This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Has anyone on here done any bolting on slate or other softer rock? Which bolts/ glue combinations would be best? Any tips would be really useful. We are looking at developing a little crag in the southwest which fits all the criteria within the bmc fixed gear policy. I thought I would mention that before the thin end of wedge is brought up by a concerned party.
Thanks in advance
James
Thanks in advance
James
In reply to james mann:
I've never bolted slate and so no doubt someone will be alone in a minute to tell me I'm wrong.
I don't think you'd go too far wrong with Hilti re 500 glue and petzl collinox bolts.
Be generous with the bolt frequency so that there is always more than one runner between the climber and a death/serious injury fall.
youtube.com/watch?v=PwcKsr6d1Pc&
http://www.trekkinn.com/outdoor-mountain/petzl-collinox-10-mm/570943/p?utm_...
I've never bolted slate and so no doubt someone will be alone in a minute to tell me I'm wrong.
I don't think you'd go too far wrong with Hilti re 500 glue and petzl collinox bolts.
Be generous with the bolt frequency so that there is always more than one runner between the climber and a death/serious injury fall.
youtube.com/watch?v=PwcKsr6d1Pc&
http://www.trekkinn.com/outdoor-mountain/petzl-collinox-10-mm/570943/p?utm_...
Post edited at 10:50
1
In reply to JLS:
OK advice, but the Batinox is recommended for soft rock. The collinox looks a bit feeble against these guys.
8mm Rod Twisted Leg
Durability, strength, and performance. Stock 16mm diameter shaft at an economical price.
Breaking Strain-79kN
EN959.
AISI 316 (A4) Stainless Steel 16mm dia. hole.
Available from stock
Order Code Description Price
[GP8-100-16A4] 100mm (soft rock) €4,36
[GP8-150-16A4] 150mm (sandstone) €4,88
Other lengths to order
Edited extract from Bolt Products website.
We use these in Cumbria on slate and sandstone.
You will find slate quite soft to drill compared to most other rocks, so the 16mm hole required is not a big issue, get a good quality 24v or 36v hammer drill.
I assume you have been in touch with the Local and National BMC. There is years of experience and advice available from bolt funds and activists.
OK advice, but the Batinox is recommended for soft rock. The collinox looks a bit feeble against these guys.
8mm Rod Twisted Leg
Durability, strength, and performance. Stock 16mm diameter shaft at an economical price.
Breaking Strain-79kN
EN959.
AISI 316 (A4) Stainless Steel 16mm dia. hole.
Available from stock
Order Code Description Price
[GP8-100-16A4] 100mm (soft rock) €4,36
[GP8-150-16A4] 150mm (sandstone) €4,88
Other lengths to order
Edited extract from Bolt Products website.
We use these in Cumbria on slate and sandstone.
You will find slate quite soft to drill compared to most other rocks, so the 16mm hole required is not a big issue, get a good quality 24v or 36v hammer drill.
I assume you have been in touch with the Local and National BMC. There is years of experience and advice available from bolt funds and activists.
3
In reply to JLS:
This is not a very good choice of glue for 5 reasons.
1. It looks like red bubble gum so won't blend in very well.
2. It is a very runny resin that was designed to run into the back of deep holes. On the crag you will find that it will run back out of the hole and have no "viscous grab" if that makes sense.
3. It is always handy to have a resin that you can do route maintenance with, such as hold reenforcement and repair. A runny red glue won't work.
4. Long set time. It is a always good practice to inspect the placements to ensure the resin has gone off. Hilti re 500 can take several hours to go off.
5. Expensive resin and applicator. Unless you have a trade account??
Just get this stuff. Loads of it was purchased by the BMC for local bolt funds.
http://www.toolstation.com/m/part.html?p=51353
> I don't think you'd go too far wrong with Hilti re 500 glue and petzl collinox bolts.
This is not a very good choice of glue for 5 reasons.
1. It looks like red bubble gum so won't blend in very well.
2. It is a very runny resin that was designed to run into the back of deep holes. On the crag you will find that it will run back out of the hole and have no "viscous grab" if that makes sense.
3. It is always handy to have a resin that you can do route maintenance with, such as hold reenforcement and repair. A runny red glue won't work.
4. Long set time. It is a always good practice to inspect the placements to ensure the resin has gone off. Hilti re 500 can take several hours to go off.
5. Expensive resin and applicator. Unless you have a trade account??
Just get this stuff. Loads of it was purchased by the BMC for local bolt funds.
http://www.toolstation.com/m/part.html?p=51353
In reply to Dan Arkle:
it may be camera angel but it looks as the drill is cutting boring at about 5/10 Degrees above the horizontal .
is this best practice, and why anyone?
it may be camera angel but it looks as the drill is cutting boring at about 5/10 Degrees above the horizontal .
is this best practice, and why anyone?
In reply to james mann:
Having installed thousands of bolts (expansion and resin) over a 24 year time frame globally, the points made regarding Hilti RE 500 resin are not correct.
1) Whilst initially a vibrant red colour, RE 500 fades to a more natural stone or opaque colour within 1 - 2 years.
2) RE 500 can be easily injected into inverted holes due to the viscosity of the resin and resultant surface tension once injected. This historically used to be a problem not because of resins but the bolt intended to be set within the hole would not self support whilst the resin gelled. Bolt Products, Titan Climbing and the Wave bolt all feature an inference fit to eliminate that issue.
3) I have used RE 500 on multiple occassions for hold reinforcement because it is a pure epoxy and flows well into tiny cracks. Other resin types; eg methyl acrylate i.e not pure epoxy, feature other constituents such as aggregate that inhibit resin flow in this application. I have also seen crimps glued back onto walls using RE 500.
4) Resin systems feature a gel time and cure time; the gel time being the workable period in which it can be injected into holes and the cure time when the bolt may be fully loaded. For RE500 this is typically within 20 - 30 minutes on the basis of continued injection (mixer nozzle contents being refreshed) and typical (ambient) temperature ranges encountered. Cure times for RE 500 are typically 8 - 12 hours for a full cure.
Practically this means gluing one day and climbing the next at the earliest - which in itself is not really a show stopper. More relevant is ensuring no one uses those freshly installed bolts until the cure time has elapsed and I address this by tagging the bolts with laminated cards in multiple languages with my contact details warning the bolts must not be used.
Faster gelling resins require efficient movement on fixed rope to complete the resin injection and bolt placement before it hardens inside the mixer nozzle. Therefore resins, such as Hilti HY-150 which gel in well under 10 minutes, do not necessarily constitute an advantage considering that if the resin cannot be dispensed, a new nozzle must be attached and a certain number of trigger pulls wasted before the injection can be continued.
Whilst slower acting, pure epoxies are distinctly superior with regards to longterm performance and in particular; strength. I have conducted radial pull tests on a number of different makes of resin bolt and with pure epoxies, typically bolts are very difficult (if not impossible) to extract with RE 500 but certainly can be extracted with methyl acrylates, polymer resins.
The aggregate found in some resins can reduce flow around the shaft of a given bolt and in the case of any design that uses notches (stamped or otherwise) for keying eg Fixe, the aggrgate particle size is equal to or bigger than the notches. This is one reason why radial pull test results are way lower than compared to using a pure epoxy.
In locations with high humidity and tremperatures eg Thailand, a practical gel time is very important in ensuring the resin to rock bond is established before gelling finishes. This is but one reason why teams only use RE 500.
To verify the reaction has occurred, I always inspect the foil pack wrapper into which the initial trigger pulls were dispensed and the mixer nozzle itself. RE 500 is an exothermix reaction and generates notable heat. A few hours later and the mixer nozzle can be snapped in half to confirm the resin has reacted prior to returning to the route for a visual inspection.
5) RE 500 is widely recognised to be one of the best pure epoxies available for use with climbing bolts. It can be expensive subject to where in the world you intend to purchase. Cheap in Asia, notably expensive in Australia and pricey in the UK. It can be an advantage to those who equip in multiple countries knowing that RE 500 is available and consistent in performance and use whether it be in Vietnam or the UK. Certainly other products are available that are cheaper in the UK; Titan Climbing sell one product, Exchem resin is used by UK Cavers (toxicology reasons ruled out RE 500).
Regards,
Francis
http://francishaden.wordpress.com
Having installed thousands of bolts (expansion and resin) over a 24 year time frame globally, the points made regarding Hilti RE 500 resin are not correct.
1) Whilst initially a vibrant red colour, RE 500 fades to a more natural stone or opaque colour within 1 - 2 years.
2) RE 500 can be easily injected into inverted holes due to the viscosity of the resin and resultant surface tension once injected. This historically used to be a problem not because of resins but the bolt intended to be set within the hole would not self support whilst the resin gelled. Bolt Products, Titan Climbing and the Wave bolt all feature an inference fit to eliminate that issue.
3) I have used RE 500 on multiple occassions for hold reinforcement because it is a pure epoxy and flows well into tiny cracks. Other resin types; eg methyl acrylate i.e not pure epoxy, feature other constituents such as aggregate that inhibit resin flow in this application. I have also seen crimps glued back onto walls using RE 500.
4) Resin systems feature a gel time and cure time; the gel time being the workable period in which it can be injected into holes and the cure time when the bolt may be fully loaded. For RE500 this is typically within 20 - 30 minutes on the basis of continued injection (mixer nozzle contents being refreshed) and typical (ambient) temperature ranges encountered. Cure times for RE 500 are typically 8 - 12 hours for a full cure.
Practically this means gluing one day and climbing the next at the earliest - which in itself is not really a show stopper. More relevant is ensuring no one uses those freshly installed bolts until the cure time has elapsed and I address this by tagging the bolts with laminated cards in multiple languages with my contact details warning the bolts must not be used.
Faster gelling resins require efficient movement on fixed rope to complete the resin injection and bolt placement before it hardens inside the mixer nozzle. Therefore resins, such as Hilti HY-150 which gel in well under 10 minutes, do not necessarily constitute an advantage considering that if the resin cannot be dispensed, a new nozzle must be attached and a certain number of trigger pulls wasted before the injection can be continued.
Whilst slower acting, pure epoxies are distinctly superior with regards to longterm performance and in particular; strength. I have conducted radial pull tests on a number of different makes of resin bolt and with pure epoxies, typically bolts are very difficult (if not impossible) to extract with RE 500 but certainly can be extracted with methyl acrylates, polymer resins.
The aggregate found in some resins can reduce flow around the shaft of a given bolt and in the case of any design that uses notches (stamped or otherwise) for keying eg Fixe, the aggrgate particle size is equal to or bigger than the notches. This is one reason why radial pull test results are way lower than compared to using a pure epoxy.
In locations with high humidity and tremperatures eg Thailand, a practical gel time is very important in ensuring the resin to rock bond is established before gelling finishes. This is but one reason why teams only use RE 500.
To verify the reaction has occurred, I always inspect the foil pack wrapper into which the initial trigger pulls were dispensed and the mixer nozzle itself. RE 500 is an exothermix reaction and generates notable heat. A few hours later and the mixer nozzle can be snapped in half to confirm the resin has reacted prior to returning to the route for a visual inspection.
5) RE 500 is widely recognised to be one of the best pure epoxies available for use with climbing bolts. It can be expensive subject to where in the world you intend to purchase. Cheap in Asia, notably expensive in Australia and pricey in the UK. It can be an advantage to those who equip in multiple countries knowing that RE 500 is available and consistent in performance and use whether it be in Vietnam or the UK. Certainly other products are available that are cheaper in the UK; Titan Climbing sell one product, Exchem resin is used by UK Cavers (toxicology reasons ruled out RE 500).
Regards,
Francis
http://francishaden.wordpress.com
10
In reply to fwh1:
Wow some detail there. I can only comment on my experience with the stuff which was bad. Before the twisted leg tight fit bolt product bolt I was using the Fixe that was a 10mm bolt inserted into a 12mm hole. On a steep Peak limestone 8b on a winters day the glue had not even gelled hours later and some effort had to be made to stop the bolt from sliding. Just look at the spec sheet and you will see the working, cure, full cure times at 5C to 10C are ridiculous.
Peak Limestone is cold and white not like Thailand or Breen. Those bolts have been in 8 years now and as strong as houses no doubt but they still look crap against the white rock.
Not unless Hilti have changed this glue over the years it had the consistency of single cream.
Fast setting thick glues for hold work is vital for steep limestone. I challenge anybody to hold a toaster sized block in place whilst hanging from a wind sweeped roof on a cold February day for hours watching the red gunk trickel down their forearms.
Wow some detail there. I can only comment on my experience with the stuff which was bad. Before the twisted leg tight fit bolt product bolt I was using the Fixe that was a 10mm bolt inserted into a 12mm hole. On a steep Peak limestone 8b on a winters day the glue had not even gelled hours later and some effort had to be made to stop the bolt from sliding. Just look at the spec sheet and you will see the working, cure, full cure times at 5C to 10C are ridiculous.
Peak Limestone is cold and white not like Thailand or Breen. Those bolts have been in 8 years now and as strong as houses no doubt but they still look crap against the white rock.
Not unless Hilti have changed this glue over the years it had the consistency of single cream.
Fast setting thick glues for hold work is vital for steep limestone. I challenge anybody to hold a toaster sized block in place whilst hanging from a wind sweeped roof on a cold February day for hours watching the red gunk trickel down their forearms.
Just to add one more point. I don't have the luxury of coming back the next day to sign of my work. I want to see that the glue has gone hard to the touch from the point of the first squirt to the last and that is done as I strip the route and leave the crag.
1
2
In reply to fwh1:
To summarise what Kristian is saying, it's grim up North, and a resin which works for sunshine climbers might not be so good for us up here I know Gary used some Re-500 at Masson Lees, I'm not sure what he thought of it.
Personally, I've used Fischer FIS VT which is an injection mortar based on vinylester with good results for Bolt Products anchors. With an ETAG cert. it's meant to be good for 50 years minimum. That said, I'm picking up some Titanclimbing bolts tomorrow to trial with the pure epoxy Martin supplies to go with it, be interesting to see what it's like to use.
What's really encouraging is that there are now manufacturer's producing anchors with the idea that they will last not for 15-20 years, but 50, maybe even a 100. That's got to be a better way than littering sport crags with clusters of knackered old bolts.
To the OP: drop me a PM I may be able to help you out.
To summarise what Kristian is saying, it's grim up North, and a resin which works for sunshine climbers might not be so good for us up here I know Gary used some Re-500 at Masson Lees, I'm not sure what he thought of it.
Personally, I've used Fischer FIS VT which is an injection mortar based on vinylester with good results for Bolt Products anchors. With an ETAG cert. it's meant to be good for 50 years minimum. That said, I'm picking up some Titanclimbing bolts tomorrow to trial with the pure epoxy Martin supplies to go with it, be interesting to see what it's like to use.
What's really encouraging is that there are now manufacturer's producing anchors with the idea that they will last not for 15-20 years, but 50, maybe even a 100. That's got to be a better way than littering sport crags with clusters of knackered old bolts.
To the OP: drop me a PM I may be able to help you out.
1
In reply to Dan Middleton, BMC:
My use of RE 500 is n't just restricted to warmer climates, having used plenty of it during UK winters.
The use of resin bolts is increasing globally and the choice of resin will become increasingly more debated due to the many products available and ranging results they produce. Short term performance can change in the long term citing depolymerisation as an example of a problem that can occur 10 - 20 years later in certain resin types when pure epoxies outperform.
Martin has used RE500 extensively but sourced the G&B due to the cost point raised in this thread. It's a good product and ironically fits the older style Hilti dispenser!
My use of RE 500 is n't just restricted to warmer climates, having used plenty of it during UK winters.
The use of resin bolts is increasing globally and the choice of resin will become increasingly more debated due to the many products available and ranging results they produce. Short term performance can change in the long term citing depolymerisation as an example of a problem that can occur 10 - 20 years later in certain resin types when pure epoxies outperform.
Martin has used RE500 extensively but sourced the G&B due to the cost point raised in this thread. It's a good product and ironically fits the older style Hilti dispenser!
2
In reply to fwh1:
All well and good, personally I don´t like RE500 and never use it, it is messy, slow, poor consistency, comes in a crap delivery system and is far too expensive. It also has environmental problems. I personally use a vinylester or epoxyacrylate (a modified vinylester) as they are adaptable, give good results, quick curing and economical. The expected lifespan under EOTA is the same.
It is worth noting that the certification for the bolts includes the resin, I don´t know of any manufacturer that has certified with and sells Hilti products. The strongest pull-out results are almost always achieved using liquid vinylester in glass capsules, not with epoxies which seem to have difficulties wetting the rock out properly sometimes. It is also worth noting that the only resins Hilti themselves approve for use in some types of natural stone are HY270, MM plus and HFX which are all methacrylates.
By all means use RE 500 but I would not be of the opinion it is either the best or optimum product by any means, the colour is still vile by any standards:-!
Jim Titt
Bolt Products
All well and good, personally I don´t like RE500 and never use it, it is messy, slow, poor consistency, comes in a crap delivery system and is far too expensive. It also has environmental problems. I personally use a vinylester or epoxyacrylate (a modified vinylester) as they are adaptable, give good results, quick curing and economical. The expected lifespan under EOTA is the same.
It is worth noting that the certification for the bolts includes the resin, I don´t know of any manufacturer that has certified with and sells Hilti products. The strongest pull-out results are almost always achieved using liquid vinylester in glass capsules, not with epoxies which seem to have difficulties wetting the rock out properly sometimes. It is also worth noting that the only resins Hilti themselves approve for use in some types of natural stone are HY270, MM plus and HFX which are all methacrylates.
By all means use RE 500 but I would not be of the opinion it is either the best or optimum product by any means, the colour is still vile by any standards:-!
Jim Titt
Bolt Products
4
In reply to Dan Middleton, BMC:
It's a good point that you note about the increasing life expectancy Dan. We have been pushing hard with UIAA to change their guidelines for fixed equipment so that specific bolts/anchors of different materials and designs can be chosen to match a particular environment and be expected to last 50 years. It seems that 304 might not even make the cut for use outdoors.
Cheers,
Martin
www.titanclimbing.com
It's a good point that you note about the increasing life expectancy Dan. We have been pushing hard with UIAA to change their guidelines for fixed equipment so that specific bolts/anchors of different materials and designs can be chosen to match a particular environment and be expected to last 50 years. It seems that 304 might not even make the cut for use outdoors.
Cheers,
Martin
www.titanclimbing.com
In reply to fwh1:
I think that's why Hilti have developed a new resin gun as many manufacturers (including the G&B Epoxy that we sell) have made resin cartridges to fit the old Hilti MD2000 resin gun. I really like that resin gun and there's many second hand ones for sale on ebay for not much money.
I also really like the slower setting epoxy resins so I'm not rushing from one hole to the next and I can make a really tidy job of every bolt installation without resin going off in the nozzle.
I'm not a fan of the RE-500 colour when it's fresh but it does tone down to a brown colour as Francis mentioned. We know the price is an issue and those two reasons are why I much prefer the G&B that sets to a nice grey colour.
Martin
Titan Climbing
I think that's why Hilti have developed a new resin gun as many manufacturers (including the G&B Epoxy that we sell) have made resin cartridges to fit the old Hilti MD2000 resin gun. I really like that resin gun and there's many second hand ones for sale on ebay for not much money.
I also really like the slower setting epoxy resins so I'm not rushing from one hole to the next and I can make a really tidy job of every bolt installation without resin going off in the nozzle.
I'm not a fan of the RE-500 colour when it's fresh but it does tone down to a brown colour as Francis mentioned. We know the price is an issue and those two reasons are why I much prefer the G&B that sets to a nice grey colour.
Martin
Titan Climbing
In reply to Dan Middleton, BMC: I have used RE500 quite a bit in regearing. It's perfect for drill hole, clean hole, glue bolt, move on. I have only used it in situations where the routes won't be done for a short while and have had absolutely no problem with it: the colour changes quickly and I haven't had any problem with it 'running out of the hole' with any bolts. I do concur with Jim Titt in its expense i.e. The cost of the glue gun and the cost of the glue. As I already have two of the glue guns from the other Hilit glues and I buy job lots of the stuff off eBay for around £8-£10 a tube. But as I have finished my Peak regearing efforts, and crimes I've done enough although I have one more crag in mind, I doubt I'll use it again. I now use a Fischer resin from Toolstation at around £10 a tube.
1
In reply to jimtitt:
Normally I agree with you all the time Jim but on this occasion I'll have to disagree!
No poor consistency issues with RE 500 during my use of it - what are you specifically referring too? Mixing consistency or component quality?
As for 'mess' problems, no issue there either. Certainly it is free flowing compared to the other types you mention but not an issue to prevent its use in inverted holes either. Inject, depress the dispenser catch to relieve pressure off the foil pack (a classic reason why some dribble it over everything), wipe the mixer nozzle with rag, focus on inserting the bolt, use the same rag to clean up before moving on.
RE500 is by no means the only choice but having said that, it is a very good product and perhaps more so than other options, has known historical use associated with it. Given some of the issues I have seen over 20 years of using resin systems, I take comfort in knowing that RE500 has good longterm performance.
The cost is obviously a big disadvantage but as I noted earlier, it is very cheap here in Asia and I know I can source it globally, which for what I do, is absolutely critical. Some of the resins discussed in this thread are simply not available in some of the places I've bolted whereas Hilti products are. Less risk for a mission critical item if one can purchase locally rather than flying with it!
Petzl specifically refer to the use of RE500 with both of their rings, Titan climbing for their bolts and I seem to remember Fixe in previous times but might be wrong there.
Interested about your comment re liquid vinyl esters vs epoxy as it seems contrary to your bar chart? The difference with one of your 6mm twisties in a test using HY-150 vs RE500 is very clear; the RE500 bolt cannot be budged beyond eye deformation (I gave up at 50kN) whereas the HY-150 will pull out (above cert pass load).
The putty like characteristics that is a big thread winner is definitely nicer to use but I prefer epoxies for their strength.
It is worth noting that RE500 has the capacity for high loads in over sized holes (this coming directly from Hilti tech).
I would upload images to this thread of the faded colour that RE500 changes to over time.
Agree that the delivery system is bulky and expensive - it is industrial kit after all so Hilti are n't manufacturing it with us in mind. The foil pack is a mixed blessing; it is at risk of being punctured and the individual tubes can detach rendering it unusable. Once used however, the pack compresses down which is an improvement on the solid tubes in terms of plastic wastage. I avoid punctured packs by pre-loading the holder before leaving home so it is already protected. That said I have flown RE500 packs into the UK, just back from Thailand 2 days ago, Greece, Australia to name a few countries with no broken packs.
It's a matter of local choice so this is by no means a criticism of other resins used in the UK, moreover clarification regarding RE500 in the context of user experience.
If I could n't get RE500 cheaply or its performance was poor then I'd be using something else.
Normally I agree with you all the time Jim but on this occasion I'll have to disagree!
No poor consistency issues with RE 500 during my use of it - what are you specifically referring too? Mixing consistency or component quality?
As for 'mess' problems, no issue there either. Certainly it is free flowing compared to the other types you mention but not an issue to prevent its use in inverted holes either. Inject, depress the dispenser catch to relieve pressure off the foil pack (a classic reason why some dribble it over everything), wipe the mixer nozzle with rag, focus on inserting the bolt, use the same rag to clean up before moving on.
RE500 is by no means the only choice but having said that, it is a very good product and perhaps more so than other options, has known historical use associated with it. Given some of the issues I have seen over 20 years of using resin systems, I take comfort in knowing that RE500 has good longterm performance.
The cost is obviously a big disadvantage but as I noted earlier, it is very cheap here in Asia and I know I can source it globally, which for what I do, is absolutely critical. Some of the resins discussed in this thread are simply not available in some of the places I've bolted whereas Hilti products are. Less risk for a mission critical item if one can purchase locally rather than flying with it!
Petzl specifically refer to the use of RE500 with both of their rings, Titan climbing for their bolts and I seem to remember Fixe in previous times but might be wrong there.
Interested about your comment re liquid vinyl esters vs epoxy as it seems contrary to your bar chart? The difference with one of your 6mm twisties in a test using HY-150 vs RE500 is very clear; the RE500 bolt cannot be budged beyond eye deformation (I gave up at 50kN) whereas the HY-150 will pull out (above cert pass load).
The putty like characteristics that is a big thread winner is definitely nicer to use but I prefer epoxies for their strength.
It is worth noting that RE500 has the capacity for high loads in over sized holes (this coming directly from Hilti tech).
I would upload images to this thread of the faded colour that RE500 changes to over time.
Agree that the delivery system is bulky and expensive - it is industrial kit after all so Hilti are n't manufacturing it with us in mind. The foil pack is a mixed blessing; it is at risk of being punctured and the individual tubes can detach rendering it unusable. Once used however, the pack compresses down which is an improvement on the solid tubes in terms of plastic wastage. I avoid punctured packs by pre-loading the holder before leaving home so it is already protected. That said I have flown RE500 packs into the UK, just back from Thailand 2 days ago, Greece, Australia to name a few countries with no broken packs.
It's a matter of local choice so this is by no means a criticism of other resins used in the UK, moreover clarification regarding RE500 in the context of user experience.
If I could n't get RE500 cheaply or its performance was poor then I'd be using something else.
Post edited at 00:24
2
In reply to fwh1:
OK we will have to agree to disagree and most definitely about its suitability for hold repair.
But my advice to somebody that wants a multipurpose resin that is both good for bolts and hold repair go for a resin such as the Fischer.
Hold repair resin needs to be thick enough to point with, be quick to dry, especially if you need to hold it in place, have a good color and leave a reasonably rough surface. It's like taking one bottle into the shower.
My point of being able to confirm that the resin has actually gone off before one has left the crag is very valid. We all know of a few instance where the glue has not set. You may say that you should tag the bolts and come back to inspect at a later date, but why make things hard for yourself.
So in practice how it would work is to drill and maticulasly clean the holes. Clean out behind loose holds and pop detached ones in a bag then start gluing, hopefully in one hit. This way you save on nozzles and minimise glue wastage.
OK we will have to agree to disagree and most definitely about its suitability for hold repair.
But my advice to somebody that wants a multipurpose resin that is both good for bolts and hold repair go for a resin such as the Fischer.
Hold repair resin needs to be thick enough to point with, be quick to dry, especially if you need to hold it in place, have a good color and leave a reasonably rough surface. It's like taking one bottle into the shower.
My point of being able to confirm that the resin has actually gone off before one has left the crag is very valid. We all know of a few instance where the glue has not set. You may say that you should tag the bolts and come back to inspect at a later date, but why make things hard for yourself.
So in practice how it would work is to drill and maticulasly clean the holes. Clean out behind loose holds and pop detached ones in a bag then start gluing, hopefully in one hit. This way you save on nozzles and minimise glue wastage.
In reply to kristian:
All fair comment but actually quite easy and little extra work to ....
Pump out some resin until it is a consistent colour and texture, ie mixed properly. bag the discard.
Stick two slates/ pieces of card with the next pump out of resin keep this as a sample.
glue some bolts in
write on the sample and the used cartridge what bolts/route/date etc
You then have a complete record and a sample on the ground to test/ check it has set.
> My point of being able to confirm that the resin has actually gone off before one has left the crag is very valid. We all know of a few instance where the glue has not set. You may say that you should tag the bolts and come back to inspect at a later date, but why make things hard for yourself.
All fair comment but actually quite easy and little extra work to ....
Pump out some resin until it is a consistent colour and texture, ie mixed properly. bag the discard.
Stick two slates/ pieces of card with the next pump out of resin keep this as a sample.
glue some bolts in
write on the sample and the used cartridge what bolts/route/date etc
You then have a complete record and a sample on the ground to test/ check it has set.
1
In reply to Rick Graham:
I just look in the rubbish bag in my rucksack at the last nozzle I used. Why make it more complicated?
I´ve done all that wait 24 hours business, I installed maybe 2,500 bolts with epoxy once and far prefer that I use different resin, bolt the route and then climb it straightaway if I want to or walk away knowing it is safe for the next person to climb.
RE500 is like Marmite, love it or hate it. But we are trying to make clear to the OP that Hilti products aren´t universally considered nescessary or even best and he should make his own choice or ask other experienced equippers what they suggest and the reasons behind their choice. For the (novice) bolter most vinylesters are a better choice in my opinion and that is what I use and recommend, both as a manufacturer and installer. Francis is of another opinion
I just look in the rubbish bag in my rucksack at the last nozzle I used. Why make it more complicated?
I´ve done all that wait 24 hours business, I installed maybe 2,500 bolts with epoxy once and far prefer that I use different resin, bolt the route and then climb it straightaway if I want to or walk away knowing it is safe for the next person to climb.
RE500 is like Marmite, love it or hate it. But we are trying to make clear to the OP that Hilti products aren´t universally considered nescessary or even best and he should make his own choice or ask other experienced equippers what they suggest and the reasons behind their choice. For the (novice) bolter most vinylesters are a better choice in my opinion and that is what I use and recommend, both as a manufacturer and installer. Francis is of another opinion
In reply to james mann:
The main issue with bolting slate isn't the type of Bolts & Resin used but the quality of slate they are placed in.....
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=177740
The main issue with bolting slate isn't the type of Bolts & Resin used but the quality of slate they are placed in.....
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=177740
2
In reply to Sl@te Head:
A few of us had a really good look last weekend and feel that the rock quality is certainly good enough to place solid anchors in. What do people think is the best current thinking about lower offs in terms of wear and tear?
James
A few of us had a really good look last weekend and feel that the rock quality is certainly good enough to place solid anchors in. What do people think is the best current thinking about lower offs in terms of wear and tear?
James
Post edited at 23:19
In reply to james mann:
Slate quality can vary massively from placement to placement even on a single route, the density and quality of slate is very variable you will notice this when you tap around with a hammer and also when you drill. Slate's mud stone and not like any other rock so beware!
Slate quality can vary massively from placement to placement even on a single route, the density and quality of slate is very variable you will notice this when you tap around with a hammer and also when you drill. Slate's mud stone and not like any other rock so beware!
In reply to jimtitt:
Marmite in the post Jim : )))
I do exactly the same and check the nozzle and foil bag later once I've left the crag.
Additionally, I tag the first bolt and anchor because a) it's very fast if you have tags prepared but b) I know instances where climbers have loaded resin bolts and pulled them out after the installer left the area. One instance involved a vinylester resin (literally minutes after the equipper left a team moved in from an adjacent sector on abseil, clipped into one of the bolts and pulled it straight out) and the other a pure epoxy, c) It is a clear way of identifying that a first ascent is yet to be made and to please hold off climbing the route for now.
Granted the faster gelling and curing times of non epoxy resins almost certainly preclude the above from happening to anything but epoxy equipped routes however my preference is to build insurance in at all stages regardless of what resin system I'm using.
Some areas globally in which I've equipped are not suitable for using anything other than an epoxy so tagging is standard practice amongst teams in those regions. Recognise this is perhaps not so relevant to James in his case.
The points made regarding RE500 are in the context of my use of it in the UK, Europe, Asia and Australia however the cost alone is an immediate barrier to most people thinking of using it. I can source a 500ml foil pack for around GBP 15-16 which I believe is approximately 50% cheaper than UK walk in prices.
Granted it wont work if you have a detached block and want to stick that back onto the wall due to the gel time but for typical weak hold reinforcement it works very well and can penetrate thin cracks due to the viscosity.
Epoxies are stronger, have very good durability longterm but crucially for someone who will be getting to grips with the whole gluing process, an advantage due to the slower gel time. The injection process is crucial to ensuring a sound placement so not something to be rushed. Most of us on this thread I asume to have placed a significant quantity of resin bolts so will have a slick routine and therefore unfazed by a resin that gels within 10 minutes. I've seen relatively experienced equippers who being ok with an epoxy then make a complete hash of using a faster gelling resin because the accelerated gel time catches them off guard.
James,
Having bolted on slate, I agree with previous posts about using deeper than normal bolts and Jim's would be a good choice in that regard.
For lower offs I follow these basic principles;
Constructed such that no single component can damage the rope or cut it, has no single component that if it failed would cause a fatality - I can cite examples where climbers have threaded lower offs completely incorrectly then find themselves in hospital 2 days later. Resin bolted lower offs excel in this regard unlike expansion bolts which generally (Jim's hanger excepted) have sharp hangers so even if a climber threaded the bolts, the rope should not be cut. Need to consider weld failure as I have also seen accidents caused by failing welds. Not everyone manufactures hardware with poor welding but careful lower off design creates insurance against this if that were ever to be an issue. Shares the load across both bolts, has replaceable wear parts to ensure longterm integrity of the anchor bolts (rap rings / large chain / rams horns), can be clipped ideally from a stable stance using holds that are not going to break, hangs in such a way to avoid rub points and facilitate cleaning the pitch. Other points are same metal grades etc.
Regards,
Francis
Marmite in the post Jim : )))
I do exactly the same and check the nozzle and foil bag later once I've left the crag.
Additionally, I tag the first bolt and anchor because a) it's very fast if you have tags prepared but b) I know instances where climbers have loaded resin bolts and pulled them out after the installer left the area. One instance involved a vinylester resin (literally minutes after the equipper left a team moved in from an adjacent sector on abseil, clipped into one of the bolts and pulled it straight out) and the other a pure epoxy, c) It is a clear way of identifying that a first ascent is yet to be made and to please hold off climbing the route for now.
Granted the faster gelling and curing times of non epoxy resins almost certainly preclude the above from happening to anything but epoxy equipped routes however my preference is to build insurance in at all stages regardless of what resin system I'm using.
Some areas globally in which I've equipped are not suitable for using anything other than an epoxy so tagging is standard practice amongst teams in those regions. Recognise this is perhaps not so relevant to James in his case.
The points made regarding RE500 are in the context of my use of it in the UK, Europe, Asia and Australia however the cost alone is an immediate barrier to most people thinking of using it. I can source a 500ml foil pack for around GBP 15-16 which I believe is approximately 50% cheaper than UK walk in prices.
Granted it wont work if you have a detached block and want to stick that back onto the wall due to the gel time but for typical weak hold reinforcement it works very well and can penetrate thin cracks due to the viscosity.
Epoxies are stronger, have very good durability longterm but crucially for someone who will be getting to grips with the whole gluing process, an advantage due to the slower gel time. The injection process is crucial to ensuring a sound placement so not something to be rushed. Most of us on this thread I asume to have placed a significant quantity of resin bolts so will have a slick routine and therefore unfazed by a resin that gels within 10 minutes. I've seen relatively experienced equippers who being ok with an epoxy then make a complete hash of using a faster gelling resin because the accelerated gel time catches them off guard.
James,
Having bolted on slate, I agree with previous posts about using deeper than normal bolts and Jim's would be a good choice in that regard.
For lower offs I follow these basic principles;
Constructed such that no single component can damage the rope or cut it, has no single component that if it failed would cause a fatality - I can cite examples where climbers have threaded lower offs completely incorrectly then find themselves in hospital 2 days later. Resin bolted lower offs excel in this regard unlike expansion bolts which generally (Jim's hanger excepted) have sharp hangers so even if a climber threaded the bolts, the rope should not be cut. Need to consider weld failure as I have also seen accidents caused by failing welds. Not everyone manufactures hardware with poor welding but careful lower off design creates insurance against this if that were ever to be an issue. Shares the load across both bolts, has replaceable wear parts to ensure longterm integrity of the anchor bolts (rap rings / large chain / rams horns), can be clipped ideally from a stable stance using holds that are not going to break, hangs in such a way to avoid rub points and facilitate cleaning the pitch. Other points are same metal grades etc.
Regards,
Francis
Post edited at 02:59
In reply to james mann:
I would also make your choice of lower off flexible to suit the potential user group.
It obviously costs more to equip a lower off with captive rings or a chain set so I would save them for climbs that are likely to see a lot of traffic especially from top toppers. Generally less steep routes in the 5 & 6 grade will see this kind of traffic and it is prudent to protect the fixings from the punters that will top rope directly into the eye of the bolt.
Steepers and harder climbs that don't see that much traffic or are used by more experienced and educated climbers that top rope of their own gear need only be equipped with a threadable bolt head/hanger.
Also you need to bare in mind the sensitivities of the location. How imprests is the land owner or the public going to be if you litter the crag in chunky chain sets.
Enjoy
I would also make your choice of lower off flexible to suit the potential user group.
It obviously costs more to equip a lower off with captive rings or a chain set so I would save them for climbs that are likely to see a lot of traffic especially from top toppers. Generally less steep routes in the 5 & 6 grade will see this kind of traffic and it is prudent to protect the fixings from the punters that will top rope directly into the eye of the bolt.
Steepers and harder climbs that don't see that much traffic or are used by more experienced and educated climbers that top rope of their own gear need only be equipped with a threadable bolt head/hanger.
Also you need to bare in mind the sensitivities of the location. How imprests is the land owner or the public going to be if you litter the crag in chunky chain sets.
Enjoy
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...