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At risk of re opening an old debate, am I the only hill goer who is increasingly irritated by the number of poorly controlled dogs I regularly encounter on the fells? Time and again I seem to be leapt at, leaned on or snarled at by dogs off their lead and clearly not under proper control. I write as a long standing dog owner( though sadly no longer) and someone who is generally sympathetic to the notion of responsible dog ownership. It was thrown into particularly sharp relief last Saturday. My wife and I had set out from Wasdale Head for a day in the snow, when she slipped and unfortunately broke her wrist in her fall. In the minutes that followed, as I sorted out her and her belongings, we were caught up by two following parties, the first with one dog, the second with two, all off their leads. All three dogs in turn came and made a nuisance of themselves while their owners stood a few yards away, deep in conversation and seemingly oblivious to what their animals were up to. Only when I remonstrated with them did they make any attempt to restrain the beasts and they were, in every case unsuccessful. Despite my wife's obvious distress no apology or offer of help was forthcoming. There were sheep not far away and the owners clearly had no effective control at all. I know it has been said a thousand times before, but, by all means enjoy the company of your dog on the fells, but only if you have it fully and properly under control; and in most cases that means on a lead. Fortunately we are reasonably robust and unafraid of dogs, but why should anyone be subject to the unpredictable and sometimes unpleasant behaviour of your dog just for want of a little considerate control? I would add that I see increasing evidence of dogs being taken onto the sort of steeper and more technical ground where they constitute a serious danger to their owners and other hill users. I still have photos of a group whose dogs nearly knocked several people off Sharp Edge a few winters ago. John Rowlands.
Post edited at 17:29
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In reply to John R:
Well said.
A couple of years ago a climbing partner was just about to follow me up a climb, when a dog ran up and jumped up at her. While I am sure the dog only had friendly intentions, my partner who is very wary with dogs, did not know anything about the dogs presence until it jumped up at her from behind, she was totally spooked.
The dogs owner, who got a real mouthful of abuse from me, was round the corner soloing and had no knowledge of the dogs whereabouts.
I like dogs, I like to see them running free, but keep them in sight and under control.
John
Well said.
A couple of years ago a climbing partner was just about to follow me up a climb, when a dog ran up and jumped up at her. While I am sure the dog only had friendly intentions, my partner who is very wary with dogs, did not know anything about the dogs presence until it jumped up at her from behind, she was totally spooked.
The dogs owner, who got a real mouthful of abuse from me, was round the corner soloing and had no knowledge of the dogs whereabouts.
I like dogs, I like to see them running free, but keep them in sight and under control.
John
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In reply to John R:
In my experience, dogs also tend to be a bit more excitable and uncontrollable in the snow
In my experience, dogs also tend to be a bit more excitable and uncontrollable in the snow
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In reply to John R:
I have been out walking with my young children and have on several occasions been monstered by dogs that have left my children terrified. I now routinely carry a walking pole to fend them off as previously it has proved difficult to kick them in the ribs or punch them on the nose.
I can't count the number of times i've heard "Oh it's ok he doesn't bite; he's just being friendly" as the dog leaps on my toddler and knocks him to the ground. "well I do and i'm not" is my response.
I can't stand aggressive bullying dogs. You have my sympathy.
James
I have been out walking with my young children and have on several occasions been monstered by dogs that have left my children terrified. I now routinely carry a walking pole to fend them off as previously it has proved difficult to kick them in the ribs or punch them on the nose.
I can't count the number of times i've heard "Oh it's ok he doesn't bite; he's just being friendly" as the dog leaps on my toddler and knocks him to the ground. "well I do and i'm not" is my response.
I can't stand aggressive bullying dogs. You have my sympathy.
James
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In reply to John R:
Several years ago a pair of cretins climbed central gully left hand on Great End. They had two dogs that tried to follow them, the dogs got to the bottom of the difficulties and were then left behind by their owners. One dog fell half the length of the gully and beyond. At least 300ft. The remaining dog was rescued by a couple of climbers who had to downclimb with the dog to get it to a safe position.
On this website it was claimed they were farm dogs and used to it!
Unbelievable..
Several years ago a pair of cretins climbed central gully left hand on Great End. They had two dogs that tried to follow them, the dogs got to the bottom of the difficulties and were then left behind by their owners. One dog fell half the length of the gully and beyond. At least 300ft. The remaining dog was rescued by a couple of climbers who had to downclimb with the dog to get it to a safe position.
On this website it was claimed they were farm dogs and used to it!
Unbelievable..
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In reply to John R:
I feel your pain, as did my dog on this occasion.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=623643
I feel your pain, as did my dog on this occasion.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=623643
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In reply to John R:
It's not just on the hills. On one of my regular cycle routes I pass a house which has a sign on the gate saying "Dangerous dogs" or something similar. One of them is a rough haired terrier which manages to get out via a hole in the hedge and chases me. It hasn't actually bitten me yet, but if it does it will end up impaled on the fortress like iron railings on the gate with a little notice round its neck "It's not so dangerous now is it."
I am not a dog owner, but I don't mind well controlled ones. However, I really don't want your dog jumping up on me/trying to eat my sandwiches/slavering all over me.
It's not just on the hills. On one of my regular cycle routes I pass a house which has a sign on the gate saying "Dangerous dogs" or something similar. One of them is a rough haired terrier which manages to get out via a hole in the hedge and chases me. It hasn't actually bitten me yet, but if it does it will end up impaled on the fortress like iron railings on the gate with a little notice round its neck "It's not so dangerous now is it."
I am not a dog owner, but I don't mind well controlled ones. However, I really don't want your dog jumping up on me/trying to eat my sandwiches/slavering all over me.
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In reply to John R:
Are we really ranting about this - I agree its a proper first world problem but there are far worse things to be 'increasing irritated' about - My Jack Russell thinks I'm a cock for just responding although he is a very poorly trained.
As for worrying about the 'beasts' that scare sheep I wouldn't, sheep have far worse things to come such as days in a lorry with no food or water before slaughter.
As for steep ground - If a dog can scare you I'd stick to less complicated walks.
On a serious note I hope your wife is OK.
Are we really ranting about this - I agree its a proper first world problem but there are far worse things to be 'increasing irritated' about - My Jack Russell thinks I'm a cock for just responding although he is a very poorly trained.
As for worrying about the 'beasts' that scare sheep I wouldn't, sheep have far worse things to come such as days in a lorry with no food or water before slaughter.
As for steep ground - If a dog can scare you I'd stick to less complicated walks.
On a serious note I hope your wife is OK.
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In reply to EdTheDuck:
Hey, is that BirdieNumNum in disguise, still trying to beat that elusive most dislikes record?
Hey, is that BirdieNumNum in disguise, still trying to beat that elusive most dislikes record?
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In reply to EdTheDuck:
nice trolling! you almost had me believing that you actually meant that for a minute...
nice trolling! you almost had me believing that you actually meant that for a minute...
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In reply to John R:
my job involves me visiting people in their homes on a daily basis and what some people find acceptable behaviour from their dogs is at times astonishing.
I've been bitten , clawed and had my leg shagged more times than I care to remember.
once while kneeling down working at skirting board level I had a German shepherd try to do it doggy style on me while the owner laughed and thought the whole thing was very amusing. (i suppose to an onlooker. it may well have been).
But the most common one is that statement you dread " oh he just barks a lot and looks fierce but he's really friendly when you get to know him." AYE RIGHT.
my job involves me visiting people in their homes on a daily basis and what some people find acceptable behaviour from their dogs is at times astonishing.
I've been bitten , clawed and had my leg shagged more times than I care to remember.
once while kneeling down working at skirting board level I had a German shepherd try to do it doggy style on me while the owner laughed and thought the whole thing was very amusing. (i suppose to an onlooker. it may well have been).
But the most common one is that statement you dread " oh he just barks a lot and looks fierce but he's really friendly when you get to know him." AYE RIGHT.
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In reply to John R:
http://www.bite-back.net/
It's a shame that it comes to it but a spray can of bite back and a pocket knife are often worth carrying. I live right next to the woods and run there early morning or evenings, when it's dark a lot of owners of uncontrollable dogs think it's a great time to let their dogs off the leads because no one's around. The last one stalked up to me growling and circling me, apparently it was my fault because he didn't like torches and I had one on. Not quite sure what the owner expected to find in the woods at night but quite easily could have been a kid playing with his torch. I shouted to him as the dog was approching me to get it under control but he didn't seem interested. There've been countless other incidents.
I love dogs and have grown up with them all my life but I'm under no illusions of how brutally they can rip you to shreds and you have to protect yourself. The trouble is there's a lot of townies out there who want a cuddly pooch but have no idea how to train it and cuddly at home or not, it's a pack animal capable of ripping humans to pieces if it so chooses. If you can't control it to heel 100% of the time it needs to be on a lead 100% of the time.
I remember hearing a report on R4, they were talking to a dog handler who basically said if a dog is in attack mode and it gets hold of you your only chance is to kill it, all the stories of kicking it in the balls etc. are rubbish and they'll just keep ripping you apart till one of you is dead. If you can get the bite back spray aimed well it'll disable the dog in a non harmful way for 10 mins or so giving you time to run away. If you miss then it's either you or the pooch.
http://www.bite-back.net/
It's a shame that it comes to it but a spray can of bite back and a pocket knife are often worth carrying. I live right next to the woods and run there early morning or evenings, when it's dark a lot of owners of uncontrollable dogs think it's a great time to let their dogs off the leads because no one's around. The last one stalked up to me growling and circling me, apparently it was my fault because he didn't like torches and I had one on. Not quite sure what the owner expected to find in the woods at night but quite easily could have been a kid playing with his torch. I shouted to him as the dog was approching me to get it under control but he didn't seem interested. There've been countless other incidents.
I love dogs and have grown up with them all my life but I'm under no illusions of how brutally they can rip you to shreds and you have to protect yourself. The trouble is there's a lot of townies out there who want a cuddly pooch but have no idea how to train it and cuddly at home or not, it's a pack animal capable of ripping humans to pieces if it so chooses. If you can't control it to heel 100% of the time it needs to be on a lead 100% of the time.
I remember hearing a report on R4, they were talking to a dog handler who basically said if a dog is in attack mode and it gets hold of you your only chance is to kill it, all the stories of kicking it in the balls etc. are rubbish and they'll just keep ripping you apart till one of you is dead. If you can get the bite back spray aimed well it'll disable the dog in a non harmful way for 10 mins or so giving you time to run away. If you miss then it's either you or the pooch.
Post edited at 08:16
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In reply to wilkesley:
No, it's not. Two Sundays ago I was running in the local park when a dog leapt up from behind me and knocked me over. Nasty cut on the knee. Was the owner bothered....no: "oh, he's a bit excitable....just trying to join in with you". Felt like kicking him (the owner) in the balls and saying "oh, I'm in a bit of pain. Just trying to let you join in with me". Sadly I didn't.
> It's not just on the hills.
No, it's not. Two Sundays ago I was running in the local park when a dog leapt up from behind me and knocked me over. Nasty cut on the knee. Was the owner bothered....no: "oh, he's a bit excitable....just trying to join in with you". Felt like kicking him (the owner) in the balls and saying "oh, I'm in a bit of pain. Just trying to let you join in with me". Sadly I didn't.
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In reply to James Edwards:
That's no way to treat a child!
> I have been out walking with my young children and have on several occasions been monstered by dogs that have left my children terrified. I now routinely carry a walking pole to fend them off as previously it has proved difficult to kick them in the ribs or punch them on the nose.
That's no way to treat a child!
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In reply to Rob Naylor:
Did you report this to the police?
> No, it's not. Two Sundays ago I was running in the local park when a dog leapt up from behind me and knocked me over. Nasty cut on the knee. Was the owner bothered....no: "oh, he's a bit excitable....just trying to join in with you". Felt like kicking him (the owner) in the balls and saying "oh, I'm in a bit of pain. Just trying to let you join in with me". Sadly I didn't.
Did you report this to the police?
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In reply to John R:
I agree with you regarding badly behaved owners with no control over their dogs (an increasing problem) and a complete disregard for other people around them on their dog walk
However I disagree that taking dogs on steeper ground is putting myself (as a dog owner) and others in danger. If I want to take my dog over steeper terrain that is my worry as to do how do do it safely, for myself and also for others out at the same time.
From a dog owners point of view, and as a vet, people just do not have a clue on how to train a dog, nor do they really have any inclination to. I think people seriously underestimate how hard it can be to train a dog. It never ceases to amaze me how often people think its so wonderful that I can walk my dogs off lead and even more amazingly, I am able to call them back. With the rapidly increasing numbers of dogs in this country, the problem is only going to get worse.
EDIT: Useful to know that any dog that injures someone, or makes you worried they might injure you are considered out of control, and worth reporting. Easier said than done however.
https://www.gov.uk/control-dog-public/overview
> I would add that I see increasing evidence of dogs being taken onto the sort of steeper and more technical ground where they constitute a serious danger to their owners and other hill users.
I agree with you regarding badly behaved owners with no control over their dogs (an increasing problem) and a complete disregard for other people around them on their dog walk
However I disagree that taking dogs on steeper ground is putting myself (as a dog owner) and others in danger. If I want to take my dog over steeper terrain that is my worry as to do how do do it safely, for myself and also for others out at the same time.
From a dog owners point of view, and as a vet, people just do not have a clue on how to train a dog, nor do they really have any inclination to. I think people seriously underestimate how hard it can be to train a dog. It never ceases to amaze me how often people think its so wonderful that I can walk my dogs off lead and even more amazingly, I am able to call them back. With the rapidly increasing numbers of dogs in this country, the problem is only going to get worse.
EDIT: Useful to know that any dog that injures someone, or makes you worried they might injure you are considered out of control, and worth reporting. Easier said than done however.
https://www.gov.uk/control-dog-public/overview
Post edited at 11:20
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In reply to John R:
A dog once jumped at me whilst growling. Once it's owner ran over the conversation went like this...
Owner: Oh sorry it's men!
Me: No it's not it's your dog.
Owner: I mean men make her aggressive.
Me: Yes but the problem lies with you and your dog not the entire male sex.
A dog once jumped at me whilst growling. Once it's owner ran over the conversation went like this...
Owner: Oh sorry it's men!
Me: No it's not it's your dog.
Owner: I mean men make her aggressive.
Me: Yes but the problem lies with you and your dog not the entire male sex.
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Does anyone know where you stand legally if a dog bites/attacks you, and you defend youself and injure/maim/kill the dog with whatever happens to be around you, ie walking pole/stick/ice axe/hands etc?
What about the same, but you are defending someone else, either a child or another adult?
What about if the dog runs at you aggressively and you defend youself *before* it has actually bitten you, but you believed it was about to and your health (or another child/adult) was in danger?
These are all questions that I wonder about when a dog runs up to me barking/growling, and I'm wondering at what point I'll kick it in the head. Never had to so far, but I'm sure one day it might happen and I'd like to know where I stand legally.
What about the same, but you are defending someone else, either a child or another adult?
What about if the dog runs at you aggressively and you defend youself *before* it has actually bitten you, but you believed it was about to and your health (or another child/adult) was in danger?
These are all questions that I wonder about when a dog runs up to me barking/growling, and I'm wondering at what point I'll kick it in the head. Never had to so far, but I'm sure one day it might happen and I'd like to know where I stand legally.
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In reply to NottsRich:
I would be interested to hear informed opinion on that as well. Twice I have used gentle physical persuasion with someone else's uncontrolled dog in person - once to save my lunch and once to save my shopping.
Given the reaction of both owners to me gently but firmly putting the dog away from me I would not want to see their reaction to me killing their dog. I suspect badly wounding or killing a dog in self defence may well lead to either receiving a beating from its owner or facing assault/manslaughter charges over your self defence against the owner.
Top tip - if an out of control dog's owner tells you off for telling the dog "down" in an assertive voice ("don't you talk to my dog like that"), asking them "would you prefer I kicked it down instead?" does not diffuse the situation.
Living in an area with many bad dog owners has pushed me to the point where I want anyone taking a dog into a public area to legally have to have passed an obedience test with that particular dog. Unworkable and unfair against good dog owners, I know. It is however getting worse, and there are ever more people and there is ever less amenity land.
I would be interested to hear informed opinion on that as well. Twice I have used gentle physical persuasion with someone else's uncontrolled dog in person - once to save my lunch and once to save my shopping.
Given the reaction of both owners to me gently but firmly putting the dog away from me I would not want to see their reaction to me killing their dog. I suspect badly wounding or killing a dog in self defence may well lead to either receiving a beating from its owner or facing assault/manslaughter charges over your self defence against the owner.
Top tip - if an out of control dog's owner tells you off for telling the dog "down" in an assertive voice ("don't you talk to my dog like that"), asking them "would you prefer I kicked it down instead?" does not diffuse the situation.
Living in an area with many bad dog owners has pushed me to the point where I want anyone taking a dog into a public area to legally have to have passed an obedience test with that particular dog. Unworkable and unfair against good dog owners, I know. It is however getting worse, and there are ever more people and there is ever less amenity land.
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In reply to wintertree:
Basically it is against the law to have an out of control dog in a public place and even if the dog makes someone nervous that it will bite them, classifies as "out of control". (https://www.gov.uk/control-dog-public/overview)
If a dog is "attacking" you then you can defend yourself with force against the dog. The legal grey area would be if the dog comes up to you aggressively (but doesn't bite you) and you kick it and cause an injury to said dog (as an act of self defence against the dog). Then it becomes the owners word vs your word scenario i.e. can you prove it wwas aggressive before you lashed out at it?? Kicking a dog that is sniffing your sandwich or shopping would be hard to defend so whilst undoubtedly annoying,it is unlikely to result in harm to you (unless it really has come up to you aggressively I guess and not just sniffing on the hunt for food).
Its even difficult for farmers to shoot dogs to protect their livestock - the misconception is that a dog chasing sheep can get shot. Actually the law protects the dog more than that. The dog has to cause sustained suffering and physical harm for the farmer to legally be allowed to shoot the dog. If it just startles the sheep in a mini chase then gives up and then is shot, the farmer would legally be in the wrong (owner would be partially liable also for lack of control, but if dog was shot dead could take a case out against the farmer). Also even if the dog causes serious physical harm to the sheep and/or death, if the farmer doesn't shoot the dog cleanly (i.e. takes more than one shot to kill it) then the dog owner may take the farmer to court. However dog owner would also be liable to some extent as dog has physically caused harm to sheep.
If a dog comes up to you barking and growling then the last thing I'd advise doing is kicking it in the head - as if it wasn't going to bite you initially it probably will in that scenario! Ideally in those scenarios you'd want to get the owners details (legally should be on collar!!) and report them for having an out of control dog. How this is to happen in reality I do not know.
Basically it is against the law to have an out of control dog in a public place and even if the dog makes someone nervous that it will bite them, classifies as "out of control". (https://www.gov.uk/control-dog-public/overview)
If a dog is "attacking" you then you can defend yourself with force against the dog. The legal grey area would be if the dog comes up to you aggressively (but doesn't bite you) and you kick it and cause an injury to said dog (as an act of self defence against the dog). Then it becomes the owners word vs your word scenario i.e. can you prove it wwas aggressive before you lashed out at it?? Kicking a dog that is sniffing your sandwich or shopping would be hard to defend so whilst undoubtedly annoying,it is unlikely to result in harm to you (unless it really has come up to you aggressively I guess and not just sniffing on the hunt for food).
Its even difficult for farmers to shoot dogs to protect their livestock - the misconception is that a dog chasing sheep can get shot. Actually the law protects the dog more than that. The dog has to cause sustained suffering and physical harm for the farmer to legally be allowed to shoot the dog. If it just startles the sheep in a mini chase then gives up and then is shot, the farmer would legally be in the wrong (owner would be partially liable also for lack of control, but if dog was shot dead could take a case out against the farmer). Also even if the dog causes serious physical harm to the sheep and/or death, if the farmer doesn't shoot the dog cleanly (i.e. takes more than one shot to kill it) then the dog owner may take the farmer to court. However dog owner would also be liable to some extent as dog has physically caused harm to sheep.
If a dog comes up to you barking and growling then the last thing I'd advise doing is kicking it in the head - as if it wasn't going to bite you initially it probably will in that scenario! Ideally in those scenarios you'd want to get the owners details (legally should be on collar!!) and report them for having an out of control dog. How this is to happen in reality I do not know.
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In reply to John R:
If you can't control it to heel 100% of the time it needs to be on a lead 100% of the time.
I secound this statement. Been trying not to get involved but this sums it up nicely.
I keep hunting dogs and guard dogs myself. I love dogs. But the above is why my dogs go On leads.
If you can't control it to heel 100% of the time it needs to be on a lead 100% of the time.
I secound this statement. Been trying not to get involved but this sums it up nicely.
I keep hunting dogs and guard dogs myself. I love dogs. But the above is why my dogs go On leads.
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In reply to James Edwards:
It's the owners I can't stand. Don't blame the dog.
> I can't stand aggressive bullying dogs.
It's the owners I can't stand. Don't blame the dog.
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In reply to John R:
Frustrating isn't it?
I work on the basis that nothing I do should impede on someone else's quiet enjoyment of the space we are sharing. That equilibrium could be damaged by music, litter, noise, dogs etc...
I love letting my dog run off the lead when go running or walking. He always stays close and has good recall. As soon as I see other people or animals he is put on the lead. I am confident that he would behave appropriately 90% of the time if I left him off the lead but why take the risk for such minimal inconvenience for me. He is MY responsibility. His behaviour is for me to manage.
On literally every run I have now I see a group of walkers coming towards me with their dogs of the lead. I stop and put my own, they must notice this. I then continue to run so that I am on the very edge of the path and my dog is running through the brush. What do their dogs do? Run over, dance about, jump up, start barking, try to start a game or fight, who knows. This normally involves me needing to stop, unravel my dog who has now hidden behind me because he is restricted and defensive because he is on a lead.
Typical response from walkers?
1. Nothing. Just carry on walking three abreast and chatting
2. Oh, he only does that because yours is on a lead. (I hate that one)
3. He gets defensive ever since he was attacked by another dog (really? Well if you know that why the feck is it running about off the lead)
I have had some unpleasant discourse now with various walkers which has not made their walk any more pleasant and has certainly not assisted the pleasure I like to gain from my run.
And breath.
Frustrating isn't it?
I work on the basis that nothing I do should impede on someone else's quiet enjoyment of the space we are sharing. That equilibrium could be damaged by music, litter, noise, dogs etc...
I love letting my dog run off the lead when go running or walking. He always stays close and has good recall. As soon as I see other people or animals he is put on the lead. I am confident that he would behave appropriately 90% of the time if I left him off the lead but why take the risk for such minimal inconvenience for me. He is MY responsibility. His behaviour is for me to manage.
On literally every run I have now I see a group of walkers coming towards me with their dogs of the lead. I stop and put my own, they must notice this. I then continue to run so that I am on the very edge of the path and my dog is running through the brush. What do their dogs do? Run over, dance about, jump up, start barking, try to start a game or fight, who knows. This normally involves me needing to stop, unravel my dog who has now hidden behind me because he is restricted and defensive because he is on a lead.
Typical response from walkers?
1. Nothing. Just carry on walking three abreast and chatting
2. Oh, he only does that because yours is on a lead. (I hate that one)
3. He gets defensive ever since he was attacked by another dog (really? Well if you know that why the feck is it running about off the lead)
I have had some unpleasant discourse now with various walkers which has not made their walk any more pleasant and has certainly not assisted the pleasure I like to gain from my run.
And breath.
Post edited at 13:45
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In reply to John R:
A puppy bull mastiff 'recently attacked my westie dog. The mastiff is only 1 year old but it's a big powerfully animal weighing about 4 stone. On that occasion I had to get hold the dogs collar and pull it off my westie which was pinned to the ground. I looked up to see the owner disinterested and walking away. The mastiff is never on the lead, is untrained and the owner does not bother to recall. Last Monday we were on the same walk when the mastiff came towards again . I put my dog on the lead and asked the owner to put his on a lead which he didn't. Sure enough the mastiff attacked my dog again. I tried to intervene and was knocked to the floor injuring my back and left knee in the process. As I stood up the owner was just staring at me, no words were said, no apologies. I was so enraged I ended shouting in his face and gave him a dig. Fortunately no injuries have been suffered by my westie. I have since avoided the route and go other places. Other people have since told me that the dog has since been muzzled and is occasionally on the lead. Time will tell
A puppy bull mastiff 'recently attacked my westie dog. The mastiff is only 1 year old but it's a big powerfully animal weighing about 4 stone. On that occasion I had to get hold the dogs collar and pull it off my westie which was pinned to the ground. I looked up to see the owner disinterested and walking away. The mastiff is never on the lead, is untrained and the owner does not bother to recall. Last Monday we were on the same walk when the mastiff came towards again . I put my dog on the lead and asked the owner to put his on a lead which he didn't. Sure enough the mastiff attacked my dog again. I tried to intervene and was knocked to the floor injuring my back and left knee in the process. As I stood up the owner was just staring at me, no words were said, no apologies. I was so enraged I ended shouting in his face and gave him a dig. Fortunately no injuries have been suffered by my westie. I have since avoided the route and go other places. Other people have since told me that the dog has since been muzzled and is occasionally on the lead. Time will tell
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In reply to BedRock:
Depends. I am extremely sick and tired of being cornered and growled at by loose dogs, something that happens to me once or twice per month on my cycle path. I have a right to use public spaces without being threatened, and will claim that right with physical force if needs be. If a dog is threatening me I will therefore weigh whether I fancy my chances for giving it the boot. Bike locks also make efficient weapons.
Usually a brief kick or swing towards the head is enough, most dogs actually run away even before. Probably means that they are in fact scared of cyclists or joggers (as claimed by their owners) but then they should be muzzled or at least kept on a leash in public.
CB
> If a dog comes up to you barking and growling then the last thing I'd advise doing is kicking it in the head - as if it wasn't going to bite you initially it probably will in that scenario!
Depends. I am extremely sick and tired of being cornered and growled at by loose dogs, something that happens to me once or twice per month on my cycle path. I have a right to use public spaces without being threatened, and will claim that right with physical force if needs be. If a dog is threatening me I will therefore weigh whether I fancy my chances for giving it the boot. Bike locks also make efficient weapons.
Usually a brief kick or swing towards the head is enough, most dogs actually run away even before. Probably means that they are in fact scared of cyclists or joggers (as claimed by their owners) but then they should be muzzled or at least kept on a leash in public.
CB
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In reply to John R:
Was out MTB riding in the Peak a few months ago and a rider ahead of us had his bike attacked by some mastiff type thing that fully ripped his front tire. An altercation followed!! and the dog owner coughed up some cash for the tire.
It was kind of lucky for us that he was ahead of us as we were riding with our two young lads and it could have been more than the tire the dog went if our lads bikes had been past first.
Again, out riding on Sunday with our lads and massive dog charges over and jumps up at me. Owner, sort of laughing: "sorry, he's young and playful"..... words were said.
Was out MTB riding in the Peak a few months ago and a rider ahead of us had his bike attacked by some mastiff type thing that fully ripped his front tire. An altercation followed!! and the dog owner coughed up some cash for the tire.
It was kind of lucky for us that he was ahead of us as we were riding with our two young lads and it could have been more than the tire the dog went if our lads bikes had been past first.
Again, out riding on Sunday with our lads and massive dog charges over and jumps up at me. Owner, sort of laughing: "sorry, he's young and playful"..... words were said.
Post edited at 14:13
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In reply to snoopdawg:
Report it to the police?
> Sure enough the mastiff attacked my dog again. I tried to intervene and was knocked to the floor injuring my back and left knee in the process.
Report it to the police?
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In reply to cb294:
You're right - *most* dogs are barking and growling with a fear aggression i.e. they are scared of you coming towards them and use their best defence to tell you to go away i.e bark/growl. If it lunges towards you/doesn't move out of the way, yes go ahead swipe/hit the dog/protect yourself. If it merely runs away as you near it, aiming to hit it, or as you put it "claiming that right with physical force" makes you in my eyes as bad as the owners allowing their dogs to be loose and out of control in the first place.
You're right - *most* dogs are barking and growling with a fear aggression i.e. they are scared of you coming towards them and use their best defence to tell you to go away i.e bark/growl. If it lunges towards you/doesn't move out of the way, yes go ahead swipe/hit the dog/protect yourself. If it merely runs away as you near it, aiming to hit it, or as you put it "claiming that right with physical force" makes you in my eyes as bad as the owners allowing their dogs to be loose and out of control in the first place.
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Really wish Velo-Dog was still around.
In reply to James Edwards:
Hi James, I agreed wholeheartedly.
I wonder what kind of twunt could disagree enough with your statement to press the dislike button! For once I am not inclined to see how this problem can be joked about or trolled about. Having been bitten by "out-of-control" aggressive dogs on more than one occasion (thankfully not seriously) I fail to understand how anyone can speak even remotely sympathetically about a dangerous dog.
Any dog that attacks a human or livestock needs to be destroyed IMHO. Human life is more important than animal life. End of.
M
Hi James, I agreed wholeheartedly.
I wonder what kind of twunt could disagree enough with your statement to press the dislike button! For once I am not inclined to see how this problem can be joked about or trolled about. Having been bitten by "out-of-control" aggressive dogs on more than one occasion (thankfully not seriously) I fail to understand how anyone can speak even remotely sympathetically about a dangerous dog.
Any dog that attacks a human or livestock needs to be destroyed IMHO. Human life is more important than animal life. End of.
M
Post edited at 18:16
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In reply to John R:
Totally agree. I get this when out running all the time. Drives me mad. Best approach I find is to keep running straight through the dog if possible. At its best this resulted in me knocking one dog out as my knee connected with its jaw. At worst I stepped on ones paw recently and took a tumble. Cue the 'oh he doesn't mean it' from the owner...
Totally agree. I get this when out running all the time. Drives me mad. Best approach I find is to keep running straight through the dog if possible. At its best this resulted in me knocking one dog out as my knee connected with its jaw. At worst I stepped on ones paw recently and took a tumble. Cue the 'oh he doesn't mean it' from the owner...
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In reply to BedRock:
Guess we will have to disagree then. Letting ones dog growl at a cyclist or runner or even allowing it corner them amounts to aggression with a weapon. It poses a great risk to ones health (dog bites are nasty wounds that heal badly, even if the dog is small). I will therefore choose the form of defence or deterrence I judge to be most effective. If I am stopped by a snarling dog on the cycle track, aiming a swing with the bike lock at the dog´s head, or rushing the dog and getting a boot in first often seems the safest option for me, in any case better than having to deal with the owner at the same time
Anyway, in most such cases the dog will flee rather than bite, best outcome for both (and the owner!).
CB
Guess we will have to disagree then. Letting ones dog growl at a cyclist or runner or even allowing it corner them amounts to aggression with a weapon. It poses a great risk to ones health (dog bites are nasty wounds that heal badly, even if the dog is small). I will therefore choose the form of defence or deterrence I judge to be most effective. If I am stopped by a snarling dog on the cycle track, aiming a swing with the bike lock at the dog´s head, or rushing the dog and getting a boot in first often seems the safest option for me, in any case better than having to deal with the owner at the same time
Anyway, in most such cases the dog will flee rather than bite, best outcome for both (and the owner!).
CB
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In reply to cb294:
I was disagreeing to you aiming to hit a dog that was running away (I may have misunderstood your post). I have no qualms about anyone protecting themselves from a dog that has them cornered/or is behaving in a threatening way.
The sad thing about all this is that its not actually the dogs fault, and I wish there was just some way of encouraging responsible pet ownership. Most dogs are barking/growling as a fear aggression. They then get hit by the stranger they've barked at/nipped etc. This then only re-establishes the message to the dog they should be scared of strangers/bikes etc. If only most owners were bright enough to realise the problem, and do something about it, before the dog actually causes harm to someone.
I was disagreeing to you aiming to hit a dog that was running away (I may have misunderstood your post). I have no qualms about anyone protecting themselves from a dog that has them cornered/or is behaving in a threatening way.
The sad thing about all this is that its not actually the dogs fault, and I wish there was just some way of encouraging responsible pet ownership. Most dogs are barking/growling as a fear aggression. They then get hit by the stranger they've barked at/nipped etc. This then only re-establishes the message to the dog they should be scared of strangers/bikes etc. If only most owners were bright enough to realise the problem, and do something about it, before the dog actually causes harm to someone.
Post edited at 18:45
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"Human life is more important than animal life. End of."
Really?? Alot of sensible comments being said above but that is utter pish.
Really?? Alot of sensible comments being said above but that is utter pish.
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In reply to Andrew Holden:
Err, in the context of out of control dogs, not in my opinion.
> "Human life is more important than animal life. End of."
> " but that is utter pish"
Err, in the context of out of control dogs, not in my opinion.
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In reply to BedRock:
OK, no worries. I totally agree with your points about the responsibility of the owners and the counterproductive effect on dog behaviour that such confrontations have. Maybe the owners can learn something, but I don´t hold my hopes high.
CB
OK, no worries. I totally agree with your points about the responsibility of the owners and the counterproductive effect on dog behaviour that such confrontations have. Maybe the owners can learn something, but I don´t hold my hopes high.
CB
In reply to John Ww:
Yes in the context of out of control dogs I totally agree but thats not what it says.
Yes in the context of out of control dogs I totally agree but thats not what it says.
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In reply to cb294:
if half the owners of these dogs had a brain cell between them I doubt we'd have this thread!
if half the owners of these dogs had a brain cell between them I doubt we'd have this thread!
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In reply to BedRock:
and therein lies the problem
as owners are less prepared to chastise their dogs, only rewarding good behaviour, the dogs in question are less aware of right and wrong. Or rather what is socially acceptable amongst us humans and what is not. This just breeds misunderstanding between owner and dog. I've got a failed sheepdog, a collie who used to nip people, collies nip at sheep to keep them under control.
He doesn't do it any more, as he got a smack every time he did. Its really very simple and dogs like things simple. He also walks to heel when asked and doesn't jump up at people, I've managed this by training with reward. Both methods have their place in dog training but I come across many people who are not prepared to accept it. Badly behaved dogs whether loose or not are almost always a result of lack of structured training and a lack of consistency within this training. Dogs think in black and white, they don't get the nuances of human behaviour. Just telling your dog not to do something is not enough, you need to physically intervene to stop bad behaviour and show the dog that you are leader of the pack, not them.
> if half the owners of these dogs had a brain cell between them I doubt we'd have this thread!
and therein lies the problem
as owners are less prepared to chastise their dogs, only rewarding good behaviour, the dogs in question are less aware of right and wrong. Or rather what is socially acceptable amongst us humans and what is not. This just breeds misunderstanding between owner and dog. I've got a failed sheepdog, a collie who used to nip people, collies nip at sheep to keep them under control.
He doesn't do it any more, as he got a smack every time he did. Its really very simple and dogs like things simple. He also walks to heel when asked and doesn't jump up at people, I've managed this by training with reward. Both methods have their place in dog training but I come across many people who are not prepared to accept it. Badly behaved dogs whether loose or not are almost always a result of lack of structured training and a lack of consistency within this training. Dogs think in black and white, they don't get the nuances of human behaviour. Just telling your dog not to do something is not enough, you need to physically intervene to stop bad behaviour and show the dog that you are leader of the pack, not them.
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In reply to John Ww:
Cheers! Maybe I should have clarified that this is the context in which I meant the comment! I am surprised that some folk misunderstood me to such an extent.
> Err, in the context of out of control dogs, not in my opinion.
Cheers! Maybe I should have clarified that this is the context in which I meant the comment! I am surprised that some folk misunderstood me to such an extent.
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In reply to John R:
I bought a pistol recently to deal with this situation. Shoot the dog and knee cap the owner.
I bought a pistol recently to deal with this situation. Shoot the dog and knee cap the owner.
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In reply to snoopdawg:
Fair enough. I guess it's hard to restrain yourself and not have a jab at them if they react like a total pillock after their dog causes you problems.
Fair enough. I guess it's hard to restrain yourself and not have a jab at them if they react like a total pillock after their dog causes you problems.
In reply to John R:
My aunt used to have a problem with loose dogs and their irresponsible owners when she went out for a stroll near her house.
So she got herself a cat and took that out with her on walks. The dogs suddenly left them both alone. Which meant she could enjoy her walks as much as she enjoys her knitting:
https://userscontent2.emaze.com/images/bdfe4e5a-db59-44ef-8ee0-66016077f137...
My aunt used to have a problem with loose dogs and their irresponsible owners when she went out for a stroll near her house.
So she got herself a cat and took that out with her on walks. The dogs suddenly left them both alone. Which meant she could enjoy her walks as much as she enjoys her knitting:
https://userscontent2.emaze.com/images/bdfe4e5a-db59-44ef-8ee0-66016077f137...
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In reply to John R:
I agree but my mine gripe is taking those dogs out in the hills in those ridiculous extender leads.
Whoever invented them is a complete pillock.
I regularly see people with them on grade one scrambles.
If you have your dog anywhere on he hills the dog should have a harness on rather than a collar and be on a relatively short piece of climbing rope in case rbe dog falls.
I agree but my mine gripe is taking those dogs out in the hills in those ridiculous extender leads.
Whoever invented them is a complete pillock.
I regularly see people with them on grade one scrambles.
If you have your dog anywhere on he hills the dog should have a harness on rather than a collar and be on a relatively short piece of climbing rope in case rbe dog falls.
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In reply to Chris Huntington:
You are missing the point. The purpose of extender leads is to allow you to walk on one side of the cycle path, and your dog on the other!
CB
You are missing the point. The purpose of extender leads is to allow you to walk on one side of the cycle path, and your dog on the other!
CB
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In reply to cb294:
Totally. I hate them!!!!!!!
I actually love dogs, the other reason I hate extenders is they aren't fair on the dog- it's impossible to teach a dog walk to heel with an extender lead.
Totally. I hate them!!!!!!!
I actually love dogs, the other reason I hate extenders is they aren't fair on the dog- it's impossible to teach a dog walk to heel with an extender lead.
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In reply to BedRock:
I speak as the owner of a large working, and well trained, German Shepherd Dog, you'd be surprised how many people still cross the street to avoid us, perhaps its me.
I understand the urge to defend ones self against a dog 'attack', but beware. As previously observed most, but not all, dogs aggression is a fear response! they fear you far more than you will fear them.
If a dog is going to attack you it will, though most dogs are unlikely to do this without provocation. If unsure don't try to outstare the dog, run away from it or wave your arms and legs about wildly, the dog may interpret this as aggression to them and react as they deem appropriate.
If you feel the need to physically interact with an attacking dog, my advise would be, do it swiftly and hard, there will only be one winner.
Generally if you ignore the dog it will ignore you. I know there is someone out there who has a differing experience.
I speak as the owner of a large working, and well trained, German Shepherd Dog, you'd be surprised how many people still cross the street to avoid us, perhaps its me.
I understand the urge to defend ones self against a dog 'attack', but beware. As previously observed most, but not all, dogs aggression is a fear response! they fear you far more than you will fear them.
If a dog is going to attack you it will, though most dogs are unlikely to do this without provocation. If unsure don't try to outstare the dog, run away from it or wave your arms and legs about wildly, the dog may interpret this as aggression to them and react as they deem appropriate.
If you feel the need to physically interact with an attacking dog, my advise would be, do it swiftly and hard, there will only be one winner.
Generally if you ignore the dog it will ignore you. I know there is someone out there who has a differing experience.
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In reply to John R:
Never mind on the hills, some dogs are rude anywhere. Once when in the lakes with a friend and his girlfriends dog, a Jack Russell/ f knows what, with a head like the dog in the Mask, we stopped for a pint at the Watwrmill. Me and this other lad were left outside minding the beast, safely in a full body harness and extendable lead, whilst our comrade went inside. 'Mind the dog and don't trust it' he said, to which we laughed.
On a table 20 ft away was a southern family with a retriever pleasantly enjoying the evening with a meal and a few pints.
Now this retriever made the mistake of barking at the Kraken, causing it to make a bolt for it. Fortunately it was checked and it lay, or so we thought, forlornly under the table awaiting it's 'master'. Next thing there was a flash of white and a retriever with the mutt attached to its flank, running amock. Pints and food went everywhere as we tried to catch the fecker. On closer inspection, it had slipped a full harness, adequately fastened. My mate returned and we fled....
Never mind on the hills, some dogs are rude anywhere. Once when in the lakes with a friend and his girlfriends dog, a Jack Russell/ f knows what, with a head like the dog in the Mask, we stopped for a pint at the Watwrmill. Me and this other lad were left outside minding the beast, safely in a full body harness and extendable lead, whilst our comrade went inside. 'Mind the dog and don't trust it' he said, to which we laughed.
On a table 20 ft away was a southern family with a retriever pleasantly enjoying the evening with a meal and a few pints.
Now this retriever made the mistake of barking at the Kraken, causing it to make a bolt for it. Fortunately it was checked and it lay, or so we thought, forlornly under the table awaiting it's 'master'. Next thing there was a flash of white and a retriever with the mutt attached to its flank, running amock. Pints and food went everywhere as we tried to catch the fecker. On closer inspection, it had slipped a full harness, adequately fastened. My mate returned and we fled....
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In reply to Dave the Rave:
Later that evening, after a few more scoops in the Kirkstone Pass Inn, we decided to camp in the car park. Amidst much jocularity, the Kraken yet again fled whilst still tethered to an extendable lead. Fearing the worst,( this being that my mate had lost his then girlfriends dog, who had a temper worse than the dog), we set off in pursuit . Luckily, amongst the baahhhing of sheep, we heard a 'clunk, clunk , clunk'. 3 bright Petzyl headlamps soon found the cause of this. Luckily, the Kraken was still attached to its extendable lead, and the plastic was bouncing on the rocks, slowing it down. The Kraken was soon, once again back in our grasp, and the sheep lived happily ever after.
Later that evening, after a few more scoops in the Kirkstone Pass Inn, we decided to camp in the car park. Amidst much jocularity, the Kraken yet again fled whilst still tethered to an extendable lead. Fearing the worst,( this being that my mate had lost his then girlfriends dog, who had a temper worse than the dog), we set off in pursuit . Luckily, amongst the baahhhing of sheep, we heard a 'clunk, clunk , clunk'. 3 bright Petzyl headlamps soon found the cause of this. Luckily, the Kraken was still attached to its extendable lead, and the plastic was bouncing on the rocks, slowing it down. The Kraken was soon, once again back in our grasp, and the sheep lived happily ever after.
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In reply to John R:
Yes, I had two interesting experiences recently. First, walking on the Coastal Path just west of Lulworth Cove. Stopped for lunch on a grassy slope 5 metres from the cliff edge in what I thought was a secure position. I was lying back enjoying the view and the sunshine when, on the back of my neck, I felt a warm wet furry sensation accompanied by the weirdest high pitched sounds that went on and on. If I had pitched forward from the sudden shock of it I could have rolled off the cliff edge of at least a 50 metres drop.
Second experience was while walking in some local woods. There is a place which I use to keep in hill climbing fitness, a steep rise of 30 metres that I walk up and down as many times that I can non-stop.
As I reached the top there was a large black dog watching me. It started to growl and look threatening so I darted behind two tree trunks that were very close together. The "owner" appeared who had no control over the dog she was walking off the lead for a friend. I shouted at her to put the dog on a lead, she called the dog, the dog took no notice. The dog then tried to circle around me and then without warning charged me. To defend myself I had to thrust both of my trekking poles in the back of its neck as it tried to get at me through the narrow gap between the two trees. The dog retreated and at that point the dog walker managed to put the lead on it. No apology received in either of these two cases. The point of all this? I have noticed that many dogs do not like trekking poles. Normally dogs react very well towards me. I have owned several in my lifetime.
Yes, I had two interesting experiences recently. First, walking on the Coastal Path just west of Lulworth Cove. Stopped for lunch on a grassy slope 5 metres from the cliff edge in what I thought was a secure position. I was lying back enjoying the view and the sunshine when, on the back of my neck, I felt a warm wet furry sensation accompanied by the weirdest high pitched sounds that went on and on. If I had pitched forward from the sudden shock of it I could have rolled off the cliff edge of at least a 50 metres drop.
Second experience was while walking in some local woods. There is a place which I use to keep in hill climbing fitness, a steep rise of 30 metres that I walk up and down as many times that I can non-stop.
As I reached the top there was a large black dog watching me. It started to growl and look threatening so I darted behind two tree trunks that were very close together. The "owner" appeared who had no control over the dog she was walking off the lead for a friend. I shouted at her to put the dog on a lead, she called the dog, the dog took no notice. The dog then tried to circle around me and then without warning charged me. To defend myself I had to thrust both of my trekking poles in the back of its neck as it tried to get at me through the narrow gap between the two trees. The dog retreated and at that point the dog walker managed to put the lead on it. No apology received in either of these two cases. The point of all this? I have noticed that many dogs do not like trekking poles. Normally dogs react very well towards me. I have owned several in my lifetime.
In reply to John R:
Today on my walk to the train station, which I've been doing daily for the last six months. I have a 2.5 year old up on my shoulders as he goes to nursery in town. We've strolling along chatting away when I hear a loud growl from behind me. Ice goes up my spine and I turn round to see a middling size attack dog stood behind me, barking and growling and darting from side to side. The owner is nowhere in sight. I freeze, surely this fe*ker's owner is somewhere? A few seconds later a whistle sounds and I see owner about 30 metres away stumbling down a slope toward me. Dog thinks better of returning for him and comes back for us with a bit more growling. Whistle sounds again and dog returns to owner.
I shout "Get that bl**dy monster on a lead!". He gives me the finger.
The toddler says "Dog barking at us, you shouted at him daddy and he went away".
I keep wondering if I over-reacted but I don't think so. With a kid on your shoulders you can't protect yourself with your arms so feel very vulnerable. Plus it was bl**dy scary and I'd just had an adrenaline dump in my veins.
Today on my walk to the train station, which I've been doing daily for the last six months. I have a 2.5 year old up on my shoulders as he goes to nursery in town. We've strolling along chatting away when I hear a loud growl from behind me. Ice goes up my spine and I turn round to see a middling size attack dog stood behind me, barking and growling and darting from side to side. The owner is nowhere in sight. I freeze, surely this fe*ker's owner is somewhere? A few seconds later a whistle sounds and I see owner about 30 metres away stumbling down a slope toward me. Dog thinks better of returning for him and comes back for us with a bit more growling. Whistle sounds again and dog returns to owner.
I shout "Get that bl**dy monster on a lead!". He gives me the finger.
The toddler says "Dog barking at us, you shouted at him daddy and he went away".
I keep wondering if I over-reacted but I don't think so. With a kid on your shoulders you can't protect yourself with your arms so feel very vulnerable. Plus it was bl**dy scary and I'd just had an adrenaline dump in my veins.
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