipping in to them thinking they are safe! Won't anyone think of the children?
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In reply to ben.phillips:
Opinion? How about 'would have' not 'would of'? Your terrible grammar used up all my indignation...
> Come on people, where's the opinionated responses? - That placement would of lifted out...
Opinion? How about 'would have' not 'would of'? Your terrible grammar used up all my indignation...
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In reply to UKC Articles:
I would have put a size or two bigger in there - and removed (or initially have attempted to do so) with a smart upward tug,
Chris
I would have put a size or two bigger in there - and removed (or initially have attempted to do so) with a smart upward tug,
Chris
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In reply to ben.phillips:
'Firmly tug it...'
And not, weld it to the bastard rock; you know who you are.
'Firmly tug it...'
And not, weld it to the bastard rock; you know who you are.
Post edited at 08:31
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In reply to UKC Articles:
This summer I became more aware that not everyone knows how to place gear. Thankfully the people I climb with are excellent at this art but watching others climb I saw lots of gear falling out and long times spent placing - it clearly is not an art all master.
I have always taken pride in placing good gear that stays in so I keep up to date with articles on the subject. This one is fine as far as it goes but it only just touches on the wide range of variables that govern what makes a good nut placement.
Firstly there is nothing about assessing cracks to identify which nut to use - the one chosen fits perfectly - don't we wish that was always the case. I would like to have seen some examples of poorer placements and explanations of why they are poor before finally finding a good one and identifying what features make it so.
Also there is no reference to different types of nuts and how they work, they all have particular design features that suit them to different rock cavities. No mention of hexagonal nuts either - they may have been largely superceeded by cams but lots of people still use them and they should be covered.
I think another useful addition to this video would be to take a small area of crag and demonstrate lots of different placements with some analysis of their relative strengths & weaknesses.
I have read two other articles that are worth looking at to get a broader understanding of the skills of nut placement.
Julie Ellison of Climbing Magazine - Rock climbing basics.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=5725
This is well structured and touches briefly on what makes a good placement using the RDCS mnemonic - Rock Quality, Direction of pull, Constriction shape, Surface contact - to provide a way of assessing whether it is good enough. But again lacks variety and only shows one type of nut - Wild Country Rock. It makes a good point that the best way to learn about placement is to find a crag and try putting stuff in as many places as possible then evaluating them.
Tom Randall- Crack School
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=4694
This is more advanced and covers both nuts & friends. It includes several good tips for climbers who probably already know how to place gear, like not putting them in potential finger holds or where they interfere with the jamming action. Again it is sponsored by Wild Country so features their products only.
So thanks to UKC/PyB for producing this article but I really think that it is too sketchy - I look forward to later articles being more informative.
This summer I became more aware that not everyone knows how to place gear. Thankfully the people I climb with are excellent at this art but watching others climb I saw lots of gear falling out and long times spent placing - it clearly is not an art all master.
I have always taken pride in placing good gear that stays in so I keep up to date with articles on the subject. This one is fine as far as it goes but it only just touches on the wide range of variables that govern what makes a good nut placement.
Firstly there is nothing about assessing cracks to identify which nut to use - the one chosen fits perfectly - don't we wish that was always the case. I would like to have seen some examples of poorer placements and explanations of why they are poor before finally finding a good one and identifying what features make it so.
Also there is no reference to different types of nuts and how they work, they all have particular design features that suit them to different rock cavities. No mention of hexagonal nuts either - they may have been largely superceeded by cams but lots of people still use them and they should be covered.
I think another useful addition to this video would be to take a small area of crag and demonstrate lots of different placements with some analysis of their relative strengths & weaknesses.
I have read two other articles that are worth looking at to get a broader understanding of the skills of nut placement.
Julie Ellison of Climbing Magazine - Rock climbing basics.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=5725
This is well structured and touches briefly on what makes a good placement using the RDCS mnemonic - Rock Quality, Direction of pull, Constriction shape, Surface contact - to provide a way of assessing whether it is good enough. But again lacks variety and only shows one type of nut - Wild Country Rock. It makes a good point that the best way to learn about placement is to find a crag and try putting stuff in as many places as possible then evaluating them.
Tom Randall- Crack School
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=4694
This is more advanced and covers both nuts & friends. It includes several good tips for climbers who probably already know how to place gear, like not putting them in potential finger holds or where they interfere with the jamming action. Again it is sponsored by Wild Country so features their products only.
So thanks to UKC/PyB for producing this article but I really think that it is too sketchy - I look forward to later articles being more informative.
Post edited at 08:35
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"Instructional Videos - #4 Nut Placements"
Can't wait for the videos on placing other sizes of Nut.
Can't wait for the videos on placing other sizes of Nut.
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In reply to Chris Craggs:
In terms of removing with a smart upward tug, I used to do that until someone suggested to me that would create more wear of the placement and that seemed to me to be a good point so I stopped doing it.
In terms of removing with a smart upward tug, I used to do that until someone suggested to me that would create more wear of the placement and that seemed to me to be a good point so I stopped doing it.
Post edited at 09:35
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In reply to ericinbristol:
I'm not sure whether it would cause more wear or not. Does that mean you use a nut-key to remove every nut - seems like a bit of faff?
Chris
> In terms of removing with a smart upward tug, I used to do that until someone suggested to me that would create more wear of the placement and that seemed to me to be a good point so I stopped doing it.
I'm not sure whether it would cause more wear or not. Does that mean you use a nut-key to remove every nut - seems like a bit of faff?
Chris
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In reply to ericinbristol:
It can also sometimes jam the nut in making it more difficult to get out and leave the wires bent. But we all do it.
> In terms of removing with a smart upward tug, I used to do that until someone suggested to me that would create more wear of the placement and that seemed to me to be a good point so I stopped doing it.
It can also sometimes jam the nut in making it more difficult to get out and leave the wires bent. But we all do it.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
IMHO the correct way to remove a nut is to reverse the process of placing it i.e. push it upwards releasing the wedge effect.
With larger nuts it is sometimes possible to use fingers for this but with smaller ones I use the swage to push upwards with a little sideways rocking - this often frees it to move up and out. A nut key is usually only needed if a nut is too firmly jammed e.g. having taken a fall.
I reckon that the method shown here may lead to the nut getting more tightly jammed in place in some cracks.
IMHO the correct way to remove a nut is to reverse the process of placing it i.e. push it upwards releasing the wedge effect.
With larger nuts it is sometimes possible to use fingers for this but with smaller ones I use the swage to push upwards with a little sideways rocking - this often frees it to move up and out. A nut key is usually only needed if a nut is too firmly jammed e.g. having taken a fall.
I reckon that the method shown here may lead to the nut getting more tightly jammed in place in some cracks.
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In reply to UKC Articles:
I'm with Keith - I really wonder what the function of this was, because it certainly doesn't deliver on its promise that: "Everyone, from beginners to the sport to veterans, will find these instructional videos useful for learning basics and polishing up on essential skills." I guess running a website like this is very expensive, and "teaming up" with others, aka, offering them advertising space, is pretty vital to paying the rent? Well, in that case, go ahead - you're providing a great resource (... the website, not the video)!
Anyhow, my "wisdom" as a newbie with only one summer of trad leading under my belt -- or, things I ruminated upon as I watched my runners sliding down the rope beneath me:
1. Placing gear is surprisingly intuitive, but even the simplest things are easy to fk up when you're gripped out of your mind.
2. Look at the route you're climbing before you set off, and think about where you might get gear, how you'll get into a good body position to place gear from, and what'll go in.
3. Rack your nuts carefully and split them up by size across two or even three carabiners, as those super light rocks feel surprisingly heavy when you're pumped and juggling them.
4. When you're slotting a nut into a constriction, try to get a snug fit, and then firmly tug the nut down into it; its quite shocking how easily the friction of the rope can pull a nut out.
5. And remember that both your rope tightening and a fall will generate a certain degree of outward pull; make sure that the nut won't pop outward.
6. Further to that, make sure your belayer isn't holding the rope so tight that they start to lift (badly seated) nuts out. I think standing too far back from the wall also adds to this - a bad habit belayers seem to get into when toproping indoors (haven't you encountered these people, trailing their rope across the whole gym, so that they don't have to bend their necks?!)
6. As you move past a placement, be careful to avoid pulling out the gear by getting your limbs caught in the rope (again, worse if the rope is too tight).
7. Add some offsets to your nuts and you'll be laughing. But, I've not seen anyone place a micro yet... so, I guess probably leave them to the E-chasers.
8. Be careful not to bound past good nut placements, in your eagerness, or you'll suddenly find yourself run out on a blank section...
9. Other times you've just got to move on for better gear.
10. On my local limestone crag, a good nut is worth three cams, as the latter tend to skid out...
I've also had that venerable adage, "a placement is only as good as the rock it's in," passed on to me, and would add to it the theory that a nut puts less force on the rock around it than an expanding cam. Beyond that, my friend Jim, an old-hand with a hex as big as a horse, told me you're only allowed nuts and slings on mountain routes, or it's sacrilege. But, that was only to make us feel better about "borrowing" a friend's cam set to go to Yorkshire, knowing they were off to climb in Scotland the next day...
C
(p.s. I know, but 10 seemed like a good round number)
I'm with Keith - I really wonder what the function of this was, because it certainly doesn't deliver on its promise that: "Everyone, from beginners to the sport to veterans, will find these instructional videos useful for learning basics and polishing up on essential skills." I guess running a website like this is very expensive, and "teaming up" with others, aka, offering them advertising space, is pretty vital to paying the rent? Well, in that case, go ahead - you're providing a great resource (... the website, not the video)!
Anyhow, my "wisdom" as a newbie with only one summer of trad leading under my belt -- or, things I ruminated upon as I watched my runners sliding down the rope beneath me:
1. Placing gear is surprisingly intuitive, but even the simplest things are easy to fk up when you're gripped out of your mind.
2. Look at the route you're climbing before you set off, and think about where you might get gear, how you'll get into a good body position to place gear from, and what'll go in.
3. Rack your nuts carefully and split them up by size across two or even three carabiners, as those super light rocks feel surprisingly heavy when you're pumped and juggling them.
4. When you're slotting a nut into a constriction, try to get a snug fit, and then firmly tug the nut down into it; its quite shocking how easily the friction of the rope can pull a nut out.
5. And remember that both your rope tightening and a fall will generate a certain degree of outward pull; make sure that the nut won't pop outward.
6. Further to that, make sure your belayer isn't holding the rope so tight that they start to lift (badly seated) nuts out. I think standing too far back from the wall also adds to this - a bad habit belayers seem to get into when toproping indoors (haven't you encountered these people, trailing their rope across the whole gym, so that they don't have to bend their necks?!)
6. As you move past a placement, be careful to avoid pulling out the gear by getting your limbs caught in the rope (again, worse if the rope is too tight).
7. Add some offsets to your nuts and you'll be laughing. But, I've not seen anyone place a micro yet... so, I guess probably leave them to the E-chasers.
8. Be careful not to bound past good nut placements, in your eagerness, or you'll suddenly find yourself run out on a blank section...
9. Other times you've just got to move on for better gear.
10. On my local limestone crag, a good nut is worth three cams, as the latter tend to skid out...
I've also had that venerable adage, "a placement is only as good as the rock it's in," passed on to me, and would add to it the theory that a nut puts less force on the rock around it than an expanding cam. Beyond that, my friend Jim, an old-hand with a hex as big as a horse, told me you're only allowed nuts and slings on mountain routes, or it's sacrilege. But, that was only to make us feel better about "borrowing" a friend's cam set to go to Yorkshire, knowing they were off to climb in Scotland the next day...
C
(p.s. I know, but 10 seemed like a good round number)
Post edited at 23:11
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In reply to C Witter:
A nice post.
I wonder if the reason for the 1 dislike was that C Witter dared to suggest that cams are not the be all and end all protection device.
A nice post.
I wonder if the reason for the 1 dislike was that C Witter dared to suggest that cams are not the be all and end all protection device.
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In reply to Rick Graham:
No one in the UK thinks that. Very different in the US. I recently climbed with three Americans in three days on routes up to E3. They each only carried one set of nuts and were very reluctant to place them, often ignoring bomber placements in favour of what I thought were dubious small cam placements.
> I wonder if the reason for the 1 dislike was that C Witter dared to suggest that cams are not the be all and end all protection device.
No one in the UK thinks that. Very different in the US. I recently climbed with three Americans in three days on routes up to E3. They each only carried one set of nuts and were very reluctant to place them, often ignoring bomber placements in favour of what I thought were dubious small cam placements.
In reply to Robert Durran:
There is often a dissing of hexes in favour of cams in this parish.
You often see that in the UK as well. Except they carry at least 3 sets of nuts
> No one in the UK thinks that.
There is often a dissing of hexes in favour of cams in this parish.
> Very different in the US. I recently climbed with three Americans in three days on routes up to E3. They each only carried one set of nuts and were very reluctant to place them, often ignoring bomber placements in favour of what I thought were dubious small cam placements.
You often see that in the UK as well. Except they carry at least 3 sets of nuts
In reply to Rick Graham:
It's those gits trailing their rope across the gym - they've come for me...
Or maybe all the fans of the video? I guess I misjudged it!
It's those gits trailing their rope across the gym - they've come for me...
Or maybe all the fans of the video? I guess I misjudged it!
In reply to UKC Articles:
I was astonished to find that somebody thinks placing nuts can be dealt with in a minute and a half. The whole thing is totally basic so only of use to complete novices, who might then run away with the idea that that is all there is to it. What about rotating the nut 180 degrees to see if its asymmetry offers a better placement? What about using nuts flat on their back? Just a couple of things without even giving it more than a moment's thought.
Don't agree with Chris Craggs either. Yanking wires out like that is what produces nuts with permanently bent wires which are then a pain to rack and place. If you can't remove a nut with your fingers or a gentle upward push it's much more sensible to use a nut key.
I was astonished to find that somebody thinks placing nuts can be dealt with in a minute and a half. The whole thing is totally basic so only of use to complete novices, who might then run away with the idea that that is all there is to it. What about rotating the nut 180 degrees to see if its asymmetry offers a better placement? What about using nuts flat on their back? Just a couple of things without even giving it more than a moment's thought.
Don't agree with Chris Craggs either. Yanking wires out like that is what produces nuts with permanently bent wires which are then a pain to rack and place. If you can't remove a nut with your fingers or a gentle upward push it's much more sensible to use a nut key.
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In reply to Rog Wilko:
I don't do much trad now - but I always preferred a nut to stay put when I placed it, seating it with a good solid tug - you wouldn't usually get it out without a bit of effort. I only ever used a nut key as a last resort.
Chris
> Don't agree with Chris Craggs either. Yanking wires out like that is what produces nuts with permanently bent wires which are then a pain to rack and place. If you can't remove a nut with your fingers or a gentle upward push it's much more sensible to use a nut key.
I don't do much trad now - but I always preferred a nut to stay put when I placed it, seating it with a good solid tug - you wouldn't usually get it out without a bit of effort. I only ever used a nut key as a last resort.
Chris
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In reply to Chris Craggs:
"I dont do much trad now" ... I think you are being very modest there Chris and thats not going to reasssure those buying some of the bestselling current trad guidebooks in the world, as edited by you.
"I dont do much trad now" ... I think you are being very modest there Chris and thats not going to reasssure those buying some of the bestselling current trad guidebooks in the world, as edited by you.
In reply to Offwidth:
Written by me actually - fortunately I have a very good memory
Chris
> "I dont do much trad now" ... I think you are being very modest there Chris and thats not going to reasssure those buying some of the bestselling current trad guidebooks in the world, as edited by you.
Written by me actually - fortunately I have a very good memory
Chris
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In reply to Rog Wilko:
Fair enough. Lots of points could have been discussed in the vid
In Chris's defence, I think he knows the difference in the effect of a light targeted tug to unseat the nut, depending on the placement and nut shape/type, which does not plastically deform the wire and full blooded yanking in all directions to get a nut out.
> I was astonished to find that somebody thinks placing nuts can be dealt with in a minute and a half. The whole thing is totally basic so only of use to complete novices, who might then run away with the idea that that is all there is to it. What about rotating the nut 180 degrees to see if its asymmetry offers a better placement? What about using nuts flat on their back? Just a couple of things without even giving it more than a moment's thought.
Fair enough. Lots of points could have been discussed in the vid
> Don't agree with Chris Craggs either. Yanking wires out like that is what produces nuts with permanently bent wires which are then a pain to rack and place. If you can't remove a nut with your fingers or a gentle upward push it's much more sensible to use a nut key.
In Chris's defence, I think he knows the difference in the effect of a light targeted tug to unseat the nut, depending on the placement and nut shape/type, which does not plastically deform the wire and full blooded yanking in all directions to get a nut out.
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